Why afford CINEMA 4D?

[nataz]

Well, i've learned c4d @ school as well as maya and i have to say that c4d is way much easier to work with (more intuitive) but less powerfull (as there is no real nurbs for example).

I have some friends working on 3DS and they think c4d is a good challenger but most of them wouldn't change (essentially because of nurbs (again...)). But they are really impressed by the rendering abilities of c4d; which are more complex to use in 3DS as i understood.

Beside all this i must say the price is nothing compared to what c4d can do; maya for instance doesn't do the third for almost the double in money.

In conclusion i'd say c4d is perfect to be teached 3D on because of it's versatility and simplicity. And as far as i've seen once you master one software you're not keen on changing. It's been really hard to go from c4d to Maya but now i use it for really special or precise stuff before i texture and render on c4d.

The strong points are multiples but the main one is that c4d does almost everything modelling/animation/lighting/texture/render i've never seen all this in a single and cheap package with other softwares.

[ThirdEye]

Strong points:

modularity: you buy what you need
ease of use/workflow: the best of the best
poly modeling: there are no ngons but it's extremely fast if you can survive without them, great weighting tools
thinking particles: quite complex but very very powerful
SLA: great set of procedurals, look at www.squidinc.org, everything is textured with procedurals
lighting/renderer: ultrafast, hi quality, an arsenal of lights
stability: it NEVER crashes
dimensions: 20 megs of hdd space
3D painting: you can even avoid using photoshop if you want, just use Bodypaint3D
unlimited rendering clients if you decide to buy a studio bundle
seamless integration with After fx and Photoshop
it can open lwo and lws files
the fastest OpenGL on the market
the company ALWAYS listens to the users
ultra-active development


Weak points:

no ngons
bad nurbs
CA and animation in general can be improved
no rendertree yet
dynamics can be improved
baker can be improved

[fabriciomicheli]

Thanks a lot guys. :thumbsup: I would like keep hearing opinions...

Another thing:
If you could choose a combo:
What would you choose?

for example... is a big combo C4D + MAX??? or lightwave or Maya... or what??? :applause:

[ThirdEye]

C4D + Maya/XSI/Motionbuilder

[bobtronic]

Nothing to add to ThirdEye's post.
I love most the stability (it really never crashes), the
very easy handling and the renderquality- and speed.

Bob

[JamesMK]

Add to the strong points: the almost rediculously customizable interface!

[LucentDreams]

Honestly I think maya<->C4D would be stronger then max<->C4D but really jumpng back and fourth is stil a litle difficult. One issue is import/export, with max, max doesn't have an OBJ import built in, and 3DS triangulates everything, so I find myself using DXF.

Best part of any of the three combos is if you have BP2, then you actually have C4D/BP2 partialyintegrated with your app using a brisge connection, so you select objects click a buton and viola they are in C4D.

[nataz]

And don't loose of sight some really cool apps like wingsX (which i use when i'm desesperatly need nGons...)

[tjnyc]

I can't agree about the fastest OpenGL or crashes. I had to dumb down my professional Wildcat so C4D would stop crashing and go from dual to single monitor mode for stability. XSI has by far better and faster OpenGL than all the other softwares out there. C4D is slightly better than Maya, but I can configure my card to Maya specifically and really make it scream under OGL. I contacted Support about the OGL problem and they told me to buy another card or use software shading mode which I think is a pretty lame solution. I will be getting a Quadro FX 1000, but I am so far dissapointed in Maxon USA support.

Their SDS is faster than Maya, but almost all other apps have faster SDS than Maya, when will Alias get off their ass and do something about it.

Lack of Ngon really hurts poly modeling in Maxon IMHO, whether you are doing Box modeling or detail modeling.

Dynamics is not up to snuff for production usage, really needs work.

It doesn't have interactive rendering but the renderer is fast and produces excellent quality for little of the cost. The only areas it is missing when it comes to the renderer are fast motion blur, true displacement, and a hypershade/shadetree. I believe with the next major release the renderer will get even better, especially if their arrangement continues with Cebas and their Final Render engine, which has really caught up to Brazil. Can I get an AMEN for flicker-free GI. :buttrock:

Other than those issues I really like C4D, it isn't a complete solution for me but I see alot of areas were it will fill a hole, particularly in rendering, texturing, simple fast animation via MOCCA, particles and effects. Maya is still my workhorse, been using it for a while, and will most likely still continue to use it.
Did use LW, and I don't miss it, Maya + C4D combo is a killer solution for me and it will get even better with Messiah/Motion Builder mixed in. Oh and I get my modeling work done in Mirai and Wings.

I also feel good about C4D's future, been playing with it since v7, but never really committed until recently. Maxon doesn't do small upgrades like alot of the other apps, *cough* Alias *cough*. Each release is a major leap and I believe they will continue to advance and be competitive with C4D. Hell look at BodyPaint R2, that alone was worth what I paid for Studio($1595) IMHO. I used to use Deep Paint, and I had a love-hate thing with it, and BP R2 is like the sexy and easy going Girlfriend I always wanted Deep Paint to be. :p

All in all, C4D and Maxon is a good invest for the present and the future.

[mnu]

Hi,

I agree with all said so far but I think there is another pro feature Cinema has: XPresso. There's nothing as powerful and easy to use out there. In Cinema you can setup whatever behaviour you want easily and with fun. Some sliders added to your object and animation works like a charm. Xpresso is one of the things I like most about C4D.

cheers mnu

[flingster]

stability and gui seem like minor things but they make this software when you come to look at the competition...c4d is intuitive, great documentation also helps.
R8 with BP2 is totally impressive.
if not i would say studio version if you got bucks...otherwise XL version.

do you mind telling us a bit more about what you wanna do really.
cos saying max vs maya...well in the games market you'd have to go max...but other work then your options are far wider.



tjnyc: not fast motion blur...but did you see this site
http://www.tools4d.com/ looks like he has a plug for ghosting motion you might be interested in...just a thought and slightly off topic...:shrug:

[tjnyc]

Hey flingster,

Yes, I did check out Paul's plugin extravaganza. I got my eye on a few of his plugins. ;) I can do motion blur via post, but I would prefer to do it with a 3D app and pass it out so I can fine tune it in post as opposed to doing it all in post. I use After Effects and the motion blur post affect has never been great in quality or speed, it might be different with AE 6 though. I get most of my motion blur out of Maya with the Maya renderer, and I do post work like crazy on it. I might have to put down some serious cash for Shake and a G5 or go with a Renderman or JIG solution via Maya.

I do have hope for the future if Final Render's fast motion blur, SSS and true displacement comes as new features for Advance Render though. ;)

However, I don't really use either SSS or displacement much in real work, but I use motion blur for video and broadcast work all the time.

[adeptus minor]

well I am fairly new to 3d and have just started using cinema after using and trying other 3d apps Maya, Lightwave, strata, etc etc and I have to say that I really like Cinema. Its HDRI is second to none its file import exports @#!$ great still havent gotten to far with it but I would use it over Lightwave. I am trying to supplement its weaker points with Maya and vice a versa although I am having better luck learning maya since there are so many tutorials and and learning DVD's ie (Gnomon) but I think with the help of this forum and Maxon it wont take to long. And Bodypaint 2 is hotter then a $2 pistol. One thing is you should specify what you are wanting to use it for so that people can better answer your question. I plan on using it for architecture with vectorworks and maya. Tjnyc how are you using maya with cinema I know you use wings for modeling saw the nude in repose Nice!

[flingster]

sorry to hijack this thread slightly...and again not particularly what youre looking for tjnyc but did you ever look at these shaders...translucent and shader pack...http://www.vreel-3d.com these are very useful and great fun to dabble with and i know they will really fire your imagination...have fun.

:thumbsup:


once again sorry about off topic guys...but you know what i'm like.
:shrug:

[Srek]

Originally posted by tjnyc
I can't agree about the fastest OpenGL or crashes. I had to dumb down my professional Wildcat so C4D would stop crashing and go from dual to single monitor mode for stability. XSI has by far better and faster OpenGL than all the other softwares out there. C4D is slightly better than Maya, but I can configure my card to Maya specifically and really make it scream under OGL. I contacted Support about the OGL problem and they told me to buy another card or use software shading mode which I think is a pretty lame solution. I will be getting a Quadro FX 1000, but I am so far dissapointed in Maxon USA support.

Hi,
the main problem here is that the Wildcat drivers do not support multithreading which is heavily used in CINEMA. Another problem is that they have problems with multiple Open GL views. Fixing this in CINEMA would seriously hit the speed of the viewport.
The Maxon developers are in contact with 3D Labs and i think that a solution will be found, alas not in short time.
Cheers
Srek

[tjnyc]

Srek,

Good enough explanation for me, more than I got from Maxon USA support. The Wildcat is a great card, old, but still rocks and it gives me very little problems and I can configure it to work anyway I like, but when there is a problem 3DLabs is very slow to fix it or they ignore it unless it is ILM who calls them to fix things. One big reason why I am buying NVidia professional cards from now on.

flingster,

YES! I have checked out the trans Pro and shader pack, they are on my list of things to buy. As well as the DPack plugin, wait until you see what I have planned. I hope to make people eat their words about C4D being a hobby tool when they see what I got planned.

adeptus minor

I haven't setup the pipeline yet between the two, but everything I have investigated about the possibility and some R&D tell me that they will work quite well together, using other apps like MotionBuilder, Messiah, Deep Exploration and scripting, plugins, COFFEE. I do plan on providing a bridge plugin between the two for free once I and a Maya developer get it done so more people could incorporate C4D and Maya. Imagine doing your shader in hypershade in Maya and just send it over to C4D.


regards,

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by tjnyc
I do have hope for the future if Final Render's fast motion blur, SSS and true displacement comes as new features for Advance Render though. ;)

However, I don't really use either SSS or displacement much in real work, but I use motion blur for video and broadcast work all the time.

Just curious, especially since you seem to have allot of LW experience, have you used Final Render?

Don't get me wrong, the quality in all those features is definitely there, I agree they are on par with Brazil for sure and Final toon is much nicer that brazil toon imo too. But their Fast motionblur, isn't fastmotion blur, but fast "RAYTRACED" motionblur, theres the catch, its incredibly fast for raytraced motion blur, but not nearly as fast as vector or Typical SMB, especially when Vector and Scene are used together. Advantages to raytraced though are things like the shadows and additive light and such. If I'm not mistaken they also have VMB to though

[adeptus minor]

tjnyc
[QUOTE] I do plan on providing a bridge plugin between the two for free once I and a Maya developer get it done so more people could incorporate C4D and Maya. Imagine doing your shader in hypershade in Maya and just send it over to C4D.


Pm me as soon as you do. I cant wait.

[tjnyc]

Hey Kai,

Yes, "fast" motion blur is a oxymoron, when you think motion blur, fast is not the first thing to come to mind. The benefit I believe with FR Stage-1 raytrace motion blur, is when you need to get proper reflections, correct shadowing, works with GI, caustics(even though I would not try it with radiosity and caustics on) and more importantly to get correct motion deformation. I personally would prefer to go with a multi-segment vertex motion blur solution than raytracing for most situation, but still would like to have the option to turn to true 3D motion blur.

[Srek]

Originally posted by tjnyc
Srek,

Good enough explanation for me, more than I got from Maxon USA support.


Hm, i fear i have to take the blame for this, since it should have been my job to inform them on the problems we had. Afaik they didn't know more then that it does not work currently :hmm:
Cheers
Srek

[flingster]

heh heh nice avatar srek...:thumbsup:

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.