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Aevium Viemme
08-11-2003, 02:22 AM
I've always run into this dilemma while talking to other CG people. I'm really a middle-ground, I've been using computers as much as I've been an artist, so it's really hard to classify me, but most other artists I know are either artists who are computer-savvy or nerds with an artistic spark.

What do you think?

erilaz
08-11-2003, 02:29 AM
"Computer Geeks" and Artists are both creative. I always use the example of John Romero and John Carmack of ID. Romero is an artist of design. He pulls together great creatures and levels while making the tools to do the job. Carmack is a programming artist. He can come up with creative ways of handling graphics that is outside the realm of what most programmers can think of. They're both creative geniuses, and in my opinon, both artists, regardless of the fact that Romero is a gaming super-freak and Carmack is a programming zealot.

So just tell 'em you're an artist and be done with it.:D

Hookflash
08-11-2003, 02:59 AM
From what I've seen, the most talented CG people are the ones who are artists first and computer enthusiasts second. For example, the ones who are able to draw and/or paint well are usually able to transfer their artistic abilities to a computer screen as well. Pure geeks, on the other hand, learn the app very quickly, but never really create anything with high artistic value. Imho, of coarse;).

Icarus
08-11-2003, 03:44 AM
i really dislike the generalised status of being called a "nerd"

Everything has a name, why cant people just use it, unsted of making it sound like a 3rd class use, they are all generalised, and it shits me, but... "artists" have their place, Yes, but sadly enough these days, its becoming the state of "You Use a Computer?... NERD", well well well. As the use of CG is more widly used in todays society,

meh, i imagine that you understand my frustration in this subject,

but i agree with what has been said so far....

TyR-

Aevium Viemme
08-11-2003, 03:54 AM
Well, a geek and a nerd are two different things :P. A nerd is someone who's really into computers and has an affection for some sort of sci-fi and/or Linux. A geek is usually a Windows guy who likes computers but isn't too proficient with the hardware side of them. At a party, the geek would be more likely to talk to other people and have fun while the nerd would be sitting home and bitching and whining about people rejecting him :D.

And I share the exact same feeling, just recently I wrote in my articles "seems like everyone who wears glasses and knows how to use a computer is considered a NERD." It pisses me off because people who call me a NERD really don't understand that I'm not a childish guy who likes sci-fi (I hate SW/ST/B5) and Linux and cares about system specs and is on IM all day. I'm not saying I'm a superstar, but by far I'm not a nerd, I'm rather a geek with a more or less LIFE :D.

People who call others a nerd/geek and don't use a computer should be taken with an intravenous dose of salt. Mainstream people have absolutely no clue as to the workings of digital society.

Wigaru Wiyamoto
08-11-2003, 03:55 AM
Well it depends on what position you're talking about. Someone whose working with particles or writing MEL scripts or plug-ins is gonna be different from a modeler or texture artist.

I imagine a lot of CG artists grew up with both computers and drawing. For a lot of people it's a double bonus to combine art and computers.

There aren't a whole lot of pure artists who get into CG, and those who do have to tackle a huge learning curve to grapple with the software. There are however TONS of non-artistic people who try to get into CG and quickly find out their lack of artistic talent is a huge barrier to success.

And Tyrinid, get some geek/nerd pride!

Wigaru Wiyamoto
08-11-2003, 04:02 AM
I don't think many people share your definition of geek/nerd, especially not such a specific one. Why does ThinkGeek.com seems to cater just as well to nerds, perhaps even more so to than your definition of geek. They're synonymous to me.

JDex
08-11-2003, 04:35 AM
I'm with Wigaru, I don't think your definition holds much merit, nerd/geek can be exchanged freely. Your definition means that many of the "nerds" in Revenge of the Nerds are not actually "nerds", they are clearly "geeks" therefore proving that hollywood is fallible, and destroying the world and all of humanity. Really though, spending so much energy disecting old put- downs and categorizing their particulars in order to hone a well thought out existence is no way to go through life... unless your a "dork". :D

JB
08-11-2003, 04:43 AM
Everyone knows that Nerds are between 5'2" and 5'9" and Geeks are 5'9" to 6'4". If any of these people have unkempt hair and messy closets they are artists.

gnarlycranium
08-11-2003, 04:44 AM
In order to be a CG artist that's any good, you MUST be both a computer geek and an artist, in fairly equal amounts. That sort of person is a rare and bizarre breed. It's hard to say which comes first-- but I think in most cases, if a CG artist is GOOD... then they're an artist with a geek streak. On the other hand, a programmer that understands the CG programs, and can toy with occasional images with them, is a nerd with a creative side... and that's just how they naturally fall into place.

I think a lot of artists around here would not necessarily consider themselves computer geeks, but they'd be dead wrong-- if you know what a forum is, and can use the darn thing without getting terminally discouraged in 'what's this button do? what's a thread? where am I?' no-man's-land... you're a computer geek. Plain and simple, and fancy shmancy definitions aside. To say nothing about the freeeky and insanely complex programs we use.

Generally speaking, I agree with Wigaru-- there are a LOT of people who are truly just computer geeks that try to dabble in art, and can learn the programs, but can't really do much with it. I think they comprise most of the constant influx of vanishing noobs who come and go all the time. Those aren't nerds with creative sides... they're um.... well, they just don't count.

At siggraph I met a programming wizard who can't draw more than a stick figure to save his life, and yet who had the keenest artistic eye I've ever witnessed. I don't understand enough about programming to even comprehend anything he's done in his field, but I'm positive he must be a heck of an artist within it. Of course, that statement leads us down the 'well what's an artist anyway?' debate hall again, and erilaz sortof made this point once already... but there it is.

erilaz
08-11-2003, 04:47 AM
From www.dictionary.com :

"geeky adj.

Our Living Language Our word geek is now chiefly associated with student and computer slang; one probably thinks first of a computer geek. In origin, however, it is one of the words American English borrowed from the vocabulary of the circus, which was a much more significant source of entertainment in the United States in the 19th and early 20th century than it is now. Large numbers of traveling circuses left a cultural legacy in various and sometimes unexpected ways. For example, Superman and other comic book superheroes owe much of their look to circus acrobats, who were similarly costumed in capes and tights. The circus sideshow is the source of the word geek, “a performer who engaged in bizarre acts, such as biting the head off a live chicken.” We also owe the word ballyhoo to the circus; its ultimate origin is unknown, but in the late 1800s it referred to a flamboyant free musical performance conducted outside a circus with the goal of luring customers to buy tickets to the inside shows. Other words and expressions with circus origins include bandwagon (coined by P.T. Barnum in 1855) and Siamese twin."

and

"nerdy adj.

Word History: The word nerd, undefined but illustrated, first appeared in 1950 in Dr. Seuss's If I Ran the Zoo: “And then, just to show them, I'll sail to Ka-Troo And Bring Back an It-Kutch a Preep and a Proo A Nerkle a Nerd and a Seersucker, too!” (The nerd is a small humanoid creature looking comically angry, like a thin, cross Chester A. Arthur.) Nerd next appears, with a gloss, in the February 10, 1957, issue of the Glasgow, Scotland, Sunday Mail in a regular column entitled “ABC for SQUARES”: “Nerda square, any explanation needed?” Many of the terms defined in this “ABC” are unmistakable Americanisms, such as hep, ick, and jazzy, as is the gloss “square,” the current meaning of nerd. The third appearance of nerd in print is back in the United States in 1970 in Current Slang: “Nurd [sic], someone with objectionable habits or traits.... An uninteresting person, a ‘dud.’” Authorities disagree on whether the two nerdsDr. Seuss's small creature and the teenage slang term in the Glasgow Sunday Mailare the same word. Some experts claim there is no semantic connection and the identity of the words is fortuitous. Others maintain that Dr. Seuss is the true originator of nerd and that the word nerd (“comically unpleasant creature”) was picked up by the five- and six-year-olds of 1950 and passed on to their older siblings, who by 1957, as teenagers, had restricted and specified the meaning to the most comically obnoxious creature of their own class, a “square.”"

Just for your info...:D

Array
08-11-2003, 04:47 AM
ha, this same discussion came up on a synthesizer forum that i frequent. although there it was simply titled "are we nerds?"

???
08-11-2003, 04:47 AM
Spending 24hours/7 behind a computer because you love it / fan of it makes you be a nerd or a geek ?

markbones
08-11-2003, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by Gnarly Cranium
Generally speaking, I agree with Wigaru-- there are a LOT of people who are truly just computer geeks that try to dabble in art, and can learn the programs, but can't really do much with it. I think they comprise most of the constant influx of vanishing noobs who come and go all the time. Those aren't nerds with creative sides... they're um.... well, they just don't count.
Hm. Unfortunately, so far I seem to fall into that category.

What the heck kind of thread is this anyway?? :annoyed:

I think all the people out there who who have a computer sitting on a desk at home and don't know much more than how to press the power button are geeks. Does anyone stick something in the microwave and not know how to cook it? No - you learn. It takes quite a bit of effort to learn something new. I think accountants are nerds. Nothing is more boring than listening to 2 accountants talk about their work.:D

Seriously though, I am quite aware of the fact that I fall into the geek category, although no one would know it from my life away from the computer (yes, I have one). Besides, how many CGers love music and play some kind of instrument? It's our creative side that drives us, artists and programmers alike. I think we are the damn coolest people out there :buttrock:

(aside from the fact that we are nerds and geeks)

Aevium Viemme
08-11-2003, 05:11 AM
Originally posted by Max_Power
Everyone knows that Nerds are between 5'2" and 5'9" and Geeks are 5'9" to 6'4". If any of these people have unkempt hair and messy closets they are artists.

I'm 6'2", occasionally have my hair cut and laundry done every week :p. I'll be shallow and say that nerds care more about school/puters than geeks.

A geek, I think, is someone with a strong renaissance interest. CG people are geeks because they know CG. The only way people in the computer industry can't be geeks or nerds is if they didn't know anything and dropped ot of high school :scream:

Aevium Viemme
08-11-2003, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by ???
Spending 24hours/7 behind a computer because you love it / fan of it makes you be a nerd or a geek ?

N E R D :thumbsup:

erilaz
08-11-2003, 05:22 AM
"I may be a geek, but at least I've got a job.":p

Aevium Viemme
08-11-2003, 05:34 AM
Hehe that only further proves the point :D. Especially if it's a CG job. I have a design job soooo ;)

pencil-head
08-11-2003, 08:34 AM
actions speak louder than words.

if you create a picture or animation that blows me away, than your an artist. if you spend alot of time using the program and not creating anything good, your a nerd.

erilaz
08-11-2003, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by pencil_head
if you spend alot of time using the program and not creating anything good, your a nerd.

Or a Lab Teacher.:D (That's a poke, I'm not serious)

ndat
08-11-2003, 08:54 AM
Personally I really dont care what anyone says, I like to do what I do and if its geeky or nerdy so be it. I only do this because I love it, I may not be good at it, but I find it better than wasting my time at video games and tv.

gnarlycranium
08-11-2003, 08:59 AM
...When that programming wizard I mentioned told me I was the geekiest woman he'd ever met.... I said 'Thanks!!'... and meant it.

Honestly, why do 'nerd' and 'geek' have to be bad words? I'm probly both, by nearly any definition, and dang proud of it. :cool:

PHILL_JAMES2000
08-11-2003, 10:31 AM
shouldn't we first and foremost be artists and designers? CG stuff are tools with which we get the job done... :shrug:

cutepixie
08-11-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by Gnarly Cranium
...When that programming wizard I mentioned told me I was the geekiest woman he'd ever met.... I said 'Thanks!!'... and meant it.

Honestly, why do 'nerd' and 'geek' have to be bad words? I'm probly both, by nearly any definition, and dang proud of it. :cool:

hahaha i've been called and somewhat classified as a Nerd Chick ...all i can say is... YEAH BABY :cool: :thumbsup:

Agent D
08-11-2003, 11:38 AM
I don't mean to be rude, but that's not a good thread title or question.

What exactly do you mean? As we've seen, the term "nerd" and "geek" aren't defined in any universal way. Do you simply mean technical versus artistic? Personally I don't feel there's a huge difference, and they're certainly not mutually exclusive in any way.

theBIGmack60
03-24-2005, 01:47 AM
Its hard to say, but there are both of those people discribed. I think im a solid mix between the two, except on somedays im more then the other and visa versa.

The trick is to get those two people types working on the same project, THEN some serious stuff gets made :P

Im sure pixar is PACKED with the best of the best of the two types, and after seeing the Incredibles....I would say its working quite well, eh? :applause: :thumbsup:

floatingrunner
03-24-2005, 02:19 AM
this thought just came to me....and its like completely random without any deep thinking.
IMHO: it really depends on if you are doing CG using software or programming ;/

in the end. we're all the same... just passionate about different things.

Puck
03-24-2005, 02:56 AM
**
Besides, how many CGers love music and play some kind of instrument? It's our creative side that drives us, artists and programmers alike. I think we are the damn coolest people out there
**

too right Markbones, I've noticed that too. Every CG company should form a band from all the musicians sitting behind the computers.

When i exchanged my paintbrushes for a wacom and a "teach yourself 3dsmax" book, my partner (who is a practicing traditional artist) wouldn't let me call myself an "Artist" anymore. When we were introduced to people and they asked what i did, I'd say "I'm an artist", and she would say "Well, he works with computers". She was only teasing, but i think there is definately a social perception that the two fields cannot overlap. We all know better, considering all the inspiration we get from all the great CG artists out there. In the end, its all about the creation of something new that causes an emotional response in the audience. Monet and daVinci do it, but so does Pixar and Carmack.

Alexandrite
03-24-2005, 02:59 AM
As rare as it may have been in 1980s Russia, I've grown up around computers, my father is a computer programmer so we always had a home computer even then. One of my first words was "apple!" pointing to a Mac computer that my father brought home one day to fix for someone, lol. And yes I had meant the computer not the little apple logo. :) So I started messing around with early graphics programs at an early age, and i guess my artistic education developed side by side with my computer education.

But for a while, i actually did not see computer art as "real" art, until I started getting into it seriously. By that point i was getting more confident with real media and had decided that art was what I wanted to do in life, and since computers were always there as long as I can remember, i started experimenting a few years ago to see what i could do with computer art, and got hooked. Now i treat Photoshop as just another painting medium, like oil paints, except superior in one manner: it has the Almighty Undo Button!!! :)

Now I argue with people who automatically think "oh, photo manipulation" when I say "Photoshop". I have to grit my teeth and explain that yes, Photoshop can and IS used as a medium for original artworks, not just as a handy tool to remove red-eye effect from scanned photos! Digital art still has a way to go in being accepted by the general public as a legitimate art form, in my opinion. :(

But... art student, hopeful CG illustrator, computer geek, and girl. that's me. I still prefer to put the "art" first and the "geek" second, though. ;)

Wigaru Wiyamoto
03-24-2005, 06:50 AM
Yay for thread necromancy!

KayosIII
03-24-2005, 02:57 PM
Well, a geek and a nerd are two different things :P. A nerd is someone who's really into computers and has an affection for some sort of sci-fi and/or Linux. A geek is usually a Windows guy who likes computers but isn't too proficient with the hardware side of them. At a party, the geek would be more likely to talk to other people and have fun while the nerd would be sitting home and bitching and whining about people rejecting him :D.

What does that make me - I am into sci-fi and Linux.... But I also like to go out and have fun - in fact I have quite a reputation for it I tell people I am a Nerd but nobody believes me - god I am even into dungeons and dragons.... (going to catch the violent femmes this weeekend :bounce: :bounce: ).

Truth is I strive for a deeper understanding of all things I engage in... I have a short attention span so my works either appear quickly or not at all

Tocpe
03-24-2005, 03:45 PM
I'm a geek and proud of it. And if anyone thinks I'm less of a person because I'm not "normal"...well they can just take a flying phuck for all I care. lol. I got better things to worry about than what some shallow minded person thinks about me.



On the matter of the question of the thread. During the time I've been here I've seen a good bit of both. And I think it's pretty hard to quantify something like that. Just be, and let it be. :)

LunchBox
03-24-2005, 04:25 PM
I'm with Tocpe on this one, amen.

I simply can't imagine myself coming home plunging into the sofa instantly reaching for the remote and spending hours and hours in front of something dull like a television set.. computer graphics and technology in general is progressing so rapidly you just have to try keep up, and franctly i'm enjoying it every time i see some interesting new things.

I'm going with the filosophy: "so much to learn, so little time" - if they'd find some way you wouldn't have to spend 1/3rd of yr day sleeping i'd definatly be even more of a happy person. Anyway as a small recapitulation (hell i know expensive words) i don't mind at all what most non-computer-enthousiasts think of 'us' they don't know what they're missing.

just my 10-cents. *wink*

Craiger
03-24-2005, 05:58 PM
I think the whole idea of being a geek or nerd just because you are able to use a computer is rediculas. Wow,,, I can also use a calculator... Does that mean at some point people who could use calculators were nerds because that was CRAZY TECHNOLOGY at the time? how bout the days of the abicus? man... you push those sphrers... you NERD!!! ahahahahahah. Give me a break. Just because a person can learn what middle click means doesn't mean they're some sort of Nerd, Geek, whatever. Its too bad that the world evolves but perceptions don't.



werd.

DyslexicDan
04-05-2005, 11:58 PM
You can teach the artist about computers but you can’t teach the programmer art. Well that’s a fundamental idea but as with everything there are always exceptions.

ashakarc
04-06-2005, 01:55 AM
You can teach the artist about computers but you can’t teach the programmer art. Well that’s a fundamental idea but as with everything there are always exceptions.

That is not fair dude. If you can teach the artist programming, then you have a valid point. Programming and general computer knowledge are two different creatures.

best,
ashakarc

Tryn
04-06-2005, 02:31 AM
I'm a geek, and proud.

The definition me and my (geek) friends have come up with, is a geek is someone with vast supplies of knowledge about things that have next to no impact on daily life. Comics, star trek, how to drive software like maya, etc. A nerd is one whose geek knowledge dominates their life, to the detriment of social interaction. Not a perfect definition, but it works :)
3d folks are equal proportions geek and artist, IMO. Ive got vast supplies of knowledge that make most people go "whuh?", but I look at the world as an artist.

DyslexicDan
04-06-2005, 02:45 AM
I forget were I read that statement but the context was high level computer work that a computer nerd or a professional would do.

Basically it means. If you are a computer nerd with no artistic spark to begin with then you are not going learn to how to be artistic. If you are an artist then you could be taught to do computer work. Now if the artist can stand doing that computer work is something else.

Now like I said there are exceptions to the rule. There are many computer science professionals or computer nerds who have the artistic spark and there are artist who just can’t rap their minds around the structure of computing (be it programming or network administration). I my self is an exception to this rule. I am by profession a computer programmer but I’m vary artistic. It is those who can do both can do both that are preferred over those who can just do one, in industry at least. Though I will say that I was an artist before I became a computer programmer.

The truth in industry probably is that it is far easier to teach the art development staff to do the computer work then it is to teach the computer tech staff to draw pretty pictures.

Plus have ever tried to teach a computer nerd to draw? You can teach them all the art theories in the book but if they don’t have the initial talent then they’ll never really get it.

It was a lot easier to just say “You can teach the artist about computers but you can’t teach the programmer art. Well that’s a fundamental idea but as with everything there are always exceptions.’”

Kanga
04-06-2005, 04:06 AM
I think it doesn't really matter.

Except you have to love it ALOT or you are better off smoking banana peels.

Tryn
04-07-2005, 12:00 AM
I think it doesn't really matter.

Except you have to love it ALOT or you are better off smoking banana peels.

Well said, about sums it up I think :)

Nguyen
04-07-2005, 10:08 AM
what's the definition of a dork, then ...cause i think i fall into that category hehehe. At least that's what my girlfriend calls me. Do dorks have girlfriends? hmm...

Milho
04-07-2005, 06:50 PM
Well the problem is like stated somewhere above, that cg-art is often not as valuable as real art.
I think the reason might be that people often (miss)rate art by the time spend to create it. Let's say a guy painted small red dots on 200m² of white wall, and i create (though my HDD/Ram would not allow it) the same stuff with photoshop in 5 mins.

That sucks. I think people (who don't know cg at all) are not sure what is real art and what isnt mainly cause of apps like poser and other one-button-(not)art applications.

Example, if you show something like a great 3d render or digital painting the reactions are often, aha how did you do it. When you show them how complicated it is or that it is really hard work they say wow.

Still cg is often missjudged. Often i hear comments on pixar like "Wow this looks so great!" - "Yeah but it is made with a computer"

.... SO WHAT!! What can we do? I dont have a clue!

-KDX-
04-07-2005, 07:06 PM
I'm 50/50...is that ok to say??

cause if I couldn't make art for whatever reason, I'd surely still do nerdy technological stuff, and vice versa..

-KDX-

DaddyMack
04-07-2005, 10:36 PM
I'm 50/50...is that ok to say??

cause if I couldn't make art for whatever reason, I'd surely still do nerdy technological stuff, and vice versa..

-KDX-

Well said! Ditto;)

lulaassassina
04-07-2005, 10:40 PM
Man, artist allways had a geek side. It's necessary. :D

luv.

jmBoekestein
04-08-2005, 01:22 AM
what's the definition of a dork, then ...cause i think i fall into that category hehehe. At least that's what my girlfriend calls me. Do dorks have girlfriends? hmm...

I really was wondering what this thread was about. Ah well, :surprised .


As to an answer, when my art fails, it's the computers fault. When my computer fails it's the arts fault. I'm just saying there's no proof of either actually. Because in the last case all my files were destroyed too.

I hate it.

ozhaver
04-16-2005, 08:01 AM
I am an artist first, computers don't excite me that much...as my computer science pals...now those are computer geeks and no, they are not artistic, and no, I don't link computer geekness with artistry...and most computer geeks I know IRL are also nerds...but none are artistic...will someone tell me how knowledge of logarithms can be artistic? And please don't post me one of those program generated pretty color graphics...tsk tsk tsk...

Though I am a proud RPG geek. :D

jmBoekestein
04-17-2005, 08:33 PM
How about artist geekness?

I find a lot of "artists" to sport their "eccentricity" as some kind of special godgiven talent which has nothing to do whatsoever with anything geeky.

Some of them lock themselves up, me amongst others, to learn more artsy fartsy stuff. And a lot of them are social derelicts(and I don't say us because I'm in a well ordered state of denial).

J*s*s, did I just say that?

Cicinimo
04-19-2005, 04:53 PM
I have a love/hate relationship with my computer, while art I really only love. I'm an artist first and a computer geek second. I'm horrible with computer, while art comes at least half way naturally.

andrewtl
04-19-2005, 06:33 PM
Everyone knows that Nerds are between 5'2" and 5'9" and Geeks are 5'9" to 6'4". If any of these people have unkempt hair and messy closets they are artists.


Sweeeet! I'm a geeky artist... :D Also glasses is a huge factor on whether you are a geek or a nerd. Nerds wear them geeks don't.

I love being blatently superficial.

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