CGTalk - 3D game animation portfolio

Nickray3d

10-09-2009, 02:39 PM

Some of the animations are really nicely done. I think that the flat renderings kinda take away from them and distract the eye a little tho. Also, its kinda long. I've always thought that 1 minute to 1:30 would be enough. Maybe shorten it with your very best stuff. Also, how exactly did you get those models / rigs? Did you import them into 3dstudio max from the game cds or something??

thejazzman

10-09-2009, 02:45 PM

Yeah I agree about the length. This is actually a second version. The original was about 3 minutes 40 seconds, which was way too long.

As for the flat rendering, I THOUGHT it would make ppl concentrate on the animation rather than the models, but a lot of people have said the same thing, so I'm currently putting all the models and animation into the source game engine, rendered with textures etc.

As for where I got the models, they're all ripped from either Half Life, Dark Messiah, or World of Warcraft, they each took various methods to extract but it's not super hard really. They're all reskinned in Max except for the horse and dragon. The rig used for pretty much everything is Brad Noble's biped rig, which is free but I had to pay for the resizing scripts.

Thanks for the feedback

Nickray3d

10-10-2009, 01:46 PM

well rendered or not, it all depends on how your going to show it. If its going to be streaming on a website, its usually good to have a small file size which would mean play blasts or low quality renders but if your going to be sending out actual copies to studios, then yea I'd render them to the best you can.

as for the ripping of the models, i have all those games but i guess I've never really looked up online on how to do that myself. Hopefully those studios don't mind you using their models. It'd probably be a good idea to contact them and get their permission.

thejazzman

10-10-2009, 02:52 PM

Yeah I contacted the companies but didn't actually get a reply from any of them, and since I've bought every product they've put out over the years I've probably earned the use of them in my opinion, especially since I have a pretty obvious disclaimer at the start.

Danne26

10-10-2009, 03:32 PM

Really like it a lot!!! Some timing things here and there but pretty nice I must say!
Some of the shadows are way to dark and distracting.

But keep the good work up!

dbalmert

10-11-2009, 12:51 AM

In regards to the Blizzard game models:Don't use World of Warcraft models.

It's their property, and you must understand that game animation is a TINY industry. If someone finds out you've stolen models, it's a quick way to get black listed from a particular studio. Not saying you WILL, but it's a risk.

I don't think anyone cares if you put a disclaimer at the beginning. The COMPANY owns those models, not even the artists themselves. You are stealing from the company, and telling them that you did doesn't make it okay.

Their licenses are actually pretty damn explicit that you have no permission to use or extract any of their art assets. You are paying to play the game and nothing more.

Their animation looks pretty good, but I'd be very wary of using it in any form on a reel. You probably should have either waited for permission (they would never grant it) or asked in the Forums if it was okay to use, because I can't think of anything else you can use that clip for.

You won't get sued or anything, but it's probably a bit tacky and in bad taste, especially since they haven't made the models publicly available on purpose.

thejazzman

10-11-2009, 01:52 AM

Ok this is a problem.

I've been to blizzcon before, and one of the events they hold there is a fan machinima contest. 95% of the machinima is created by using this program and the best stuff is done by extracting the models. How could they be annoyed about it if they showcase this sort of stuff at their convention.

What's the difference between this and say, icefrog (whos currently runs defence of the ancients) being hired by valve on the strength of his work using warcraft 3's models and map editor? (This is something that actually happened a few days ago btw)

I'm not sure exactly what to do about this, I mean. The tools to extract these models are extremely simple and the particular program in question, you can tell that blizzard themselves use it for banners and stuff on their website (Im referring to the wow model viewer).

I don't want to brush off what you're saying at all, but Id like more from you to be honest, in light of what I've just said, can you tell me why I shouldn't use the models? Blizzard talked at the most recent blizzcon about how they will let popular starcraft 2 mods charge money for downloading off battlenet, what I'm doing is a far cry from that, and that's a developer supported program.

Do you know what I mean? I understand you're a professional and so I want your input but it seems a bit of a joke that anybody would have a problem with this.

EDIT: I'd really like a reply to this if you have the time, because obviously I don't want to feel like Im about to get blacklisted from the animation industry

EDIT2: Do people consider this stealing? I'm actually very depressed about this now, feedback from anybody on this issue would be very welcome.

shadermonkey

10-11-2009, 02:57 AM

wow...

as I always say as a disclaimer: "I'm no animator" so take it for what it is

Great job on the animation.

The rendering is extremely distracting... I actually focused more on the bad renders than the animations at times.

As opinions are like a-holes in that everybody has one, here's mine...

I've been there... it's sometimes extremely difficult to find models to texture or rigged models to animate. Especially when the quality of either can effect that latter...
That being said, I think if you give credit where credit is due // email the artists and company // AND NEVER USE THE ASSETS FOR MONETARY GAIN! you should be ok.

If an animator took my stuff to animate and let me know I'd be ok with it. If somehow I saw his animation reel and didn't receive an email nor was i credited then I'd definitely not be suggesting you for hire.

Create a poll... hopefully a bunch of other industry heads can shine some more light on the morality of this and you'll be able to make a better judgment call.

Best of luck!

Which software are you using to render?

thejazzman

10-11-2009, 03:47 AM

Everything that looks rendered in game is in the source engine. Everything else is rendered in 3D studio max. I tend not to put much stuff in the scenes or use fancy lighting set ups because my comp takes a LONG time to render things.

I have been converting a lot of the animations to run in real time in the source engine, or I might just render the scenes with full texture maps and better lighting in max. (Im doing a lot of changes to pretty much every animation first though, based off a lot of feedback ive got on a bunch of forums like this one)

shadermonkey

10-11-2009, 04:06 AM

Cool James...

I wouldn't render all the color textures. For what it's worth, I would create an almost clay-ish shader that's self-illuminated with just the normal maps applied if you have them. As far as some additional lighting, maybe one directional light casting a shadow for contact between objects. Or even just a nice occlusion pass.

Either way, I'm sure you'll do great!

I'll definitely be following ur thread.

thejazzman

10-11-2009, 03:18 PM

Yeah I do personally prefer the idea of not having the full colour textures. I've never really done anything with shaders or occlusion but I'll look up how I can do that stuff. Luckily I do have all the normal maps so at least that base is covered.

dbalmert

10-11-2009, 05:16 PM

Well, here's the thing -

You need to go about it by feel. I had never been to Blizzcon, but I know how tightly wound Blizzard can be about its assets. If, as you say, the executives and artists are both in support of and are OBVIOUSLY aware of the program that extracts their assets and have expressed thier opinions of it, then there is much less of a problem.

Machinema is using Blizzard's game engine and "playing" thier game in a way that tells a story. I'm not sure how your animations can count as "Machinema" if you are completly extracting the models, bringing them into a 3rd party program, rigging and resizing them, and doing custom animations. The only thing you've done is used the game engine to render it.

I know you're not claiming it IS Machinema, but you're trying to say "If they can do it, why can't I?" and I'm trying to explain the differences. If, as you say, people are already doing this model extraction stuff and it's already very popular and widely known by Blizzard, then I wouldn't be so worried.

Try to talk to someone at Blizzard Customer Service about that, though.

The reason I'm saying be careful was because someone asked a question about using the Animation Mentor rig guy to do some animations (having never attended AM before).

Thread here: http://forums.cgsociety.org/archive/index.php/t-585985.html

Again, just use your judgment. Also, Blizzard doesn't necesarrily use any special programs to make their banners; they have the real models right next to them and an infinite number of Maya seats. They may develop some tools to make the process faster, but who knows.

thejazzman

10-11-2009, 10:31 PM

I can guarantee they have specifically used this program in the past, but that's not really relevant, the point is, well the point is all the stuff I said in the original post about this.

I will one again contact blizzard but theres not a chance in hell the customer support guy will know what the f--- im on about, and they will not reply to my email.

I should have asked Mike Morhaime himself when I got his autograph.

Anyway, this is extremely frustrating to even think about, I cant see why Blizzard would have a problem with this but never have asked the program makers to remove the 'extract model' feature.

I'd really rather this hadn't become a thread about copyright, but now that it is, could you give me the specifics of ''I know how tightly wound Blizzard can be about its assets''?

I can't help feeling this has been blown way out of proportion, but if you can help me by, I don't know, telling me about your friend at Blizzard who gets furious about game assets being decompiled, then I'd appreciate it.

P.S. to be perfectly clear I haven't used the blizzards rig, engine, etc. I have used the models and textures. If that is the same as using the animation mentor rig, then nevermind.

Nickray3d

10-12-2009, 03:19 AM

Yeah Blizzard is a pretty serious company and I wouldn't think they'd like it too much if someone were using their models like this BUT that being said, their a very busy / huge company also and may not even care. My friend, whom I roomed with in college for a few years, well his cousin is the animation director at blizzard for their new and upcoming game (after diablo 3 and starcraft 2) I will see if my friend can contact him w/ this question on how he would feel BUT the guy is insanely busy and I seriously doubt my friend would get an honest answer. In fact, it'd probably just piss the guy off :) My friend was lucky enough to take a 5 day trip to stay w/ his cousin and get feedback on his demo reel after he graduated AM. He toured the california blizzard studio, and alot of their stuff is supposedly top secret, but anyway, i'll run the question to my friend so we can get you hopefully a full answer.

Also, you mentioned the AM rig. I recall that animation mentor has very strict policies about anyone that uses those rigs in their reels that did not have anything to do with am. Also, the students arent allowed to share / give the rigs to anyone else either.

Hope this helps

dbalmert

10-12-2009, 05:49 PM

I can't help feeling this has been blown way out of proportion, but if you can help me by, I don't know, telling me about your friend at Blizzard who gets furious about game assets being decompiled, then I'd appreciate it.

I already told you - it's not the artists that mind, but the company as an entity would not like it.

If you're sure that Blizzard supports the machinema stuff, then use it confidently. If you have doubts, wait and ask. Nevermind the doubts *I* raised. I have never worked at Blizzard nor had any friends in high positions at Blizzard, but they are a very successful company. Successful companies spend a lot of time and energy protecting their assets, no matter what the industry.

I say go ahead and keep it in. Just don't apply for a job at Blizzard or Activision until you get a firm answer.

thejazzman

10-12-2009, 06:21 PM

Fair enough, I've been doing a lot of heavy revision to each animation in the reel. And once that's all done in a couple of weeks I'll make make a firm decision on what I'm doing with the blizzard stuff.

Speaking of heavy revision, let's get some animation crits! Take a look at this first draft of an animation I keyed last night ( I had been making revision to the judo throw animation, and decided I should try something from scratch and see if I could do plain better).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C16Qmj2LZiM

dbalmert

10-12-2009, 06:31 PM

It needs more anticipation on the first punch. Right now it just follows the rhythm of the roll, and it comes off as soft.

The judo throw looks weak because he's not using his hips correctly. The hips are used to absorb the foe's center of gravity, lift UP, then proceed to control their center of gravity. You're totally missing the "lift up" part. His hip needs to contact the other guy's hip (lower than the opponent) then lift up and perform the throw.

This action looks like a Hollywood movie judo throw, and that shouldn't be what you shoot for in animation.

Reference: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DoeSFLNeEPE

See how he's almost straight legged when the throw is performed?

thejazzman

10-12-2009, 06:33 PM

Yeah I agree on both counts. I MAY end up scrapping the judo throw but I'll have another bash at doing the hips properly before then. As for the rolling punch, I'll try to build the anticipation more. Right now I'm actually working on the animation of the cyclops lifting the rock, so I might not get onto those 2 animation today.

dbalmert

10-12-2009, 06:37 PM

For future reference, On a first draft, don't switch everything to spline/linear tangents. Keep everything stepped and broken up so we can see the key poses and judge them before inbetwening them.

You can't fix a bad pose with linear tangents.

When you're working, treat each pose as a drawing and polish it a little before moving to the next one. You don't need fingers and facial animation working totally, but the rest of the full body acting should get done in passes.

thejazzman

10-12-2009, 06:45 PM

I'll briefly explain the process I'm going through at the moment to animate b/c I don't think I'm going through the processes I should be.

For that rolling animation, I first did all the rolling guys stuff then the guy getting flipped afterwards to match.

I make keyframe poses every few frames (usally about 4-5 but generally just whenever the pose significantly changes) and then I just go in and modify the little inbetween bits as I see fit. Should I be in some sort of 'dont tween between frames' mode? Or are you suggesting I put in the poses with no frames inbetween, and later I stretch them frames out?

dbalmert

10-12-2009, 07:49 PM

You should make a key pose any time a contact occurs. The punch connecting, any steps taken, and any time you need to pay attention to the shifting of weight and force. For your roll, you'll need 5-7 keys because so many contacts occur so quickly, but after that you just need to key connections between guy A and B.

Putting keys in randomly will seem to work, but it defeats the purpose of PLANNING the shots. Don't worry about putting in arcs to smooth out a motion. At the early stages, you need to concentrate on posing more. Doing pose-to-pose style animation is good for organic and expressive movements, but not good for anything that needs a lot of planning, like a judo throw.

I do most of my work in Maya, and there's a simple way to change tangents. I'm not sure how to do it in Max, but I think there should be a way.

You should be stretching and moving the keys around as you are scrubbing to get a sense of the timing. That's also the reason you need to key the ENTIRE pose, so you don't end up just moving the hand keys, or the foot keys, but rather you move EVERYTHING as a unit so that the pose can be timed out.

Here's an example of a scene I'm working on. This was the first pass. Mind you, It's still not great, but I'm just showing you this to give you an idea what I'm talking about when I say "stepped keys." It helps to see what each pose looks like and I can easily say "That key pose looks weak/unreadable, so I need to tweak it to look sweet."

http://www.dynamitarchive.com/archives/dan/push1.avi

Wilson-3d

10-13-2009, 01:33 AM

The flat shading works for me. I like it, but that is what will drive people crazy about demo reels. Everyone likes something else. I try to go with changes that a lot of people seem to be mentioning and then follow my gut. I think the animation is looking good. I would drop the long one where the guy is swinging and climbing up the boards. You have plenty of betting animation in there and this one seemed to drag for me and not be up to par with a lot of the others. I would still probably do another edit also and trim some more off. If you are showing the same type of animation twice perhaps try to pick the one you think is the strongest. That is what I try at least. The last time I was updating my reel I had a new piece that I added. A friend of my said - what does this add to the real that is not already represented? Damn, he was right and I had older pieces that represented that particular kind of movement better so I just added it to my animation page on my web site and not me reel. Just a thought. Nice work over all!

thejazzman

10-13-2009, 03:07 AM

Yeah I think the wall climbing really drags on, however I've gotta lot of people telling me that they think it's a strong piece, particularly the beginning where he swings on the bar. I am thinking about just cutting out the part after hes on the bar, or doing a similar but new and much better (and much much shorter) prince of persia style climbing sequence.

Here's what I was working on tonight:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfGQ8EUXEI8

To be clear on what I'm doing at the moment. I'm re-rendering pretty much everything in the reel and in the vast majority of cases I am doing massive revisions or make overs. So for example that video is a complete new draft from scratch of the 'cyclops lifts rock' animation from the reel. I'm hoping to get a new much improved reel ready in say, 2 weeks.

Oh and in case you guys missed it, here's the other new draft I made in the last 2 days:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C16Qmj2LZiM

and here is what I'm looking to replace with that roll (but I'm still on the fence)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbrk7oPUBP8

mistasam02

10-13-2009, 03:55 AM

Dude you're a really good animator! This is pro stuff, but I do agree that using this to find a job would throw up red flags all over the place. What if you created your own rough meshes to replace on the rigs? There has to be some way to get around it. I don't think this stuff would fly though, unfortunately. A company would ask you where you got the rigs, and even though a lot of people do it, it's still risque because you're doing it to find work and not just to show off cool machinima. That being said, I think you have amazing talent, and you're gonna go far! :D Good luck!

thejazzman

10-13-2009, 03:09 PM

Thanks for the encouragement, it's really nice to hear positive stuff from pros to make sure I haven't been deluding myself for the past 7 months.

As for the Blizzard meshes, I'm just not sure what will end up happening, I'm going to see if I manage to have gotten any sort of response from them by the time the reel is done, and if I have to make changes then that's life.

Here's the current version of the cylcops lift I had been focusing on, I'm leaving it for the time being and going back to the rolling combat sequence linked above. Then I can hopefully get on with whatever else needs fixing up and get a new version of the reel up and running.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IclGYHmhPHE

dbalmert

10-13-2009, 05:50 PM

If something is really heavy, it's very hard to move it above your center of gravity without some sort of jerking motion. It's because your shoulders have a range of power - below a certain degree your shoulders are very powerful, but become weaker as the angle goes parallel to the ground.

Your ogre lifts the ball too easily from his stomach over his shoulder.

Also, he "pulls" the ball from his chest instead of pushing it. It makes the ball seem weightless. He probably needs to quickly change his grip to PUSH the ball onto the ledge instead of pull at the awkward angle.

- OR - You need to make his chest push the ball in a more exaggerated way. Right now, it doesn't seem to read.

He seems to lean a bit too far forward when holding the ball. Remember: when he picks up a heavy object, his center of gravity changes and he needs to have different posing to look like he's balanced.

thejazzman

10-14-2009, 01:25 AM

Hey, great great crits, I'll pretty much just try and do exactly what you've outlined then repost a new version.

One thing though, when you say ''He seems to lean a bit too far forward when holding the ball'' do you mean just in general as he is standing holding it, or at a specific point in time?

thejazzman

10-14-2009, 12:07 PM

Ok I put a fair bit of time into this, is this better? I'm going to switch to another animation now or I'll get burned out on this lift

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TZRzwdA2tI

dbalmert

10-14-2009, 05:36 PM

You can spend eternity tweaking an animation and still never feel it's "done". My critique of leaning forward was for when he was holding the ball near his knees and trying to lift it up.

The latest version is pretty good. Leave it alone and come back to it later if you feel like it.

thejazzman

10-14-2009, 05:54 PM

Yeah you're right, I've let it be for now. Working on the platforming section right now, I think I'm going to cut the majority of it, as it drags a bit,

Take a look at this clip Ive been reworking, does anything stick out?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGxv9W8L03M

Also, I need some more feedback about what to tackle in the reel.

Do I NEED to have facial animation in the reel, or how big of a pro is it on the list?

How are the facial animations in the reel? If I need to have facial stuff, shall I start over with it with a pretty decent facial reel I have for max?

dbalmert

10-14-2009, 06:14 PM

His second swing is jittery. Smooth it out and it should work.

Facial animation: I don't think you really need it in a game animation demo reel. You'll get a test, most likely, and they'll have you do a few animations, a few cycles, and that's it. Facial stuff is not needed and will only impress people if you do it REALLY WELL.

Like anything in your reel, it has to be top notch stuff. It can't be "just cuz I think I need it."

thejazzman

10-14-2009, 08:42 PM

I've been discussing these same issues on polycount and I'm definitely going to take the facial stuff out. If I can make a great facial animation with some cool rig in max then I will, but I'm not going to stick one in there just to tick a box.

I reworked the horse walk (once somebody mentioned that it was 2 poses instead of 4 independent steps it became so glaring I wanted to fix it asap).

Here it is, it should be about right now, footwork wise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVwrnZ0irQg

If you think it's off don't hesitate to tell me.

With the swinging thing. I definitely want an animation of that kind in the reel. Do you think the swing is good enough? I could start again tonight and take a look at some prince of persia footage or something.
I'm not going to keep the rest of the climbing animation, its cut, but I will most likely replace it with some better, pacier climbing from scratch. Is the swing as good as the best of my other stuff?

I want to make sure I'm not leaving in any weak links.

Ty for any feedback.

MikeAnimates

10-15-2009, 12:26 AM

Hey guys, I just stumbled on this thread and thought that I would throw in my two cents.

Overall, I think your animation is on the right track. You certainly have the fundamentals, and skill. You just need practice and polish. Dan is giving you some great feedback and it's nice seeing how excited you are to kick out some really good work!

As far as the whole copyright dilemma goes, I strongly encourage you to remove any models that aren't yours, or that you don't have written consent to use.

What Dan mentioned earlier in this thread is how incredibly small this industry is. Showing rigs that you didn't work on and/or that are not yours is not a good practice. I would agree that most artists don't care, but studios/corporations hold that property very very close along with the management that will potentially hire you.

Let's say just for arguments sake that Blizzard and Valve don't really care if you use their models. Even if that's the case, other studios may. Epic probably doesn't want to hire someone they fear will take their Marcus Fenix model/rig. Bungie most likely doesn't want to hire someone they fear will grab the Master Chief model/rig. To many studios, that is considered stealing.

I am by no means questioning your honesty or accusing you of theft. You aren't selling anything and you've only planned on using these models to help improve your animation and land a job. I just think if you asked 10 industry professionals, 9 would frown on this.

Is there any way you can retarget these animations to another model or just use the underlying biped? Great animation on a generic biped is still great animation! I have seen many people get into the gaming industry with nothing more than bipeds. In Maya, I personally use different free rigs online like Loman or Moom.

I know this is a bummer, but I felt I should at least weigh in. If you have any questions, I'll check back on this thread, or feel free to message me privately.

Best of luck!

thejazzman

10-15-2009, 01:24 PM

Hey thanks for the post.

Since the rig is actually paid for by me, I can certainly use any of the animation here just showing the biped. Now obviously that's far from ideal, because I've built these animations with the models in mind, but I'm going to have to tackle this one way or another. I think I can definately get permission from valve, so I'm going to get in contact with them ASAP. My friend recently spent some time with Gabe Newell and Eric Johnson (he was the australian guy who flew them over to see his left 4 dead map) so I think I can get an email response through him if needs be.

For Arkane studios it will definitely be more difficult. I have emailed them before and gotten nothing, I will see if I can get a phone number, and I just keep spamming them until I get a response.

I think if I get in contact with them they will understand that since I'm not using any rig of theirs, it might be ok to let me use the models, but I will definitely seek permission before I launch applications.

I think the trickiest is going to be Blizzard, I'm just going to have to spam their email. I wish I had known this was going to be such an issue. I literally ONLY got Blizzard models specifically to APPLY to them. I thought they'd like it.

Anyway, I have a completely new animation almost finished to show you guys. Should be here in about 1 and a half hours