HMC #22: Classic Self-Portrait Bobby Clayton

[quasiagent1]

http://www.claytoncreations.org/Spheres.jpg


This will be my first time working strictly in zBrush, using zSpheres as the basis for the sculpt. I'm used to starting in Maya, so this is certainly a new, interesting experience. I'm usually not a fan of experimenting with new techniques in a challenge, but this seemed like a safe/good choice for this one. I did alter the pose somewhat to more suit what I envisioned, and will likely continue to tweak that somewhat.

[picture deleted]


Here are a few orthos I'll be working with when it comes time for the face. Not the greatest of pictures, but they'll do.

[RageOfAges]

Your references and your model look nothing alike.

Hehe. You know I'm just pulling your leg. I like the silhouette and form of your zsphere pose. Looking forward to watching you work on this. I'll be harassing you quite a bit, no doubt, as this develops. I prety much grew up on a horse`s back so know quite a lot about them. It's difficult not to critique when things are out of place.

-Cheers.

-Rage

[Intervain]

sure looks like a good start - a nice choice of a sculpture and I like the refs for the head - you got the angle nicely... looking forward to more.

[quasiagent1]

Thanks y'all for the feedback. Unfortunately, shortly after I started working on the mesh proper, zBrush crashed on me... and it turns out my last save was BEFORE I even posed the zspheres... so I'll be reworking that tonight.

Seems this challenge is the challenge for zbrush crashes :/

[WyattHarris]

Seems this challenge is the challenge for zbrush crashes :/
Always is. :D Good luck.

[Nothingness]

Just a little thought, but wouldn't it be better to have to two characters as different meshes?
Could make it more easy to work on in my opinion.

And about the zbrush crashes: i always thought the mac version was more crappy. Seems like it's the other way around.

[quasiagent1]

Actually, yes, having a separate mesh for each figure would be ideal. Unfortunately, I'm completely self-taught in Zbrush and have to pick up things as I go... and multiple meshes in Zbrush hasn't been one of them. I assume it's not that complicated, but... heh, outside of my current knowledge base at the moment :shrug:

[RageOfAges]

Without subtool master installed:

1-load 2 tools into zbrush
2-select one of the tools
3-go to subtool palet.
4-add subtool.
5-select the 2nd tool u loaded.

That it. It's that easy. If that sounded confusing, then really what you're doing is loading 2 tools, then applying one as a subtool to another.

WITH subtool master:

1-load a tool into zbrush
2-plugins-subtool master-load
3-select as many tools as you like

Even easier.

Please note that the word "tool" can be replaced by ".obj" everywhere in this post.

-If you're anything like me, you're leery about new things that you don't understand, and probably assume these new things are way more complicated than they really are. Once I started using subtools, I honestly felt like I had a brand new cadilac, where as before I was trucking around in my radioflyer. Do yourself a favor and use subtools.

*shesh I sound like a spokesman for subtools.

-Rage

[quasiagent1]

Actually, that sounds really simple indeed. Ironically, I already have subtool master installed, as I use that to save all my work (I was told it was a more reliable means for saving things). Anyway, as I'm still early in the process, so I'll try incorporating this whole "subtool" thing.

One question though... if they are separate subtools, will I be able to merge them into one later on?

[Nothingness]

I think you can make one big mesh of all subtools, but i doubt that you can make them also connected like one big connected mesh.

Maybe you can combine them, and do a retopo to combine them (i haven't tried this) but that could get you some serious issues.

[quasiagent1]

Hmm, well, I'd like to avoid those complications then. My biggest concern is that having the two meshes be separate will break the "chiseled from one piece of marble" feel it should have.

Either way, time to get back to it tonight!... once I'm finally free of work anyway :scream:

[RageOfAges]

Ryan Kingslien has a great zbrush architecture dvd where he blends 2 different cube primitive into one solid piece of concrete, and there's no way you can tell that they are actually 2 pieces to the model. I haven't tried the technique, but essentially he just brushes one end until it merges well with the other. As far as I could tell, there was no secret. Just attention to detail.

-Rage

[quasiagent1]

Okay, here is the start of the centaur sculpt. It's still really rough, but I'm at least getting the major muscles blocked out. Let me know what y'all think thusfar!

http://www.claytoncreations.org/First.JPG

[TiMrozek]

Good start. I realize it's not finished so I don't want to really comment much. Only thing I'd say is be aware of the wrists and the hand. Right now your hand sort of comes out like a V from the wrist. When looking at a hand, if one side is coming out at that angle then the other side is probably creating a parallel line with the forearm. I know you are still blocking it in, just figured I'd mention it just in case. Also, I think the wrist is just pretty thin right now. Still, good luck with the rest.

[quasiagent1]

Yeah... the hands will definitely require a lot more work. I really wasn't happy with how they started out after I converted from zspheres to the workable mesh and have left them as giant meat-mitts for now.

Unfortunately, the closeness of the hand to the body is making manipulating the hand by itself a challenge... and masking doesn't really help, for the same reason. Oh well, this wouldn't be a challenge if it was easy I suppose :hmm:

[TiMrozek]

If you are having trouble individually selecting that hand I would recommend dropping all the way down in resolution and transposing (rotating) the arm from the elbow just enough to give you ease in masking it to work solely on it. Easiest way to make teh selection to rotate that would just be switching to move or rotate (doesn't matter which) and just ctrl clicking on the model just above that elbow and dragging towards the hand just a tiny bit. You will see that it masks everything behind the selection and extends the mask as you drag. It's a good way to move stuff that around that has gotten too close to, or intersected, other geometry. Anyway, maybe you already tried this and found it to not work too well but to me it seems like this should work, then you can easily rotate that arm back to the right postion after you are done sculpting it. Just always transpose at a lower level than divide back up afterwards. Hope that helps.

[Intervain]

well, judging by how you've built it it should be pretty easy to mask with a topology mask and manipulate at will... you can always use the mask to hid the rest of the model and work on the visible part [the hand]...should be a problem with a z-sphere based model

[quasiagent1]

Heh, herein lies another blindspot of being self-taught in Zbrush... I'd never even HEARD of the topological masking technique, and only knew of the "paint the mask on" method. I'll definitely have to try this tonight. Thanks guys for the info and suggestions!

[TiMrozek]

I'm self taught too, just go to pixologic's site and go through all their classroom vids. Meats Meier also did some pretty good tutorials http://www.vimeo.com/2475092 . I just tortured myself and sat through a lot of videos, some that seemed to be obvious or repetitive to others i'd seen. But I find doing this early on can really help just because you will pick up little things here and there that you might not see by just watching one series of vids. There is still a ton I probably don't know.

[Intervain]

yes just use the M, R, E [move, rotate, scale] with the transpose tool to create a topology mask - it'll make your life a whole lot easier :)

[quasiagent1]

Well, here's a mini-update. Just worked on posing the hands a bit better, and tweaked a few details. I have to say though, the topological mapping is VERY handy. If nothing else, that was a good technique to learn along the way :P

http://www.claytoncreations.org/Update1.JPG

[zszs]

good job so far:bounce:

[quasiagent1]

Just a little bit of detail work on the hand.

http://www.claytoncreations.org/Hand.JPG


More to come shortly!

[quasiagent1]

Hmmm... I appear to have run into a slight problem. It's not catastrophic, but since I've never used zspheres before, I don't know how to handle this.

It appears that, for some reason, posing with zspheres has left a seam of sorts in certain places. The front legs and hands are both very noticeable.

http://www.claytoncreations.org/seams.JPG

Can anyone tell me why this might be there and how I can go about removing them? Thanks!

[TiMrozek]

Could you upload the same shot at lower resolution with wireframe turned on? Also, what happens when you just smooth that section? I'm guessing nothing?

[quasiagent1]

Using things like the smooth and flatten tool, I can get the seam to be a little bit lower profile (you and actually see an instance of that across the hand in the previous update, very subtle). The problem is, the moment I start to add detail/muscle/etc, that seam pops out. From my own glance at the wire frame, I'm guessing I did something wrong during the zspheres step... just hoping it's fixable.

http://www.claytoncreations.org/seams2.JPG

[TiMrozek]

Oh my, I've used Z-spheres a bit but I haven't seen that. It kind of looks like you somehow have overlapping geometry or something there. I have noticed the patchwork that z-spheres creates but it seems like that only becomes an issue if you just export it as is, as an obj. Then it will open in maya or whatever you use as multiple pieces. Hmm, any zbrush experts know more about this than I do? Sorry but I'm not really sure what the deal is here. I haven't been using the software long enough I fear.

[zszs]

Unfortunately, there are indeed some overlap geometry.TiMrozek is right.The use of zspheres does require attention to its bifurcation.

[quasiagent1]

Okay, so... how do I fix that? How do I avoid that in the future? I'm REALLY hoping this doesn't mean a restart...

[TiMrozek]

I have to be honest, I don't really know how to fix this. Maybe you can export the lowest level mesh out as an obj. to get a better look at what's really going on in whatever 3D app you use. Maybe post this issue to zbrushcentral or the zbrush forum on this site. Or hopefully someone else here can tell you what to do. Good luck. I don't think this means a restart though, there has to be some way to fix this or, at the very least, hide it.

[quasiagent1]

From what I can tell from the import into Maya, the quiltwork comes from the overlapping spheres created for the base from each leg. Thing is, it's not where those areas overlap that's the issue, it's all along the seam between the main body and the two legs.

The obj export does have the main body separate from the legs. In addition, each finger is a separate object. What that means, I have no idea... meh. I guess I'll just work elsewhere on the model for now.

[RubberEggs]

I have had this happen many times. There are two ways you take care of it, the first usually works and is pretty easy , the second is a little more involved , but it works really well.
The first , go from highest Sud-d to lowest Sud-D smoothing the distortions at every division. if that does not work try this.. as i said it is more involved so I'll post a pic...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3507/4028471455_08fc069be9_o.jpg


. I hope that makes sense, hit me up if it needs clarification.

also , if you are exporting your mesh to .obj your polygroups will be exported as single elements , so you can either clear your polygroups before exporting or weld the mesh back together in maya.. if you weld your mesh however you will change the order of your verts and you will lose your sub-d detail if you are going to reimport to zbrush

[quasiagent1]

Whew! The first method definitely won't work, as the seam gets even more distorted at a low poly level. I'll have to try technique number two when I get home tonight. Thanks for that!

Edit: I am a little confused by what is happening in the steps "add all the missing faces you deleted" and "rebuild the LP Topology." What will I be doing there? I'm not that familiar (read: at all) with projection, so that's probably my disconnect.

[Alanise]

I am also new to zbrush and found this to happen for me and how I fixed it was that method 1 mentioned. I found if you go to the lowest subdivision and inflat the area then smooth and then one up and inflat smooth and back and forth between subdivision the trick is to slowly work it out from lowest subdivision and up.

[RubberEggs]

Here is a better (I hope) explanation of the process.http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2632/4031353874_ce8657dfcb_o.jpg
. so to recap .

1. Clone the mesh twice
2. a.First mesh. Go to the lowest Sub-D and Delete higher(renamed mesh with -LP).
2. b.Second mesh. Go to the highest Sub-D and Delete lower(rename mesh with -HP).
3. Hide problematic geometry on mesh-LP and Delete hidden.
4. Select ZSphere > Rigging > Select Mesh > mesh-HP.
5. Select Zsphere > Topology > Select Topo > mesh-LP.
6. Select Zsphere > Topology > Edit Topology.
7. Rebuild the topology.
8. Projection is turned on and an adaptive skin is made (making sure to have a high enough density to capture the projected detail)
9. When you are happy with your settings , click 'make adaptive skin'
10. you now have a new mesh with a correct topology and all the original details.
11. Smooth out the distortions that were projected and then re sculpt the detail.

I hope that makes sense. and i believe the reason you mesh did what it did is as follows.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2473/4030648663_ce9051a840_o.jpg

[WyattHarris]

I hope I have understood your problem correctly. You have 2 base meshes from Maya that you are combining in ZBrush right? At first I thought you just had some smoothing errors that occur every time you transpose the mesh. Then I saw your wireframe.

When using 2 separate meshes like that it is very difficult to get them to match up as you subdivide. All the old tutorials that apply to this appear to have disappeared but you are looking for the ZProject brush.

1. Load the first mesh into ZB save as ZTool.
2. Load the second mesh and append it to the first as a subtool.
3. Using the ZProject brush, draw over the one that needs to change and it should morph to the shape of the other.

I can't remember but the one that will be zprojected may have to be the subtool. This method is not very easy because every time you subdivide you will have to re-zproject and you can't sculpt from one mesh to the other smoothly. This is why separate meshes like heads, arms etc. are hidden underneath clothing so you won't see the seam between them. Skin on skin is tough.

[Intervain]

a fast way would be just to take the mesh at low level to your 3d editing software and change the topology in the spot you're having trouble with and then import that to zbrush and project your details onto the new mesh [if you're working in zb 3.5r2 just import it on top of the old one] it should be fast and painless :)

[quasiagent1]

@WyattHarris - Actually, the whole thing was created in zBrush, using zspheres. Once I take the model into Maya, that seam is where the poly groups are split (between the main body and the legs).

@Intervain - My biggest problem with that potential fix is that I have NO idea what needs to be changed topology-wise in Maya... I can post a screenshot later of what it looks like there, but there don't appear to be any extra faces/edges/etc... just a lot of overlapping ones.

I'm just hoping that RubberEgg's fix is as easy as it sounds, as I can't worry this point for too long... finish line is rapidly approaching with too much left to do. :eek:

[quasiagent1]

Okay, so... update time. I was unable to find a workable fix for the seem issue. I'm just not familiar enough with zbrush yet I guess. That said, thanks everyone for their suggestion/hints/pointers. I DO see what caused the issue in the first place, so I should know better how to handle the issue in the future.

For the purpose of this challenge, I'm going to just do my best to work around the issue. As you can see in the image below, the seem is not THAT noticeable from a distance. I may also be able to hide a lot of it with repeated smoothing/flattenings of the area.

http://www.claytoncreations.org/BodyUpdate.JPG


I have also started work on the actual self-portrait part of this piece. Still lots of work to be done there... and STILL have to start work on the cherub... and STILL have lots of work left to do on the main body... SERIOUS crunch time now :S

http://www.claytoncreations.org/HeadUpdate.JPG

[quasiagent1]

Here's a further, detailed update, as well as an overview of where I am thusfar. Still a lot to do, but I have set aside all day today to work on this. <fingers crossed>

http://www.claytoncreations.org/LatestLower.JPG

http://www.claytoncreations.org/Overview.JPG


There is obviously still a lot of detail work to finish up, the expression isn't even remotely finalized, and that dang cherub is still missing. :argh:

[Nothingness]

I hope you can finish this one.
Maybe work on the missing things then putting too much time in details :scream:

[quasiagent1]

Pretty much taking that exact route actually :)

I'm working on the cherub now, though I find it's a tad more creepy than angelic at the moment. Still lots of details to work out, and not 100% sure how I'll be tackling the wings. Still... progress is progress.

http://www.claytoncreations.org/Cherub.JPG

[quasiagent1]

As is probably clear at this point, I was not able to submit the finished product in time. Just wanted to drop a line to anyone that was curious. Zbrush crashed in the middle of last weekend after I'd put a great deal of work into finishing up.

I WILL be finishing it, but knew I'd never have the time to redo everything I needed to in time for this. Thanks all for the feedback along the way.

[quasiagent1]

Well, I know it has been quite some time, but I thought I would pop in and show y'all what I ended up finishing up with. Hardly a self-portrait anymore, but I was pretty pleased with the results.

Link to turntable: http://www.vimeo.com/12533426

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1303/4697126110_46f9f5ae1d_b.jpg

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