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lildragon
08-18-2003, 06:14 PM
The bout is on or is it? ;) ding ding

http://www.cinescape.com/0/editorial.asp?aff_id=0&this_cat=Movies&action=page&type_id=&cat_id=270338&obj_id=39423

-lild

mental
08-18-2003, 07:08 PM
hey lildragon,

i don't know if anybody has mentioned this outright but Dreamworks always seems to be playing copycat as far as CG animations go. the exception being Shrek which was admittedly a lampoon on Disney's style of storytelling (so no orignality points there):

Toy Story (1995) | Small Soldiers (1998) > Toys
Bug's Life (1998) | Antz (1998) > Bugs
Finding Nemo (2003) | Sharkslayer (2003) > Fish

[/edit]now that i think of it Shrek was a rip as well:
Monsters Inc (2002) | Shrek (2002) > Mystical/Fairy Tales

you could argue that these films are nothing alike and they aren't when you look at the details. but on the conceptual level there's too much in common within the same time period. again this has nothing to do with the folks in the production. it just seems like somefolks in the boardroom are playing games.

on the other hand, i think that Blue Sky has the right formula for competing with Pixar: 'do your own thing and let the audience decide what to watch'. and for that they have my respect.

not that i'm biased or anything ;)

[/edit2]ok, ok... Ice Age (2002) could be considered rip of Dinosaurs (2000) as well > extinction, survival

but Robots will prove to be different!... not unless Pixar manages to shoehorn some robots into the Incredibles before November :rolleyes:

-mental :surprised

malducin
08-18-2003, 07:46 PM
Well you better get your facts straight. Both Antz and Shrek came out before A Bug's Life (by about a month) and Monsters Inc. (by about 6 months).

Second Small Soldiers was a live action movie by Joe Dante with the VFX provided by ILM.

A naive analysis would say it's actually Pixar the one behind and copying the concepts, but that would be unfrair and wrong.

And what about future projects, Pixar has The Incredibles and Cars, while PDI/Dreamworks has Shrek 2, Madagascar, Sharkslayer, and Over the Hedge. Not much connection there.

Dinosaurs is was Disney DQI/TSL project, there is no Pixar or PDI connection and it wasn't precisely an animated movie like the others.

As far as the article changing the title of Sharkslayer makes me grumble. Sure the excuse sounds fin but I wonder if the marketing geniuses wanted the slayer opart out so as to make it more appealing to "parents" and make it more kid palatable.

mental
08-18-2003, 07:58 PM
heya malducin, as the title of this thread suggests i boiled it down to Dreamworks versus Disney. with all of Pixar's titles falling under Disney's Aegis and works such as Small Soldiers going to Dreamworks regardless of the mechanics behind the productions.
And what about future projects... while PDI/Dreamworks has Shrek 2, Sharkslayer. Not much connection there.
Sharkslayer = Finding Nemo. Shrek 2 is the sequel to Shrek which i equated to Monsters Inc.

like i said earlier, if you look at the details these movies are very different but on the conceptual level there's too much in common between two rival companies with in a short period of time be in months or a couple of years.

-mental :surprised

Peter Reynolds
08-18-2003, 08:29 PM
Well its not just about release dates.

Bugs life went into production before antz.

You will have noticed a number of studios pushing out similar projects. Usually the both feel that whoever makes it to the box office first wins, because no one will want to see "another ..... film".

2 'volcano' films, 2 'asteroid will destroy the earth' films, etc, all within a close time span. This is aggressive business strategy.

What is interesting is that the brilliant doco Microcosmos came out before both Bugs Life and Antz went into production, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who was watching the doco, thinking it was great material for animation.

Konic
08-18-2003, 08:29 PM
Yes but Bug's life was in production first.The idea was already on the table then katsenburg left to Dreamworks,took the idea with him,twited shaked,stirred and up came Antz.No matter I love them both,all the better.Both companies can keep creating,all the better for me.I love em'.:thumbsup: :beer:

lildragon
08-18-2003, 08:37 PM
Why all the griping? at the end of the day we come away like bandits. We enjoy good flicks and they continue to make more so we stay employed! :cool: Competition gotta love it, end user most likely wins.

-lild

malducin
08-18-2003, 08:49 PM
That's what I said, any comparison like that would be naive and unfair. Besides what does Dreamworks having released Small Soldiers have anything to do with Toy Story? The connetion is nebulous at best and if anything it was more of aa derivative of dante's own Gremlins than Toy Story.

I love movies from all thiose companies, no griping from me.

Littleberu
08-18-2003, 08:55 PM
Finding Nemo (2003) | Sharkslayer (2003) > Fish

Sharkslayer isn't due out until november 2004.

Bugs life went into production before antz.

I thought some Antz team member went to Pixar because they weren't satisfied of the way the movie was going. I read that a long time ago.

mental
08-18-2003, 09:47 PM
Peter Reynolds understood the point i was trying to make.
You will have noticed a number of studios pushing out similar projects. 2 'volcano' films, 2 'asteroid will destroy the earth' films, etc, all within a close time span. This is aggressive business strategy.
Malducin I think you are too rapped up in the details of the production and not the overall buisness strategies between these two rival companies (which is what i believe this thread is about). For example:

yes there are huge technical differences between Toy Story and Toy Soldiers. but step back, and take a look at the two movies as an executive would, not an artist. Toy Story becomes a big hit, Dreamworks greenlights a vaguely similar production on 3D toys (forget about who directed it, from a cynical point of view the studio could careless as long as it sells).

production to production both companies have matched their products. yes it is nebulous but you'd figure two 'creative' houses would difersify their productions so that you don't have this cyclical over lap. be it pixar copying dreamworks or the other way around... just recognize the trend for what it is. and if you like the films... good! i like them too :)

now getting out of academia and back to reallife.... ;):

like lil'dragon said we're working in bountiful times and yes these films pay the bills but competition is ramping up (sharply i might add). my point is that this mirroring of ideas is going to be ruinous. Finding Nemo is the highest grossing animated movie of all time. Like it or not the 'naive and unfair' will compare Sharkslayer to this Nemo. If Sharkslayer fails it will be trouble (with a capital 'troub' ;))

the audience is fickle. superhero movies are starting to run their course in a couple of years the same may hold true for Animated movies (since the public lumps them all togethor) if the future animation houses don't spread out.

like you said 'Cars', 'Madagascar', 'Over the Hedge' and more are in production. hopefully they are different and interesting enough to hold the public's attention because if they don't... well just look at what happend to 2D and its recent trend of bland, action oriented story telling.

hope for the best.
-mental :surprised

BoydLake
08-18-2003, 10:37 PM
The truth is, Hollywood is a very conservative environment for producing films. Scripts/screenplays often circulate for years even decades before being picked up so nearly every major studio sees what creative ideas are being shopped around.

What seems to happen is that when rumor of one studio signing a story that most hollywood higher ups are familiar with, other studios rush to generate alternative versions of the same general story to compete with the original. It's like a massive herd of sheep waiting around until one individual finally leads out, with the rest of the herd in tow.

It has been happening in hollywood for quite awhile. It's not a coincidence that Deep Impact and Armageddon were released at about the same time, or Red Planet and Mission to Mars... and the list goes on and on.

Because of the dollars at stake in films today, large studios go more and more for the sure thing rather than taking risks on new concepts and ideas. It's much like what John Carmak was saying about the games market and large budget titles vs. small budgets. The smaller budgets can bear more risk taking in content and feature development. the same principle applies to Hollywood.

BoydLake
08-18-2003, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by mental
hey lildragon,

i don't know if anybody has mentioned this outright but Dreamworks always seems to be playing copycat as far as CG animations go. the exception being Shrek which was admittedly a lampoon on Disney's style of storytelling (so no orignality points there):

Toy Story (1995) | Small Soldiers (1998) > Toys
Bug's Life (1998) | Antz (1998) > Bugs
Finding Nemo (2003) | Sharkslayer (2003) > Fish

[/edit]now that i think of it Shrek was a rip as well:
Monsters Inc (2002) | Shrek (2002) > Mystical/Fairy Tales

<snip>


Ya lost me there. Shrek as a rip is a stretch to me. Monsters inc. has virtually no reference to traditional fairy tales unless you're generally considering fairy tales to include any story about monsters, told to kids.




but Robots will prove to be different!... not unless Pixar manages to shoehorn some robots into the Incredibles before November :rolleyes:

-mental :surprised

Well Pixar is working on Cars, and they are mechanical in nature, so maybe there is a parallel there. ;)

Jackmars
08-19-2003, 02:20 AM
Originally posted by lildragon
Why all the griping? at the end of the day we come away like bandits. We enjoy good flicks and they continue to make more so we stay employed! :cool: Competition gotta love it, end user most likely wins.

-lild


Words of wisdom,thnaks for saying it so i did'nt have to.:p :beer:

mark_wilkins
08-19-2003, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by malducin
PDI/Dreamworks has Shrek 2, Madagascar, Sharkslayer, and Over the Hedge. Not much connection there.

PDI/DreamWorks is working on Shrek 2 and Madagascar while Sharkslayer (or whatever) and Over the Hedge are being made at DreamWorks Animation in Glendale.


Dinosaurs is was Disney DQI/TSL project

Dinosaur had virtually no DreamQuest involvement (though they were going to build some miniatures for the cave interior that ended up being done with CG and matte paintings,) and The Secret Lab didn't even exist until shortly before its release (at which point the brand-new logo was slapped on the film.)

Honestly, I've never seen the connection between Monster's Inc. and Shrek. Still, since Shrek was based on a very charming William Steig children's book, it doesn't seem like a very plausible argument to suggest that it was ripped off from Monster's Inc.

-- Mark

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