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pluMmet
11-30-2009, 09:12 PM
Hair Farm (http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/) demo is available and can be downloaded here (http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/download.php).

Here are some tutorials (http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/tutorials/)

Loads of new tools for creating hair, faster native rendering and the hair sims can be sent out to external renderers (which is a huge advantage over Max's built in hair solution.)

Cool cool stuff :thumbsup:

BColbourn
11-30-2009, 10:52 PM
the demo can't convert hair to poly :( This is unfortunate because there's so many light types that aren't supported by the system such as the vray and photometric lights. and then when a light does work, the hair-shadow options sometimes dont work depending on the renderer (raytraced and regular hair shadow maps work in vray, but do not work in mentalray).

I can see the full version being quite good, but this demo's restrictions really cripple it.

edit: got vray shadows to work by putting it as the secondary shadow map to the raytraced hair one.

pete
11-30-2009, 11:23 PM
This hair plugin is super cool, and being actively developed.
It has a really easy and powerful modeling work flow.
Unlike most other hair systems, it doesn't make me want to pull my own hair out :)

Definitely Check it out.

anishmations
12-01-2009, 02:01 AM
:bounce: Finally the demo is out!! :bounce:
Check out this cool gallery !
http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/gallery.php

The images in the site talks a lot about its power!

Everything about it is awesome, esp the hair modelling process is just revolutionary !

I was lucky to get my hands on it and I'd call it...."Most recommended !"

MikeNash
12-01-2009, 02:09 AM
Its shame photometric lights arn't supported.
I'm actually on beta for this, but just haven't had time to use it.

Shaghair (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_IaLzzs6XUdI/Sgpu1MbvIwI/AAAAAAAAAEk/DGL3nz1fZqY/s1600-h/Hair_Side.jpg) is still fav of mine :)

cresshead
12-01-2009, 02:22 AM
price?

free demo vids look good an so do the render times

mister3d
12-01-2009, 03:46 AM
I'm interested about the price too. The demo looks good. And when the final version will be released is also interesting. The absence of help files is a bit uncomfortable, but it's good there are some tutorials.
I was watching for this demo for a long time, and it looks really really good. It can render an hd frame with 800,000 hairs in 30 seconds, counting lights preparation and so on. And memory consumption is reasonable (3 gigs).
For some reason i can't get hairbrush modifier to work (to render), though combing in viewports is very comfortable and easy. And I can't ask anywhere how it works, that's a problem.
It's definitely much faster than hairfx, and more realistic, even just as it is.
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/6937/123km.th.jpg (http://img682.imageshack.us/i/123km.jpg/)

mister3d
12-01-2009, 03:53 AM
yes, its real fast indeed.. :)

The hairbrush modifier is a beginning step. it helps u align hair directions. you have to add the generate hair modifier on top of that to get hair that renders.

I know. I added a hairmesh brush modifier, but maybe it's not the right modifier. I simply want to comb hair. Adding hairgenerate on top isn't working, looks like it's not supposed to.

anishmations
12-01-2009, 03:54 AM
yes, its real fast indeed.. :)

For some reason i can't get hairbrush modifier to work (to render), though combing in viewports is very comfortable and easy. And I can't ask anywhere how it works, that's a problem.
It's definitely much faster than hairfx, and more realistic, even just as it is.
[/URL]
The hairbrush modifier is a beginning step. it helps u align hair directions. you have to add the generate hair modifier on top of that to get hair that renders.

BColbourn
12-01-2009, 05:56 AM
yes, its real fast indeed.. :)

The hairbrush modifier is a beginning step. it helps u align hair directions. you have to add the generate hair modifier on top of that to get hair that renders.

that seems silly and backwards since you have to use the generate hair modifier to get the hair to begin with right?

mister3d
12-01-2009, 07:14 AM
that seems silly and backwards since you have to use the generate hair modifier to get the hair to begin with right?

No, as it turns on hairs visibility in viewports, which is convienient to turn off sometimes. It all needs testing, but it looks sleek.

pluMmet
12-01-2009, 07:46 AM
I've edited my first post with a link to the manual.

lo
12-01-2009, 07:49 AM
Having beta tested it I can say this is a plugin with lots of potential. I am especially impressed with the very fast, efficient and predictable rendering engine.

mister3d
12-01-2009, 08:08 AM
I've edited my first post with a link to the manual.

But we can't see it as it's:
-"available only for registered users"
-"you can become a registered used once hairfarm is released"
-"and once you buy a license"

pluMmet
12-01-2009, 08:33 AM
Ya the link didn't work so I removed it... sorry!

I thought there was something in the demo file linking the manual???

mister3d
12-01-2009, 08:36 AM
Ya the link didn't work so I removed it... sorry!

I thought there was something in the demo file linking the manual???
Nein, the same you mentioned.

SuperRune
12-01-2009, 09:39 AM
that seems silly and backwards since you have to use the generate hair modifier to get the hair to begin with right?

It makes perfect sense once you've used the plugin a bit. Creating hair with Hair Farm is really a three part process - first you create the hair mesh (or guides), then you generate the renderable hair, and finally you style the hair.

To expand on that:

Every modifier related to creating the hair mesh or guide hair is prefixed with "HairMesh". The most common way is by adding a HairMesh Edit modifier on top of your character. This uses the very cool polygon-editing solution which is the biggest new feature of Hair Farm. If you do poly-modeling, creating hair should now be a natural extension of what you've been doing. For shorter hair you use the HairMesh Brush modifier, where you have standard brushing tools. Note that by adding a HairMesh Edit after the Brush modifier, you will convert it to hair polygons that you can edit further.

When you are satisfied with your hair mesh, you add the Hair Generate modifier, where you setup the amount of hair strand you want to render, their thickness, material and so on.

After that, you use the styling modifiers, which all are prefixed with "HairStyle". Remember to experiment with the stacking order of the style modifiers, there are many creative opportunities that can be explored by having modifiers in a different order (for example, frizz before or after wisps makes quite a difference).

It is easier to follow the workflow if you use the HairFarm menu instead of the Modifier List inside the stack - keep that in mind.

And yes, there ARE limitations to this demo, but that's very common in evaluation versions. So don't be a spoilt ba*tard and try to enjoy playing instead :)

(just so you know, I was also one of the beta testers)

INFINITE
12-01-2009, 12:32 PM
This is great news about the release of the Demo.

Once you use Hair-Farm you will never look back to anything else. It is a pleasure to create hair using it's new form of hair modeling. The renderer is lighting fast and you have a huge variety of combinations with regards to hair growth, length, style, color, shading and over all control. Which the built in system really lacks! Compositing is easy, it takes care of rendering the layers for you, ready to use in external applications. Plus it's support for generating Hair polygons or Hair guides (splines or chains) for other 3rd party renderers is a really powerful extension of it's toolset.

The variables are MASSIVE!

It is far, far superior to anything else available in the market today. Including the built in Hair system.

I was lucky enough to beta test this plug-in since last December, in it's early form. Personally I had been looking for a 'proper' solution for years. Hair Farm is that solution. It's robust, fast and just plain gorgeous.

It has massive potential for the future and I can see Autodesk getting their cheque book out in no time at all.

I wouldn't listen to any of the neigh sayers, test drive the plug-in for yourself and see what it can do.

3dtutorial
12-01-2009, 01:21 PM
This is great news about the release of the Demo.

Once you use Hair-Farm you will never look back to anything else. It is a pleasure to create hair using it's new form of hair modeling. The renderer is lighting fast and you have a huge variety of combinations with regards to hair growth, length, style, color, shading and over all control. Which the built in system really lacks! Compositing is easy, it takes care of rendering the layers for you, ready to use in external applications. Plus it's support for generating Hair polygons or Hair guides (splines or chains) for other 3rd party renderers is a really powerful extension of it's toolset.

The variables are MASSIVE!

It is far, far superior to anything else available in the market today. Including the built in Hair system.

I was lucky enough to beta test this plug-in since last December, in it's early form. Personally I had been looking for a 'proper' solution for years. Hair Farm is that solution. It's robust, fast and just plain gorgeous.

It has massive potential for the future and I can see Autodesk getting their cheque book out in no time at all.

I wouldn't listen to any of the neigh sayers, test drive the plug-in for yourself and see what it can do.



I Agree 100 %

Regards,

j

mister3d
12-01-2009, 01:29 PM
I Agree 100 %

Regards,

j
So am I, though I checked it just for half an hour, I absolutely love it.

AlexanderT
12-01-2009, 02:02 PM
Congrats to all of the people who are involved in the development :) This "baby" raised enough to blow peoples mind. If you ever had a chance to work with any hair modeling solutions available in the industry, you will definitely see the difference in work and potential of Hair Farm (http://www.hair-farm.com/)

Key words for this one is: revolutionary, fast and AWESOME :)

But after all that said, you just need to try and find it out for your self! As being a beta tester of it, I would recommend to start with basic Tutorials (http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/tutorials/) to get some clear understanding of how it works! Also check out some examples to see what can be done and how its done: Examples (http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/examples/)

Cheers!

Wongedan
12-01-2009, 02:25 PM
I know to use max ...

but.....
..
:( is there no plugin for softimage?, my very personal beloved 3d program ..... :(
but man, congrats, this is so bringing pixar to home ... ;p ( and of course they are always still making surprise)

3dtutorial
12-01-2009, 02:47 PM
I know to use max ...

but.....
..
:( is there no plugin for softimage?, my very personal beloved 3d program ..... :(
but man, congrats, this is so bringing pixar to home ... ;p ( and of course they are always still making surprise)

I hear you.

After more than a decade of use, this is one of the reason that I've left XSI/Softimage behind and returned to using 3ds Max once again. I know that saying this will piss some people off, but that's just how it is (for me at least).

Great tools like this and a robust 3d party development community do make a difference.

J

metamesh
12-01-2009, 03:26 PM
how does this work with mentalRay/Vray GI's and area lights systems?

looks very promissing...

ienrdna
12-01-2009, 06:14 PM
how does this work with mentalRay/Vray GI's and area lights systems?

looks very promissing...

In MR hair primitive only.

ngrava
12-01-2009, 07:24 PM
In MR hair primitive only.

So, no support for Vray? Are there any plans?

Sorry but this just starts me on a rant: I have to say this is the major thing that I think ALL hair systems get wrong. Not Vray specifically, but just a general lack of properly using GI or having any kind of solution for GI. Since I have not used the full version of Hair Farm, I'm excluding it from this commentary for now.

Where I've been working for the past few years, we light all our characters in their environments with GI. Once or twice a year we have to do fury characters and it's a b*tch let me tell you. You do all this work getting the scene looking great and then you have to light the character separately to make it look like it's in the same environment. It never looks quite right and always ends up being some kind of compromise. We've tried all sort of things like dome lights, light arrays, AO hair shaders, hair geometry w/ GI, MR prims, Vray prims, pulling animation from one program into another to try out that hair solution... It either looks fake or takes to long to render a frame. Yeah, it's been a real pain.

For me, the issue isn't the speed of rendering hair with deep shadows in a buffer. All hair systems can do that relatively well. It's rendering the hair in the scene with GI that is the hard thing. The closest we got to this was using Max hair with Vray using it's special new hair shader. Looks amazing but you have to use a maximum of 3 to 4 antialiasing subdivisions and your threshold set so low that even simple fuzzy ball tests take 15 mins. And for a full fury character, you need something like 300,000 to 500,000 fibers. Sometimes even as many has a million.

So, not trying to piss on anyones parade here, I'm sure this is a great plugin and that it's faster at buffer rendering and all but seriously, software developers need to move on now. Past buffer hair rendering and start looking at GI or multi-bounce-color bleeding-Ambient Occlusion or point cloud GI or... Something... I don't know, I'm not a programer but someone has got to come up with a better solution.

Sorry for highjacking this thread for my own evil endeavors.

Hooch
12-01-2009, 07:57 PM
So, no support for Vray? Are there any plans?

Sorry but this just starts me on a rant: I have to say this is the major thing that I think ALL hair systems get wrong. Not Vray specifically, but just a general lack of properly using GI or having any kind of solution for GI. Since I have not used the full version of Hair Farm, I'm excluding it from this commentary for now.

Where I've been working for the past few years, we light all our characters in their environments with GI. Once or twice a year we have to do fury characters and it's a b*tch let me tell you. You do all this work getting the scene looking great and then you have to light the character separately to make it look like it's in the same environment. It never looks quite right and always ends up being some kind of compromise. We've tried all sort of things like dome lights, light arrays, AO hair shaders, hair geometry w/ GI, MR prims, Vray prims, pulling animation from one program into another to try out that hair solution... It either looks fake or takes to long to render a frame. Yeah, it's been a real pain.

For me, the issue isn't the speed of rendering hair with deep shadows in a buffer. All hair systems can do that relatively well. It's rendering the hair in the scene with GI that is the hard thing. The closest we got to this was using Max hair with Vray using it's special new hair shader. Looks amazing but you have to use a maximum of 3 to 4 antialiasing subdivisions and your threshold set so low that even simple fuzzy ball tests take 15 mins. And for a full fury character, you need something like 300,000 to 500,000 fibers. Sometimes even as many has a million.

So, not trying to piss on anyones parade here, I'm sure this is a great plugin and that it's faster at buffer rendering and all but seriously, software developers need to move on now. Past buffer hair rendering and start looking at GI or multi-bounce-color bleeding-Ambient Occlusion or point cloud GI or... Something... I don't know, I'm not a programer but someone has got to come up with a better solution.

Sorry for highjacking this thread for my own evil endeavors.


I couldn't agree more!
amen ;)

Per-Anders
12-01-2009, 08:06 PM
So, no support for Vray? Are there any plans?

Sorry but this just starts me on a rant: I have to say this is the major thing that I think ALL hair systems get wrong. Not Vray specifically, but just a general lack of properly using GI or having any kind of solution for GI. Since I have not used the full version of Hair Farm, I'm excluding it from this commentary for now.

Where I've been working for the past few years, we light all our characters in their environments with GI. Once or twice a year we have to do fury characters and it's a b*tch let me tell you. You do all this work getting the scene looking great and then you have to light the character separately to make it look like it's in the same environment. It never looks quite right and always ends up being some kind of compromise. We've tried all sort of things like dome lights, light arrays, AO hair shaders, hair geometry w/ GI, MR prims, Vray prims, pulling animation from one program into another to try out that hair solution... It either looks fake or takes to long to render a frame. Yeah, it's been a real pain.

For me, the issue isn't the speed of rendering hair with deep shadows in a buffer. All hair systems can do that relatively well. It's rendering the hair in the scene with GI that is the hard thing. The closest we got to this was using Max hair with Vray using it's special new hair shader. Looks amazing but you have to use a maximum of 3 to 4 antialiasing subdivisions and your threshold set so low that even simple fuzzy ball tests take 15 mins. And for a full fury character, you need something like 300,000 to 500,000 fibers. Sometimes even as many has a million.

So, not trying to piss on anyones parade here, I'm sure this is a great plugin and that it's faster at buffer rendering and all but seriously, software developers need to move on now. Past buffer hair rendering and start looking at GI or multi-bounce-color bleeding-Ambient Occlusion or point cloud GI or... Something... I don't know, I'm not a programer but someone has got to come up with a better solution.

Sorry for highjacking this thread for my own evil endeavors.

I believe one of the papers behind Hair Farm is all about Hair and GI, also other engines than VRay support GI and are production ready, you should be prepared to use if that's what the job requires. I'm somewhat surprised as you used C4D that apparently you never once enabled GI with the HAIR module, that uses a very specific GI solution for hair. Does it have good AA? Yes. Is it much faster than systems that don't have Hair specific GI solutions? Yes. Is it still slow? Absolutely.

Optimizing Hair with GI is an area of current research, throwing your toys out of the cot though because the technology isn't there yet as if it were some conspiracy of programmers to defraud you of your time is just ridiculous though. Renders of anything still takes time to do, everyone would like them to be faster and better looking with amazing texture detail, AA and so on while still being accessible technology-wise to people using laptops and low end machines, and that's the problem - commercial software has to run for (nearly) everyone, be usable for (nearly) everyone, it is compromise, it can't depend on everyone having the same GPU or configuration, a network existing to distribute the processing and so on. Eventually the technology will get there, but it's no-ones fault that tomorrows technology doesn't exist today.

spurcell
12-01-2009, 08:07 PM
Actually Vray supports the Mrprim for a little bit now.

thev
12-01-2009, 09:07 PM
Actually Vray supports the Mrprim for a little bit now.A small correction here; V-Ray does not support the mr primitives; it simply uses the same user interface to achieve a similar function. Internally, it uses directly the Hair&Fur API to construct native V-Ray primitives. It does not handle mr data directly in any way.

Best regards,
Vlado

spurcell
12-01-2009, 09:09 PM
A small correction here; V-Ray does not support the mr primitives; it simply uses the same user interface to achieve a similar function. Internally, it uses directly the Hair&Fur API to construct native V-Ray primitives. It does not handle mr data directly in any way.

Best regards,
Vlado

Is it okay if I just say, 'That's what I meant?' :thumbsup:

pete
12-01-2009, 09:18 PM
this is one of the reason that I've left XSI/Softimage behind and returned to using 3ds Max once again.

hey Joseph, I know what you mean. I prefer XSI for a lot of reasons but hair is horrible on every front in XSI, and these days people ask for it more and more.
Maybe I'll try to figure out a way to point cache stuff into max for the fur/rendering side.

ngrava
12-01-2009, 10:01 PM
Is it okay if I just say, 'That's what I meant?' :thumbsup:
And that's what I meant in my post when I said "Vray hair prim". And this is exactly what I'm talking about: Vlado had to write his own implementation not to people who wrote the Max hair/fur plugin.

ngrava
12-01-2009, 10:05 PM
hey Joseph, I know what you mean. I prefer XSI for a lot of reasons but hair is horrible on every front in XSI, and these days people ask for it more and more.
Maybe I'll try to figure out a way to point cache stuff into max for the fur/rendering side.

I think it's funny that both the Max hair/fur and XSI hair are based on the same code base. It's just shave and a haircut. You'll even notice the same property names across platforms. I was surprised by this when I first used XSI hair after using Max Hair. ;)

pluMmet
12-01-2009, 11:50 PM
Hair Farm "works" in any 3ds Max renderer. However it's rendering speed enhancements are only for 3ds Max native renderers.

As I stated a Great thing about Hair Farm is that it can export hair simulations to 3rd party renderers. People using Cinima4D have had this for a while but 3ds Max users have been left out in the cold as far as this goes. Hair Farm has caught us up and then shot us past every one else. It's very cool.

LucentDreams
12-02-2009, 01:25 AM
Hair Farm "works" in any 3ds Max renderer. However it's rendering speed enhancements are only for 3ds Max native renderers.

As I stated a Great thing about Hair Farm is that it can export hair simulations to 3rd party renderers. People using Cinima4D have had this for a while but 3ds Max users have been left out in the cold as far as this goes. Hair Farm has caught us up and then shot us past every one else. It's very cool.

Outside of the polygonal modeling process where has this shot past? I wish there was a a better demonstration of the polygon modeling idea to to see how flexible it is, the simple tutorial doesn't really do it justice.

lo
12-02-2009, 05:37 AM
Outside of the polygonal modeling process where has this shot past?

Polygonal modeling aside, for me the top advantages of hairfarm over similar products are:

1) Better shaders.
2) VERY quick rendering even at a million hairs.
3) A new breed of optimized shadow maps that get rid of the usual artifacts.
4) Fast and stable simulation tool.

I've used 3 different hair/fur solutions in 3dsmax prior to this one, and at least in terms or rendering quality and speed this one is vastly superior.

uchiharuin
12-02-2009, 06:50 AM
is the hair animatable? i haven`t tried it yet :(

mister3d
12-02-2009, 06:56 AM
is the hair animatable? i haven`t tried it yet :(

Yes, check this http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/animation.php

uchiharuin
12-02-2009, 07:03 AM
Yes, check this http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/animation.php

wow i`m sold! :drool:

LucentDreams
12-02-2009, 07:18 AM
Polygonal modeling aside, for me the top advantages of hairfarm over similar products are:

1) Better shaders.
2) VERY quick rendering even at a million hairs.
3) A new breed of optimized shadow maps that get rid of the usual artifacts.
4) Fast and stable simulation tool.

I've used 3 different hair/fur solutions in 3dsmax prior to this one, and at least in terms or rendering quality and speed this one is vastly superior.


So are all these claims/comparisons specific to max?

For the millions, I'm curious about speed I see one picture that says 1 million in 8 secs using 5 segments (assuming the shading it per vertex there) Any other examples of how fast it handles millions, and are those all using the exact same technique or are there special modes for cloning etc? so that maybe only a fraction are hairs interpolated form guides and then those interpolated hairs are cloned in small clusters?

INFINITE
12-02-2009, 07:27 AM
Outside of the polygonal modeling process where has this shot past? I wish there was a a better demonstration of the polygon modeling idea to to see how flexible it is, the simple tutorial doesn't really do it justice.

All of the beta testers have been under an NDA, so there aren't many examples of the hair modeling process as this was a top secret part of the plug-in until the demo release a few days ago.

Over the coming weeks you will see more examples of how versatile and complex the hair modeling process is, through screen shots and more mini tutorials.

Combined with brushing and a huge combination of styling modifiers, there are so many variables that you really can get the look you want without having to fight the application. Let alone the unique look the shaders and renderer produce.

anishmations
12-02-2009, 07:58 AM
Another great thing I found useful about this is that you will never have to worry about increasing hair strand subdivs for avoiding steps in rendered hair. it always renders super smooth hair. It just never renders steppy. :bounce:
You can add more steps for some other modeling parameters though..

lo
12-02-2009, 08:05 AM
So are all these claims/comparisons specific to max?

For the millions, I'm curious about speed I see one picture that says 1 million in 8 secs using 5 segments (assuming the shading it per vertex there) Any other examples of how fast it handles millions, and are those all using the exact same technique or are there special modes for cloning etc? so that maybe only a fraction are hairs interpolated form guides and then those interpolated hairs are cloned in small clusters?

Yes, they are all specific to max as that is the only package I use, I can't personally testify about other packages.

There is an option to sort of do what you said. I don't think it is for the purposes of reducing render overhead, it is for artistic purposes (it's called Hairstyle Wisps).

As Anish mentioned, the only reason you have to worry about segments, is to help define the shape of the hair, it will render smooth no matter what as it doesn't render polygons but curves (much like NURBS curves - you only need as much CVs as needed to define the shape properly.)

LucentDreams
12-02-2009, 08:24 AM
so segments apply only to the styling and dynamics?

What about shading, even if the curve itself is always rendered smoothly, is the shading on it just per vertex, per pixel or are there several options. Sorry I don't have max to test and I've done the 30 day demo for the current 2010 already so I can't test the hair myself.

I'm interested int he specs for the million hair Render, I mean C4D's is way ahead of the Shave render but still notably slower than 8 seconds (granted I'm on a q6600 not an I7 so my processing is notably slower too) With a few tricks best I got was 37 seconds for 1 million.

lo
12-02-2009, 08:53 AM
so segments apply only to the styling and dynamics?

What about shading, even if the curve itself is always rendered smoothly, is the shading on it just per vertex, per pixel or are there several options. Sorry I don't have max to test and I've done the 30 day demo for the current 2010 already so I can't test the hair myself.

I'm interested int he specs for the million hair Render, I mean C4D's is way ahead of the Shave render but still notably slower than 8 seconds (granted I'm on a q6600 not an I7 so my processing is notably slower too) With a few tricks best I got was 37 seconds for 1 million.

Yes segments apply only to styling and dynamics -anything needed to define their shape - as far as I can tell.

Shading can either be per pixel or 1/2/4/8 samples per segment, and you can also choose whether this speedup applies to materials and lighting or just to lighting.

Of course render times depend on the complexity, number and quality of lights and shadows, etc. just like any other renderer, so giving an answer on how long it takes to render a million hairs is kind of hard.

I just tried putting 1 million default hairs on a sphere and with no shadows it took 18s and with one shadow map it took 32s.
After some optimization it took 11s and 14s, respectively.

CryingHorn
12-02-2009, 09:26 AM
Finally, Can't wait to check this thing out :scream:

vfx
12-02-2009, 09:36 AM
I've read through this thread as best I can, and I couldn't see any mention of it so.. as this is a plugin, do the developers plan on supporting more than one app? i.e. Shave is available on multiple 3D apps including maya.

Also, I'm not yet sold on the shading.. I still think shave does a better job albeit with longer renders according to the stats here.

pluMmet
12-02-2009, 09:52 AM
Over the coming weeks you will see more examples of how versatile and complex the hair modeling process is, through screen shots and more mini tutorials.

I guess just sit tight until these mini tutorials come out. I've been fortunate to see them and I too did not understand the currently available tutorials until I saw them. I've had a chance to play with HF since seeing the videos and it all comes together. Now I know how powerful it is so I'm very biased. You will be too :)

The creator of Hair Farm is going to Siggraph Asia to submit his work to the conference so I suppose that that is why he's holding back the mini tutorials until after he is done with that.

fearnight2000
12-02-2009, 11:52 AM
I had some time to experiment a little with it.

Generally its good, and i like the way the hair is generated.
For now the lack of a manual is a big drawback.
What i noticed though is that the simulation (especially with collisions ON) is VERY slow.
The fastest one I've used is Hair & Fur, while the best (in means of dynamics) is HairFX.

By the way, the number of vertices on the guide hairs depends on the number of levels in the
Hair MESH??

INFINITE
12-02-2009, 12:14 PM
I guess just sit tight until these mini tutorials come out. I've been fortunate to see them and I too did not understand the currently available tutorials until I saw them. I've had a chance to play with HF since seeing the videos and it all comes together. Now I know how powerful it is so I'm very biased. You will be too :)

The creator of Hair Farm is going to Siggraph Asia to submit his work to the conference so I suppose that that is why he's holding back the mini tutorials until after he is done with that.

Yeah, I'm working on them as we speak :cool:

I've read through this thread as best I can, and I couldn't see any mention of it so.. as this is a plugin, do the developers plan on supporting more than one app? i.e. Shave is available on multiple 3D apps including maya.

Also, I'm not yet sold on the shading.. I still think shave does a better job albeit with longer renders according to the stats here.

Not sure about other apps (I am sure this will come) but as I said before, it's dead easy to export splines to be used in another renderer, I have got Hair Guides exported and rendered in Lightwave no problem. I would imagine it's the same process for C4D or Maya.

The shading is far superior to any thing Shave can do, as it has many more options for the way you can shade, grow and style the hair. From Mutant colors - within Mutant colors, color variation, gradient maps, by UV's, plus all these can be controlled by a myriad of ways, grey scale maps, vertex color/alpha, UVW's the list is endless there are many more controls and these can all be plugged into any shader slot, color, ambient, speculrity 1+2, transmission, opacity etc Let alone the styling! :drool: The thickness controls are brilliant.

I have had Hair-Farm rendering out over 2 million hairs in under 2 minutes using 4-5 light sources (using Shadowmaps of course) It's gorgeous and very fast.

vfx
12-02-2009, 12:38 PM
By the way, the number of vertices on the guide hairs depends on the number of levels in the
Hair MESH??

Hope not as this is something that fustrates me with Shave.

Infinite - exporting splines isn't really a solution - you wont get all the shading tools.
A lot of the features in the shader you mention are in Shave already, but that said, opacity and thickness controls sound cool.

mister3d
12-02-2009, 12:40 PM
.

I have had Hair-Farm rendering out over 2 million hairs in under 2 minutes using 4-5 light sources (using Shadowmaps of course) It's gorgeous and very fast.
What are your machine specs?

INFINITE
12-02-2009, 12:59 PM
Infinite - exporting splines isn't really a solution - you wont get all the shading tools.
A lot of the features in the shader you mention are in Shave already, but that said, opacity and thickness controls sound cool.

No of course it's not a solution but it is something for the time being :) Some of those features are in Shave yes but some of the most important ones are not, like proper thickness control and opacity, which is what sets the look of Hair-Farm apart from the rest :cool:

What are your machine specs?

I'm running quite a fast machine, a Dell Precision T7400, Quad Core 3.16 GHz, 8 Gig machine on Vista 64bit. Still renders much faster than Hair & Fur, Lightwave renders the hair guides in FiberFX in about 30 seconds! :surprised

Ballo
12-02-2009, 01:00 PM
I will check this weekend. Thanks you!.

I'm migrating to Maya, Any possibility to make a Maya version?

Thanks a lot!

mister3d
12-02-2009, 01:14 PM
like proper thickness control
Just wondering... is there a possibility to render hairs thinner than 0,1 mm, because when I set it lower, it just becomes more transparent, but still not thin enough for close-ups? I mean, if it would be view-dependent, and didn't render say anything thinner than a fraction of a pixel, it would make sense. Any solution for this in Hairfarm? Thanks.

lo
12-02-2009, 01:16 PM
Just wondering... is there a possibility to render hairs thinner than 0,1 mm, because when I set it lower, it just becomes more transparent, but still not thin enough for close-ups? I mean, if it would be view-dependent, and didn't render say anything thinner than a fraction of a pixel, it would make sense. Any solution for this in Hairfarm? Thanks.

This works fine in Hairfarm, you can set thickness to any size and if you zoom in enough it is still solid and opaque.

fearnight2000
12-02-2009, 01:39 PM
After a few more experiments, mostly with dynamics, it has crashed many times. While Hair & Fur didn't.
I hope these stability issues will be resolved.
ON the Hair modeling side, a way to select edge loops (upper, lower, such as in poly editing), would be nice.

mister3d
12-02-2009, 02:09 PM
This works fine in Hairfarm, you can set thickness to any size and if you zoom in enough it is still solid and opaque.
Hmm, not making it thinner than 0,1 mm here...

lo
12-02-2009, 02:32 PM
Hmm, not making it thinner than 0,1 mm here...

Hmm seems you're right, looks like I wasn't going thin enough earlier, sorry.
Thanks, I will report this issue.

INFINITE
12-02-2009, 02:41 PM
Hmm, not making it thinner than 0,1 mm here...

You have tried changing the default x 1 setting .1, .01, or .001 and then set your mm size again, right?

http://www.ir-ltd.net/uploads/mm.jpg

LucentDreams
12-02-2009, 03:04 PM
Shading can either be per pixel or 1/2/4/8 samples per segment, and you can also choose whether this speedup applies to materials and lighting or just to lighting.


Sounds quite flexible, thanks for the thorough responses, is there any simple root to tip option, this is especially handy for shorter hairs like fur where you reduce the shading samples down to just 2.

lo
12-02-2009, 03:15 PM
Sounds quite flexible, thanks for the thorough responses, is there any simple root to tip option, this is especially handy for shorter hairs like fur where you reduce the shading samples down to just 2.

Not that I know of, though from my experience this was never an issue, since the time it took me to do the actual rendering was very short in any case, most of the 'render' time usually involves the precalculation of shadow maps and not shading/sampling.

INFINITE
12-02-2009, 04:18 PM
Sounds quite flexible, thanks for the thorough responses, is there any simple root to tip option, this is especially handy for shorter hairs like fur where you reduce the shading samples down to just 2.

not sure exactly what you mean here? but you can easily control the thickness of the hair strands by using the 'thickness curve' seen in the image I posted a few back. You can plot on a curve the thickness of the strand, a long it's length, using linear or smooth interpolation.

DutchDimension
12-03-2009, 07:09 AM
Has anyone tested the Hair Farm renderer with Motion Blur? What's the speed quality ratio like?

mister3d
12-03-2009, 09:15 AM
You have tried changing the default x 1 setting .1, .01, or .001 and then set your mm size again, right?

http://www.ir-ltd.net/uploads/mm.jpg

Oh thanks Infinite, I will check this out!

Some more information is now available!

http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/about.php

http://www.cemyuksel.com/research/hairmeshes/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0DBirlPfjQ

http://www.cemyuksel.com/research/dualscattering/

fearnight2000
12-03-2009, 01:05 PM
I don't know about you but this thing must be one the SLOWEST hair solutions
I've ever used...

I created a simple object, added Hair with 1000 hairs and a Hair realistic material, with 1 spot light with Hair raytraced shadows and after 3 minutes it was still at the begging of the hair (top part of the head) so i stopped. The funny thing is that MR with the Hair being MR primitive with 10000 was much faster.

Gunnah
12-03-2009, 02:05 PM
tracing is a bit slower shadow-wise, but you dont need traced shadows for it. I'm rendering 2 million hairs with 6 lights in 3 minutes atm


cheers

g

I don't know about you but this thing must be one the SLOWEST hair solutions
I've ever used...

I created a simple object, added Hair with 1000 hairs and a Hair realistic material, with 1 spot light with Hair raytraced shadows and after 3 minutes it was still at the begging of the hair (top part of the head) so i stopped. The funny thing is that MR with the Hair being MR primitive with 10000 was much faster.

visionmaster2
12-03-2009, 02:31 PM
fearnight2000, it's funny to hear that Hairfarm is slow.....

i have the chance to beta-test it, and it's the speedest hair plugin i ever used.
For the 1rst time, working with hair is a pleasure for me.
The modelisation process is amazing, precise and simple.
The hair simulation can be done with a lot of tools, cloth by exemple.
The rendering options are great and multiple, with a lot of rendering pass ( now, we have hair with dof pass in 3dsmax !! yeahh).

Cem, the creator of Hair farm, worked very hard to improve and adapt the plugin and listening to our multiples requests.

.

mister3d
12-03-2009, 02:58 PM
fearnight2000, it's funny to hear that Hairfarm is slow.....

i have the chance to beta-test it, and it's the speedest hair plugin i ever used.
For the 1rst time, working with hair is a pleasure for me.
The modelisation process is amazing, precise and simple.
The hair simulation can be done with a lot of tools, cloth by exemple.
The rendering options are great and multiple, with a lot of rendering pass ( now, we have hair with dof pass in 3dsmax !! yeahh).

Cem, the creator of Hair farm, worked very hard to improve and adapt the plugin and listening to our multiples requests.

.

I totally agree, because creating hair is the hardest part in character modeling for me. It takes so much time with other plugins that it makes sense purchasing hairfarm, as the time to setup, creating groups and optimising can be used to earn money. Two weeks for fur setup for a creature... nightmare.
The plugin looks like a dream came true.

fearnight2000
12-03-2009, 03:12 PM
fearnight2000, it's funny to hear that Hairfarm is slow.....

i have the chance to beta-test it, and it's the speedest hair plugin i ever used.
For the 1rst time, working with hair is a pleasure for me.
The modelisation process is amazing, precise and simple.
The hair simulation can be done with a lot of tools, cloth by exemple.
The rendering options are great and multiple, with a lot of rendering pass ( now, we have hair with dof pass in 3dsmax !! yeahh).

Cem, the creator of Hair farm, worked very hard to improve and adapt the plugin and listening to our multiples requests.

.

I agree that the creation process is really nice.
But, try to render 10000 hairs, with realistic Hair material and lights that cast RAYTRACED shadows.
One may think that the job can be done with shadow maps, but raytraced shadows are required when dealing with transparent objects.
Furthermore, what would be nice, is the ability to render the hair as a buffer effect with MR (not as a MR primitive).
Since most artists that would require such a good hair solution, use an advanced renderer such as MR, Final Gather, etc.
And finally, it would be nice if the hair (as a buffer effect) could recieve GI, or at least some kind of Skylight.
I will be waiting for the full release, with a proper manual to test it thoroughly.

PS: another cool feature (something that hairFX can do) would be to be able to allow the hair be completely detached from the root object (so that you may simulate falling Hair), via maps and curves.

These are my thoughts for now.

INFINITE
12-03-2009, 03:34 PM
I don't know about you but this thing must be one the SLOWEST hair solutions
I've ever used...


Perhaps your not using it correctly ;)

I agree that the creation process is really nice.
But, try to render 10000 hairs, with realistic Hair material and lights that cast RAYTRACED shadows.
One may think that the job can be done with shadow maps, but raytraced shadows are required when dealing with transparent objects.
Furthermore, what would be nice, is the ability to render the hair as a buffer effect with MR (not as a MR primitive).
Since most artists that would require such a good hair solution, use an advanced renderer such as MR, Final Gather, etc.
And finally, it would be nice if the hair (as a buffer effect) could recieve GI, or at least some kind of Skylight.
I will be waiting for the full release, with a proper manual to test it thoroughly.

PS: another cool feature (something that hairFX can do) would be to be able to allow the hair be completely detached from the root object (so that you may simulate falling Hair), via maps and curves.

These are my thoughts for now.

You have to learn how to use the Plug-in first. There are hacks and tricks to get the best out of it. You have to learn to walk first before you can run.

There is no quick render solution out there for hair that can calculate everything in one render for things like GI, reflections, sss etc etc

Computing power just isnt ready for this yet, maybe when CUDA and more power is available will every day artists be able to take advantage of this.

There are ways around what you need to do. The first step is to setup everything to render under lights with Shadowmaps and go from there, cranking up the settings as and when you need to.

Hair-Farm is by far the quickest Hair renderer out there. Perhaps play with it some more :thumbsup:

mister3d
12-03-2009, 03:38 PM
I agree that the creation process is really nice.
But, try to render 10000 hairs, with realistic Hair material and lights that cast RAYTRACED
I tested it on quad core 8 gigs ram, 1 minute 30 secs. Which is of course not very fast, but you are dealing with real raytraced shadows for hair... this is a very resource-demanding operation. I think using shadows for transparent objects can be cleverly set up. I wouldn't go with a brute-force approach just because there are some objcts with transparent shadows. And of course rendering hair and the rest in all one renderer is what we all want, but anyway you will break it in passes.

INFINITE
12-03-2009, 03:38 PM
I tested it on quad core 8 gigs ram, 1 minute 30 secs. Which is of course not very fast, but you are dealing with real raytraced shadows for hair... this is a very resource-demanding operation.

I agree, surely doing the same in Hair & Fur (or HairFX) would be just as slow :scream:


Has anyone tested the Hair Farm renderer with Motion Blur? What's the speed quality ratio like?

I havent had any experience with this but I know others have, the Hair-Farm public forums might be the best place to ask :)

visionmaster2
12-03-2009, 04:14 PM
fearnight2000 "but raytraced shadows are required when dealing with transparent objects."

i dont know if it is what you speaking about, but you can use hair-shadow map with reflection and transparancy.
i made a simple exemple for you.
50 000 hairs, 2 lights and a skylight.
blury reflection on the right and blury transparancy on the foreground + a Zdepth pass = 30 secondes on my laptop.
http://www.wip3d.com/hair1.jpg

metamesh
12-03-2009, 04:17 PM
i dont know if it is what you speaking about, but you can use hair-shadow map with reflection and transparancy.
i made a simple exemple for you.
50 000 hairs, 2 lights and a skylight.
blury reflection on the right and blury transparancy on the foreground + a Zdepth pass = 30 secondes on my laptop.
http://www.wip3d.com/hair1.jpg


sadly, the hair doesn't seem to be affected by the skylight?

mister3d
12-03-2009, 04:28 PM
i dont know if it is what you speaking about, but you can use hair-shadow map with reflection and transparancy.
i made a simple exemple for you.
50 000 hairs, 2 lights and a skylight.
blury reflection on the right and blury transparancy on the foreground + a Zdepth pass = 30 secondes on my laptop.

He most probably meant the same shadow for hair and transparent objects, not shadow visible in transparency. Some shadows don't support transparency, basically shadowmaps. But mental ray supports fake transparency with shadow maps. Maybe renderman too.

fearnight2000
12-03-2009, 05:05 PM
i dont know if it is what you speaking about, but you can use hair-shadow map with reflection and transparancy.
i made a simple exemple for you.
50 000 hairs, 2 lights and a skylight.
blury reflection on the right and blury transparancy on the foreground + a Zdepth pass = 30 secondes on my laptop.
http://www.wip3d.com/hair1.jpg

For the quality of that image that's pretty fast.
What renderer did you use?

PS: does the Hair receive light from the skylight?

visionmaster2
12-03-2009, 05:14 PM
i used 3dsmax scanline on an old core2duo laptop.
no, the skylight doesn't affect the hair in this image. i saw some renders with skylight in the hairfarm forum, but i dont know if the hair was converted to object. i will take a look.

fearnight2000
12-03-2009, 05:30 PM
Well, i just tested it with sky light, and then with photometric lights, and it works like a charm. Not as fast as your render, but I'm starting to like it.
If they would integrate it fully in MR it would be supreme.

metamesh
12-03-2009, 05:32 PM
Well, i just tested it with sky light, and then with photometric lights, and it works like a charm. Not as fast as your render, but I'm starting to like it.
If they would integrate it fully in MR it would be supreme.

would you mind posting the renders both with sky light and photmetric lights ? :)

fearnight2000
12-03-2009, 05:50 PM
The 1st is let by a photometric light (you have to crank it a lot without any exposure control), the 2nd is let by a skylight

MikeNash
12-03-2009, 09:44 PM
My tests
Hair and Fur 14 sec under photometric and FG - Alot cleaner looking hairs and better shadows.
Hair Farm 19 secs under photometric and FG - Very ruff looking hairs

If i cant use this under photometric lights and FG going have hard time to match my current skin shader lighting. Things like this stop me from considering using it in my work-flow.

If your smart with your review render setups your only wasting maybe max 10-30 sec of your life when using Hair-Fur per render.

It would be more valuable in animation rather then for still artists.

If they put proper FG support and Photometric, its a winner over max's default Hair and Fur :)

visionmaster2
12-03-2009, 11:02 PM
Kravit:

i dont know what is your workflow, but if you dont render your hair by pass or if you dont use the hairfarm object shadow menu (look in the light/modify/hair shadowmap/objects shadows) you will have bad result.
you could take a look in the render elements panel to see the new options for the hairs pass, too.
Hair farm is easy to use, but perhaps you need to take the time to learn a little more about it.

pluMmet
12-03-2009, 11:04 PM
UUHhhhhhh Hello.... You have to use Hair Shadows to get the best speed.

fearnight2000
12-04-2009, 10:47 AM
My tests
Hair and Fur 14 sec under photometric and FG - Alot cleaner looking hairs and better shadows.
Hair Farm 19 secs under photometric and FG - Very ruff looking hairs

If i cant use this under photometric lights and FG going have hard time to match my current skin shader lighting. Things like this stop me from considering using it in my work-flow.

If your smart with your review render setups your only wasting maybe max 10-30 sec of your life when using Hair-Fur per render.

It would be more valuable in animation rather then for still artists.

If they put proper FG support and Photometric, its a winner over max's default Hair and Fur :)

TRUE.

For my tests Hair & Fur is faster (in fact it's the fastest hair solution I've used) than Hair Farm.
Still, hair Farm has better materials, better hair modeling, and i think better dynamics.
IF MR (and other renderers such as Final Render or Vray) would be added it would boost it much.

mister3d
12-04-2009, 10:54 AM
TRUE.

For my tests Hair & Fur is faster (in fact it's the fastest hair solution I've used) than Hair Farm.
Still, hair Farm has better materials, better hair modeling, and i think better dynamics.
IF MR (and other renderers such as Final Render or Vray) would be added it would boost it much.

Could you show your tests please? I want to see at least 1 million of hairs with time and memory consumption stated.

INFINITE
12-04-2009, 11:03 AM
My tests
Hair and Fur 14 sec under photometric and FG - Alot cleaner looking hairs and better shadows.
Hair Farm 19 secs under photometric and FG - Very ruff looking hairs

If i cant use this under photometric lights and FG going have hard time to match my current skin shader lighting. Things like this stop me from considering using it in my work-flow.

If your smart with your review render setups your only wasting maybe max 10-30 sec of your life when using Hair-Fur per render.

It would be more valuable in animation rather then for still artists.

If they put proper FG support and Photometric, its a winner over max's default Hair and Fur :)

You need to spend a bit of time learning how to control the hair, shade it and style it first to get the best out of Hair Farm.

You really see the benefits of the plug-in when you start to create really complex setups like your previous hair styles you have made in the past. I think with your knowledge and understanding of Hair & Fur you could do some pretty cool stuff with Hair Farm Kravit :cool:

INFINITE
12-04-2009, 11:07 AM
TRUE.

For my tests Hair & Fur is faster (in fact it's the fastest hair solution I've used) than Hair Farm.
Still, hair Farm has better materials, better hair modeling, and i think better dynamics.
IF MR (and other renderers such as Final Render or Vray) would be added it would boost it much.

I read some where that in this image http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g46/199846/199846_1156997804_large.jpg by Max Edwin had to wait hours and hours to render out the hair using full GI and complex raytracing lights.

As well as another artist who I know was pushing Hair & Fur to the max. A great character by Stanislav Klabik - Julia Roberts

(http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g46/177146/177146_1229825550_large.jpg) http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g46/177146/177146_1229825550_large.jpg

As I remember, he left his computer running for days (if not weeks) to render out a complex hair setup like this in Hair & Fur.

Trying to get a hair solution to play nice with MR and complex GI setups is pie in the sky at the moment. You can do just as much with clever hacks and compositing.

Here's a neat trick.

One scene for rendering the Hair and Fuzz (to composite)

Another scene that is setup in MR with expensive lights etc. Use the hair you created in the Composite scene as an invisible bounce and shadow volume. Basicaly convert the hair strands from the previous file to Geometry. Then composite the two together, not great for animation purposes but good for 1 of images.

MikeNash
12-04-2009, 01:41 PM
Cheers for tips Infinite, I really didn't play with settings much with hair-farm. I'll have to ask Cem if could be put back on beta.

I find alot of people simply don't use enough layers and colors. People still think its how good hair plugin is that will get you good results, I use to use one of sh88test plugin to do my hair, Shag-Hair. I was able to get great results that hold up 4-5 years on.

INFINITE
12-04-2009, 02:41 PM
Cheers for tips Infinite, I really didn't play with settings much with hair-farm. I'll have to ask Cem if could be put back on beta.

I find alot of people simply don't use enough layers and colors. People still think its how good hair plugin is that will get you good results, I use to use one of sh88test plugin to do my hair, Shag-Hair. I was able to get great results that hold up 4-5 years on.

Well here's the thing, with Hair-Farm you can have layer upon layer upon layer. You can have multiple scalps, multiple objects which can each have dozens of Modifiers applied to them (to style), with yet another layer above that. Dead easy to add fuzz and random strands. You just have to get your head around working with hair in polygon volumes.
Once you do, damn it's powerful!

Complex setup examples by Luc Begin:

http://www.ir-ltd.net/uploads/eghf-02.jpg

http://www.ir-ltd.net/uploads/eghf-03.jpg

And polygon volume extrusion example:

http://www.ir-ltd.net/uploads/eghf-01.jpg



Also when modelling Hair-Farm, it has the abililty to color code extruded polygon volumes so you can easily edit, hide/unhide groups of extruded volumes, to further tweak there flow and style. Combined with the 'Push Out' modifier you can get some great effects of the hair hugging your object and not intersecting.

Trust me when you get into this thing it wil blow your mind! I absolutely dread to think what you can do with it Kravit! :drool:

metamesh
12-04-2009, 02:59 PM
Trust me when you get into this thing it wil blow your mind! I absolutely dread to think what you can do with it Kravit! :drool:

even tho it sounds awesome, is not modelling the hair that tends to give me headaches, but lighting and rendering it without having to make comp tricks... :)

Buexe
12-04-2009, 03:00 PM
Many Hair and Fur people use renderman for rendering, is there a way to render hair farm this way too or would one render layers and then composite them?

INFINITE
12-04-2009, 03:20 PM
even tho it sounds awesome, is not modelling the hair that tends to give me headaches, but lighting and rendering it without having to make comp tricks... :)

From what I've seen you guys use your own system at MPC anyway dont you? Lucky chaps.

Well for now I guess comp tricks are the only way, until technology has speeded up a bit. It is allot easier and much more intuitive compositing with Hair Farm layers, it automaticaly renders out the layers for you. Hair Pass, Shadow Pass, Alpha Pass, Depth Pass etc making the whole job much easier.

Many Hair and Fur people use renderman for rendering, is there a way to render hair farm this way too or would one render layers and then composite them?

I'm not sure about this, best to have a read through the actual site and see what you can find.

pluMmet
12-04-2009, 07:54 PM
Hello out there :beer:

MikeNash
12-05-2009, 01:26 AM
That looks insane infinite :)
Whats spline by spline modeling like in hair-farm ?. I usually create alot of splines so I can control majority of hair. If i have strands passing through my model its shits me to death haha.

Really dig your models and your site. Are you using sss fast skin shader for all your works ?

I have new model im working on that uses sss fast skin shader.
Im using 10 texture to control skin effect so works under majority lighting conditions. Doesnt blow out easy,scatters sss effects nicely.

bigguns
12-06-2009, 03:01 AM
hi all!

I've been one of those lucky beta testers of hairfarm.

Haifarm is really fast compared to other hair solution, and especially compared to hair and fur in max, it's very slow!

But for making the render fast with hairfarm, you must be aware of some fact.

So I will say the basic thing to know to make your render faster.

First thing to know, it that hairfamr do not work the same way that hair and fur.
It do not render splines but curves( so the hairs always render smooth,no step at all), so you don't have to add STEPS like you need to add with hair and fur. You will need to add steps only for modificator, like kink, if you want the hair more control point on it to get what you want, so just play you will understand what I mean and remeber, the more you had steps, for sure, you add render time to! (It's probably why some peoples said it was slowers then hair and fur.. if they add 12 steps like they add in hair and fur, in hair farm those steps do nothing for the smoothness of the line, so use it only when needed)

And the next important thing is the lights and render set up.
Hairfarm has been designed in the first to work with the scanline, when working with mentalray, you are stick to use the mr setting, wich lost a lots of speed even when activating fast rasterizer.

So, for the lights, if you want speed you MUST use hair shadow map, you can put the shadow map size at 2048 for clean result of the shadow. For the photometric light, it only support the point light, so don't use other then those when rendering with hairfarm.
And if you want to add extra quality over the shade of the hair at render time, you can go into- environnement-hairfarm- and check -Lights and shadows Only. That way, hairfarm will just optimize those 2, he will not optimise the materials, so it will take a bit longer to render but the quality will be better. you can do it only for you final renders if you want.

Now, here is some tips to do great renders with hairfarm. In the material of the hair realistic, you can check Clamp output if you hairs are too blasted. You can also check Low transmittance for that purpose, I usually check both most of the time.


So now, for the modeling part, it has many workflow, when I will have time I will do some tutorials.

If you want to model the hair, you can add a hair mesh edit over your scalp and extrude the poly's the way you want it. The best workflow for me, is to extrude many polygones and then refine then after all the head has been extruded, so you can do the separate option while in edge mode to separate the strands and to models each one of the has you want it and also add steps to the curves with the refine option while you are on in the layer mode. You can also add a hair mesh smooth and then an other hairmesh edit(for adding more polys so you can do more strands). Once you have finished your haircut, you can add some effect modifier like kink(to add randomness ) and you can control the curve of the hairs, it's really cool. Also, you can add an other hair generate ( cause the first one you had just over the hairmesh edit) with less hair, just to create some fluffy hair and add a kink over it, the kink will just affect those new hairs, so it's wonderfull :)

What I like to do too, is putting a determined number of hair, let's suppose 300 hairs, and over it you had a wisp modifier, il will generate hairs only around those hairs, really usefull for doing strends of hairs look,etc. you can play with the curves again to give the desired effect and also put maps etc. it's very flexible!

So, what I like the most of Hairfarm, is that it's easy to get what you want because it give you a PRDICTABLE result! You will never have this in hair and fur with his bad interpolation and limited toolset. Hairfarm have a lots of modifier to play with and to give you the result you want.

And the next thing I like the most, is that it is the fastest out there! and best quality! Hair and fur with MR have bad antialiasing and take life to render... So the best with hairfarm is to use the scanline and comp then. You have great pass for it in the render element.
Just match the lighthing and enjoy ;)

I also love the material flexibility and the power it gave to you! nothing to compare with anything else!

Here are some exemples I did for fun :

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2182/montagetesthairmeshedit.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3121/hairfarmtestmaterials.jpg

and here is a test of fur I QUICKLY did on this dog, just to test it. it can be much much better with tweaking everything, but you get the idea.

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/8556/hairfarmdogtest2.jpg

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/3699/hairfarmdogtest.jpg

http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3121/hairfarmtestmaterials.jpg




Just rendering those kind of hairs with hair and fur and at that big resolution, it must take hours! I did it with the full quality under 10 min and I have an old pc.


And the dynamics of the hairs is fantastic with lots of control.

So, it's why I'm in love with it :) and doing hairs with hairfarm is funny as modeling is :)

I hope these little tricks help you to get fast and nice renders :)

bigguns
12-06-2009, 03:02 AM
and here an other render I'm working on, when finished I will comp it with the MR render.

http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2690/depardieuhairtesthairme.jpg

pluMmet
12-07-2009, 09:15 AM
People have been asking what the differences are between Hair Farm and Max's native hair solution.

Here is a comparison (http://www.cyberradiance.com/hairfarm/hair_and_fur.php) between Hair Farm and Hair&Fur.

BobbyB
12-07-2009, 10:54 AM
HaHa that comparison seems a tad bias.

Hair and fur- hair generated form spline- Yes, interpolating two splines at a time(can produce unexpected results)
I'm not sure what that is about, Hair and fur comb from splines works great.

The Hair animation section. from the information id say that Hair and fur could be better, Yes the inbuild dynamics are very ordinary but the ability to control by splines allows you to control the hair and fur with the cloth modifier.With Hairfarm I'm not sure how usefull being able to morph or control the build mesh would be, what sort of results would you get if using cloth simulation on the build mesh.

The render comparison of too slow, lightning fast is just a bit silly, I did some test, same lighting but with relevant shadows, same hair count, Hairfarm was a little over twice as fast to get comparitive results with no colour map, and about 3 times as fast when using a colour map because maps do bog hair and fur down. So lightning fast compared to too slow is not very helpfull information. Perhaps up to 300% faster would be a tad more relivant

Multi-Core computing for modern CPUs- Hair and fur- No
I have an i7 cpu and it uses all the cores just fine, can't get more modern than an i7 cpu so i can't justify why that section just says outright No.


Hairfarm has a lot going for it, so a less bias comparason would be more useful for people that know Hair and fur and want to know what Hairfarm really has to offer. Material control, thinkness variation and styling option are all something that would appeal to a user that is using Hair and fur. Also the modeling hair tool look interesting, if the result can be exported to splines then some might consider the product just to style and the use those splines with their desired render solution.

Good to see another contender in the hair world, ill keep my eye on it, from my play with the plugin during the week I had enough crashed to lower my enthusiasm about it,but it is early days so with any luck that would iron out over time, people have to come to trust a new plugin, some times its a case of the evil you know over the evil that you don't.

Cheers

Rob

vfx
12-09-2009, 05:15 PM
even tho it sounds awesome, is not modelling the hair that tends to give me headaches, but lighting and rendering it without having to make comp tricks... :)

Agreed!! This is the most fustrating thing.

Thanks for the samples, but I still think the plugin works well for short hair/fur and not long hair, the way the different lengths overlap looks odd - almost as if theres some strange transparency thing going on.

fearnight2000
12-10-2009, 10:05 PM
Agreed!! This is the most fustrating thing.

the way the different lengths overlap looks odd - almost as if theres some strange transparency thing going on.

True!..i noticed it as well.
Furthermore, composting may be simple if you only want to compose the hair on your rendered character, but the problems start when you,let's say have shadows from the character that are not monochromatic, but have have hue and intensity variations due to GI, or FG, how can you produce such shadows from hair in order to match the existing ones with composting?..especially in animation.
Furthermore, the hair must be compatible (i haven't tried this yet) with the various atmospheric effects such as volume light or volume fog.

fearnight2000
01-10-2010, 05:51 PM
Sorry for the necropost, but anyone knows when this plugin will become functional? (full version out, the forum will work for everyone and not only for beta testers, a complete manual, etc)

ngrava
01-10-2010, 08:22 PM
Yeah, I'm really wondering this too. Have projects in the pipeline that could really use these features.

moulder6
10-22-2010, 02:56 PM
Hey, guys do u know if we can use Hairfarm materials with Hair&Fur, when we render with Mental Ray? When i try this with the demo, max crushes, whenever i start the rendering.

At work we use the native max plugin with p_HairTK, which is far more superior to the native hair&fur material, but still we have lots of character, who'd definitely gain from improving hair shading, though it's no good option if we should remodel all the hair/fur styles, even if it would be much more easier to do it with Hairfarm, compared to H&F combing n stuff...

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