CGTalk - How many Freelancers here?

LucentDreams

08-11-2003, 06:33 AM

Man these type of questions come up a lot, and I still dont' see the importance. If you must know, sure studios are using them, Heck MAxon just recently announced their Deal with Sony Pictures Imageworks who will be using BP2 on all future projects. Imaginary forces uses it, their are individual artists who use it in feature production.

As for Freelancing, I'm using C4D for freelancing, though most of my business right now is teaching more in Studio Max then C4D locally, thats because the only local studio uses Max (BIOWARE)

For freelance what app you use shouldn't affect your getting a job unless collaboration with other freelances is a concern, as the issue of compatibility does come up. Otherwise the client usually could care less aobut what your using, and more about what your doing.

Right now the Markets I think Cinema is starting to really get a hold of, are Architectural and previz, Cinema makes for an awesome previz app, its quick and easy. C4D tends to get faster results which is important to the previz stage.

MJV

08-11-2003, 06:52 AM

add to that product layout visualization.

LucentDreams

08-11-2003, 07:05 AM

Originally posted by MJV
add to that product layout visualization.

Yes very true, though C4D has been used a lot for that in the past too, but yes another strong area.

MJV

08-11-2003, 07:44 AM

Right. Also, commercial production and broadcast graphics.

kromekat

08-11-2003, 09:22 AM

I use Cinema for freelance illustration, and this year that has included work for medical companies (fairly abstract), a poster for a major West End musical, animated icons for the web etc.

Cinema may have some key areas of use, but for me, and I would think many others too, it's just another tool that gets used for a lot of different tasks and genre's. :thumbsup:

wesware

08-11-2003, 07:10 PM

I've been using Cinema professionally right out of the box for 3 years now. Took a few months to put together a demo and got work right away. I am not always busy with it but it has been a real blessing for my business. Illustration dried up a little and 3D came along just at the right time.

I have produced:
Print media
Broadcast commercials
Company ident/logo work
trade show animations
web animations

It is a very versatile and powerful program, yet my clients still say "Cinema 4 what?" But that seems to be changing even in the last year or so.

flyingP

08-11-2003, 08:30 PM

Good my major is storyboards and layout illustration(visuals) and the need for 3D has even crept in there on occasions, Cinema has been most helpfull.

JoelOtron

08-11-2003, 10:10 PM

As a freelancer, the technique you have is much more important than the app you use.

The issue of what app you choose to use does come up from time to time, but only in maybe 5% of the projects I've done. It only is an issue when a client needs to incorporate your work into their own pipeline in some way. If you were looking for a full time or project base on-site gig, you would probably need to know the app the studio/client was using (which usually would not be C4d).

I do a lot of:
• Science and Medical Animation for Pharma, Universities (distance learning modules) and medical web sites. All done with an emphasis on training or teaching about a procedure, a condition, or a drug MOA. I do this for broadcast, web, and cdroms.

• some industrial animation

• some product visualization

• A lot of illustration for college level Science / Medical textbooks, childrens textbooks and some magazines. I use 3d as a starting point and build my images in photoshop and illustrator.

I use Cinema 4d in some way for almost everything I do.

danb

08-11-2003, 10:46 PM

Excellent. Thanks peeps, those were the sort of replies that i was hoping for. Very informative. Keep it up.

JIII

08-12-2003, 12:24 AM

hmm I use the big box thing to hold pencils.

thats about the extent of my work anyway.

sadly I don't get paid for it.

station75

08-12-2003, 06:49 AM

hey

i use c4d:
- in webdesign
- tv spots nad ads
- interactive tv games
- illustration

for two years of freelancing.

ODoul

08-12-2003, 07:05 AM

Kai, I think you answered his question in an educated and informative manner, yet, I'm a bit bothered by your intollerance with questions like this. I think that it's a completely valid question. There seems to be a lack of tollerance around here sometimes that is a bit alarming. I'm a newbie with a licensed copy complete with manuals and I don't always find all the answers I'm looking for. Granted, I won't be asking the "how do I make a sphere question" but if this isn't a place to ask valid questions of our fellow 3d junkies, then what is it. ALL questions can't be about timeline curves and bones, can they. If so, perhaps it's better to seek answers to my questions elsewhere. -- 3d_e

Per-Anders

08-12-2003, 07:23 AM

no, i think it's valid here, it's very easy to do a search on these topics before posting. or even just a basic search through maxons site or on google will help you find the answers to these sorts of questions.

questions that seemingly ask for justification of using a particular tool because "it's been used on such and such film" or "by such and such an artist" or "for such and such things" is generally frowned upon in cgtalk. just take it as said, whatever you use, it doesn't need the justification, it's about the artist, not being a slave to the tool.

while at times it may not seem so (for instance the "Dale" threads in general talk), cgtalk is a forum for professionals where non professionals and beginners may also come and hang out. and yes, it is elitist.

feel free to ask technical questions here in the app specific forums, or post works asking for help and comment, but for more general stuff usually (unless it's really really pertinent to the subforum in question, and the users there) use the general forum, or ask elsewhere.

anyhow, on the question of who's a freelancer using cinema (which i think is perfectly pertinent to here), then I freelance using cinema.

LucentDreams

08-12-2003, 08:25 AM

sorry if my post came off a little different then intended, while honestly I have complained lately about some of the RTFM or do a search kind of questions, I meant my comment a little differently in regards to this question. I dont' see the importance of what studio or individual is using it, and such, I mean it seriously shouldn't impact his final decision on a software package or anything should it. Seriously I"m using mStudio max on a daily basis right now, and the more I use it the more comfortable I am with it, (don't worry I'm not jumping ship) But seriously, between using max all the time now, and learning rigging in maya not too long back, I'm really more then ever wondering why decisions are based on whose using what and to do what. The mainstream apps are all pretty equal in majority of capabilities and in the areas where the biggest differences lie, are the feature which are still not used under everyday needs of the average (not average) user.

We are really at a point I feel with 3D apps, whaere one should chose an app based on things like (in order of my opinionative importance) A)price (lets be honest, don't consider XSI if you don't have 6k to buy it) B)workflow, and C)Support/user community

And A) is only infront of B) soley because of real life limits, truly B is the biggy if you have the money to squander, I mean why get maya, if LW works better for you, why get max if C4D works better for you.

And as a someone looking at freelance, last consideration should be are other people succeding with this specific software, and more on what do I need to do to succeed. For example, myself, At the moment I seem to be succeeding (well at least financially) with my freelancing, not because of what software I use (heck I currently only teach cinema at one school locally) But because of A)The way I work, B)the quality of my product, and C)I do what it takes to succeed, even if it means sitting down with an app I've loathed for years, and really getting dep into it so I can better serve my clientel and expand my opportunities. AS soon as you get into freelancing, your not only an artist but a businessman as well great artskills alone won't save you as a freelancer, good marketing and management are needed too. Oh and a patience for doing invoices (nothings worse then sitting down and writing invoices all evening)

kromekat

08-12-2003, 10:26 AM

(nothings worse then sitting down and writing invoices all evening)

That's not strictly true! - chasing late/unpaid invoices has to be one of the most irritating parts of freelancing IMO. :)

LucentDreams

08-12-2003, 11:53 AM

Originally posted by kromekat
That's not strictly true! - chasing late/unpaid invoices has to be one of the most irritating parts of freelancing IMO. :)

True, had a big problem with that right before siggraph, needed to get paid fast so I could pay for the plane ticket, but an invoice "disappeared" according to the client, they were way behond on the payment too, they'd had the invoice for 3 months.

Could we just say anything releated to invoices (besides the fact that it pays you) is a nuissance?

kromekat

08-12-2003, 12:13 PM

Could we just say anything releated to invoices (besides the fact that it pays you) is a nuissance?

Yeah, I'll buy that...

...then there are tax returns... :rolleyes:

JoelOtron

08-12-2003, 02:05 PM

Originally posted by Kaiskai
Oh and a patience for doing invoices (nothings worse then sitting down and writing invoices all evening)

Man have you got your priorities backwards! :)

When I'm busy though, sometimes I forget to write up my invoices right away. My wife usually has to start waving our checkbook and bills in my face to get me back with the program.

ODoul

08-12-2003, 02:06 PM

Thank you kia and sadie, I'll keep that in mind. -- 3d_e

danb

08-12-2003, 02:47 PM

Ok i am starting to feel a cold shoulder from some of the people from this forum. Obviously people can tell from the posts that a person is a novice or FREQUENTER of the board. I keep coming to the board because i know that alot of veterans here are knowledgable and untill now very eager to inform. My questions were very application specific and i was looking for feedback that i couldn't and DID not find on the internet. I DID run searches using google and of course i came up with the same answers from maxon's site as people have posted but how can one trust the company. You know how do i know that it is not just advertising. I ran similar searches on other software like maya and lightwave and those companies have said similar things. I came here with the questions to get real answers from real people from the company. Which is very difficult to find from other people using "HIGHEND" software.

Some have written that this forum is for questions about help in cinema. That seems valid but what about the thread about the cinema4d apparel? I was looking at that one and noone scorned the starter of that thread, when easily that person could have written or called maxon for that info.

I also COMPLETELY understand its not which 3d program one uses its how talented the artist using it is. I use to have rayderam studio and i could make more appealing things in that than when i used maya for a short time. The reason i asked if people were successful freelancers was more of a NETWORKING question. i wanted to know who on the board i could relate to. I know some use it just for hobby. Maybe SUCCESSFULL is the wrong choice of words. I meant SUCCESSFULL more like ACCOMPLISHED. I like using cinema4d for the exact same reasons kaiskai listed; 1.)PRICE/PERFORMANCE RATIO. 2.)COMMUNITY ATMOSPHERE AND SUPPORT.

I mean really, I worked two jobs for two years just to buy 3dmax and when i used the demo version of cinema i instantly ditched max. Why would one do that? I did it because of performance not title or reputation. I did it because i sensed that i could get the most for my money and as a senior in college, money is always a big issue.

So i started this thread in some hope to gain some confidence from the replies of the SUCCESSFULL cinema artists of the forum. I feel like there is no other place where this question could be asked. The answers would just not hold as much merit. I am sorry if i did not make myself clear and i ask for a little patience for us NEWBIES. Thanks.

kromekat

08-12-2003, 03:04 PM

kromekat

08-12-2003, 03:05 PM

I don't know which post you are referring to specifically, but I understood you completely danb - it was a professional, topical question, and warranted a polite answer, which hopefully you got on the most part!?

I do get the impression after only having been here a short time myself, that some members here are a little too full of self importance, and so jam packed with higher end knowledge, that they forget how to communicate with newbies, or worse still, feel it innapropriate to stoop down.

Anyway, try to ignore it, it's not what most people here are about! :)

Iggy

08-12-2003, 03:17 PM

I'll have to agree with Dan that this topic took a strange twist. Although his question wasn't as clear as it could have been, the intent seemed plainly to inquire as to how well freelancers are doing with C4D, what they are doing and as he said, to facilitate networking. I think it's a completely valid question for the C4D forum, just as my question on what CG mags you read was appropriate, since I was interested specifically in what CG mags Cinema 4D users read. The brothers (and sisters) have to stand together, right? Especially freelancers. I am also very interested in this topic, being a newb with C4D, but aspiring to be a freelancer in a few years.

Seems like the part that caused the friction was the part of the question where he asked what C4D is used for by the studios and who is using it. While these questions do seem to come up a lot in the context of trying to pick what app to learn, mostly from first time forum posters, this was clearly an attempt to find out where C4D fits in in the larger context. And I haven't been here long, but I've seen dan's posts for a while. I think that this is a question that a lot of us newbs share, just to be well-informed about the industry if nothing else. When I was looking at apps, I looked at demos for max, LW, Maya, and C4D, and there was no contest. I picked C4D because I like it the best for what I'm doing. I won't change because what a big studio uses. But I am curious to know what sorts of jobs C4D freelancers are getting, so I can think ahead to when I'll be there (fingers crossed) and what sort of things studios are using it for. Not that it will limit me, but you've got to be ready.

So brothers and sisters let's get together. Half the reason that this forum is so cool is because we're all so devoted to C4D no matter what. The more areas that we can unite and share the better. This has been a great thread for me to see what's out there. Let's keep it up.

Iggy

Martin Kay

08-12-2003, 03:29 PM

Hmm, perhaps I don't belong here... In no way am I elitist, whatever that means. I judge who's who, by the quality of their work!!!!. generally speaking the better an artists work the more approachable they are.... These people who seem to be so far up their own backsides are possibly better avoided. I'd say to any novice to ask away and to ignore these tetchy snots who probably have nothing useful to tell you anyway.
A perfectly reasonable question- 'How many freelances are there here?' I used c4d as a freelance and as an employed individual since the app appeared as Vs 5XL. Very useful it was too, mainly because of my connection with the exhibition trade and the ability with cinema to render out huge files quickly. The ease of use and shallow learning curve meant I was up and working with it within a week of getting it. Not bad.

LucentDreams

08-12-2003, 03:36 PM

Read my posts again, no where in this thread did I say a search should have been done. I did say in my fisrt post that the question does come up a lot (never said you should have done a search) my ONLY point was that I don't see the purpose of the question.

So what if It was used by the orphanage, or ILM, so what if most people use it for broadcast instead of games, can game art still be done with C4D, YES. Was C4D used in Harry Potter 2 because ofthe app itself, NO, it was used because Simon Wicker Uses C4D to do his work. He is what the studio invested in not C4D.

As for the cold shoulder, I made one little comment, but answered your question and pretty well imo so don't know why all the fuss.

kromekat

08-12-2003, 03:38 PM

ignore these tetchy snots

LMAO! - only a fellow brit could say that! - sorry, made me larf out loud that one! :D
:applause:

Martin Kay

08-12-2003, 03:40 PM

As a postscript, I would say that in many cases c4d is ideal for a freelance especially if he/she is producing the finished product and doesn't have to fit in with another pipeline. Its an ideal adjunct to Photoshop or illustrator, as it doesn't take an age to learn and has most features for the buck of any app I know off.
You don't need specialist rendering equipment either to get a decent file size for print work. I'm really talking about illustrators here, if I was currently a freelance doing 3D, maybe my choice would be different- I might go for either Max or Maya, if I needed to fit in with other studios. If I was producing totally the end product I see nothing wrong with c4d. c4d's profile is continually being raised as the months go by. Its not impossible that c4d might steal the crown from max eventually as the most used app.

Martin Kay

08-12-2003, 03:44 PM

Oh dear oh dear, I'm in fear of now asking a question in case someone doesn't see the purpose of asking that question....
Come on Kai, we're not all 'experts'. Thats what a forum is for?

astrofish

08-12-2003, 05:32 PM

It's very easy to get subtle misunderstandings about people's meanings when reading posts, and I think that's what has happened here.

Despite this, I think that this has been an interesting thread, and I don't believe that anybody was out to criticise anyone else.

In my experience, CGTalk is one of the best and friendliest forums out there.

Cheers - Steve

AdamT

08-12-2003, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by astrofish
It's very easy to get subtle misunderstandings about people's meanings when reading posts, and I think that's what has happened here.

Despite this, I think that this has been an interesting thread, and I don't believe that anybody was out to criticise anyone else.

In my experience, CGTalk is one of the best and friendliest forums out there.

Cheers - Steve
I agree. Sometimes one posts a response without thinking about exactly how it may sound coming from a cold computer screen, particularly if one is very busy. It can also be annoying when you see the same question come up for the 20th time, or when a question is clearly in RTFM land, although neither of these apply in this case IMO.

For the record, I freelance using Cinema, mostly doing architectural renderings, but also some illustration. Considering a major marketing push to get some trial exhibit work, but first need to beef up my portfolio in this area.

flyingP

08-12-2003, 06:28 PM

Struth what hapened to this thread? go away for a while and all hell breaks loose.

Just a thought danb,
it would interest me to know out of curiosity just what sort of work were 'you' hoping to use cinema as a freelance artist for?
Would seem to be that most of us here seem to be using it as extra tool, and not the only tool (I could be wrong though).

Hate writing out invoices too.

MJV

08-12-2003, 07:46 PM

AdamT

08-12-2003, 08:03 PM

Originally posted by flyingP
Hate writing out invoices too.
You guys don't know how good you have it! Try practicing law and keeping track of every 6 minutes of every day! .1 hrs.: look out window; .2 hrs. draft motion to dismiss; 2.4 hrs. CGTalk. :)

danb

08-12-2003, 09:59 PM

Originally posted by flyingP

Just a thought danb,
it would interest me to know out of curiosity just what sort of work were 'you' hoping to use cinema as a freelance artist for?
Would seem to be that most of us here seem to be using it as extra tool, and not the only tool (I could be wrong though).

Hate writing out invoices too.

flyingp specifically i was hoping to use it in as many areas as possible. I would like to do some work in previz, architectural, flying logo, character animation, post effects, maybe some if possible teaching. there is a highschool that my aunt works at teaching beginner 3d modelling and animation. sometimes she needs help. I am going to use Cinema as my primary and only tool untill i can produce more capital and then see what develops in the character animation realm. Character Animation has been a dream of mine since the early days of TRON and such. I know TRON did not have much in character animation but it sent my imagination soaring. I believe Cinema is capable of accomplishing an excellent range of uses and that is why i have chosen to use it as my primary tool. Does this seem feasable to anyone.

kromekat

08-12-2003, 10:03 PM

I believe Cinema is capable of accomplishing an excellent range of uses and that is why i have chosen to use it as my primary tool. Does this seem feasable to anyone.

Of course!

I dont think Cinema lacks anything of importance that wont be addressed in a future update or plugin, its extremely powerful, intuitive, fast and friendly!

flyingP

08-12-2003, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by danb
flyingp specifically i was hoping to use it in as many areas as possible. I would like to do some work in previz, architectural, flying logo, character animation, post effects, maybe some if possible teaching. there is a highschool that my aunt works at teaching beginner 3d modelling and animation. sometimes she needs help. I am going to use Cinema as my primary and only tool untill i can produce more capital and then see what develops in the character animation realm. Character Animation has been a dream of mine since the early days of TRON and such. I know TRON did not have much in character animation but it sent my imagination soaring. I believe Cinema is capable of accomplishing an excellent range of uses and that is why i have chosen to use it as my primary tool. Does this seem feasable to anyone.

Yeah Character annimaion gets my blood going as well, always seemed to me like a logical step from illustrating, I've spent years drawing figures now I'd love to make them move. But there is also my problem at the moment I use Cinema in those areas where I am already working in (not exactly where I would like to) when it's needed, getting other work in other areas will require building up a portfolio, and getting contacts with possible clients (actually first finding out who the hell they are) and really finding out what their needs are i.e. doing a bit of research (and at the moment I am still building up my skills with cinema as well).
Thing is you have a product/service to sell, helps to know who you are selling too and if the really want it (and if they are willing to pay for it). This really something each of us has to do, it's not easy and takes time to build up a reputation, and actually you'll find a good reputation will bring you further than which software application you are using.
Apart from that and listening to what the others have been writing here, you should well be able to do those things you listed with Cinema,
I hope it works out for you at any rate, and I certainly wish you luck.

Cheers

danb

08-12-2003, 11:21 PM

Thanks flyingp for the confidence booster. this thread has turned out better than it began, that's for sure. a lot of constructive criticism from both good and bad perspectives. i have definately learned some valuable lessons with these innocent questions. I would like to say sorry to anyone i have offended and thanks to everyone for their opinions. some very useful stuff said.

wesware

08-13-2003, 01:11 AM

FlyingP.... I get the feeling that you and are have had similiar experiences. Not sure of your timeline but I've been illustrating for about 8 years and 3d for 3 years. A lot of what you say in this forum rings true.

Iggy

08-13-2003, 02:57 AM

Right now I'm working as an engineer, but with a growing emphasis on video and 3d animations. In a few years time I hope to be freelancing in industrial/medical animations. JoelD, your experience sounds very interesting and I would love to hear more about what you do. Anyone else have any experience with industrial animation? My take on it is that there's a lot of work with medical, but less with more general industrial, though I think that it is growing. However, I have very little contact in the field, I'm just guessing based on what I encounter as an engineer. I hope to use my technical background to inspire folks to let me model and animate their machines or innovative medical devices. Does that sound realistic?

This has been a very informative thread. CGTalk just rocks! :buttrock: I've never enjoyed a forum so much. :beer:

AdamT

08-13-2003, 04:22 AM

One avenue you might look at is patent applications. One of the big intellectual property law firms down here even has a full-time guy in-house who does illustrations and animations for applications and infringement suits.

Iggy

08-13-2003, 04:39 AM

That's a good thought Adam. One of my partners in crime down here (well, up here from you), has suggested that I work on inventors trying to explain their ideas to venture capitalists or whoever has the dough. That could be plausible as well. I'm really much more interested in animation than I am in stills, though I readily acknowledge that once you get freelancing you generally take what's there.

flyingP

08-13-2003, 07:03 AM

Originally posted by wesware
FlyingP.... I get the feeling that you and are have had similiar experiences. Not sure of your timeline but I've been illustrating for about 8 years and 3d for 3 years. A lot of what you say in this forum rings true.

Funny I have been getting the same impression with some of the stuff you have written in the past Wesware, as to my time line I have been freelanceing here in Germany for the last 10 years or so now as an Illustrator, although specialising more with storyboards and layout illustrations for the advertising agencies here, was a fun start too as I am not German and it took a while to learn the language, before that I was working at one of the TV stations in New Zealand, go back a bit further and it's a mixture of travel, unemployment, a stint as an Artdirector, and a job with a Screen printing (T-shirts) company, now there was a "fun" job (heavy on the sarcasm).

Liked your website by the way.

Cheers.