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View Full Version : SILO demo good to go


Peter Reynolds
08-23-2003, 11:08 AM
SILO demo available for Win now:

SILO (http://www.nevercenter.com/index.php/Downloads/170)

lowkey
08-23-2003, 11:52 AM
just downloaded the demo, but it requires me to enter some registration data, which i don't have.

nothing about that on their site! :annoyed:

wgreenlee1
08-23-2003, 12:07 PM
Thats for if you wish to buy it...
They give the reg number then you enter it to go beyond the 40 uses.

I like this very much...it reminds me a lot of Maya.
I just found the button page options and this is really fun actually.



EDIT: Actually I'm endorseing this product.
$109 seems a little steep seeing most have these capabilitys but I really sense this is going to be a very well liked modeler among the community.
I hope everyone downloads this and vhecks it out.
Tons of fun.

lowkey
08-23-2003, 12:12 PM
ohhhhhhhh, stupid me...it's too early here and it was a heavy night! :rolleyes:

thanks a lot! :p

ambient-whisper
08-23-2003, 12:26 PM
sofar the only thing i like is the speed in it.
otherwise feels too much like maya..

TRick
08-23-2003, 01:07 PM
I'm DL it now...

One stupid question: are tablets supported in tablet mode ?!?!

lowkey
08-23-2003, 01:09 PM
are tablets supported in tablet mode ?!?!

yes they are...i'm just doodling around in it and it feels very good! :)

TRick
08-23-2003, 01:23 PM
GOOD..GOOD

Now let's everybody make buttons of a screencapture of their favorite app and see how interfaces can be custommade...

tjnyc
08-23-2003, 01:46 PM
Anyone, get the Split Tool to work? It seems very buggy. It doesn't actual land on the edge I want to split and then jumps down and disappears when I position the cursor about half way down the screen. Very odd. The Instance tool should have an option to scale in different axis, so one can model in symmetry(virtual mirror). To get that one has to instance the object and then open the numerical editor and scale in the negative direction.

BazC
08-23-2003, 02:40 PM
Hmm, AmbientWhisper says it's fast, I've heard elsewhere that it's slow!
What does everyone else think, especially if you can compare it to Wings!
I can't try it yet, I'm on a Mac, have to play on a mates Windows box! - Baz

lowkey
08-23-2003, 02:52 PM
The Instance tool should have an option to scale in different axis, so one can model in symmetry(virtual mirror)

definitely! same goes for the duplicate function. and how about snap modes?...i'm afraid there are none available! :surprised

wgreenlee1
08-23-2003, 02:53 PM
I am not having any problems with the split tool.
You may need to make sure your vid card drivers/opengl are up to date.

Actually imitating Maya would be a strong point for any application saying otherwise shows inexperience with Mayas excellent and extremely modifiable toolset.

Its a lot like Wings in workflow and such.Frankly a mergeing of the both of them would make a monster of a modeler.

Nonproductive
08-23-2003, 03:10 PM
I get absolutely no refresh within the window.. From the time I start it up, to the time I shut it down...

I am sure it's a driver issue on my machine, but I don't have time to mess with drivers that work with everything else right now.

I'm hopeful, but looks like I'm going to be waiting a little while for the initial quirks to be ironed out.

ChrisDNT
08-23-2003, 03:20 PM
Any idea on how to use correctly the background images?

Cheers,

ChrisDNT
08-23-2003, 03:23 PM
It's in the help, sorry:D

tjnyc
08-23-2003, 03:45 PM
The speed of the subD is good, not as fast as say LW or XSI, but lightning fast comparable to Maya or Wings. The workflow is slow incomparison to Wings IMHO. One nagging issue I have with Silo is the way the manlipulator works, you are not able to move sub elements by just dragging your mouse ala Maya or C4D from your viewpoint resulting in movement in multi-axis, but are restricted to movement one axis at a time by having to click and drag in each separate axis. That to me equals slow workflow when it comes to tweaking, I don't want to do 1 select + 3 separate translation actions to accomplish what can be done in 1 action, like in Mirai and Wings. Like I said it is a nagging issue, but one that would improve workflow.

It isn't all negative for me though, I like alot of other things, like the more architectural inclined toolset and options, which most poly modelers are generally lacking. The Line tool is excellent, a definite plus. :thumbsup:

I have a Wildcat 2 5110, so if anyone else has that card and are having Split Tool problems let me know. I haven't found any adjustment that is resolving the problem. I also don't have any issue with any other 3D applications.

I would kill for Wings functionality with Silo subD speed and more Architectural-friendly and Line tools. Maybe that will be what Modo will turns out to be.


regards,

SheepFactory
08-23-2003, 03:48 PM
I agree with Martin , the only thing good so far is the speed. Otherwise its very similar to the maya modeller but the bevel in Silo works :D

Also the selection method is real nice , LMB selection uses backface culling and mmb selection selects everything behind the object.

these are the hits , now for the misses:

- where is the edge ring selection?

-edge loop\ring selection + cutting should be made easier , ie: in wings (connect) .

-needs a tweak mode like in wings.

-needs more control in the soft selection department , i want to be able to control visually how my falloff is going to be.

-bridge

-Needs more selection modes , likle raycast , lasso , etc

I hope nevercenter listens to their userbase and adds these features. Because as of now wings has a better feature set and its free.

tjnyc
08-23-2003, 04:04 PM
Yes, cutting edges should all be like Mirai, Wings. ;)

You can cut edges sort like in Mirai and Wings, by using the split face loop tool. You can also slide with this tool. :thumbsup:

An edge ring selection is definitely needed in Silo.

Also, jump selection isn't fluid in Silo like in Wings and Mirai, but mimics Maya(slow).

I agreed on Sheep Factory's opinion on soft selection. A Mirai powered Magnet tool would be killer.

swag
08-23-2003, 04:14 PM
i think silo needs more time -

BazC
08-23-2003, 04:36 PM
Thanks for the info! Sounds like with some development and maybe some plugins this could be an excellent app! - Baz

tjnyc
08-23-2003, 05:17 PM
Okay, I found the problem with the Split tool, it doesn't work when I am on dual monitors. It works fine when I switch to single. Anyone else having problems when on dual monitors?

Ibox
08-23-2003, 05:30 PM
Thus far I prefer Wings3d eh... I can get on it and flow.... I am having some terrible time with Silo, can't just click to select as far as I can tell, as in smart selection... is there an option to turn on for this? if so where?

Perhaps it's going to take a ton of retraining my feeble brain to wrap around this app, but... then again right from not having the dollycam on middle mouse on to this select route etc, I am getting frustrated to say the least...

and yea, bevel works... lol

now if only Wings had this universal widgit manip... ooooooohboyo would that be cool eh? though inhind sight here, this unimanip really needs a set for extrude and the like... I meann if you are going to include manip tools go all the way or not at all eh...

ambient-whisper
08-23-2003, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by BazC
Hmm, AmbientWhisper says it's fast, I've heard elsewhere that it's slow!
What does everyone else think, especially if you can compare it to Wings!
I can't try it yet, I'm on a Mac, have to play on a mates Windows box! - Baz

yeah. on my pc its extremely fast. id say xsi fast.
i just think they shouldve done a public beta before selling because theres a number of workflow issues. most of which have been mentioned above.

Ibox
08-23-2003, 05:44 PM
I totaly agree...

Ibox
08-23-2003, 06:06 PM
on the other hand, the partial subd tool really works well, along with unsub and refine... very way cool :thumbsup:

This app sort of reminds me of Metasquia on steroids... :D

I think much of the problems encountered, other than the absence of certain tools that is, really stems around the default settings not including buttons/button pages for some of the more basic tools, extrude for example...

xzevlin
08-23-2003, 07:18 PM
It seems pretty fast to me, at least in terms of displaying a number of polys that would bring Wings to its knees. It didn't take me very long to start getting the hang of it, but then again it took me months to really get settled with Wings.


What Silo really needs is a video tutorial showing off its tools and workflow.

Ibox
08-23-2003, 07:40 PM
anybody else loose thier objects from time to time in perspective? how do you gain them back... they come back in ortho but click persp and nada... open new scene and still nada... hmmm

bored alien
08-23-2003, 07:43 PM
Hold Ctrl to move/rotate/scale in the plane of the screen (depending on the manip). :thumbsup:

Nonproductive
08-23-2003, 07:44 PM
For what it's worth -

I just started up Silo again to see if I may have missed something that was preventing the screen from refreshing...

It works fine now. Nothing has changed and I didn't reboot my machine since the 1st time I ran it. So not sure what the deal was, but all seesm fine in the display dept. now :)

Ibox
08-23-2003, 08:04 PM
ah, it's fun to explore I suppose but...

I was hoping for an app with the tools found in Wings, the smart selection/highlighting of Wings, the widgits found in Silo with maybe an extrude included within same widgits, the subd of Silo, and the continuous tool in use of C4D, as in extrude until you are finished extruding that that needed such...

to which... nada as of yet eh lol

missing the most for me other than the above mentioned hehe, is the bevel of verts as is found in Wings...


I suppose we will discover more things not as intuitive as we would like, but yea... no one app as of yet... hahaha, too much to ask for I suppose

:scream:

tjnyc
08-23-2003, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by bored alien
Hold Ctrl to move/rotate/scale in the plane of the screen (depending on the manip). :thumbsup:

Yeah I found that out as well. Silo is starting to grow on me. I'm really liking the button pages thing, but I prefer to assign hotkeys, which I just can't seem to do nor am I able to use my own icons.

bored alien
08-23-2003, 08:14 PM
Hey tjnyc, I can assign hotkeys by going to the Options menu, and choosing Keyboard Shortcuts. It's a little unclear, but you click on the function you want to assign a key to, and then press the key. Does that work for you?

tjnyc
08-23-2003, 08:18 PM
Yeah, I was trying to do a combo hotkey setup, crtl+?, alt+?, but it appears that only single hotkey assignments works.

wgreenlee1
08-23-2003, 08:22 PM
There is only so many commands any right....unless I'm missing something here...

Has anyone customised the buttons/pages with images yet?



Dang...
I wish it had a hundred sessions before timing out....I could almost get addicted to this app....enough to buy it.


I love the interface....there is none.LOL!Well except for the button/pages.

This is really cool.

tjnyc
08-23-2003, 08:38 PM
Whoa! Silo just crashed my system. :eek:

I tried the Bool Subtract with a cube and a cylinder, subD using the "c" hotkey 3 times, then unsubD using the "v" key and then rotated and panned and bam it locked my computer, couldn't even alt+crtl+del my way out, had to hard boot my computer.

wgreenlee1
08-23-2003, 09:12 PM
Did you reduce sub'ds before the boolean?

tjnyc
08-23-2003, 09:20 PM
No and I started with a new scene to test out the Bool function, I was playing around with it for 30 minutes before the crash. Haven't been able to reproduce the crash since I rebooted.

wgreenlee1
08-23-2003, 10:01 PM
Huh.....

Well its running pretty stable here...Ive doodleing and stuff but it seems to put up with me pretty good so far...

Peter Reynolds
08-23-2003, 10:12 PM
Any opinion from the GODs?

Bay?

markdc
08-23-2003, 10:31 PM
I think it has potential but :

there doesn't seem to be a symmetry mode unless I missed it (does have instances)

I would like to be able to change the viewport controls (orbiting etc) (like wings).

It has crashed a couple of times while saving.

I do like the buttons in the viewports. If they tweak it, I think it can be a nice package.

Joviex
08-23-2003, 10:39 PM
Hmm, there are some issues for sure.

Dunno what mode of selection I am in (yes I have a short memory) feedback of some kind would be nice.

Ok, I found out how to rotate in perspective, never let it be said I don't read manuals, however, it doesn't rotate around the handle as stated in the manual. It rotates around some arbritary point in space, which mena si have to rotate, pan, rotate, pan, rotate, pan, etc etc... to get into the right spot.

Again, tool mode. Bevel, no clue I am beveling, maybe an on screen icon, or a toolbar with some text telling me, possibly with options; yellow ball scales, blue, pulls, etc....

View shortcuts, can we have a non-modal window? I would like to keep that up until I get them all down (the ones I haven't remapped).

Can I also make my right-click menu have more options? I would rather have some of the tools on that, and remove some of the other tools.

It seems very fast, but it is slightly counterintuitive in a lot of spots. Wish there had been an open beta first, hopefully the next release will be stronger.

Just noticed something else. I exported an OBJ and imported it into LW. In Silo it displays fine, in LW the normals are flipped. Not sure which one is in the wrong, or maybe something happend in translation.

And something else. THe LW object even has subdivison on it, very nice, but it lacks a texture. Nothing big, just slap one on during import, but it did crash LW twice when switching into textured mode before adding a texture.

bored alien
08-23-2003, 11:14 PM
I have a question. If I do Select Face Loop in Silo, and then Split Face Loop, isn't that basically the same thing as selecting the edge ring and doing connect? I'm not very proficient in wings. :shrug:

AmbientLight
08-23-2003, 11:17 PM
Ok, so I select face here, I select another face there. Oops, I selected wrong one. How do I deselect something without losing my entire selection?

sabrina
08-23-2003, 11:37 PM
teehee, seems to be no +/- for selections either, oops :)

bored alien
08-23-2003, 11:40 PM
Hold Shift to add, Shift + Ctrl to toggle, and Shift + Alt to remove from the selection. You should check the Quick Start Guide in the help file. ;)

sketchyjay
08-23-2003, 11:46 PM
Originally posted by bored alien
I have a question. If I do Select Face Loop in Silo, and then Split Face Loop, isn't that basically the same thing as selecting the edge ring and doing connect? I'm not very proficient in wings. :shrug:

Yeah I finally figured that one out. Select the faces then split. For LW users it is like a limited Jigsaw plugin.

Same as doing connect in Wings.

I like the spin edge tool.

Okay a real pain is the lack of ANY feedback as to what view I am in. I was in front view for a few seconds trying to turn a object before I figured out what I did. A readout of what I am doing would be nice. Same goes for if I am in edge, vertex etc mode.

Mirror will merge edges along the middle and it is not easy to recreate them since it does not have a conect tool or a weld command that I can find.

So far other than speed it does not stand out as a must have tool over using wings. Maybe by version 2 it will have worked out some of the issues.

Jay

AmbientLight
08-24-2003, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by bored alien
Hold Shift to add, Shift + Ctrl to toggle, and Shift + Alt to remove from the selection. You should check the Quick Start Guide in the help file. ;)

Oh yeah, thank you :) I might just do that. Nahh.. :D

Ibanezhead
08-24-2003, 05:29 AM
The button/page layout feature is interesting, but overall there doesn't seem to be much new here. The two things I think it needs the most is "Connect", and a UV Editor...

Vic

-JT-
08-24-2003, 07:17 AM
I played with it 15mn and i found it quite pleasing to work with.

What i loved the most : the universal manipulator tool !!!
That's definitly an improvement in speeding your workflow.

What i liked less :
- the rendering, i played with the material but couldn't come up with something right to view your object properly.

and stuff i couldn't figure out :
- I couldn't make my own RMB menus, is it possible ?
- A simmetry or mirror with instance option ?

What i'd like to have : a MMB zoom à la max or at least the possibility to make your own shortcuts for zoom, pan, rotate view.

-JT-
08-24-2003, 08:26 AM
Finally the universal manipulator tool is still not perfect (you can't use all the axis).
This is more what i had in mind, i'm not so found of keyboard shortcuts so a good tool like this would make me gain a lot of time.

http://tutsillustrator.free.fr/silotools.gif

sketchyjay
08-24-2003, 08:52 AM
JT is it me or were ceteran parts of the tools available in certain directions. Like move only Z rotate only Y and scale only X kind of thing?

Your example is exactly how I thought it should work like.

Right now the tool is a bit half-assed. Again feedback would be nice so we would know if there are any hidden shortcuts that change the direction of the Universal manipulater tools

J

lowkey
08-24-2003, 10:02 AM
Has anyone customised the buttons/pages with images yet?

yep, it works...but there's no alpha support available...anyway, those button pages rock! :)

chrom
08-24-2003, 10:21 AM
the modeler is good but like ambient say is too much like maya.
Too many good things missed here.But maybe in the next versions they will be fixed.I wright a mail to the nevercenter guys with tons of questions.If they respond me I post it here.

AmbientLight
08-24-2003, 10:22 AM
Whoa.. Ctrl + scroll wheel up or down changes manipulation mode :thumbsup:

Now I wish I could zoom by scrolling wheel up or down. Alt + LMB + MMB is not very comfortable combination for a mouse but it's perfect when you work with pen :thumbsup:

chrom
08-24-2003, 11:39 AM
ok here is some of my questions to nevercenter:

>
> Can you make a different camera modes.like Wings3d for
> example.The current mode is maya like and is very hard to
> zoom
> with the middle mouse button when is scroll button.I mean
> camera modes like 3ds max, Maya etc..
>
> Is there a way to bevel the polygon without swithing to edges?
> Is very good and useful thing.
>
> Can you make an inset function for polygons?
> I know the way with extrude to zero and than scale but the
> inset polygon is better.
>
>
> Is there a way to connect vertices and edges?
> Or divide the edges to one, two etc... segments.
>
> Can you make an edge ring selection directly?
> The face loop is good but not better.
>
> Is there a way to frame the current selection?



and the answer is fast:

"Hi,
We agree about the connect tool (for edges and vertices), so we're
adding it tonight and it should be available on the site before tomorrow -
we will not hesitate to add things in when we see that they're definitely
good. As for edge ring selection, we're putting that in a plugin (also on
the site soon) with select next/previous edge loop and ring and hope it will
be out sometime next week, titled something like "character modeling tools
1". To keep the main interface clean, we don't want to add too many
features into the main program, but rather keep them as plugins. Also look
for a frame selection function very soon. Your other suggestions are very
good and we'll evaluate them too. We're listening!

the good things come fast:))

lildragon
08-24-2003, 12:08 PM
Okie this is becoming to support like for the news forum, moving.

-lild

ChrisDNT
08-24-2003, 12:24 PM
Again probably a stupid question, I cannot zoom with alt, MMB, LMN! It doesn't zoom, but open the contextual menu!

ChrisDNT
08-24-2003, 12:26 PM
Same thing for rotate, the LMB opens the contextual menu!

ChrisDNT
08-24-2003, 04:03 PM
And bevel only on edges, not on faces? Or am I again wrong?

Cheers,

LucentDreams
08-24-2003, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by ambient-whisper
sofar the only thing i like is the speed in it.
otherwise feels too much like maya..

Had potential when I first started, but within minutes of using it this is my conclusion too. Definitely not what I was expecting or hoping for. oh well back to clay.

sabrina
08-24-2003, 05:38 PM
I have just finished reading this thread in it's entirety, along with testing the app it's self, and I must say that this is one very quick beta testing team here at CGT.

:applause:

Also, I should add here that I am very impressed with the responce given to Crom, by the the developing team.

I was visiting CGT last night looking for some other info, and I did notice that Jamchild? , one of the Silo team, was infact also visiting this thread, and instead of becoming defensive in responce it would appear that he went straight to the drawing board so to speak, inorder to better this product for us all, and that is very cool.

Keep up the good work all, this is very exciting to watch unfold :thumbsup:

FreakyFreddy
08-24-2003, 06:23 PM
I found a replicable crash bug in the first few minutes of using it:

1. Add a cube and a cylinder, rotate the cylinder to an oblique angle and move it so it's partially overlapping the cube.
2. Subtract the cylinder from the cube.
3. Select one of the faces in the cylinder cutout.
4. Hit Subdivide.
5. Undo: the boolean operands restored.
6. Move one of the operands.

Hello, desktop.

Not quite ready for prime time.

MallenLane
08-24-2003, 07:05 PM
Well, this is jsut my opinion. Its interesting, but not as good as Wings or Mirai. The workflow is slow, I find the camera mode tedious, and its lacking quite a few useful functions..


It does feel a lot like Maya, and I have to wonder, why? Many programs have, since its release, gravitated to a Mirai kind of work flow. Wouldn't it be easier on an upstart modelling company to just deliver what people have been saying they like, in polished form?

Seems to me they basically want Mirai "lite" (i.e. all the modelling functions, no animation) with a Wings evolved workflow; and some nifty widgets thrown in to boot.

Right now Silo technically has all the functions, but in their current arrangement, the process just ends up too slow.

tjnyc
08-24-2003, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by chrom
[B]
We agree about the connect tool (for edges and vertices), so we're
adding it tonight and it should be available on the site before tomorrow -


Great! Much needed and wanted. I still can't get the Split tool to work properly, and I hope to never use it again as long as a connect tool is in place.

Originally posted by chrom
[B]
As for edge ring selection, we're putting that in a plugin (also on
the site soon) with select next/previous edge loop and ring


It is about time someone added one of these into a modeler. I always wanted a next/pre->edge loop/ring jump selecting. Good addin Nevercenter. :thumbsup:

policarpo
08-24-2003, 08:00 PM
just played with it for a 20 minutes or so...and these are the changes i'd make:

1. Viewport Controls should be as follows:
a. Zoom=ALT+SHIFT+LMB (the ALT + LMB + MMB is just painful)
b. Rotate=as is ALT+LMB is fine
c. Pan=as is ALT+MMB is fine

2. You should be able to select multiple faces/edges/vertices just by holding down your LMB as you scrub over your geometry (the SHIFT select is needed, but only in instances where the viewport needs to be rotated, etc)

3. Your modify Tools should also be contextual (i found the shortcuts and they are good...but having quicker access to Bevel, Extrude, etc via a contextual menu would be good and keep you from going up to the main app window drop down list).

4. Wasn't sure about this, but is there a Smooth Sub-D view mode like the TAB function in LightWave?

5. A Connect/Bridge tool is needed (sounds like this will be done)

6. It would be nice to leave the Keyboard shortcuts window open while I am modeling (just being able to access them insures that i get familiar with the shortcuts a lot quicker (having the window as a modal state as it is now is just a little workflow gripe).

I know the power of the UI is its customizability...but you should think about releasing it with 3 modes for working: Beginner (more tools are present on the surface), Intermediate (just seeing the shortcut list and being able to model concurrently would help tremendously) and Expert (i'd say that what you have now is the Expert mode).

that's all i have right now.

it seems fairly fast...but it's still a lot slower than modeling in LightWave for me at the moment. but i'll keep messing around with it until i get use to it a bit more.

cheers!

sabrina
08-24-2003, 08:10 PM
It is about time someone added one of these into a modeler. I always wanted a next/pre->edge loop/ring jump selecting. Good addin Nevercenter

this feature is already found in Wings. simply select v/e/f and/or loop or ring and use +/- keys :)

Silo:

needs above +/- selection

needs the bevel tool to work with faces and verts

3button mouse cam/zoom

bridge tool, would be very nice if such tool would allow for bridging more than two faces at a time, but even two by two would be great :)

the undo should include previous tools used and selections made thus preventing reselcting

and yes, the cut and connect found in Wings would be divine

Stability is a concern, I am using my uses up rather quickly, and I have read on another board that somebody lost thier model in perspective though not in ortho, and though I have yet to encounter this problem I thought I would mention it :)

tjnyc
08-24-2003, 08:46 PM
There is a smooth subD like the Tab in LW. You have to use the "c" hotkey to subD, and you can keep subDing with the "c" hotkey to high levels. You can also unsubD using the "v" hotkey.

You can also hotkey the shortcut screen to bring it up whenever you want.

I have no problem with the zoom, personally the LW shift+alt+LMB has always been a real pain for me, I much prefer the alt + LMB+MMB over the LW way. Each to there own though.
It would be beneficial if Nevercenter made navigation customizable to each users preference.

Here are my wants:

- Button pages visibililty should also be hotkey-able, maybe like in Maya to hold the spacebar to bring up your custom button pages or some other key.

- A slide tool. Pick a vertex, edge or face and slide along an edge.

- Inset is also needed to go with Extrude.

- Bridge

- Get rid of the inability to switch to different tools or selection while using certain tools while it is "active". For example, if I did a Split Face or Bevel, I can't switch to another modifying tool or switch selection to say a vertex, because the tool is locked until I press ENTER to complete it. It should automatically recognize that I am done with the tool without it requiring me to press ENTER, once I switch to another action.

- Magnet tool that allows a user to make their own interactive falloff. The user can select the elements they want to use and then select the falloff by selecting other elements(point(s), edge(s), 3 points, and so on) Like in Mirai.

- Symmetry via a virtual mirror. The current Instance->(-)scale is the only way about it, but it would be nice to have as one action. Also, the ability to break the symmetry.

- Ability to turn off geometry border like in Maya so when in symmetry mode the edges aren't so sharp when there are holes.


Regards,

policarpo
08-24-2003, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by tjnyc
There is a smooth subD like the Tab in LW. You have to use the "c" hotkey to subD, and you can keep subDing with the "c" hotkey to high levels. You can also unsubD using the "v" hotkey.

i know about that...what i was asking was for a realtime smoothing preview like when you hit the TAB key in modeler.

the increase/decrease feature in silo is similar to the subdivide function in LW...

i just want to see the geometry smoothed in the viewport...

it's probably there...i just haven't found it yet.

also...allowing the user to configure their viewport Zoom, Pan, Rotate would be a good thing...heck...just make the scroll wheel the zoom feature...i always liked that about 3dsmax. :)

cheers

Flog
08-24-2003, 09:45 PM
How do you zoom out?
THere is nothing about zoom in or zoom out. It feels great except cannot control zoom in our out
Please help

chrom
08-24-2003, 09:51 PM
good thread with big good wishlist:)

like it:)

Shannon
08-24-2003, 09:52 PM
It's pretty damn fast with high counts.

But it does lack some essentials.

I'm not to sure about their implementation of instance when using it as a virtual mirror. You can not select or edit any components on the instance. And, nothing new here, you get the gap if you pull center verts off the X axis.

tjnyc
08-24-2003, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by policarpo
i know about that...what i was asking was for a realtime smoothing preview like when you hit the TAB key in modeler.


Hit the "0" as in zero to cycle through shading modes. I think it works with the wheel as well, but I don't have one so I can't say.

chrom
08-24-2003, 10:04 PM
and yes missed something

a cap holes tool maybe great

also align for vertices.Or if exist i can't find him.

And I have a problem with Drop current tool.When I make a spline with line tool and hit escape for finish the line disapear.
Same thing with make poly tool.If anybody know what is the solution pls tell me.

regards
chrom

tjnyc
08-24-2003, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Shannon
It's pretty damn fast with high counts.

But it does lack some essentials.

I'm not to sure about their implementation of instance when using it as a virtual mirror. You can not select or edit any components on the instance. And, nothing new here, you get the gap if you pull center verts off the X axis.

Why do you need to edit the virtual mirrored side? You can deInstance the instance object if you wish, but you will be breaking the virtual mirror.
Good if you want to merge your two halves later though.

I do agree that if a virtual mirror is created that the seam remains in tact on the side you are mirroring and the border seam reflect that there is a virtually attached side and not a border edge which can be seen in the current sharp edge break when using Instance.

Maybe many of these issues will be resolved when they release their Character Tools plugin.


regards,

tjnyc
08-24-2003, 10:24 PM
There should also have a loft tool to loft the line objects with construction history so editing could be made on the individual lines similiar to how it works with NURBS. I can see a great benefit to making non-organic models this way.

dAfTiE
08-24-2003, 10:58 PM
For the mirror thing,I have to say I LOVE how it works in Wings,
it just kicks soo much rear bits being able to just tweak away on both sides of the miror,
and automagically have the other side update,
and the fact that the edges/faces at the mirror plane scale instead of creating a seam rocks too.

Oh,and the edge loop selection jumping is by default F3/F4 in Wings...
+ and - is grow and shrink selection and magnet influence :)

Silo seems pretty nice,but for my needs I see no reason to buy it,
at least not until some of the workflow issues are resolved...
I like the idea of making the hotkey window non-modal,
that would prolly help some right there...
And better feedback for the various tools and modes would be nice as well.

sabrina
08-25-2003, 12:06 AM
ahha, I see what Tync was wanting now, and thank you very much for bringing this up DafTie, I have gained yet another bit of knowledge. Wings is a very good modeling toolset.

Flog
08-25-2003, 05:42 AM
I still want to know how to zoom in and zoom out of an object, PLEASE!!!!

:eek:

policarpo
08-25-2003, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by Flog
I still want to know how to zoom in and zoom out of an object, PLEASE!!!!

:eek:

ALT+LMB+MMB will ZOOM in and out in the viewport if this is what you are asking.

Ibox
08-25-2003, 06:27 AM
whoa, that's pretty awkward eh... just mmb or even alt/mmb would be much more comfy ;)

sketchyjay
08-25-2003, 06:45 AM
How many people are using a normal mouse? I am using a trackman marble and the acrobatics to hit both the LMB and the MMB at teh same time are basicly impossible. Even my wheel mice are a pain when the wheel has to be used in a combination with the other buttons.

They need to make the mice buttons reconfigurable.

Well at this point it has alot of good points and after some workflow tweaks it will actually be a really good program. And from the sounds of it they will have some of the tweaks before long. Has anyone told them about this thread? They could read alot of feedback good and bad until their forums are up.

jay

AmbientLight
08-25-2003, 06:57 AM
After some time you actually get used to LMB+MMB but it is still awkward. Personally I don't hate it when I have to press 2 buttons on the keyboard + 1 button on the mouse or vice versa; 1 button on the button on the keyboard and 2 buttons on the mouse.

I also think axis pointers on manipulators need to highlight when you grab them. When you don't get any visual feedback you don't know that you missed it until you drag it. Very annoying imho. And how about XSI style translation? Say you can click between X and Y and move, scale and rotate on both axises.

Oh, one more thing. Hotkeys work only one way. Say you trun off work grid pressing one key and turn it on pressing another.. Umm.. It doubles the ammount of hotkeys I have to remember :) My brain is already overheated as it is hehe.

roger
08-25-2003, 07:10 AM
I use a "normal" 3-button mouse and I use Maya everyday at work so I like that Silo is the same. A lot of people use Maya so I think it's a good idea that "new" 3d software has similar/same mouse + keyboard functions. :thumbsup:

Of course it would also be nice to be able to change them too.....

AmbientLight
08-25-2003, 07:17 AM
In Maya you dolly camera with Alt + RMB. In Silo RMB is reserved for contextual menu, which is umm.. another thing that I don't really enjoy very much. I'd rather use hotkeys and on screen buttons. You can hide them and every time you hold space they appear on the screen. Kind of like Maya.

bored alien
08-25-2003, 08:42 AM
Hm. Try the two-button mouse option in the General Options dialog in the Options menu, might suit your tastes a little better?

EDIT: It pretty much moves everything that's mapped to MMB over to RMB

AmbientLight
08-25-2003, 08:47 AM
Good tip! :thumbsup: Should've thought about it myself :banghead:

Libor
08-25-2003, 10:13 AM
Hi there!

I have just been playing with Silo and I must say it has potential. What I expected from stand-alone modeller is there - much faster implementation of subD, easy and light weight UI (sometimes lacks fast logical workflow with deep customization) . Here is list of my thoughts (for dev team maybe;) )

What I like:

1) super fast SubD
2) ui design/simplicity
3) face loop select/ split


What should be changed / added:

1) customizing navigation in views!!! (Maya, Max or Wings like)
3) symmetry tool (essential for poly modelling characters etc)
2) selection of components with just 1 additional key (sel/deselect toggle by repeatedly clicking on component)
3) highlighting axes of transform gizmos when clicking


There are maybe another things which shloud be changed but these are the most wanted for me...

Anyway good start! I m really looking forward for next version of the SILO!:applause:

tjnyc
08-25-2003, 02:59 PM
Update from Nevercenter website


Silo 1.0 Demo v2 will be released soon, including such improvements as: support for greater than 1600x1200 resolution, a new connect tool, and bug fixes. The new demo will give you 40 more free uses.



The resolution is probably why the split tool didn't work for me since I was working with dual screens. I hope the new connect tool supports point<->point, point<->edge, edge<->edge.

Would also like to see a "Cut Edge" tool.

Character Modeling Toolset is also coming. I'm going to wait to see what this toolset will include before seriously considering buying Silo, **cough** virtual mirror **cough**. ;)

easy
08-25-2003, 04:07 PM
Seems like this application has a lot going for it if changes a few things. I personally don't like the manipulator tool, its not been degin to well.

How can you focus on a specific object or a selection of an object?

Goon
08-25-2003, 08:32 PM
Upon purchasing the product you will receive a registration code which will activate the full version of the product. While this form of copy protection is more susceptible to indiscriminate distribution, we feel it provides greater flexibility to legitimate users. As a small company, we rely on user satisfaction and support.

For all those who were irritated by the machine code.

Hookflash
08-25-2003, 11:29 PM
Originally posted by Goon
For all those who were irritated by the machine code.

I think this is very commendable. Some of the larger companies who shall remain nameless (hint: rhymes with Adobe;)) could learn a thing or two here.

tjnyc
08-25-2003, 11:37 PM
I agree. Nevercenter was good about addressing my resolution problem and on some of my wants. So far I feel confident on their commitment to their potential userbase. They don't just say their care they actually do. Isn't that a first.

Peter Reynolds
08-25-2003, 11:48 PM
So far, a quicker response than you'll get from Alias, that's for sure.

Ibox
08-26-2003, 04:23 AM
Yup, it's pretty refreshing to say the least :D

policarpo
08-26-2003, 05:38 AM
keep up the great work so far guys.

can't wait to see the update.

Be sure to get some sleep, or at least power nap during the day.

:buttrock:

AmbientLight
08-26-2003, 11:11 AM
Holy cow! They didn't listen to you policarpo :) 1.01 has just been released. It's 5:17AM CST here :)

Woohoo.. Alt + scroll wheel = zoom in and out :D Edge ring and connect are very very welcome additions.

One thing I noticed. If you're in edge or point selection modes, you can't subdivide your mesh. But if you select at least one point or edge, you can. Think it's a bug. It was the same in 1.0.

jamchild
08-26-2003, 11:18 AM
Hi All,
There's a new demo version of Silo up (40 more free uses) with many of your suggestions implemented. Included are:

alternate mouse setup (and zoom with scroll wheel in the default setup) - use RMB with Alt, Ctrl+Alt, and Shift+Alt

edge ring selection (while functionally the same as face loops, people are more familiar with these)

connect tool (edge to edge and vertex to vertex)

workflow fixes (automatically taken out of certain tools when you go to start a different tool)

bug fixes (some export problems fixed, higher resolution monitors allowed, other small issues resolved)

Thanks for all the input! We'll keep updating the program in this manner as time goes on. Time for bed.:surprised

actarusprocyon
08-26-2003, 01:40 PM
A wonderful application...


:)

cons


Crashed one time(cold booter)

Can't select a new geomtry window with else than lmb

Does not display the orientation of the Geo windows

Hide Grid hides it in all viewports

Cam should zoom on hovered area or have a Center View on selection option

dodgey Menus,seems like they stop working from time to time,minimize/maximize seems to correct it

Pro


No matter how many cons there are,it's worth checking out

melchior_
08-26-2003, 02:05 PM
Please add alternate methods of selecting geometry.
Specifically, I want to scrub over geometry to select it instead of always having to draw a bounding box or clicking over and over. In this mode the ctrl+shift selection mode (toggle selected) should be the default without holding down the keys.

And thanks so much for adding alternate mouse navigation.

:applause:

tjnyc
08-26-2003, 02:20 PM
Originally posted by jamchild
Hi All,
There's a new demo version of Silo up (40 more free uses) with many of your suggestions implemented. Included are:

alternate mouse setup (and zoom with scroll wheel in the default setup) - use RMB with Alt, Ctrl+Alt, and Shift+Alt

edge ring selection (while functionally the same as face loops, people are more familiar with these)

connect tool (edge to edge and vertex to vertex)

workflow fixes (automatically taken out of certain tools when you go to start a different tool)

bug fixes (some export problems fixed, higher resolution monitors allowed, other small issues resolved)

Thanks for all the input! We'll keep updating the program in this manner as time goes on. Time for bed.:surprised

Tom,

Great job. Love the enhancements. Any word on symmetry or virtual mirror? Can we except it in the Character tools?


Thank you,

sketchyjay
08-26-2003, 02:58 PM
The connect tool great as well as the select loop.

Glad to see that they are so fast to do fixes. And that they were able to implement the changes so fast.

Great Job Nevercenter

J

BazC
08-26-2003, 03:06 PM
I'm impressed with how they're listening and acting on peoples suggestions, well done Nevercenter!

Three things it really needs are

A tool that allows you to select and move with only one click, like Wings Tweak or Lightwaves Drag

Virtual Mirror!

A real subdivision option (Not SDS/control cage type) like Wings Smooth or Lightwaves Metaform.

This could develop into a hell of an app! - Baz

markdc
08-26-2003, 05:43 PM
Still needs:

virtual mirror/symmetry (hope this is high priority).
Custom mouse setup.


Can you name the viewports (Left, Top, Right, Perspective)?

Goon
08-26-2003, 07:38 PM
any chance you could get it down to 1.44 megs so I can take it home:D ? I really want to try this.

actarusprocyon
08-26-2003, 08:35 PM
Using WinRAR(Demo available) you can easily split it up into 1.44 volumes and if you don't have WinRAR at home,it doesn't matter,you can make an SFX archive(self-extracting) :)

Personally,I hate WinZip's disk spanning,way too much frustrations when one of them doesn't work...

lowkey
08-26-2003, 08:59 PM
besides the available demos there are tons of freeware ziptools out there e.g. zip genius or quickzip, which offer even more functionality than most commercial applications.

but back to the matter of this thread:

i'm deeply impressed about how fast nevercenter integrated those new options and tools on our 'demand' (wishes). highly appreciated! :love:

the connect tool works nice, though it would be much more efficient if one could also connect verts to edges.

anyway, what i'm really missing is a 'repeat last command' function and some kind of virtual sliders, that let you do transformations via mouse gestures.

another major annoyance are those 'you have to switch to another tool to perform this and that' messages, which look like bug reports. some smartswitch/highlighting would be nice.

'bevel vertices' is also on my wishlist.

to make things short:

silo's got lots of potential and i really love the interface and speed.

when those minor points will be fixed, i'll be on.


:buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock:

btw, how about 'snapping magnets' for the split tool? did i miss something?!

tjnyc
08-26-2003, 09:38 PM
Here are some more stuff I would like to see.

- Jump selection from previous highlighted elements. I often jump select from an element to element based on what I was on previously. Like if I selected a face, then I jump select to the 3/4/5 points surronding it by hitting the vertex "a" key. I can then expand selection to surrounding verteces with the "+" key and soft selection->translate.

- HUD to display poly, vertex and edge count. Good for game modelers.

r2m
08-26-2003, 09:54 PM
this app is really cool, but only 40 times to run it is not enough !
the app is crashy, and i started it already 10 times tonite ! :surprised
i hope this will be fixed somehow, the crashy behavior or the limit of time, hopefully both ! :D
i love this app, and i will keep an eye on it. as soon as it has a rib export, i'll buy it !:beer:

tjnyc
08-26-2003, 11:57 PM
Take a look at my first work with Silo I did in the last hour

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=84362

Mechis
08-27-2003, 03:10 AM
Love playing with this app! Too much darn fun :)

tjnyc
08-27-2003, 05:55 AM
A few more things I found about the workflow after my recent model.

Jump selection is more than possible, just another separate set of hotkey(s). :thumbsup:

The translate, rotate, scale handles need to be bigger or have a broader awareness of the mouse because I have often not been able to select those handles, and it is getting really annoying. Highlighting the handles would be nice like in Maya to let us know whether we got it or not.

The Ctrl + LMB drag for translating from user perspective is alright, but the workflow could be improved with less action.

Currently This is how it works if I wanted to move 2 vertex

- Select vertex/edge/face
- Hold CTRL and translate vertex/edge/face
- Release CTRL
- Select vertex/edge/face
- Hold CTRL and translate vertex/edge/face
- Release CTRL

This is what I would think would improve the workflow

- Hold CTRL (temporary tweak mode)
- Select vertex/edge/face and translate/rotate
- Select another vertex/edge/face(hold shift for multi-selection) and translate/rotate
- Release CTRL to end temporary tweak mode.

I believe XSI uses a similiar approach with the "m" hotkey for temp tweaking of points.

If I wanted to move 10 vertex individually, I only have to do at least 12 actions with my workflow suggestion, but with the current setup I have to do 30 actions and it feels arkward to constantly hold and release the CTRL key for every single element I want to tweak.

With that being said I would like to once again thank the guys at Nevercenter for listening.


Regards,

AmbientLight
08-27-2003, 06:58 AM
What XSI can actually do. If you just press 'm', it locks tweak mode. If you press and hold it, it switches to tweak mode for as long as you hold 'm' key and goes back to previous mode as long as you release it. Actually you can do it with pretty much any command in XSI. It's very comfortable if say you just want to orbit your object for a while, you can only do it by holding one mouse button only.

Shannon
08-27-2003, 08:04 AM
The second a virtual mirror shows up, I'm buying it.

I'd love to see interactive control of the soft-select "distance".

r2m
08-27-2003, 10:24 AM
well, maya, XSI, or even 3dsmax can be very good modellers indeed, but this app is so light !!!
a real polygon editor...
and a pretty cheap one !!! :beer:

tjnyc
08-27-2003, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by AmbientLight
What XSI can actually do. If you just press 'm', it locks tweak mode. If you press and hold it, it switches to tweak mode for as long as you hold 'm' key and goes back to previous mode as long as you release it. Actually you can do it with pretty much any command in XSI. It's very comfortable if say you just want to orbit your object for a while, you can only do it by holding one mouse button only.

Doh! Yeah, that would be even better.

tjnyc
08-27-2003, 03:49 PM
Another couple of things I found out.

- You can do a single edge cut by just using connect on a single edge.

- To avoid Access violation crashes when saving, remove the instance object you created. I was having this crash often when I saved, until I killed the instance object before saving. No more access crashes now.

bored alien
08-27-2003, 04:52 PM
Hey tjnyc, did you install the newer version of the demo over the old one or uninstall first? I installed over the old one and had some saving probs until I uninstalled and re-installed. (You still get the same number of saves.) Maybe that would help?

tjnyc
08-27-2003, 04:57 PM
I uninstalled the older version and rebooted. Standard practice for me. Then I installed the newer version. The saving problem seems to be related to having instance objects, oddly enough. I haven't had any crashes with saving since I found that out. I also avoid Bool, had 2 bad crashes because of it. Bool is Evil!

lowkey
08-27-2003, 07:27 PM
ok, i'm getting used to silo and it's fun, but:

1. i really need to frame my camera on selected objects/components

2. x-ray mode (without wires!) is a must for working on more complex shapes.

3. pickwalking/jump selecting makes life a lot easier.

4. i'm in desperate need of 'repeat last command'.

are those features there?! did i miss 'em?
if not i hope for implementation! :drool:

btw, some booleans crash my system either!

markdc
08-27-2003, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by BazC

A real subdivision option (Not SDS/control cage type) like Wings Smooth or Lightwaves Metaform.


Baz,

I think Refine Mesh does what you're looking for.

The new LW/Max mouse setup is an improvement, but how about a custom mouse setup (let me set it up how I like it)?

And of course symmetry is still needed.

BazC
08-27-2003, 08:33 PM
brian-dim - Thanks for the info, I hadn't even noticed that command! I'll give it a whirl! - Baz

-JT-
08-28-2003, 08:11 AM
I like this app a lot, the workflow is one of the best i've seen.
I still miss a "mirror/simmetry option" or "delete half/mirror half button", and a few crashes especially on save are annoying.

Here is my central button setup, i turn of "show buttons" and use the space bar while modeling.
That's all i feel i need for the moment, i use right click to create objects.
http://tutsillustrator.free.fr/stuff/julosetup.jpg
right click/save as :
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/julien.tromeur/animations/julos.sbl

rebo
08-28-2003, 10:08 PM
Im sorry i wont be buying it, there is faster workflow in wings which is free.

The only thing i liked was the speed of the subd algorithm SILO uses. Add that to wings and i would pay £1k for that app =].

jamchild
08-29-2003, 06:03 AM
Hi,
Thought I'd drop a line to say we just put in tweak mode (automatically enabled if you hold down control when nothing is selected) - it works really nice to scale, rotate, or move your selection in a tweak format, depending on which manipulator you have selected. Will be in 1.02. Virtual mirror will be in as well, either in the character modelling tools plugin or 1.02 (haven't decided which yet - we want to keep the main program from having too many features) - it will basically set up the instance for you, though you still won't be able to edit the instance side on a vertex/edge/face level. At this point we believe it would introduce too many complications to our clean instance model. Some other goodies on the way (and you know it won't be long at all until we release 1.02 and the character tools plugin);) You can actually buy Silo now, though we're not officially announcing it as on sale until we send out a press release this weekend. There is a problem with purchasing from outside the US, which should be fixed by Saturday.

Shannon
08-29-2003, 07:17 AM
It will basically set up the instance for you, though you still won't be able to edit the instance side on a vertex/edge/face level. At this point we believe it would introduce too many complications to our clean instance model."

Regarding virtual mirror op.

Judging from the forum feedback and from my own modeling experience, this feature is so crucial that it merits a function seperate from your instancing model.

Add it as a plugin if its cumbersome. However, it seems that there shoud be a function written specifically for doing virtual mirror that would allow you edit on the component level.

Think of it as a function seperate from your instancing setup. I think this, along with your other breakthroughs, would put you head and shoulders above apps like wings and not that your plan is to compete with these expensive packages, but even ahead of Maya and XSI in the poly modeling dept.

negative9
08-29-2003, 08:31 AM
- Tumble needs to tumble around the object or center, not some offset unknown point

- Some type of Flatten (wings-like) command (maybe it is called something different?

- View Reset (Already being addressed)

- An indication of what tool (more so for selection mode) your in. Selections Modes are the most revealant. I think wings is the best here...Edges/Verts increase in that mode, cage highlings inFace mode ect.
-- And a visual indication to what perspective your on.

- On that note some way to quickly deselect the current tool your working with. I'll be the the poly-tool and I want to deselect it, but not realy select anything in particular - usually I draw out a plain, tumble the view and seem to acidently click on the screen and WHAM my plain is screwed. I like the Wings-way, once youve completed an action right click temanates and brings you back to global key/button settings (ie Right-click menu)

- The Split Tool needs a way to termanate at a begining split. Like if I was going to draw a triange on a box, when I go to close the triangle - rather than connect to the closing point it creates a point right next to the point I click on.

- Some way to cut the geomentry. Like Edge cut (may be there somewhere)

HOW DO you fill a hole???

Those are a few of the things that stood out for me.

Minor...very minor...down the road changes to the cosmetics of the program I'd make - like having your dialog boxes, such as the shortcut keys, General options, ect, have the look of the main program rather than that generic windows look.

BazC
08-29-2003, 08:39 AM
Thanks Jamchild, excellent news! - Baz

bored alien
08-29-2003, 09:06 AM
Hi negative9, I think many of the things you want already seem to be in there, although maybe in a slightly different form.

-According to the help, the view rotates around the manipulator center. (Or the last place the manipulator center was at, which is maybe why it seemed random.)

- To Flatten, I believe you can just select the components you want, open the numerical editor, and enter 0 for the scale in whichever direction you're interested in.

- Look at the position of the face/vertex centers to see what selection mode you're in. Also, you can change the colors for each mode if you want it to be more obvious.

- It's a little tough to tell, but there are colored center lines on the grid pointing in the X, Y, and Z directions to show you which plane that grid is, so they are different colors depending on which camera you're using.

- I tried drawing a triangle on an object, and I just had to put the third point a little bit away from the first point on the edge and then drag it (before letting go of the mouse button) over to the first point. If you drag as far as you can, it makes one point.

- Not sure what you mean by cut the geometry. Split Face Loop, the Split tool, and Connect... are any of those like what you mean?

- Fill a hole by selecting all the points and pressing p to make a polygon from the selected vertices.

Anyway, not everything is in there, but I think Silo does a pretty good job with some of these things. :) Cheers!

lowkey
08-29-2003, 09:53 AM
well, one major thing i really don't like about silo is the inability to undo a partial action, without having to complete the whole, undo and start again.

example:

when working with the split or append tool, i can't undo a single step and go back to where i was before i placed the point.

i always have to perform the action, undo it as a whole, reselect the tool and start over. that's very annoying.

another thing that bugs me is that it seems nearly impossible to append polys without moving the selected vertices. why's that? it would be great to select an append-point without accidently applying transformations to it. maybe via MMB-click?

anyway, silo's doin' a great job for a 1.0 release, though i'm missing some essentials like 'frame view on current selection', 'bevel vertex', etc.

easy
08-29-2003, 10:42 AM
Sorry I haven’t gone through the help file, I haven’t had time but a few things I would like to see in the Silo. Apologies if they have been addressed.

Not sure if this has been mentioned but what if i wanted to rotate something 90 degrees. Is there a way to do this precisely? There seems to be no indication by how much I have rotated something and no keyboard entry. The other thing I would like to see which I haven’t seen would be the addition of Units so I can move things in any direction by so many centimetres, inches and feet, metres etc.

I think to tumble round a point of interest the target for the camera/perspective view should be the selection or object the user is editing/viewing and not the manipulator tool. The camera target can snap to various parts of a model more quickly with a keyboard shortcut than having to manually move the view to the point of interest. Even to frame all in the scene would be a helpful shortcut if there isn’t one.

If I can easily edit geometry with some of the fundamental poly editing tools, some of which Silo has already has, ie connect edges / verts, cap/fill, extrude edges / poly’s / along spline, mirror, soft select, slice/cut, attach/detach, chamfer & bevel….etc then with all these it will be a superb application.

Things are looking positive for this SILO.

lowkey
08-29-2003, 10:47 AM
Not sure if this has been mentioned but what if i wanted to rotate something 90 degrees. Is there a way to do this precisely?

well, all those things for accurate transformations are to be found in the numeric editor (default hotkey: 'n').

personally, i like the idea of putting the camera's point of interest to the center of the manipulator. the only thing i really miss (and i know i'm a redundant bastard on this one!) is some 'frame all/current' option! :drool:

jval
08-29-2003, 01:23 PM
negative9:
>Tumble needs to tumble around the object or center, not some offset unknown point

I had a similar problem. Tumbling was extremely slow and seemed to revolve around some unknown point. Then I discovered that I had accidentally turned on the Walkthrough mode. Once I turned this off I could tumble like a mad demon ... and so could my Silo object.

BinarySoup
08-29-2003, 03:24 PM
well, from what little I've tried it, it feels fast and responsive, although I find it strange that they have based modeler interface 'feel' on Maya, instead of say Mirai/Nendo/Wings, which are generally considered the most intuitive polygon modelers. one major gripe though, is with the instancing. when I use instances, it is to be able to work on a low poly cage and see the subdivided result in realtime, without having geometry cluttering the subdivided mesh. this works fine in silo, except that I can't have separate subdivision settings for original and instance. it would be great if I could work with the original without any subdivision at all as it is much easier to select verts there, and see the result in the instance at a high subdivision level, is there some way to do this in silo? maybe I'm just missing it.

apart from that it seems to be a great modeler in the making, and with the upcoming character modeling toolset this could well be the next app I buy, as modo is still far off and I really need a modeler app that has the best of two worlds, instead of jumping between wings and lightwave as I am doing now.

negative9
08-29-2003, 03:30 PM
ALL@ bored alien, thanx for the comments on my concerns, but a few things.

- The camera/tumble still seems off to me (I'm NOT in walkthrough mode). If i'm modeling in perspective mode (90% of the time) after a few rotations my geomentry ends up on one of the deges of the screen rather than centered - Centering on the manipulater is fine, but it doesn't seem to do that. I had thought I had seen an option to pick from a few different tumble type - maybe I just need to change the type - if I did see that.

- I'll have to give your Flatten method a try, but I'd still like a one-click method that doesn't take me away from the workflow. I use Flatten Normal quite a bit in wings - I thought it may just be called something different in Silo. A great Idea would be to have someway to creat your own commands based on a series of commands you do - I think Maya does this, and the only reason I mention it is that it would had to the customization of this program 10 fold, since customization seems to be what this app revolves around.

Look at the position of the face/vertex centers to see what selection mode you're in. Also, you can change the colors for each mode if you want it to be more obvious.

Ok, a little dark, but if you can change the color then that would work - except for Edge Selection Mode (out of box) doest seem to illistrate what mode your in, and this is where I was having the problems - I didn't know if I was in ege selection mode or in a tool, when I thought I was in one - I was really in the other. Some tools have Indicators, it is the ones that don't that I'm talking about.

For grid indicators tellling you what facing your on, yes they are there and yes the are near impossible to see - especially when you up close and personal with your model.

The triangle thing worked GREAT! thanx.

On cutting the Geomentry, I mean spliting a cube into two seperate objects.

Thanx for the filling in the HOLE method.

//negative9//

SheepFactory
08-29-2003, 04:44 PM
Glad to hear virtual mirror and tweak are being implemented!


I hope you guys work out the workflow issues soon thats what holding me back from using the software at the moment.


a couple MUST have things in Silo before anything else are :

-Raycast selection (like in wings)

-Lasso selection

-Slide (http://members.lycos.co.uk/clacos/Slide.html)

-Flatten selected in the chosen axis


Better magnet tools (i would like to be able to select one vertex\face and have a dropoff on the neighbour vetrex's from that selected vertex. And this should be usable with the tweak mode. Also A visual falloff indicator is necessary , a numerical falloff input box is not exactly intuitive and gets us out of the flow of modelling.


If you add those you are right up there with wings , add to that the open geometry support of SILO and the speed of the sub-d's and you have a winner.

Best ,
Ali

negative9
08-29-2003, 05:48 PM
If the tumble in Silo is going to be based off of the manipulator handles then the geomenty needs to be recentered every time you click on a selection, but this I fear will give an extremely jerky appearence.

JUST LOCK THE TUMBLE TO A LOCATION...a set-able location, and provide the current method as an optionial method - NOT DEFAULT.

Just my option.

As is I have to pan after every rotation = extra steps = slower workflow.

//negative9//

Shannon
08-29-2003, 06:00 PM
Lock the tumble to a location?

I think that the most intuitive and common way is rotation centered around the mouse, because regardless of where the manipulators happen to be, the mouse is where you are looking, this IS the point around which you wish to tumble. IMHO

BazC
08-29-2003, 11:59 PM
Wings has the best camera system I've used, in Wings the tumble is centred on the origin unless you have used the aim command in which case the selection which was used for aim is used for tumbe centre. Perfect! - Baz

Shannon
08-30-2003, 01:25 AM
Baz, you sir are correct.

lowkey
08-30-2003, 12:04 PM
that's all i ever wanted -> 'frame view on selected/all'! :buttrock:

rebo
08-30-2003, 01:29 PM
Aye, locking tumble to a location is definitely the best system.

tjnyc
08-30-2003, 07:16 PM
Finish model made in SILO of Jimi Hendrix. Thanks for taking a look. I only have 6 usage left.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=85201

Morph21
08-31-2003, 08:15 PM
Hi,

nice work tjnyc...how long need you to model it ?

I have made a button layout today but dont know if it is meaningful, haven´t really work yet with it.

I provide it for download if someone will test it, its only for four panel view an 1280x1024 yet, but if it works well i make also for single view an other resolutions.

How still being able to I improve it, it´s not finishing yet ?

thx for looking and tips.



Button Layout (http://www.morph21.de/fastflow1.jpg)

Ibox
09-01-2003, 08:01 PM
uh, ok, the zoom is now on the mmb, cool... I sure would like to see the dolly cam there as well ;)

I should also include that I am really pulling for Silo eh... I like widgit's, it's really that simple for me... just copy all of the tools Wings3D has and add widgits and voila...

I mean Wings is inspired after Nendo right?

and C4D has been slowly implimenting many of the same modeling tools found in Wings... So now take the best of all worlds and incorp to Silo...

I bring up C4D because I like having say the extrude tool active until I choose something different.. ;)

other than that I like all of the tools in Wings, but... since the creator of Wings has made it pretty clear that widgits won't be an option the ... well... go Silo go :D

Peter Reynolds
09-02-2003, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by Morph21


I have made a button layout today but dont know if it is meaningful, haven´t really work yet with it.

I provide it for download if someone will test it, its only for four panel view an 1280x1024 yet, but if it works well i make also for single view an other resolutions.

How still being able to I improve it, it´s not finishing yet ?

thx for looking and tips.



Button Layout (http://www.morph21.de/fastflow1.jpg)

A lot of those functions are better served as hotkeys rather than buttons. Screen clutter and un-needed buttons slow down your work flow and make it harder for you to become ONE with the machine.

Ibox
09-02-2003, 04:17 PM
Yea, I agree with too much clutter spoils the workflow, but...

I also think that not everyone interfaces with thier machine in the exact same ways eh...

those who have the "qwerty" thing down to a science will no doubt suggest that all life in 3D should be set up via "hotkeys",

then there are those such as myself who much prefer to utilize some hotkeys as well some icons along with widgits,

and then there are those who prefer as many icons as they can handle...

pretty much defines the various stages of personal developement within each of us... eh?

and... thus I think it is a good thing for app developers to keep in mind to provide as many options as possible in order to accomodate all, rather than to cater simply to one group and/or another...

Shannon
09-02-2003, 04:28 PM
Well, in Silo you have widgets, you have "icons" or buttons, and you have hotkeys.
So, I think theyve covered the bases for your needs and mine.

Shannon
09-03-2003, 07:27 AM
Just downloaded Silo 1.2
They certainly fixed a bunch of quirky workflow issues.

I don't quite understand the difference between the new implementation of instance mirror and the older instance with the -x scale. Is there a difference?

Anyhow, I really like this app and will buy it next week.

I have only this one issue with the prog right now. The manipulators are tough to select. You can only grab them by the arrow tip. If you miss the first time, you lose your selection. Very frustrating.

Personally, I'd like to see them pickable anywhere along their "shaft", and even within the general quadrant of the axis you are shooting for.

Xsi has a nice implementation of this.
As you mouse over the quadrants between the arrows on the manipulator, you get a little popup telling you which axis you're about to grab, XY, YZ or in the middel, XYZ.
And of course if you're directly over an arrow, you see either x, y, z.

Also, it would be nice to have a mode where selections stay active untill you hit a key to release them.

Another nice idea. You make an edge selection, and switch to object mode then back to edge mode, your selection is stil intact. This would be handy.

The biggy is the manipulator's selectability. Its gotta change.
Anyone else agree on this one?

Hope this makes sense to the powers that be.

Ibox
09-03-2003, 07:55 AM
Well... at first I see the new repeat option and start to get all giddy eh, then I quickly realize that this is somewhat defeatest eh... I mean say I extrude something... hmmm, do I hit c which I have opted to use for repeat, or do I simply use z because my finger was already there from the op before... too funny... just make the tools remain active until I choose another... this way I just select say a face, choose extrude and do so, then I choose another face and simply keep pulling those extrudes eh...

lowkey
09-03-2003, 08:43 AM
considering their new offering, i wonder how much nevercenter would charge for updates, if one doesn't participate before september 13th?!

i mean the main application is already to be purchased for 109$... :shrug:

markdc
09-03-2003, 09:11 AM
Originally posted by Shannon
Just downloaded Silo 1.2

The biggy is the manipulator's selectability. Its gotta change.
Anyone else agree on this one?

Hope this makes sense to the powers that be.

You can try increasing the mouse pick area under General Options (this may help).


My main problem with this app is that I can't set the mouse controls to be exactly the same as max (like you can in wings). I mainly want to use this as my second modeler on my laptop, but I don't want to use different mouse controls. I think most people here are using (or thinking of using) silo in a similiar fashion, so I hope this will be addressed.

negative9
09-03-2003, 09:42 AM
@Shannon

I have only this one issue with the prog right now. The manipulators are tough to select. You can only grab them by the arrow tip. If you miss the first time, you lose your selection. Very frustrating.

Options > General Options > MousPickArea

I think that's what you want. I had trouble getting the manipulators at first, but I changed the setting from 6 to 10 now it works good! Also in Display options you can increase the size of the Manipulator handles!

They fixed my biggest bug with the program, which was the Tumble Manipulator Rotation with an extra option for "Frame Selection", which also provides a way to reset the view...Excellent work!

For the new mirror adjustments it appears that rather than creating duplicate objects, as the origial Intaces did, it now does a kind of virtual mirror (as called in Wings), but only the original side is select/editable. It will take some time to get use to. You can then create an Instance of a part of the Mirror?

I like the new Right-Click Edit/Create Menus, but are the customizable?

I just found that if you hold down the ctrl key you enter a Tweak-like (Wings3d) mode - But you have to let go of the control button to select another vert/edge/face - unlike in wing3d. This could be streamlined better!

Great progress. Still needs:

- Selection/Deselection between selection modes streamlined for faster workflow - Wings-like (RayCast?) would be GREAT!

- A Flatten command (with normals/average)

- Some way to slice the model in two (I think I may just be missing the method needed)

- More Specific Tutorials on site.

A Bones/Deformers Plug-in!

//negative9//

Morph21
09-03-2003, 11:28 AM
I want configure my Mouse Buttons how i want, also 4 or 5 Button Mouses.

And a tool with that you can divide off Faces or what ever and make a new object off it.

Shannon
09-03-2003, 05:16 PM
Thanks for the suggestions on the manipulator handles thing.

Unfortunatly, none of that will really help with this problem.

If you increase the Pick Area option, you'll find that it also applies to picking verts and edges on your model. So, increasing this even a bit, much less enough to make manipulator selection comfortable and reliable, it becomes difficult to select a single vert on a dense model.

Increasing the size of the manipulator does selectabliltiy on the tips of the arrows, but who needs giant manipulators. Thats more for visiblilty.

They need to increase the pick area of the actual trident to include the shafts.

Don't get me wrong. I like this app and plan to buy it. I can still use the manipulator just fine. But, not as quickly and reliably as in most other apps. I'm fairly certain that it's just some sort of oversight, and it will be changed soon enough.

Am I the only one that's had difficulty with this? Or am I really as strange as my friends claim.

AmbientLight
09-03-2003, 06:51 PM
Shannon,

No, you're not the only one. If you re-read previos posts, other people including myself had difficulties with manipulators. I also pointed to XSI 3.5 implementation of manipulators. As far as I remember the help file states that Silo is all about manipulators. This is very unfortunate that they are not as comfortable as they could (should) be.

Thalaxis
09-03-2003, 06:56 PM
NeverCenter is certainly doing a good job of responding to user
requests. If they keep that up, this ought to turn into quite a nice
product.

Does anyone know whether the plugin packs are cost-added
optional add-ons (the ones that are mentioned, at least), or are
they going to be freebie optional add-ons?

melchior_
09-04-2003, 06:27 AM
I just found that if you hold down the ctrl key you enter a Tweak-like (Wings3d) mode - But you have to let go of the control button to select another vert/edge/face - unlike in wing3d. This could be streamlined better!
Actually, if you deselect everything, then hold down ctrl key, you can keep tweaking on different faces/edge/vert without having to let go of ctrl.
I haven't used Wings, but it performs like LW drag tool except it works on faces and edges as well as being able to tweak using rotation and scale. :beer:

lowkey
09-04-2003, 12:08 PM
btw, did anybody notice that silo's axis do not fit the standard color sceme of X/Y/Z = R/G/B!?

it seems to be:
X=Green / Y=Red / Z=Green.:hmm:

is this a bug or what?! did i miss something!?

strange! :eek:

Peter Reynolds
09-04-2003, 12:17 PM
Any updated timeframes for the linux and mac versions?

evan
09-04-2003, 12:42 PM
Wow, thanks guys for all the info. Silo is pretty cool. Seriously thinking of buying it.

jval
09-04-2003, 01:31 PM
After just a few hours of playing with Silo I knew I wanted it. I've played around a bit with 3D modeling but am still a beginner. Perhaps it is because of my novice status but Silo is one of the few modeling programs that I can actually understand LOL! I do like Wings3D but Silo fills a number of gaps quite nicely. Not only is it very affordable but Nevercenter has already shown themselves to be very responsive and open to suggestion. Early adopters will even get a free update to version 2 when it arrives. I've been trying to buy Silo almost from the first day it went on sale but they are still having trouble with their international purchase system. Apparently that could be solved today.

Of course Silo is not perfect and there are a number of changes/additions I'd like to see. But a company cannot survive without income and I want to be sure that Nevercenter stays around to futher improve and develop Silo. Nonetheless, Silo is eminently useable as is and I think buying it now is a cheap investment in my 3D modeling future.

lowkey
09-04-2003, 02:11 PM
ok, a few little things that bug me:

right now direct conversion of an edge-ring selection into faces is not possible! :eek:

when having selected the ring, one's always got to convert to vertices first, which is really inconvenient.

another thing to mention:

'repeat last command' doesn't work like i expected it to.

for example, repeating a connect isn't possible for selecting components is already considered a repeatable action.

maybe 'repeat last tool' would be more suitable?! :shrug:

last but not least:
some 'flatten' function or snapping-modes would be nice too!

:buttrock:

Shannon
09-04-2003, 02:20 PM
lol, havent tried that, but yea, last tool would make a bit more sense.

I wonder if they have any veteran modelers on their dev team.

Morph21
09-04-2003, 05:36 PM
I want buy it too but dont have Creditcard an cant register me.

lowkey
09-04-2003, 07:42 PM
ask someone with a credit card to purchase for you...! :)

negative9
09-04-2003, 08:45 PM
@melchior_

I stand corrected! Now the Tweak/Drag/whatever-Tool works like I've come to expect. Thanx.

@lowkey

I thought the color schme on the directonal axis seemed off. I'd really like a float x/y/z at the end of the axis point for better orientation, as well as type in some corner of the screen to say which facing your on - Perspective, Front, Left Side, ect. The colors seem to blend in to the background, and the lines are short and easily obscured by the modeling your working with.

@Thalaxis

I agree that the Nevercenter is doing a good job, and supporting them so they stay around is the best way to keep them around and improving this VERY potentually competent modeler. I say 'potentually' because there are still a few glitches and workflow issues to be addressed (listed on this forum), they are having problems with thier online buying system(?), They still need a decaded forum on thier site to further inform the thier prospective buyers of whats happening, and the addressing of how thier business model is going to work - ie how much, if anything, are plugins going to cost, when is the SDK going to be released, are they going to have sections (that seem to have started) for uplated diffent peoples button set-up, keyboard short cuts ect...?

//negative9//

Thalaxis
09-04-2003, 08:49 PM
-9 --

I think they'd be better served with a forum here, rather than
expending resources on their own; it has the added benefit of
making it easier for people who use complementary software to
find out about it.

Companies like NeverCenter usually rely on word of mouth for
marketing (because marketing is expensive otherwise), and the
shorter the distance the word has to travel, the more likely it is
to arrive :)

negative9
09-05-2003, 12:12 AM
but I still think they need a dedicated forum/sticky somewhere. Like a development listings. As now I'm not sure if the most of Silo's talk is here or on other forums like cgchat, rendrosity, ect...

I'd like them to designate where they are going to post replyable information to. If it is here then great...but on there Fourms link they need a link to this page.

//negative9//

ambient-whisper
09-05-2003, 12:39 AM
you guys want me to make a new thread that will deal with the development of silo?( ill make it a sticky ) right now its way too new a product to make a new forum here. ( personally i feel cgtalk is getting a bit bloated with forums already.. ) so if you guys and the developers give me a go. ill setup a thread+sticky for ya.

Ibox
09-05-2003, 12:48 AM
-aw-, that would be a very cool idea... sure save looking for the thread... though it usualy is near the top anyhoo :D

jamchild
09-05-2003, 01:39 AM
Sounds good to us - we'll follow the new thread wherever you put it. We get LOTS of good information from cgtalk forums (as you have hopefully noticed) :)

tjnyc
09-05-2003, 01:57 AM
Today a sticky! Tomorrow the world! :scream:

ambient-whisper
09-05-2003, 02:10 AM
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=86295

done. at the top of the modelling forum. have fun.

Thalaxis
09-05-2003, 05:46 AM
Cool! Thanks, Ambient!

ronniemcbride
09-05-2003, 05:53 AM
I created a bottle and I tried to import it into my 3d application as a .3ds file. when I get it in my object has lost all it subdivision surface information . it come in it's polygon state.

Am I doing something wrong?

I using Electric Image Universe 5.0

Thalaxis
09-05-2003, 06:01 AM
I haven't played with Universe5, but in v4, you'd take a mesh, and
apply an UberNURBS modifier, which would turn it into an SDS
control cage?

If you've used LW, it's the equivalent of pressing "tab", or the
Cinema4D equivalent of dropping a mesh into a HyperNURBS
object.

That ought to do the trick.

Another possibility is that you could use the 'refine mesh' operator
in Silo before you export the mesh, in which case you would be
exporting the subdivided mesh, rather than the control cage that
generated it.

I hope that helps!

I haven't tried it myself (yet), so I'm not certain that this will work,
but it seems like it ought to :)

lowkey
09-05-2003, 06:48 AM
I created a bottle and I tried to import it into my 3d application as a .3ds file. when I get it in my object has lost all it subdivision surface information . it come in it's polygon state.

you'll have to 'refine' your control mesh before exporting it anywhere! :)

ronniemcbride
09-05-2003, 07:08 AM
I am new to this program but I like it I understand alot of people been complainig about work flow but I a newbie so all I got to say it rocks . since I don't know any better I like to seee what going on while I modeling I like how this one works for the price i guess

thx guys gosh I new it was something I was not doing right

Can anyone refer me to some good links on polygon modeling or box modeling techniques. I need to learn how to do this stuff right

thx

Ron

lowkey
09-05-2003, 07:58 AM
just search the forums on cgtalk and you'll definitely find a lot! :thumbsup:

the tutorial section on wings3d.com and the wings3d developer forum contain some valuable info either.

jval
09-05-2003, 01:27 PM
Nevercenter has just set up a Paypal account so I, as a non-US resident, can now purchase Silo. I just did so can confirm that the purchasing system now works for international users.

Those of you without credit cards can also purchase via Paypal providing that you have a bank chequing account.

Morph21
09-05-2003, 04:05 PM
Hm i think for PayPal need you also a credit card.

lowkey
09-05-2003, 04:08 PM
unfortunately: yes! :thumbsdow

jval
09-05-2003, 04:11 PM
>Hm i think for PayPal need you also a credit card.

Well, I've always used a credit card with Paypal so I'm not sure about the procedure for paying by cheque. However, Paypal's page at http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/ema/index-outside
claims you can send money to anyone with an email address.

I only posted this because someone said earlier in the thread that they did not have a card.

melchior_
09-07-2003, 04:21 AM
http://www.rendernode.com/articles.php?articleId=78

Rendernode magazine has a review of Silo :)

lowkey
09-07-2003, 08:29 AM
for all non-US-residents without credit cards, i got this confirmation from payPal:

If you would like to pay someone from the 'Send Money' tab rather than
from the form that they provide, you may do so. What you would need to
do is contact the seller to find out the email address they want the
payment sent to and any other information you may need to order the
item. Below I have included instructions on how to use the 'Send
Money' tab in your PayPal account.

It's easy to send money using PayPal to anyone with an email address.
The recipient does not even need to have an account previously
established!

:thumbsup:

spakman
09-07-2003, 10:40 AM
Peter, I'm rilly liking this app's flowology... :drool:

I've got a ton of questions (most of which are prolly already answered - I haven't read this thread or any help files yet), and possible suggestions. Gonna investigate further....

...off the top of my head, is there any way to import the big M's marking menu prefs into Silo? I recall Soft having its own version of AW's mouse-motion-madness back in the day (when Phoenix Tools was the master sub-D-raster ;) ).

peace d=^)

SheepFactory
09-07-2003, 10:59 PM
Are there any snap tools in Silo? ,

Ibox
09-07-2003, 11:13 PM
I dunno myself, but I do know there is a sticky thread up top of the modeling forum here for further questions regarding the developement of said app :D

SheepFactory
09-08-2003, 12:50 AM
yes i am aware of the development thread ,

but i was wondering if silo already has snaps before I go over there and say "add snaps!"



so does Silo have snaps? , i cant find it in the help files.

Ibox
09-08-2003, 01:06 AM
I don't really think there is eh, I mean I can't find any reference of em either there Sheep... oh, and I believe that ambient light has also requested snaps in said sticky thread, to which I don't believe that this was addressed by Jamchild in any further post's, so... ask again I say :D

AmbientLight
09-08-2003, 05:07 AM
I actually don't remember whether it was me or somebody else who asked about it :)

No, there's no snap. That was first thing I looked for when I played with line tool. You can also have only world greed on XZ. I hope that in the future updates they will eventually include construction planes, snap onto geometry. Right now you can load a scene as a reference. But it's not too useful, because you can't snap on it. Shrinkwrap would even be nicer but that's too much to ask I guess.

Personally I haven't bought Silo, yet. I'm seriously considering it, because I don't really feel too comfortable with Wings but I'd really like to have another modeler that I can install on different workstation or take with me on the road.

melchior_
09-08-2003, 05:56 AM
maybe that'll make it into the architectural tools plug-in.
Can't imagine doing it without easy snapping, measurements, alignment tools, etc.

ronniemcbride
09-08-2003, 01:30 PM
I think it it should be in theregular toolset maybe tere a diffrence of advance snapping feature and generat snapping. But I think there should be some form of snapping. IMHO

-Ron

ronniemcbride
09-10-2003, 04:35 PM
Version 1.03 is available and 40 more uses included

and a new tutorial

lowkey
09-10-2003, 05:56 PM
i just finished an architectural-style model today and it was a big pain due to the lack of snapping, flatten and such.

i always had to reset every vertex numerically to fit symmetry.

IMHO, it has to be part of the main program for it's essential to all kind of modelling task.

:annoyed:

jamchild
09-10-2003, 06:22 PM
Yeah, we agree over here - we're looking into a good clean snapping model, and flatten should be easy to throw in :)

lowkey
09-10-2003, 07:47 PM
cool, great news...you guys rock! :buttrock:

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