Church 'lobby' - crit needed

[noouch]

Do you not have area shadows? How about ambient occlusion?

Anyways, the scene looks pretty flat. Maybe you can bring some depth in to your scene by playing with the light's falloff ranges (linear workflow is your best friend in this case if your version of Cinema supports it!) and introducing a bit of light-dark play in to the scene instead of just a uniformly lit room.

[nadmai]

Please don't be offended, but I would forget lighting until you have sorted the textures. The carpet texture has visible jpeg compression artifacts and a tiling line. You should run a high pass filter over it at least to retain the pattern whilst hopefully losing the colour blocking (I guess it could be that you have posted a low res jpg here but I can only comment on what I'm seeing). It is also the wrong scale for the scene.

Your wall textures and wood beams are also quite poor, which there's little excuse for when there are wealth of wood pattern textures on the net e.g. cgtextures.com. My point is that great lighting will not help bad textures much other than to hide them.

As has been said the lighting is flat. As a test you should open the curtains at home and turn all artificial light off. Look at the shadow patterns and colours, then add artificial light and note the differences.

I would set a large area light up the size of the windows with ray traced shadows and a very slight blue cast. Set a linear decay and play with the distance of the light from the windows and intensity so there is no blow out but also a reasonable amount of light right into the room. Get that balanced then start adding a series of small spotlights with quadratic decay and a more yellow colour (if you're looking for accuracy, if you're looking for aesthetic just go with whatever colour you think looks good). The raytraced shadows on these should be a small area giving more defined shadows.

Hope this helps.

[jtvergarav]

when you light a scene I'd suggest you first catch up the light by using a generic material for every object, then you try materials and last you put the old people.

not sure how c4d works, but you should be able to add an ambient occlusion node to your generic shader. Use that in the ambient tab of a shader. Then you do the same for every material you create

[grstovell]

"the old people" ... :D
I had to smile at that one. I really need to find photos of some of our young members and children. Thanks for the observation.

Nadmal: No offense here. This is exactly what I was looking for. I'll go back and work on textures. The model - while it looks simple, is really a polygonal mess. The file came in with all the faces separate.. so the actual 'wall' group is really over 3500 individual surfaces. Selecting the right model is proving to be a nightmare. I may also re-create the model using this one as a base.
Thanks for the textures link. I'll start working on those textures.

Noouch, Yeminiuis: I've been out of the loop for too long. Ambient Occlusion? Time for me to dig out that manual. Thanks.

I'll post a revised in a day or two. Thanks for the good crit and eyes. More soon

-g

[sundialsvc4]

Nevermind the technical mumbo-jumbo, Reverend ... since your (generally very good!) picture has people in it, those people need to be the first and foremost object of your picture-refinement attentions. If I can see someone, I want to know what they're doing. Given a choice between seeing "them" clearly and seeing their surrounds, I want to see "them."

Let the shot, therefore, subtly accent each person. Put a subtle key-light on each one of them and let them be doing something interesting. Portray each of them in a flattering, pleasing way. (But don't "draw my eye" to the fact that you consciously did that!) If you can accomplish that, "many sins shall be forgiven."

Basically, your purpose with this shot is essentially "photographic," and the rules of good studio photography prevail. But also, commercial photography: this image has "a stated purpose." Does it accomplish this purpose satisfactorily now? Yes. It doesn't really matter to the viewer that this real-to-them setting does not physically exist in the real world. It likewise does not matter to them by what technology the picture was created, nor if the picture is 'perfect' (whatever the heck that might mean...). To say these things is not a "cop-out."

You have definitely achieved a very satisfactory image here. Don't chase the chimera of "perfection" too aggressively. What you have now is a worthy accomplishment and your progress from this point is quite entitled to be "tweaks." If you feel like tearing the whole thing apart and starting over (and tell me, who doesn't?) ... resist. "See that it is Good."

[grstovell]

hey Sundial!

Man! Had you emailed a few hours ago, I would've definitely listened. Now... and because I'm my worst critic... I started anew.

The model as I said, was a mess... so I went ahead and "re-modeled" it from scratch based on theirs. The result took me from 1.6 mill polygons to a mere 836 (excluding furniture obviously). The scene now renders blazingly fast! Needless to say, I'm happy.

The purpose of this is twofold. First, to create a few hi-res images for our newsletter. Second, to create a series of narrated walk-throughs for video. Having people on the actual video will be very difficult (too much work with alpha channels) - so that one will be the building alone. In either case - a printed image (especially if we end up making posters) will show all the mistakes... and an animation without people will really let everyone see the building... and therefore the mistakes. Catch 22 here.

So... here's the model with a light experiment. Not done by any means... but I'm ready for bed.
It has an area light with soft shadows the size of the window. Slight blue tint. lineal falloff
6 small 'yellowish' spots with inverse square falloff - yellow tint - pointing almost straight down - soft shadows with low buffer
same small spot array rotated 180 to point up to the ceiling
another area light in front of the interior stained glass windows - pretty bright - white - no shadows

so far... that's it. Still too many dark places.

Nadmal - is this the more or less the direction you were hinting? One question. Since I don't have GI, Radiosity, Caustics, or Ambient Occlusion capabilities (I looked... old version) would it make more sense to create an array of omi lights inside with area shadows to (dimly) light it uniformly...then add the spots to highlight areas? What do you think?

Nevermind the carpet texture. That one is slapped on and tiled just to see how it would look on the light. I'll fix it later.


Thanks for the crit. Keep it coming.

-g

http://web.me.com/grstovell/test4web2.jpg

[grstovell]

update.

Still a little dark - especially the wall and ceiling above the wall of windows...
and the inside / reception area is not lit yet.
Played a little with textures (from GCTextures.com - thanks for the link!)

Other than that - what do you think? Better?
Crit away!


http://web.me.com/grstovell/test4web3.jpg

[sundialsvc4]

I'll bet the architect would have put in some "practical lights," say spotlights along that supporting beam, just to give interesting lighting around those places where those comfy chairs sit. (And they would very consciously avoid "dark spots" like the chairs in the back.)

Light up those comfy chairs appealingly, and put people back into them. Every space is built to be used. The details you need now are "that lived-in look."

But... as an architectural rendering, it is basically good now.

[Kev3D]

This is looking a lot better then before.

Is that supposed to be daylight coming in through the window? If so it should be a LOT brighter and higher.

Also, try and see if you can make the edges of those beams less black. Can you do blurry reflections? If so, see if you can apply them to the wooden objects.

[grstovell]

Thanks Morlankey and Sundial

I did a little more work with light - not much though. I'll get to do some more work on this Sunday - Monday nights.

In the meantime, I made the sun brighter and placed it a lot earlier in the day =) I did turn up the shadow buffer for the sunlight - I don't like the harsh shadows though... and now I have a light spill close to the ceiling beams.

Also, the back of the room is way too dark. I have to work on those lights as well.

Next will be to finish it with a little 'live in' feel models, people, and start animating.
The good news is that the model is still very lean. This one renders in under 2.5 mins and it has over 20 lights.

-g

http://web.me.com/grstovell/test4web4.jpg

[nadmai]

Hi, it's great to see a positive response to feedback. I think the textures are looking a lot better and I'm glad to hear you took the time to optimize the geometry. What shaders are you using? Do these shaders have a specular component?

Regarding your current lighting, you're on the right track - however I think you are using a direct sunlight i.e. one light source that casts a parallel light. The thing is during most of the day there is probably very little direct sunlight entering a room (obviously taking the orientation of the room into account). Most of the light is provided by the outside acting as a large light reflector (to make a photography analogy). This is why i would recommend area based lights, the same size or larger than the windows themselves the render time will be higher but the shadeows will have the softer look. It will also be the strongest light source in the environment, turning spots on inside when there is bright exterior light will do little more than tint the room. I found this tutorial after a quick google, it's on character lighting but it shows what area lights do http://www.ehow.com/video_4444683_using-area-light-effect-cinema.html

Finally since you do not have a gi solution you have to create your own bounce lights again i suggest area lights, placed on the floor and unlinked from the floor and wall geometry (it should only shine on the thing it is directly aimed at, or you will start having difficultly balancing overall illumination. The intensity should be lower and perhaps a slight tint of the environment.

[grstovell]

Hi Nadmai. Thanks for the feedback again. I'm all for it - keep it coming.

I do have the shaders with a very slight specular highlight. I may need to crank it up a bit.

As for the lights - I think it's out of control the way it is right now. I'm having a hard time keeping track of all the lights. So far I have the sun, which is a large area light with soft shadows (but with a high buffer, which creates too harsh shadows in my opinion) - I'll play with it more to soften it. I also have an array of up and down spots all througout the room, but they generate too dark corners, which I'm lighting separately with more spots... which creates a mess of lights to keep track of.
I may leave that light array aside for a while and see how the whole thing looks like with only the light coming in from the window (area with soft shadows) and a few area bounce lights close to the floor. If I were to light the room with area lights that exclude the carpet... what do I light the carpet with? Area lights with shadows coming down from ceiling, that also exclude the ceiling... or wide soft spots like I have now?
I'll try playing with it tomorrow night and will post another version.

In the meantime, don't be shy about feedback. I still have about 20 days to get the walkthrough done... so I'm not in panic mode... yet =)

-g

[nadmai]

strip out the spot lights or hide them. Give us renders of each of the remaining lights on its own, show us how each light affects the scene individually . Then we can suggest how each particular one needs tuning or where others need to be added. I think the spots are most likely unnecessary for the look you are trying to achieve.

[grstovell]

I've said it before and I mean it. This is really a great forum! Thanks for the focused help.

Here's what we have so far...

Sunlight - an area light outside with 140% intensity, light blue tint, low buffer soft shadows


http://web.me.com/grstovell/lights1by1-sun.jpg


Sunlight + 4 soft spots pointing straight down with a cone of 165 degrees - light yellow tint - soft shadows with a high buffer. You can tell where the 4 spots are... just lighting the carpet and a little on the walls.


http://web.me.com/grstovell/lights1by1-4spots.jpg


Sunlight, 4 spots + 1 large area light parallel with the carpet floating in the middle of the room. No fallout. No shadows.


http://web.me.com/grstovell/lights1by1-area.jpg

All the previous ones + receptions and inside hallways lights.



http://web.me.com/grstovell/lights1by1-reception.jpg



What do you think? Too flat?

[nadmai]

Ah sorry I left you hanging there, girlfriend came to visit and turned up mid-way through a reply I was writing to this, computer was turned off etc. Anyway, I think the lighting is looking pretty good. You're right that is possibly a tad flat but it depends on the purpose to how important that is.

Anyway, I knocked up a very quick example in maya just to illustrate a point I was trying to make earlier. This isn't intended to say what i've done is correct or better, just to give some other ideas to think about.

When you have a window, there is the direct light coming through giving you your big lit area on the floor but you also have the reflected light which creates pools of light around the edges of windows and on walls close by as seen in this image on the ceiling - you can see on the side that is not directly lit with a green cast.

http://www.leedskent.org.uk/images/hall/village_hall_01.jpg

This light and the bounced light from the main light source will create much softer shadows inside the room. In effect during the day - the spots shouldn't need to be on, since between the frosted glass on the wall and the windows at the bottom there is sufficient reflected light to light the interior. THe only problem with the spots in your current scene is that you could see the hotspot of each one on the floor.

In the image i've made there are 14 lights - which could probably be optimised, I was just bashing them in really. Each window has one area light pointing directly into the room with quadratic falloff. Then facing it just inside the room is an area light the same size again with quadratic falloff but a lower intensity - this gets the light pools around the window's edge.

Outside further out is a much larger area light with raytraced shadows and linear falloff, this gets the soft shadows on the beams and pushes the light levels a bit further into the room.

The other lights are all here then to be the bounce lights in the room, i kept it simple, just making large area lights pointing at the surface i wanted to illuminate, and setting their intensities to low values (you could i guess also render the effect of each light separately and add them on top of each other in photoshop) and just try and balance them, looking at similar reference where possible (the roof space should be a bit darker i think in my example but it would mean having to detach the wall, floor and ceiling geometry and link the light specifically to the ceiling). They are also lights on the ceiling for the light being reflected back and one on the side wall so that the side of the beams isn't too dark.

Anyway hope this is useful.

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