Q: Do real-time games use bumps, specular (etc.) yet?

[CGmonkey]

Well I think bumpmaps on a character model will never arrive, since a much better better method called Normal Mapping already is here.

I think the new games (doom3 hl2 etc) uses both spec and normal mapping :)

So just have patience :)

[DAJYMO]

Doom 3 uses

Normal maps, bump maps, specular maps and diffuse maps.

Realy cool.:applause:

[baaah888]

The PS2 doesnt even suport real time bumpmapping, so i doubt bumpmapping or normal mapping will be here yet, But there is no harm knowing the techniques, as the industry will start working on the next generation of consoles in the next 5-6 months.

[eMPeck]

Me and few my friends are developing sf fpp game, and we will be using color, specular, alpha and normal maps.

[jussing]

Great, thanks to all of you for the replies so far!

I guess this means I can safely put color, bump, alpha & spec maps on the models for my reel, without getting dissed for using "more maps than commonly used in real-time"?

Cheers,
- Jonas

[TheWriter]

"The PS2 doesnt even suport real time bumpmapping, so i doubt bumpmapping or normal mapping will be here yet, But there is no harm knowing the techniques, as the industry will start working on the next generation of consoles in the next 5-6 months."
--------------

Are you kidding? PS2 does have bump mapping. It just doesnt work well when trying to use bump mapping WITH reflections.
Also, PS2 is quite a low end system these days anyhow for development, so why you decided to refer to it and the recent future causes me to raise another eyebrow.

[baaah888]

Sorry Thewriter but your wrong the PS2 does not suport real time bump mapping definatly, they sony tech team said that it doesnt support it,

I know one programmer who would argue against me as he managed to get bumpmapping working on a PS2 but it took 4 passes which is far to high for real time engine running at a decent frame rate.

Quite frankly im surprised the PS2 has done as well as it has as it is a shoddy machine that is hard to program and has crap controllers, but the public want what they want.

[CADster]

Originally posted by baaah888
Quite frankly im surprised the PS2 has done as well as it has as it is a shoddy machine that is hard to program and has crap controllers, but the public want what they want.

this should show you that games make a system, not specs.

the public wants enjoyable games.

[baaah888]

well i wouldnt say that, Otherwise nintendo or microsoft would be top,

Public opinion sells consoles to the masses. you make something cool and it will sell, i wont deny there are some stunning games on the PS2 but they dont sell it, image and marketing sell it. Sony have made it cool to be a casual gamer and made PS2 the kings new robes of the public eye.

ive got all 3 consoles and tons of games, and the PS2 is probably the least played of all cause the games just aren't as fun or challenging as x-box or nintendo's and no 4 player and rubbish controllers make the experience even less enjoyable. I a games multi format and good i would never buy PS2,

basically Eye toy, DDR games, and Black wind from Atomic planet are good promising games PS2 only games (for me at the moment).

Im sure someone will backlash in the defence of Ps2. And i hope you do as i want to be persuaded or shown others opinions but at the moment the future looks microsoft or nintendo for me.

[bentllama]

Halo 2.

[FatAssasin]

Maybe this isn't the best place for a console flame war. I'm currently working on a high profile movie license game and we're not adding bump mapping to anything because the PS2 doesn't support it, and there's no time to do extra work for the Xbox version.

GameCube and Xbox do support it though, and I'm sure all the next next-gen consoles will. So go ahead and add it into you demo reel if you want. But don't go crazy, it's still better to show that you can paint a high quality texture that stands up on its own without having to rely on extras like bump and specular maps.

[Littleberu]

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/eqChampNorrath_071003_07.jpg

If THAT is not bump mapping, tell me what it is.

[TheWriter]

If your SDK does not handle bump mapping for PS2, blame your engine, not PS2.

From the RW docs..

On PlayStation 2 it's too expensive for bump mapping to effect the surface
normals used for environment mapping. Bump mapping combined with
environment mapping does not use environment mapping but uses emboss
mapping instead. However, the displayed results look the same on all
platforms using RpMatFX.

[FatAssasin]

Well, there you go. I've been told at two different companies that the PS2 doesn't support bump mapping. I guess they just weren't trying hard enough.

Now that that's settled, can we get back to answering Jonas' questions? :)

[baaah888]

Im with Fat assassin on this i was told by the art director at a sony first party studio that PS2 does not support in game bump mapping.

and quite frankly that picture could be doctored. what games it from, is it a released game, and you sure thats not a nice presentation pic, lots of companies produce amazing little demos to show publishers to get funding and that might be from one of those. (i may be wrong but i stand by what ive heard and know for the moment)

[Littleberu]

Champions of Norrath (Snowblind Studio). There is Bump Mapping in released games such as Silent Hill 3, Primal or even SSX Tricky.

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/ChampNorrath_071103_05.jpg
[Champions of Norrath - Snowblind Studio - championsofnorrath.station.sony.com]

[CADster]

is the orginal question directed at consoles or PC games ????

if its PC, then several games have these features.. i think the first game i saw that had at least detail mapping and map overlays was American McGees ALICE. today, almost every game has at least some bump mapping on the terrain (course you need a new card to see it)

when you got it working Aquanox was breathtaking.. its slam full of goodies. morrowind is another, looks great with lots of advanced features

some game worth keeping an eye on -
battlefield command

http://www.codemasters.com/battlefieldcommand/usa/battlefieldcommand.php

S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Oblivion Lost

http://www.gamezone.com/gamesell/p21243.htm

and another called soldat or solder or something ... its the german word for soldier i tihnk.

http://www.jowood.com/gamers/index.php?site=1&lang=en&ScreenID=8223

these games are far exceeding what todays consoles can do.


if its the console .... i dont know, Halo has some of these features but i hate the Xbox controller too much to really play (but i own one)

my favorite console is still the dreamcast (have one as well, and still play it)


@baaah888 - i think the PS2 is doing so well because of its games (like i said, a system is only is as good as its game base). Nintendo targets the younger audence, years ago this was where the money was, but todays its not the case. Sony makes more mature games and this attracts an older audence.

[jussing]

Again, thanks to everyone for their posts! It's nice to see different angels discribed.

Originally posted by CADster
is the orginal question directed at consoles or PC games ????

Good question, actually... I think I had PC games in mind, but the companies I'd send a reel to also port their games to consoles, so it'd have to be both, really...

Anyway, thanks a billion for all the feedback, opinions, thoughts & screenshots! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Cheers,
- Jonas

[bentllama]

Originally posted by FatAssasin
GameCube and Xbox do support it though, and I'm sure all the next next-gen consoles will. So go ahead and add it into you demo reel if you want. But don't go crazy, it's still better to show that you can paint a high quality texture that stands up on its own without having to rely on extras like bump and specular maps.

I disagree. Show that you can successfully mesh the three...

Normal/bump maps are in no way something extra that can hide pure texturing ability. Normal mapping skills will be required for 2nd generation next gen consoles...as will texutring and specular skills...

Let's face it, there will always be the new "lens flare" out there, but make sure your work is not the gimmick...

[FatAssasin]

Let's face it, there will always be the new "lens flare" out there, but make sure your work is not the gimmick...

My point exactly.

[TheWriter]

To Baaah, and who ever is still in doublt, i'll post some more of the RW specs:

-----------------
Environment and Bump Mapping
Environment mapping is used in RenderWare Graphics to add reflectivity to
objects. It can be used to simulate effects such as chrome plating, glass or
water. We recommended that you use the RwMaterial for environment
mapping as it provides the direct settings provided by RenderWare
Graphics.
Bump mapping can be used to simulate rough surfaces such as stone or
tree bark.
✎

PlayStation 2
In RenderWare Graphics for PlayStation 2,
RpMatFXMaterialSetEnvMapFrameBufferAlpha() is used to modulate the environment
mapping by frame buffer alpha (for those video modes that support it). For the bumpenvironment
mapping effect, the frame buffer alpha contains the bump alpha value and
the result gives the appearance of the reflection being affected by the bumps.

[baaah888]

The writer, ok i know now you can get it on the Ps2, im just stuborn :hmm: i come round eventually, but its just i got told literally last thursday and so it was its been playing in my head when discussing this, But i know that PS2 was origionally not intended to support bump maps.

Thats the fun and wonderment of the games industry, there are so many talented people doing things all the time that counter other peoples knowledge.

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