CGTalk - Head: Wip

flyingP

08-20-2003, 06:01 PM

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
Just a couple more angles. Feel kinda silly just posting a nose. Oh well. -- 3d_e

Helps though noses are a bugger.
the nostrills really are a bit thin at the moment, and watch that symetry object that line is always a bit distracting, otherwise it's not bad.

ODoul

08-20-2003, 06:04 PM

Thanks P, Yea, I'll thicken up the nostrils. You are talking about the thickness of the nostril wall on the outside of the nose, right? And about that symetry line, what's the best way to get rid of that, Is it just a matter of moving the points? -- 3d_e

flyingP

08-20-2003, 06:12 PM

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
Thanks P, Yea, I'll thicken up the nostrils. You are talking about the thickness of the nostril wall on the outside of the nose, right? And about that symetry line, what's the best way to get rid of that, Is it just a matter of moving the points? -- 3d_e

More the inside of the nostrel, my best tip would be, use a mirror.
As to the symetry object increase the tolerance I'm using 0.1m on my figure, depends on how close your points are in the middle, play a bit with it.
cheers

grstovell

08-20-2003, 08:10 PM

this is what I meant by a 'thicker' nostril....

just so that when he blows his nose, he doesn't loose part of his face!:)

O, and yeah.. i second that. I'd use the mirror function. It makes models so much more interesting.

-g

pit

08-20-2003, 08:26 PM

To get rid of the seam select all points in question and go to Structure->Set value-> 0 on X-axis and you´re done.

flyingP

08-20-2003, 08:43 PM

Originally posted by the Rev.

O, and yeah.. i second that. I'd use the mirror function. It makes models so much more interesting.

-g

Heh heh, actually I ment use a real mirror, one is ones own best reference for such things.

Cool tip pit by the way, will note that one down as well myself. Love this forum.

grstovell

08-20-2003, 08:48 PM

a REAL mirror?????

Boy! I need to turn the computer off once in a while.

-g

ODoul

08-20-2003, 09:56 PM

Hey! Thanks guys, I love this forum too. He has lips! (at least he's starting to) -- 3d_e

bobtronic

08-20-2003, 10:03 PM

I think its a good start. Do want a hyperreal look ?
Than you have to add some more details.

Bob

ODoul

08-20-2003, 10:39 PM

Thanks Bob! I imagine I'll add more detail after the model is complete. It started as just a basic modeling exercise and has turned into, well, something else, I guess. It's going to be a challenge to finish. I typically don't have the patience for this type of thing. Maybe incorporate some details thru textures also. Thanks again! -- 3d_e

Cartesius

08-20-2003, 11:11 PM

Looks like it's coming along nicely :) Keep an eye on the distance between the nose and the upper lip, it might just be a tad too long as it is now. Also, the nose appears to be very delicate compared to the lips but that might be due to the angle.

/Anders

ODoul

08-20-2003, 11:46 PM

Thank you, Cartesius, for your input. I suspect that you are correct. It does have a rather androgenous look at the moment. I'm hoping that the bone structure of the face will rectify the feminine appearance as of yet. I am using visual reference of a rather rugged chap that apparently isn't coming across yet. Thanks again! -- 3d_e

ODoul

08-21-2003, 04:23 AM

I have the geometry for the eyes incorporated into the main model and I know there are detail issues with them. Just seeing if anyone has any other suggestions. Also, am I going about this in the right manner? I'm flying by the seat of my pants here. My first head, ya know. I have no idea where things will meet but I'm hoping for the best. I'll stop bumping this thread when I get the major hard parts done (ie. lips, nose, eyes and ears) Thanks! -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/nosey4.jpg

ndat

08-21-2003, 06:23 AM

Argggg... Thats really good *sigh* humans are really difficult to model. LOl, you wouldnt think so with how much material ther is the help you out :). I dont know what to say except that it looks really good and will turn out great if you keep it up.

Your progress is really uniqe I've never seen a face modeled this way, what tutorials if any are you following?

And did your last picture change? I could have sworn it was a front veiw the last time I checked the thread...

Good work as always 3d_e, keep it up and your on your way to a fan base lol :p.

ODoul

08-21-2003, 06:30 AM

Wow, a fan base? Imagine that. I've been drawing for years now and just decided to take up 3D on a whim. I think it helps alot to have a solid foundation in the "classic" tools of art. I'm not following any tutorials here. I've just taken 2 shots of a friend of mine, one from the front and one from the side. I'm using them as reference and just pushing and pulling vertices around until I get what I'm looking for. I'm also using the Iron plug-in alot to smooth things out a bit. I've studied the works and tutorials of MANY artists though so I have a basic idea of what I'm trying to achieve here. Of course, it's slow going because it's point by point. My pics have been changing without adding additional posts because my web server just overwrites my previous post every time I upload it. I was starting to feel bad about bumping this thread to the top every time I uploaded an update. Thanks again, ndat! Take it easy. -- 3d_e

pit

08-21-2003, 06:41 AM

Hi 3D_E,

don´t forget to post a wire once in a while - it´ll be easier to help you then.

ODoul

08-21-2003, 06:47 AM

AARRGGHH! I knew someone would ask for a wire. It's a triangle haters nightmare but here it is. -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/nosey6.jpg

flyingP

08-21-2003, 07:33 AM

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
. I've been drawing for years now and just decided to take up 3D on a whim. I think it helps alot to have a solid foundation in the "classic" tools of art.

Ditto.

That mesh could end up being fun if you're planning to move it I feel. Have you checked out the topology thread in the modeling forum, you might just find it useful.

ODoul

08-21-2003, 07:51 AM

Oh crap! Now I can see that I have to start over. WAY to many polys in mine. Who would know that detail could be achieved with so little. Back to the drawing board. -- 3d_e

ps. I like the "spiral" around the ear.

so much to learn, so few brain cells left.

AdamT

08-21-2003, 02:07 PM

It's frustrating, but don't worry too much about starting over. I'm still not a great head modeler, but I find that with each new attempt it becomes much easier.

grstovell

08-21-2003, 02:37 PM

I like it though....

I don't think that the problem is that there are way too many polys (I don't think it's very heavy IMO)... rather, if you compare the wires to the heads in the topology thread, you'll find that yours looks kind'a "griddy" (is that a word?)... the wires don't necessarilly follow the muscle structure of the cheeks and forehead for example.

O, and the point by point method... I use that one all the time when modeling a face... it can be a pain to finish a head that way, but I like it better. (much more control ... at least for me)

-g

ODoul

08-21-2003, 03:57 PM

I think that "griddy" should be officially added to Websters. :) I can't think of a better way to describe it either. I don't think I'll start completely over, I'll salvage what I can from this and scrap the griddy part. Thanks! -- 3d_e

ndat

08-21-2003, 06:35 PM

:) grrrrr... I always seem to need tutorials...

As for too many polies I disagree your doing fine although you are very right when you say it could be done in less. With the addition of hyper nurb weighting it can be easier as well.

I find it funny that your gonna start over even though you got really good results, you should see some of my head attempts lol.

ODoul

08-21-2003, 06:55 PM

Oh, it would probably be easier if I followed a tutorial but seems I always have to do things the hard way.:surprised I haven't decided definitively if I'm going to start over yet. Maybe I'll delete a few polys that are getting unrully. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and this is one sloppy mesh, for sure. After seeing the topology thread in the modeling forum, I was a bit discouraged but it didn't last long. I'll probably proceed with how I'm doing it and work on simplifying the mesh on my NEXT head. Thanks again. Hey, why don't you show us some of your attempts, you could post them in this thread, that would be OK. -- 3d_e

flyingP

08-21-2003, 08:14 PM

Sorry 3d_e, I have the feeling I ruined your day a bit with my post this morning, really was not my intention, sorry mate, If it makes you feel any better I too have also thrown out heaps of models over the last few years now, and I have still to do a passable head, the main thing is to keep at it.

cheers

ODoul

08-21-2003, 08:17 PM

No problem P, I had an idea that I was going about it wrongly as soon as I started pieceing the parts together. Actually, it's been a great learning experience. I'm more encouraged than discouraged. Now I know that I can actually do it, there is no looking back. ;) -- 3d_e

flyingP

08-21-2003, 08:22 PM

Yeah sort of gets you hooked after a while what, especially when you know it is possible.

bobtronic

08-21-2003, 08:28 PM

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
I'm more encouraged than discouraged. Now I know that I can actually do it, there is no looking back. ;) -- 3d_e

Yeah, thats the spirit :)

Bob

grstovell

08-21-2003, 08:40 PM

hey! There's an idea!

How about a thread where we post either our first head, next to our most recent head !

That would be fun so see (and I bet we would all be blown away by Thirdeye's first head!!!!!!!... but who cares!!!!)

-g

flyingP

08-21-2003, 09:29 PM

Originally posted by the Rev.
hey! There's an idea!

How about a thread where we post either our first head, next to our most recent head !

That would be fun so see (and I bet we would all be blown away by Thirdeye's first head!!!!!!!... but who cares!!!!)

-g

A sort of life's most embarrassing moments thread huh? could be ammusing though.

ndat

08-21-2003, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
Oh, it would probably be easier if I followed a tutorial but seems I always have to do things the hard way.:surprised I haven't decided definitively if I'm going to start over yet. Maybe I'll delete a few polys that are getting unrully. I'm a bit of a perfectionist and this is one sloppy mesh, for sure. After seeing the topology thread in the modeling forum, I was a bit discouraged but it didn't last long. I'll probably proceed with how I'm doing it and work on simplifying the mesh on my NEXT head. Thanks again. Hey, why don't you show us some of your attempts, you could post them in this thread, that would be OK. -- 3d_e

Yeah I seem to do everything the hard way too :), its just its never worked for me in 3d lol...

Hmm... it isnt like crazy slopy or anything :), but Ive seen cleaner. If I were you I would just take a while to fix things up :).

Ive been hearing people talk about this topology do you have the link Ive been searching but havent had any luck.

you want me to show you lol :p well ok heres my second attempt. Its not finished, I just started it. Oh and go ahead and laugh I know I am :) lol... OH yeah its suppose to be female, oh my I'm pathetic :) ROTFL.

ODoul

08-21-2003, 10:11 PM

Hmmmm.....you've got the right shape, it looks like. Nothing to laugh about really, it's still in the early stages. I think it's easier to focus on one part first (ie: the nose, mouth, ears or eyes) instead of going gung-ho on the whole head. Although, look at my mesh, maybe that's not the right approach.:surprised The topology thread is a sticky in the modeling forum, I think. I found it right away. Maybe there was a link in this thread somewhere, I can't remember. There are a couple pics of the way I think the mesh should look. Very elegant and well thought out. Basically, it looked like a loose helix that started at the ear and worked its way around the head. It was cool and definately the way I'm planning on doing my next effort. Keep us updated on yours! -- 3d_e

ODoul

08-21-2003, 10:14 PM

Here ya go, there are a couple of dead links in there but it's pretty informative:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38469

3d_e

ODoul

08-22-2003, 07:12 PM

We have a chin! -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/nosey7.jpg

flyingP

08-22-2003, 07:38 PM

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
[B]We have a chin! -- 3d_e

and do we have a wire?

ODoul

08-22-2003, 07:51 PM

As requested, a wire. I havn't changed anything with the mesh. I think I'll just go with the flow. I think it's looking better. Still a few triangles but hey, what's life without a little chaos?? -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/nosey8.jpg

flyingP

08-22-2003, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
[B] Still a few triangles but hey, what's life without a little chaos?? -- 3d_e

Look closer 3d_e you should be able to get rid of a lot of those tri's quite easily, as to the chaos, yes I can understand that, just don't use it as an excuse to build up bad habits (you'll regret it later), actually the mesh is only realy a problem if you are planning to animate it anyway.

cheers

ODoul

08-22-2003, 08:12 PM

HA! You're funny. Animate it? I havn't even figured out how I'm going to texture it yet. Heh heh! I have Body Paint but havn't even opened the manual yet. It will definately be time to do that when I get the modeling done. -- 3d_e

flyingP

08-22-2003, 08:25 PM

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
HA! You're funny. Animate it? I havn't even figured out how I'm going to texture it yet. Heh heh! I have Body Paint but havn't even opened the manual yet. It will definately be time to do that when I get the modeling done. -- 3d_e

Yeah, I also have body paint, Shave, and Motion builder (although I have to update that, hell I even have to open the manual, they are all gathering dust) I know how you feel, I bought Cinema just when R6 came out and I can only now model a blasted shoulder for example, yippee (actually I "will" model the whole bloody thing although she is a killer).

ODoul

08-23-2003, 05:42 AM

Another small update before I go to bed. -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/nose22.jpg

bobtronic

08-23-2003, 06:01 AM

Nice progress. He looks very masculine. The only critique
so far is about the nose. You should maybe work out
the nostrils a little more. I think they are wide enough
but not high enough. Otherwise there are so much
variations in human faces that it is maybe only a question
of taste.

keep it on, Bob

ndat

08-23-2003, 06:54 AM

:P wow 3d_e looking nice

argg those links you gave me killed me for a bit, no really I died inside lol :P. I'm better now though, actually its given me the hope that I can significantly improve my work :).

Your guy is looking great, I don’t think I would be stupid in saying that this will turn out GREAT :). I do agree with the nose being odd, I looked at my nose (a nose which I consider to be very masculine lol ;)). And I noticed that there is a bulge where th bone is a ridge of sorts and then it goes down at more of a slope. I think your guy would benefit from that kinda look even if I cant explain it well :). Also I think the check bones and brow needs a bit of tweaking. Other than that great stuff, and your almost to the dreaded ear :surprised lol.

I started my head over. I debated doing it the way you do, but I didn’t :). I feel safer starting at the whole thing, probably because it’s the way we did it in sculpting class. When I get enough to show Ill post it in another thread instead of freeloading off of yours :p.

this is turning out nicely 3d_e, keep it up :).

man I shouldnt use so many smilies, anyone else have the prob of reaching smiley limits everytime you post? lol

ODoul

08-23-2003, 07:37 AM

Hey thanks guys! I'm not going to do all the "tweaking" until I get the mesh complete. I will work on the nose, brows and cheekbones. I see all the things I want to work on but would just like to get the foundation done. I'm avoiding the ears as long as I can. I really am dreading them. OK, NOW I go to bed.

3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/nose-33.jpg

ODoul

08-23-2003, 05:32 PM

Last update until the ears are finished. I promise. The mesh is still a bit bumpy I know but I'll fix it later. -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/head44.jpg

flyingP

08-23-2003, 05:56 PM

Originally posted by 3D_Explorer
The mesh is still a bit bumpy

Must be that blasted squirell 3d_e, the little sucker is still causing me problems too.
(sorry couldn't resist) keep working at it.

Cheers

ndat

08-24-2003, 05:44 AM

damn dude your making me look bad, lol...
heres the simplest way Ive found to make ears, its in the midle of the page and continues on. Take it with a grain of salt, but it might help :) http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~mimura/tutorials/index5_e.html .

neonghost

08-24-2003, 12:38 PM

I don't claim to be an expert on facial modeling, being in the process of my first head too, but through my own experiences so far I can make a few observations on the structure of your mesh.

It is worth looking at a few anatomical pictures of the muscular system beneath the face flesh, this gives a good basis to structure your edge loops around. Once these are in place, the process of filling the empty areas can approached in such a way to minimise density - at this stage for instance, your cheek areas are much too dense (if you tried to modify these areas to make your model more 'realistic' in terms of proportions, it'd be a huge job). Although you don't seem intent on animating this model, getting into good modeling habits improves workflow alot when you start your next head. You will also probably have difficulty when you add eye spheres, as your eyelids do not extend into the head, so you may run into clipping problems. This is easily fixed with a few egde loop bevels, though. Keep checking the topology thread for good references

keep it up though :thumbsup:

Martin Kay

08-25-2003, 10:10 AM

You seem to be getting on very well with this head, although there are a few minor issues anatomically, which I'm sure you can see anyway! The mesh is a tad heavy, but not as bad as my first effort. (the Tutankhamen mask) There are quite a few tutorials scattered around on ears. I found ears a problem with too few polys. (as per the tutorial on Maxon's Bunk's Messie girl) What is this 'iron' plug-in you mention. MK

bobtronic

08-25-2003, 10:30 AM

Originally posted by Martin Kay
What is this 'iron' plug-in you mention. MK

Its a pluginto smoothen your mesh or to get rid of unwanted
wrinkles. Very useful. I can't remember the homepage.

Bob

JamesMK

08-25-2003, 10:41 AM

Iron 2 can be found here -> http://www.the3ddesigner.de/index_en.html

Just click on 'Download' and check the right column under 'Free plugins'

I couldn't live without this one, for sure.

ODoul

08-25-2003, 06:28 PM

OK, here he is with partial ears. I know they still need work but it's the first one with ears that didn't make me want to hang my head in shame. -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/withears.jpg

flyingP

08-25-2003, 06:54 PM

just a first impression 3d_e but they look a bit pointed, although maybe it's the perspective. Otherwise they're pretty good.

cheers

ODoul

08-25-2003, 07:31 PM

Thanks P, yep, there's lots of room for improvement. They aren't even finished yet but they are the first set that actually resembled ears so I thought I would post. I can't wait to get this mesh finished so I can start fine tuning things. Then it's on to textures. Thanks! -- 3d_e

AdamT

08-25-2003, 07:39 PM

This looks pretty good. You definitely have a good eye for proportion and form. As far as the mesh structure, though, there's a lot of room for improvement. Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but you should absolutely check out the topology thread in the modeling forum. IMO it should be required reading for anyone attempting to model a head.

flyingP

08-25-2003, 07:56 PM

Originally posted by AdamT
Not sure if anyone has mentioned it, but you should absolutely check out the topology thread in the modeling forum.

Guilty.

Martin Kay

08-25-2003, 08:11 PM

Thanks for the link JamesMK!

ODoul

08-25-2003, 09:36 PM

Thanks Adam, yep, the topology thread was mentioned somewhere. I know the mesh is crap, it's been mentioned a few times. It's my first attempt at ANYTHING organic so I'm going to live with it this time. By the time I found out about it I was pretty far into it and just decided that my next head would be better. Thanks again. -- 3d_e

ODoul

08-28-2003, 03:33 PM

OK, well here's the latest version. I was sidetracked for a bit but decided to get back on it. There seem to be a couple of areas that I just can't get sorted out but I hope to be able to disguise them with texturing. Time to open the bodypaint manual, YIKES! thirdeye, if you happen to read this, did you use BP to texture the heads that you've done? -- 3d_e

http://members.fortunecity.com/explorer2004/headview.jpg

grstovell

08-28-2003, 04:18 PM

I like it!

overall it looks really good. I'd pull out the cheeks to the right and left of the nose bridge (just above the nostrils) just a tad...

do that and you'll end up with a really cool head.. ready to texture.

-g

ODoul

08-28-2003, 08:26 PM

Thanks rev! More bone structure? -- 3d_e

flyingP

08-28-2003, 10:46 PM

Not too sure about the way the ears are connecting to the head there 3d_e. although maybe a slight rotaion in "Z" (just the ears) might fix that.

ndat

08-28-2003, 11:18 PM

He looks great :) just fix those ears :p there a little off like FlyingP said, and it detracts from the overall figure. Also I think the side veiw of the nose should be a little diff, its just an asthetic thing both ways are possible, I dunno If I like what I'm suggesting better or not lol. I just thought if I went a head and made it I might as well post it LOL :).

Great work 3d_e, and good luck with BP god knows I havent had any :).