N-GON's Support PETITION!!

[sanciok]

I'm OF course with you!!!

[Shademaster]

Hmm, personally I would like to see a faster Radiosity engine and bakable thinking particles but hey, N-gons are probable a good thing to focus on too,

Signed

[tjnyc]

NGON all the way! You got my John Hancock, just let me know where to send my official endorsement.

[ThirdEye]

i'm here :D

[ambient-whisper]

im here too... and i dont use cinema:wavey: :beer:

[Per-Anders]

so what are these n-gons i keep hearing poeple talk about?

whatever it is, cos i'm easily swayed by others.. i'm all for it, the sooner the better.

[3dg]

nGons would be great.

[BazC]

Me too!

[squidinc]

<angry rant>

yes C4D needs ngons, anyone that says differently is an idiot, I want a choice at whether I keep an object as quads or not, and I want to decide when I turn it into quads and not have to worry about idiotic random triangles everywhere, until then, c4d's modelling is second in the pile next to... well pretty much all the major packages, I know a few of major packages handle them differently, but c4d just doesn't handle them at all. and If it's just for stills, does it really matter that there are half a dozen polys with 16 or 20 sides??

</angry rant>

now I feel better :D

[ThirdEye]

don't forget a thing: if you're just using poly modeling without SDS why the **** you should care about n-sided polys in the mesh? ngons all the time!!

[sebek27]

ngons ngons ngons

[squidinc]

hell, even truespace can deal with ngons!!, let us unite BROTHERS, ONWARD TO BATTLE, tally ho

*gallops off into a sunset on the back of an extruded hexagon*

[SheepFactory]

N-Gons now please

[tjnyc]

We should do something stupid like send packages and packages of an item to represent our Ngon support like those Roswell fans did with tobasco sauce. Now what would be a good item for Ngons? :D

[Cartesius]

Hey, an upset mob hell bent on raising some trouble! Count me in, lads -- I want, ney, I CRAVE n-gons! :buttrock:

/Anders

[Mentat7]

>Knock knock
>Who's there?
>Pizza...
>Who?
>Mailman...
>What?
>Paperboy...
>Huh? Who is it?
>NGons...
>Oh! Come on in!!

>Wild screams as the landshark eats the unsuspecting apartment dweller....<

Give us our NGONS! :buttrock:

[squidinc]

and so the first meeting of the..... (drumroll please)

http://www.squidinc3d.co.uk/cgremote/ngons.gif

:D

[reddrake]

Ok... I like the NGON Liberation Army!

I too feel that NGONS would be a very nice thing!

Richard

[mimo8]

N
G
O
N
S

[Shademaster]

I wanna join the N-gon army too, but....do I have to give up my beloveth triangle then?? NOOOooo....RIP http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~quake/T.gif

[flingster]

bwahahahahaahahaha to much.

N G O N S or is it M G O N S?

come on Maxon...you know you really want to

"Whats the worst that could happen?"
"Maybe 3d for the real world?"
heh heh
:D

[manlio]

I'm with you!! NGONS! NGONS!

[chris_b]

count me in...

we have been waiting a long time for this one... and Maxon will have to make the fix sooner or later, so i say SOONER PLEASE!

[AdamT]

Let the ngon endgame begin. :buttrock:

[marcopio]

Ngon, o yea....

[dfaris]

I want my Ngon TV!

Please

[mwa]

Yes Yes Yes!
Don't wan't to turn to Wings every time I boxmodell anymore!

[JDP]

I don't post here often as I feel I don't have that much to offer but on this occassion I hope I can make a difference,Yes NGONs please.

[Cyborgguineapig]

N Gons please!!!!:scream:

If not Ngons than atleast Triangle support!!!

[CosmicBear]

agreed! gimme those ngons!!!! i never turn back to animation:master in case we get them! i promise! :D

[handige_harrie]

You got my support :thumbsup:.


Though I am in a much greater need for that "free 3D-skills module" ;)

[fxgogo]

Yes please, and a serving of nurbs tools aswell.

[modestmouse]

Hope this works!!! I'm in! OOOOOOOoooooo hows about n-gons in 8.2 petiton????

[tjnyc]

8.2 is already out. :D

It is more than obvious that C4D users want NGons. Will there an official petition, something that can be written up professionally with signatures that can be sent to Maxon?

Regards,

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by Cyborgguineapig
N Gons please!!!!:scream:

If not Ngons than atleast Triangle support!!!

What?

[Mahlikus]

N-GONS BABY! YEAH!

------

8.2 is out???

[kiwi]

I see we have made it back around to Ngons again :D



I would be really surprised if ver 9 did not have Ngons,after all we have been asking,bitching and asking again for Ngons for a long time now,and lets face it C4D has to get Ngons full stop,even if it requires a huge re write.The want for Ngons wont go away dudes at Maxon :)


Stu.

[Per-Anders]

bah n-gons... it's a passing fad, soon maya, max etc will be dropping them and coming back to the quads and tri's we know and love... :P

[MoThBall]

Viva le N-gons

[tjnyc]

Originally posted by Mahlikus

8.2 is out???

Yeah, doesn't everyone have it? I am a new Studio user and when it came it had the 8.2 update. The version I have running is V8.206 OXYGEN.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by tjnyc
Yeah, doesn't everyone have it? I am a new Studio user and when it came it had the 8.2 update. The version I have running is V8.206 OXYGEN.
It's shipping with BP2, but the patch will be available very soon.

[Iggy]

how did I get so late to the damn riot?!?! I've got my looting clothes on and I'm not going home till I've got N-gons in my bag. Smashy smashy!!

[Monty]

N-GONS, yeah!!

http://www.geocities.com/monty_cg/ngon1.jpg

[ndat]

Hell yeah to ngons :thumbsup: or at least pentagons lol... hmmm there was something I wanted more though??? oh yeah... actually ngons is the last thing on my list lol, cheers maxon for doing a great job :)

[Zendorf]

C'mon Maxon give us FBX support and n-gons and I will be a very happy chappy...and will promise to not drool at rival apps :drool:

...the Wings-Motionbuilder-C4D-AE workflow will soon be rocking my world as soon as fbx support stops being a mirage on my horizon.....n-gons support I fear will take much longer :hmm:

[Pig Nick]

Go for it!

[neods]

yes, N-gons..

[JamesMK]

I'm definitely in.

Gimme an N, gimme a.. umm... DASH, gimme a G (and so on, you get the picture). We could send an appropriate amount of cheerleader type girls to the Maxon headquarters to persuade them... It's always better to be nice than to yell a lot, I guess!

[brammelo]

Originally posted by JamesMK
We could send an appropriate amount of cheerleader type girls to the Maxon headquarters to persuade them... It's always better to be nice than to yell a lot, I guess!

Give us Cheerleaders! Oh, no, sorry - Give us N-Gons! Although ...? Perhaps ... both? Could we have both?

[squidinc]

Originally posted by brammelo
Give us Cheerleaders! Oh, no, sorry - Give us N-Gons! Although ...? Perhaps ... both? Could we have both?

actually.... yes I'd prefer cheerleaders... no.. ngons, no wait... cheerleaders

[michaeli]

I'd like to see Ngon support in C4D in the near future. :beer: :beer:

[Geespot]

Please could Cinema 4D 8.3 or 9.0 have NGons (or 8.2.5, if you really generous).
It would be really handy if you could supply some cheerleaders too, perhaps by mail order?

Although I quite understand if the latter is not possible, but it would supply your users with a very good source of reference.

[DELTAadmin]

Ngons + a usable NURBS toolset + Flickering free Radiosity engine + better post effects + prizm & bokeh effects + scene linking + more robust animation engine and a lot more + schematic view

I think Cinema copyes Houdini in much ways, please copy some other great approaches but without the downfalls of Houdini.

[squidinc]

Originally posted by DELTAadmin
Ngons + a usable NURBS toolset + Flickering free Radiosity engine + better post effects + prizm & bokeh effects + scene linking + more robust animation engine and a lot more + schematic view

I think Cinema copyes Houdini in much ways, please copy some other great approaches but without the downfalls of Houdini.

no, screw the other stuff, no distractions, just add ngons :surprised that feature request list was months ago, done that, read the thread title :D lol

[LucentDreams]

cinema doesn't copy houdini at all, why woud you say that?

First of all be realistic guys, at the earliest if C4D was to get ngons, it would be version 9, no sooner, and if it was version 9, version 9 would be a much further release then most of you would like it to be.

Usable nurbs toolset. I don't see nurbs in C4d changing much at all in the near future, maybe version 11. Not based no inside info or anything, just my own opinion, but seriously look at the direction of all the latest developmetns, nurbs hasn't changed at all since version 6, and even that was minor, and none of the other stuff changed has really been related to nurbs so I don't see that as a planned area for improvement.

Flicker Free radiosity engine, there is no such thing.

Better post effects, you mean improvements to current ones, or a better selection? Pizm and bokeh effects, by prism, I figure you mean chromatic aberation, yes I agree onthis one would be nice, bokeh effects, uhm they are available in the DOF included with AR.

Scene linking, I guess you mean file referencing, yes this would be nice, and necesary for large productions.

More Robust animation engine, well that one need specifying

[mnu]

Yes! NGONS Please, soon!

cheers mnu

[squidinc]

First of all be realistic guys, at the earliest if C4D was to get ngons, it would be version 9, no sooner, and if it was version 9, version 9 would be a much further release then most of you would like it to be.

If it radically changed the way most if not all the modelling tools worked I think it would be worth the wait. and then things like a decent fillet edges tool would be made possible.

[DELTAadmin]

.cinema doesn't copy houdini at all, why woud you say that?

Better post effects = improved post effect (more real DOF, better motion blur ...)

Flickering free radiosity render = LW, or other radiosity engines somehow are nearer to it than C4D

Houdini = just try the software , and u'll be amazed how similar they are not just on the surface, but in some terminology. I do not know wheter which one copyes the other, but it can naot be incidental

Chromatic abberation = prizm effekt
Bokeh effekt = Thinking through, u are right

Scene linking = object referencing ...

Oke i am the one who always complains, however I love cinema, and use almost exclusively it for 3d projects

[Kirl]

Ummm... N-gons please...

[pupii]

hahahahaha!
ngon liberation army cool!

http://www.meselia.hu/pupi/ngon.jpg

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by DELTAadmin
.Houdini = just try the software , and u'll be amazed how similar they are not just on the surface, but in some terminology. I do not know wheter which one copyes the other, but it can naot be incidental


Houdini for free how could one not try it. They aren't particulaily similar. One completely procedural modeling, the other very little procedural modeling and thats just the start. Terminology, hmm funny how that works, I mean being based on the same things, I mean there are technical terms for everything we use, so to say any apps are similar because of terminology, well they are all using the same things. Catmull Clark, well msot the major apps use this for their subdivision algorithm, MonteCarlo Raytracing and all the terms that come with it, Stochastic samples and such, all because they are based on the same technology.

[squidinc]

Originally posted by pupii
hahahahaha!
ngon liberation army cool!


lol, nice one pupii :D
send a few hundred to maxon, hehe

[bobtronic]

I use Wings3D for many modeling tasks. I like how it
handles n-gons. Therefore I would also like to use
n-gons in C4D.

Bob

[mimo8]

stupid n-gon question:

does LW have it?

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by mimo8
stupid n-gon question:

does LW have it?

Yes but with a limitation. You can use them for modeling but you can't subpatch them, it means you can use them during the process but you cannot have em in the final mesh (if you wanna use subdivision surfaces)

[pupii]

first members
Im idiot!

http://www.meselia.hu/pupi/ngon2.jpg

[phoenixart]

Of course my vote for N-Gon's too -

[rirad]

I have a question about this N-Gon support. I realize n_gons is Cinema's latest buzz word but does it really help us. I mean the reason you want to get rid of tiangles is they do not behave will in hyperNURBS objects. But if you have a n-gon of five points, why wouldn't that give the same results in a hypernurbs objects than a quad and a tri.
For the workflow is can be nice but you can always hide edges.
Does N-Gons really work in a hyperNURBS object?

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by pupii
first members
Im idiot!

http://www.meselia.hu/pupi/ngon2.jpg


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA

[squidinc]

Originally posted by rirad
I have a question about this N-Gon support. I realize n_gons is Cinema's latest buzz word but does it really help us. I mean the reason you want to get rid of tiangles is they do not behave will in hyperNURBS objects. But if you have a n-gon of five points, why wouldn't that give the same results in a hypernurbs objects than a quad and a tri.
For the workflow is can be nice but you can always hide edges.
Does N-Gons really work in a hyperNURBS object?

it mean that you can model without worrying about c4d generating triangles all over the place, then you can decide when to convert the model to quads or not, having ngons doesn't just benefit box modelling with hypernurbs, look at the mess c4d makes when extruding text or any spline object with more than 4 sides, having ngons would also mean a lot of modelling tools would work far more efficiently, and more tools like fillet edges would be made possible

[squidinc]

Originally posted by pupii
first members
Im idiot!



awesome :thumbsup:

perfect ngon marketing material :applause:

[prayas]

Ok pupii this one made it. :))))))))))))))))))))))

Give me NGONS now or.. .. .. ..

you all came up with this @ a point where i nearly got my hands on modeling good meshes without causing any tri's in it. :cry:

P..:

[Cartesius]

Originally posted by pupii
first members
Im idiot!

http://www.meselia.hu/pupi/ngon2.jpg

Bleeding brilliant! I laughed so much my professor came in to see what was going on! :thumbsup:

/Anders

[astrofish]

You should submit that to the Maxon gallery...

Cheers - Steve

[nataz]

Maxon; give us our daily ngons ! :buttrock:

[mimo8]

thnx puppi for such terrifiyng suport.
:thumbsup:

must be a strong argument for maxon to see most of their advertisement-avatars come out on strike

[pupii]

Squid has glory. I am just finished!

pupi

[prodag]

NGONS.....NGONS.....NGONS.... Where is my NGONS?:wise:

[AdamT]

Too funny Pupii!!! :thumbsup:

Oh yeah ... ngons ngons ngons.

[nimba]

HAHAH N-GON liberation army oh YA!

great support all keep it up. soon the voice of the voiceless will be heard!

maybe we need a website for this. like c4dimprovements.org or c4dvoice or something like that. that could help make the software HUGE! im thinking about a c4d community site... with everything!

just an interesting thought

keep it up!

N-GONS for ALL!

[marcom]

NGONS NOW!

[MJV]

Quick, someone alert Darth Shader that the n-gonians are threatening the empire!

[sad]

i´m fighting with you guys!:wavey:

[mnu]

Hey sad,

wusste gar nicht, dass Du in München bist. Bin auch in München :-)

cheers mnu

[brammelo]

I always wonder what Srek thinks when he sees this. Would he ever consider turning against his own? Perhaps we can convince him this time - Srek: vote for n-gons. You want it as much as we do!

(same for other Maxon personnel, of course)

;)

[Peter C.]

LoL pupii

Im with you all, N-GONS!!! :applause:

[That Adrian Guy]

Pupii, your existance makes me happy = )

You think we would get a response from Maxon PR by now ( ? ) I wonder what's going on. (Time for a contingency meeting :)

I'm with squid though... n-gons would be such a huge jump, that it would be worth the wait. Not that I can ever complain... ever...

but if maxon were to solve the n-gon "problem", they would get rid of the number one issue that many other 3D users have with c4d.

[Brucie Rosch]

ngons? count me.

hey, pupii, great stuff, but where's Circus Flea?

[ODoul]

I use the LOL very infrequently because, well, I'm just not a happy person ;) but Puppi, I was rolling on the floor, that's bloody brilliant. Being new to this wonderful world of 3D, I never realized the importance of the n-gon but I have been enlightened and now understand the evil of the triangle, as shown in my head wire WIP. N-gons now! Join the revolution! -- 3d_e

[An Erased One]

Ngons? Sure, I'll take 7, and some of that cheese over there...

"To the n-gons, to the n-gons."

[squidinc]

so to recap on what's happening so far in the show, for any maxon employees that may be lurking
7 pages, and 90 responses later
this lot

nimba
sanciok
Shademaster
tjnyc
ThirdEye_01
ambient-whisper
mdme_sadie
3dg
BazC
squidinc
sebek27
Sheep Factory
Cartesius
Mentat7
reddrake
mimo8
flingster
manlio
chris_b
AdamT
marcopio
dfaris
mwa
JDP
Cyborgguineapig
CosmicBear
handige_harrie
fxgogo
modestmouse
Kaiskai
Mahlikus
kiwi
MoThBall
Iggy
Monty
ndat
Zendorf
Pig Nick
neods
JamesMK
brammelo
michaeli
Geespot
DELTAadmin
mnu
Kirl
pupii
bobtronic
phoenixart
prayas
nataz
prodag
marcom
xeno
kotayus
sad
Peter C.
That Adrian Guy
Brucie Rosch
3D_Explorer
An Erased One
spearhead
C4Dan
Eklettica
Desdinova
Brent Turbo
Phasmatis
Byla
tai
artemesia66


wants ngons, "gentlemen, the screwballs have spoken" :D

[xeno]

dont forget me!!! i also want them!

NGONS forever!!:buttrock:

i (WE) want them now!:wip:

[Kotayus]

Squid n pupii, brilliant!

Private Kotayus! Reporting for duty SIR!

You need the protection of the NLA, if you dont join you will be killed by triangles! Think about it...

[Peter C.]

ehem....missing someone squidinc? :deal:

[nimba]

Reporting for the NLA Sire!

We shall emerge from the poly wars in glory!

[squidinc]

Originally posted by Peter C.
ehem....missing someone squidinc? :deal:

no, don't think so, why? :D

[Spearhead]

ngons! gimme gimme gimme!

[C4Dan]

and me boss :buttrock:

[ThirdEye]

Add Eklettica too, he asked them in the other thread ;)

[Desdinova]

Add my name on to the list as well... :deal:

N-Gons................. Somthing that is much needed.... NOW!

[sanfranguy]

N-Gons are for girly men.

[ThirdEye]

i'm a girly man then

[Brent Turbo]

nGons NOW!

And when you drop that nGon object into a hyperNurbs node? A smooth hyperNurbs mesh, with NO objections from Cinema!

Nothing less.

[Phasmatis]

Count me in! :thumbsup:

[Byla]

nGons indeed...

+ node based structure
+ node based material editor
+ better rigging.

[ndat]

so even with ngons of an odd number of sides don’t do what triangles do to your mesh?

Are ngons good for animation or bad?

We should all learn how to program for cinema 4d then we wouldn’t have to bitch to Maxon every time we need something. We have to stand up and say yes I can, no longer will I let Maxon drag me around by weak appendages. I will pave my own path in the world of CG.

[tai]

nGons!

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by Byla
nGons indeed...

+ node based structure


C4D is already node based, look at Xpresso.

[BazC]

ndat - How n-gons render depends largely on the renderer you're using, but that isn't the point. Most modellers end up with a mesh that's made up of quads and/or tris. N-gons are used while you're developing the mesh. They give you the freedom to place edges wherever you want them without the app adding a load of tris that you then have to remove. Once your edge loops/topology is established you can then work on removing n-gons and poles. - Baz

[squidinc]

anyone from maxon going to comment?, or are we wasting our time? :D

pleeeeeeease!! :p

[Srek]

Originally posted by squidinc
anyone from maxon going to comment?,
Nice Petition :)


or are we wasting our time? :D

pleeeeeeease!! :p
Don't know yet :shrug:

Cheers
Srek

[pupii]

Originally posted by Srek
Nice Petition :)



hahaha! nice answer:)

[AdamT]

I'm sure it's that last thing Maxon's programmers want to deal with, but the longer we wait the harder it's going to be--and the more other stuff it's going to break. NGONS!!

[JamesMK]

On the other hand... just for the past few days or so... ahem... I've sort of got used to not having n-gons... funny thing, eh?

[nimba]

Maxon: "NGONS for all!"
Crowd: "Boooooooo"

Maxon: "NGONS for none!"
Crowd: "Boooooooo"

Maxon: "Hmm.... NGONS for some, miniature American flags for the rest of us!"
Crowd: "YEAAAH"

[neilyb]

Yes it would be nice to model something without having to imediately repair it after a cut is made (how often have I tried to follow those Ambient Whisper videos where he just cuts away!).

I do believe though that Maxon will get around to this as and when they want to, Cinema simply for realising that most users wouldn't swap simply for this reason!? Besides, it'll make you a better modeller!

[squidinc]

Besides, it'll make you a better modeller!

not if the generation of triangles makes some modelling operations almost impossible, or so messy you wonder why you even bothered

[tjnyc]

I do believe though that Maxon will get around to this as and when they want to, Cinema simply for realising that most users wouldn't swap simply for this reason!? Besides, it'll make you a better modeller!


That is the type of attitude that Newtek has taken in regard to many of the holes in LW, which is one of the reasons I and many former LW users have left LW and went to Maya. LW users have been screaming for Ngons for a long time, and they have yet to get it in LW, I hope that this is not how Maxon will do things.

Becoming a better modeller has nothing to do with or without Ngons, but having to fight with your tool and work around serious limitation doesn't help you get your work done or keep your sanity. :)

[artemesia66]

ngons. put me on the list.

+ shader trees.

pretty please.

[Mentat7]

How 'bout them NGons already??

[adeptus minor]

N-Gons are soooo sexy :drool:
any beta testers out there? I think it would be most appropriate to send maxon a link to this thread.
HEAR OUR CRY
N-GONS!!!!!!


payed for by NLA commision

[Scott M C4D]

Yeah.
N-GONS would be cool.

N-Gons was highlighted as a negative omission in this months Digital Creative Arts review (UK magazine)

[adeptus minor]

say whaat!!

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by adeptus minor
N-Gons are soooo sexy :drool:
any beta testers out there? I think it would be most appropriate to send maxon a link to this thread.
HEAR OUR CRY
N-GONS!!!!!!


payed for by NLA commision

hmm lets see, well one maxon employee posted here on his own time already, I'm sure a few others have read it since they frequent cgtalk, and I made sure all other beta testers had a good chuckle too. I mena pupii's image is hilarious.

Don't worry, anything big that happens here is seen by maxon not much goes through cgtalk's C4D forum without one of them seeing, I mean of of the mods is a maxon representative too.

(hope those using pirated versions realize what I'm saying too)

[Cartesius]

Originally posted by Kaiskai
(hope those using pirated versions realize what I'm saying too)

Probably not, but one can always hope.

/Anders

[jikesun]

NGONS NOW!

[pixel4d]

Well, Maxon should have thought about n-gons before they finalized the version 8. How can a company design a knife and subdivision tool without allowing people to do exactly what they want. A tool should always be designed for the artist, not the programmer. Just as you would build an airplane for the pilot, not the engineers or designers. When you knife a polygon, it should cut exactly where and how the user wants it, not the way Maxon's programmers want it. It should enable a user to add points on the edge line and connect those points with a line. The subdivide tool too should allow people to subdivide into certain number of columns and rows. Who cares about the triangles, and why the heck did Maxon even include in it after cutting. Something simple like that Maxon should have thought about it. Also the company needs to have an artist to test it to see if it user friendly to the artists, and not the programmer. Well, by the time Maxon finally has n-gons and some really useful improvements, I might even lose interests in supporting the company for future versions of Cinema 4D.

[Srek]

Originally posted by pixel4d
Well, Maxon should have thought about n-gons before they finalized the version 8. How can a company design a knife and subdivision tool without allowing people to do exactly what they want. A tool should always be designed for the artist, not the programmer. Just as you would build an airplane for the pilot, not the engineers or designers. When you knife a polygon, it should cut exactly where and how the user wants it, not the way Maxon's programmers want it. It should enable a user to add points on the edge line and connect those points with a line. The subdivide tool too should allow people to subdivide into certain number of columns and rows. Who cares about the triangles, and why the heck did Maxon even include in it after cutting. Something simple like that Maxon should have thought about it. Also the company needs to have an artist to test it to see if it user friendly to the artists, and not the programmer. Well, by the time Maxon finally has n-gons and some really useful improvements, I might even lose interests in supporting the company for future versions of Cinema 4D.
Hi,
you already got an answer on how "simple" the implementation of n-gons is.
How do you know that programmers are testing CINEMA? In fact there are several of the best CINEMA artists on the Beta team to make sure that not only the product does what it is intended to do, but in a way that is realy usefull. So far i think we don't have a bad trackrecord regarding workflow and usability.

Regards
Björn (Maxon QA)

[JamesMK]

Well, by the time Maxon finally has n-gons and some really useful improvements, I might even lose interests in supporting the company for future versions of Cinema 4D.
Although I do support this call for n-gons, I don't agree with the above idea that the lack thereof breaks the software.

Because it doesn't.

N-gons are most of the time just an intermediate stage. It basically just allows you to procrastinate the clean-up of your mesh. So, sure, it makes some operations appear easier to perform, but they still spawn problems. Not in the form of tris, but other faces that need to be dealt with. A pentagon for instance will subdivide as a tri and a quad if you don't clean it up. So, just because n-gons give you the option not to 'see that tri', that doesn't mean that it still isn't there anyway.

What I'm trying to say is that if you feel that C4D is unusable for modeling because of the lack of n-gons, then I think you've got some general problems with your modeling skills.

[videodv]

Yep me to.

[brammelo]

Originally posted by pixel4d
Well, Maxon should have thought about n-gons before they finalized the version 8. How can a company design a knife and subdivision tool without allowing people to do exactly what they want. A tool should always be designed for the artist, not the programmer. Just as you would build an airplane for the pilot, not the engineers or designers. When you knife a polygon, it should cut exactly where and how the user wants it, not the way Maxon's programmers want it. It should enable a user to add points on the edge line and connect those points with a line. The subdivide tool too should allow people to subdivide into certain number of columns and rows. Who cares about the triangles, and why the heck did Maxon even include in it after cutting. Something simple like that Maxon should have thought about it. Also the company needs to have an artist to test it to see if it user friendly to the artists, and not the programmer. Well, by the time Maxon finally has n-gons and some really useful improvements, I might even lose interests in supporting the company for future versions of Cinema 4D.



Pixel, get real. What you want is only possible in dreams or in an ideal world. It's like complaining about global heating after consuming fosil fuel like crazy for the last century, and blaming the guys that started it. Doesn't work that way.

Keep also in mind that Maxon is still one of the smaller companies. They don't have the ressources (yet) that Alias or Discreet have. Their programmers are amongst the best in their field. So are their Beta-testers. They're constantly pulling rabbits out of their hats. Have you ever modeled in Max or Maya? Give it a try. I know Maya has N-gons, and I sometimes switch to it for modeling, but there are tons of stuff that can go wrong when modeling in Maya... even if you have n-gons. There is a huge difference between having a feature on your feature list, and implementing it correctly AND user friendly. I think Maxon's scores are very high in this field. Even if they don't have n-gons yet.

And if n-gons is really the only thing lacking in your life, there are always dedicated modelers that can be used in conjunction with C4D.

I mean no offence, but C4D is a great tool, as are the other tools in the business. And they all have their flaws. If n-gons would be your only reason to switch, I suggest you have a go with the other software solutions before making up your mind. It might remind you of the good things in C4D.



Kind regards,
BaRa

[ambient-whisper]

Originally posted by brammelo
Keep also in mind that Maxon is still one of the smaller companies.


not a very good excuse. you want a reason?
wings 3d: made by 1 guy, has ngons.
Clay3d: made by one guy, has ngons.( guy is very young too )
Mirai: was made by only a few guys too. it too had Ngons way way back.
in which case, i dont see why a seasoned programmer would have any problems at all adding them. ofcourse since the functionality hasnt been there since the beginning, they are now forced to recode a large part of the modelling module. IMO, a strong base should be established first, make tools second.

and JamesMK: saying hes got problems with modelling is a bit of a low blow. in many regards he is right, maxon shouldnt have overlooked Ngons right from the get go. if a person likes to put detail where he needs, and his workflow revolves around it ( like myself ) then not having this functionality is obviousely going to hurt how he models, and thats going to affect the quality of the models he turns out.

[brammelo]

Ambient-whisper: it's a very good reason. Please remind me of how wings and clay compare to C4D in the field of rendering, animation, particle management, ...?

If you focus your ressources on one part, then of course you have wonderfull results. That's why insiders feel that Modo is such a great modeler. But three experienced guys (former Lightwave and Co.) spent two years on it, getting it the way they wanted. And there's no animation, no particles, no material system, no scripting environment, no rendering, etc.

Compare apples to apples, please.

Cheers,
BaRa

[ambient-whisper]

what does that have to do with it ;) they got more than one programmer no? and modelling is a fairly important part of 3d i think.

and like i said. not a good excuse how many programmers you have. if they implemented polygons at the beginning, they might as well have made them more flexible at the same time.

[ThirdEye]

Martin: Maxon IS still a small company, they can't add anything they want. You're right about ngons, i'm their 1st bitcher about them, i've started to complain from my 1st beta day and i won't stop till they add em to the core. But priorities are priorities. If i had to choose between a nodebased rendertree and ngons now i'd be very hesitant. I do want ngons but hey, i can still model without them or using Wings/Clay/Modo/Silo and taking the mesh back to C4D. What about for example the rendertree? It allows you to make complex materials which the normal material editor doesn't still allow to make. What would you choose? I don't really know.

BaRa: Rendering in C4D has always been great and now you perfectly know it's received the help of Cebas. Particles: same thing, Thinking Particles is a Cebas product ported from Maxon to C4D, the standard particle system has always been the same. Animation: good start with Mocca but there's still a lot of work to do. Look at what Softimage, Alias and discreet can offer. What i'm trying to say is that having just a few programmers isn't an excuse at all. If they really want to compete with those companies they have to put in the program all the nice stuff the competitors already have. Ngons are the 1st thing to add, modeling in C4D can be a nightmare, especially if you're a noob. And without a model what will you texture, illuminate or animate? Nothing.

[brammelo]

Ambient-Whisper: It's of course a very important part. But Maxon started out as a hobby tool (sorry Srek and others @Maxon, but that's how people perceived it), and grew out to be what it is today. The switch from version 7 to version 8 implied a lot of new things. Just count the modules ...

Now suppose that from 7 to 8 they introduced n-gons. That would have meant that all the other sweet stuff would not have seen the light of day. Now what would you have choosen? I know that I would have choosen the current path.

Modeling is important, but texturing is equally important, and so is lighting, animation, CA, particles, and so on. All of these need to be improved, refined and so on. They can't do it all at once, because, and you might not believe that, they do not have the programmers to do all of this in one generation cycle. They can't add NURBS, n-gons, sub-pixel displacement, node-base shader system, reconfiguring SLA to fit in with the other nodes, MEL-like behavior in XPresso, and better MOCCA tools in one go. There's always more on the wish list than can be done.

And oh yes, there's also BodyPaint to take care of.

So yes, I want n-gons. . And yes, I understand that the grass is always greener on the other side. But that doesn't mean I'm gonna switch pastures, because I also understand why n-gons are not in the package - yet.

Cheers,
BaRa

[brammelo]

Hi Thirdeye, I'm aware of the sources used for TP and the like. But getting a library is not the same is making it fit your application. You're on the beta-list, so you know that they're actually doing all they can - or at least doing the best they can. You also know that, the "bigger" the application gets, the more difficult it becomes to implement a re-write of the core. A lot of applications went through a rewrite since they first appeared on the market, and C4D has already been rewritten at least once. I do agree that a rewrite is needed between now and one of the next versions. But it's as you said: there are a lot of things that need to be implemented. You have to choose.

But hey, we're on the same team, no need to argue :)

Back on track: We Want N-Gons. Where Are The N-Gons!?

;)

Ciao,
BaRa

[bolek]

anyone here use Silo ?? how is it ? stable ? also, how much will Modo cost ? it looks great..

[flingster]

one of the things you guys also need to bare in mind is very often this kind of software is made up of core elements from other software companies...not sure about maxons route for things like this...but as mentioned thinking particles being inherited from cebas...then if they remain on the same development track they have to wait for implementation from the core app....this is often the case with renderers...and for modelling components..like surfaces. maxons programmers are capable but very often is a case of why re-invent the wheel...or its original development route...when people talk about a core re-write this may mean modifying/changing the original software.:shrug:

[Per-Anders]

Originally posted by bolek
anyone here use Silo ?? how is it ? stable ? also, how much will Modo cost ? it looks great..

[SHAMELESS PLUG}
maybe you should wait and get Mesh Surgery instead

take a look at this thread for videos etc... all built right into cinema
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=83921


should be out in the not too distant future
[/SHAMELESS PLUG]

[ThirdEye]

Originally posted by bolek
anyone here use Silo ?? how is it ? stable ? also, how much will Modo cost ? it looks great..


Silo is cheap and it's got a great OGL support, as fast as C4D's i'd say... I don't like the way it's been designed, it reminds me of Maya but hey it doesn't cost that much. Modo seems cool but 700USD are way too much for a modeler imho.

[JamesMK]

Originally posted by ambient-whisper
and JamesMK: saying hes got problems with modelling is a bit of a low blow. in many regards he is right, maxon shouldnt have overlooked Ngons right from the get go. if a person likes to put detail where he needs, and his workflow revolves around it ( like myself ) then not having this functionality is obviousely going to hurt how he models, and thats going to affect the quality of the models he turns out.
Sure thing! I want those n-gons too you know, but it was the whining attitude that sort of made me go in the low-blow direction... I used Wings a lot before, so I know all about the advantages with n-gons.

Furthermore, n-gons per se isn't a huge programming problem. But, adding it afterwards in an application where all the core tools are made for 3/4 vert faces is definitely a bit trickier.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by JamesMK
Furthermore, n-gons per se isn't a huge programming problem. But, adding it afterwards in an application where all the core tools are made for 3/4 vert faces is definitely a bit trickier.
Yes, that's the key. Ambient Wisper points to a number of programs that have had ngons from day one. It's quite another thing to add them to a fully-developed program without breaking everything else. For example, how happy would everyone be if Maxon introduced R9 with ngons and now none of your plugins will work?

But I still want'em. :)

[JIII]

Well maxon just can't ignore its plugin devlopers. I mean they would not have the same level of sales if say, Paul or per-anders all of a sudden had no income because of a sudden change in N-gons. Not to mention programs like real flow and other plugins that have actual companies behind them. I don't think maxon would leave us in the cold without plugins. Well its just my personal opinion but what do I know? well nothing.

Anyway WE WANT NGONS.

[ThirdEye]

Plugin developers don't sell their stuff forever. I guess most of the sales of a plugin happen in the 1st month from the release of the plugin. If Maxon decides to add ngons support to C4D then plugin developers will have something else to work on. How many people complained about HyperNurbs weighting? None I think... But there was SuperNurbs, why don't you use it? ;)

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