CGTalk - Why do you think there aren't that many XSI users?

StefanA

08-11-2003, 01:23 AM

here are a few companys that uses XSI

http://home.tiscali.se/sbanders/company.html

And you should also subscribe to the xsi e-mail list where most users are active.

http://www.highend3d.com/xsi/listserver/

and of course also http://www.xsibase.com/ where you'll find a "few" more users :)

We are a lot, we are just active in different places :)

But Softimage lost a lot of it's user base when the Maya hype hit. And those who were left were the advanced hardcore users. Which might now seems to be elite. But you almost "thanks' to that we now have a really good foundation of advanced users and extremely dedicated developers.

I my self made the move from MAX to Softimage|3D five years ago. I felt the same thing as you do now :) I hope I'll never have to work with 3dsmax again in my life (unless they rewrite it from the ground and doesn't have Autodesk in their backs).

best regards

.stefan andersson

Aevium Viemme

08-11-2003, 01:38 AM

Yes, I have XSIBase as my home page and Ed's site as one of my first bookmarks, and I've read all I can about Softimage's users on their site, but it's even more obvious on the general forums such as these. Compare the XSI forum to the Maya or Max forum and you see a difference.

Oh well, we're all better anyway :D.

JDex

08-11-2003, 02:45 AM

I hate to say it, but price has to be one of the factors... Alot of people don't believe that it's workflow improvements are worth the 50-250% premium. I actually find the premium to be extremely worth while (although I'm still on a academic version). I think if XSI4 hits at Christmas time, it has most of the improvements being "buzzed" about (and some that are needed but not on the in the works list), and they invoke a small (say 15%) price reduction, even more studios & freelancers will jump on the bandwagon.

ggg

08-11-2003, 08:28 AM

with a lot of the 2D/3D tricks studios do, it could be really big if a big chunk of what matador can do is included and perhaps other possible features, then the difference in cost maybe more worth it to many studios.
ie. 2D fx like tracking, vector paint, and a good integrated warper (that was mentioned as a possibility) that could warp in 2d based on 3D scene and/or image info could really help with integration of 2d fx and 3d in one app.

PS I have a one word answer to the question: jobs

JDex

08-11-2003, 04:16 PM

Agreed!!! I think that incorporating some or all of the functionality of Matador into XSI4 will completely change the dynamics of the market.

Signal2Noise

08-11-2003, 07:01 PM

Another factor in why there seems to be one app favored or used more than another: Warez. I do not condone the use of warez nor do I want this to turn into a bogus flame war thread but it is an unfortunate reality out there. Just do a search on Kazaa for any CG app and see how many hits you get. Betcha there will be a couple of hits for Soft, a dozen or so for Maya, and hundreds for Max, etc. That's a good indicator of what's most popular and available to download, thus the number of 'users' listed on particular forums for those apps. Lot's of newbies seeking more info on to use the software they've downloaded register on related forums. Good sites like our very own CGT luckily quickly filter these miscreants out.

There was a good article in either 3D World or Digit (I forget) about the popularity of apps, both legit and pirated, and it's effects in the CG industry on a whole.

d8ed

08-12-2003, 02:09 AM

more XSI jobs would really come in handy.. i've only seen a handful in the last few months and they're mostly technical non artistic positions. i took a big risk sticking to XSI while in school and i'm very close to switching over to max/maya unless i can find a job soon. the potential is there but it's just not happening right now. if i had to do it all over again, i probably would have learned max/maya instead and made myself more qualified for the hundreds of jobs i see requiring those packages.

as far as warez are concerned.. why do you think MAX is so popular right now? Softimage should be flatered that people want to learn their application bad enough to crack the SPM software. the more illegal copies out there, the bigger the user base, the more likely a company will consider switching over, the happier Softimage gets. sure they might lose some sales here and there because some asshole is using an illegal copy of XSI to make money.. but the users who chose to learn the software in the first place are also losing by not being to find job ads asking for XSI knowledge and experience.

anyhow.. i'm sure XSI will dominate the market soon enough.. but i might not be able to survive until that day comes. dropping their prices a bit might convince some studios to switch over. after all.. studios only exist to make money.

Zastrozzi

08-12-2003, 09:51 AM

I agree dropping the price will be a big improvment for XSI as its hard for a studio to justify spending more money on an app with a smaller user base evan if the app is more powerfull / better ( I think it is but others might not) anyways I think that a great thing they have done to encourage people wanting to purchase XSI for home use is say that you get a 5,000 dollar discount on you first purchace of the software (not this is the max amount off if you get a lower end package of XSI than you get less money off still a great deal though) I wish I could afford it though its tough I can geta new car for less

xsisx

08-12-2003, 10:16 AM

i would rather have elitists and great companies/ studios using xsi than thousands & thousands of hobbyists.
i'm glad xsi is in a league with houdini. and hope softimage doesn't drop their prices.

Zastrozzi

08-12-2003, 10:21 AM

? why ?

JDex

08-12-2003, 11:26 AM

I am kind of with you on that xsisx, but I think if they lowered their price just a bit (about 10-15%) I think it could boost the number of hiring studios using XSI about 15-30% or so, this means many more jobs for the talented XSI userbase and better sales for SI, who can then continue to invest in their great R&D without becoming the next "pro-app for hobbiests". :D

08-12-2003, 12:50 PM

I think is not only about the price it self, the lack of training materials is one, XSI has too few tutorials in comparsion with other 3D packeges (excluding Houdini), this type of things scare people away when they are thinking about learning something. Another one is the position taken by Avid - Softimage till now in relation about marketing stuff, they are not getting into the nasty fight between Maya and Max, but I think this is only a matter of time.
I really don't know, I think XSI is kinda trendy, hype right now is just wait to see how many faithfull users will remain from this bubble :)

Little one but it's a bubble :)

Just my 2 centavos de reais!

See ya! 8)

08-12-2003, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by xsisx
i would rather have elitists and great companies/ studios using xsi than thousands & thousands of hobbyists.
i'm glad xsi is in a league with houdini. and hope softimage doesn't drop their prices.

Couldn't agree more man, why have a huge hobbyists base?
To not find a good job in the industry?
To be badly paid?
There is no reason to, fewer is better

With ILM, Animal Logic including XSI to their pipeline, sooner or later all the major companies will have him, the next step in the chain is to some of medium sized production companies also aquiring XSI license. So I think XSI position will popup soon!

See ya! 8)

Zastrozzi

08-12-2003, 08:08 PM

A large user base quickens the adoption rate by studios. Why would they start using a package if no one knows how.
It also increase the amount of reasources in the community Tutorials custom scripts Plugins ect.
If an app has a large user base 3rd party developers will make plugins.
Hobbiest don't end up taking pro user jobs cause they are hobbiest they ar't on the same skill level.
A user shouldn't relate to your salarey at all. If you are unhappy with what you would be making don't sign the contract/ ask for more.
I agree that I would rather have a few talanted useas than a few not so talanted but it dosn't hurt to have both.

swampthing

08-12-2003, 08:37 PM

Signal to noise hit one of the biggest factors on the nose. I think that XSI being so hard for the warez dudes to crack has actually hurt them quite a bit and people that woulda given it a try couldn't because they couldnt' get it. The price would probably be the number 2 reason. Lack of tutorials, and good educational resources is probably the 3rd reason.

3dsmax didn't get to be number one by being good, it got there by being pirated to the gills and being easily available.

3DDave

08-12-2003, 08:38 PM

Lower prices would increase the volume of sales, customers, and future revenue for the company in the form of upgrades. Those are all positives. Professionals would need to become better to compete with the "hobbiest" in the job market. That is a positive as well.

Zastrozzi

08-12-2003, 09:19 PM

Well although I myslef have a leagle copy of XSI I know for a fact that it isn't that hard to get for example the New Orleans beta was available to pirates and instead of cracking the software they crack the licence server so that they don't touch the acctual program code. this allows them to release a crack version of the licence server along with teh software it runs a week after it is relaesed by softimage. I know many people I went to school with who have 3.5 through warez now. So although its not pirated as much this is not because it isn't available to be.

tachy0n

08-13-2003, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by 3DDave
Lower prices would increase the volume of sales, customers, and future revenue for the company in the form of upgrades. Those are all positives. Professionals would need to become better to compete with the "hobbiest" in the job market. That is a positive as well.

IMHO not every app can or has to be 'hobbyist' friendly. XSI is certainly not one of these. Given it's depth and complexity, plus the technical skill required to get the best out of it, XSI is not really suitable for the 'newbies'. No matter how much the price drops.

I agree that the 'unofficial' users can add to the seeming popularity of an app, but there are also other reasons for the popularity of MAX. MAX (as well as LW) favors a very different kind of approach to 3d then XSI, Houdini or even Maya. In MAX, you have lot's of little tools, plugins, scripts etc. each of which does a few pre-defined thing very well. What this means is that even the less experienced users can quickly produce someting decent with the minimum of fuss. IMO this is the primary reason that makes MAX so popular, both amongst the official and warez users. Of course this comes at the expense of flexibility. XSI on the other hand has a lot fewer tools, but they are flexible and work together quite well. Since it takes much more skill to get the same kind of result as in MAX or similar apps, XSI scares away the non-serious users (which is what most of these warez kiddies are)

And personally i would love to see the price of XSI drop, but not at the expense of the app itself.

jmcalpin

08-13-2003, 02:47 AM

my only reason for not getting deeper into XSI (have an avid at work with some of softimage with it) is the lack of tutorials. It was the same problem Maya had. at $7,000 the video training companies just didn't want to foot the bill.

I remember a famous site one of those training co. put up. they went to a con. won a free copy of maya and decided cool we'll do a training video. So they hired a maya guru, flew him down and in route the guys at the co. called up to get the license # to install their copy and Alias said "no" they changed their mind.

The famous page was a before and after shot of the maya box blasted by a shot gun. really!!!

It's a chicken and the egg problem. Unless enough users buy XSI the price wont go down... users wont buy XSI until the price goes down.

Then again everyone is making light versions of their software so maybe XSI will have a cheaper version to do exactly what you said. Get alot of users trained in it. And give studios a basic tool to use.

until then i'll keep experimenting with my free version.

Jason

Aevium Viemme

08-13-2003, 07:24 AM

OK, that much I understand. But what is the real world demand for XSI? Does every studio want it? Or only the big leagues?

JDex

08-13-2003, 07:32 AM

The demand is simply what gives companies the biggest bang for their buck. It is very fluid and trendy, but SI is a solid solution that many large studios, some medium studios, and a handful of smaller studios currently use in their pipeline. If SI continues to bring a high level of productivity with their solution, studios will continue to buy it. I can't forsee any good reason SI wouldn't continue to do this considering their R&D investments, prestigious name, great support staff, loyal professional user base, and connection to AVID/DigiDesign.

Aevium Viemme

08-13-2003, 07:35 AM

Do smaller studios usually use JUST XSI in their pipeline? I know that there's never just one app, but with XSI, I think it's a different question.

JDex

08-13-2003, 08:02 AM

Well, this is really an question left to the individual studios. I am sure that there is a percentage that use XSI exclusively, but most studios that I am familiar with will use a variety of different applications based upon the product that they are producing.

Zastrozzi

08-13-2003, 09:21 AM

Well the is the free version of xsi you can download to learn it and I know that when HL2 comes out this fall a modders version of xsi is shipping with it or will be available to download as well (stripped of lots of functionality)

EdHarriss

08-13-2003, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Zastrozzi
Well the is the free version of xsi you can download to learn it and I know that when HL2 comes out this fall a modders version of xsi is shipping with it or will be available to download as well (stripped of lots of functionality)

http://www.softimage.com/products/exp/v3

swampthing

08-13-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by tachy0n
I agree that the 'unofficial' users can add to the seeming popularity of an app, but there are also other reasons for the popularity of MAX. MAX (as well as LW) favors a very different kind of approach to 3d then XSI, Houdini or even Maya. In MAX, you have lot's of little tools, plugins, scripts etc. each of which does a few pre-defined thing very well. What this means is that even the less experienced users can quickly produce someting decent with the minimum of fuss. IMO this is the primary reason that makes MAX so popular, both amongst the official and warez users. Of course this comes at the expense of flexibility. XSI on the other hand has a lot fewer tools, but they are flexible and work together quite well. Since it takes much more skill to get the same kind of result as in MAX or similar apps, XSI scares away the non-serious users (which is what most of these warez kiddies are)

See i flat out disagree with this. This seems like almost an elitist attitude in that XSI is hard to use so only the "pro's" use it. This is just silly. Why would ANYONE be it a pro or hobbyist want to use something that was actually harder to acheive results? No one in their right mind would use a tool that actually made their job harder. ESPECIALLY professionals. Professionals don't have one luxury that hobbyists do and that's time. So them purposely getting a tool that slows them down would be flat out silly.

I don't see how you say max or lightwave or whatever suffer from flexibility either. All of them have workable scripting languages and there's a tool for WHATEVER you could possibly want in any situation. That's the definition of flexibility. You seem to be confusing "skill" in artistry with the ability to figure out software. The 2 don't have anything to do with one another. In fact the first app that takes all the software skill out will probably be one of the most successful. I'm sorry but your post just really comes off as trying to sound better because you chose XSI and some people that download apps for free are nothing but 2 bit hacks. I'd wager you'd be shocked at how many pieces of truly incredible art are posted here on CG talk that were done with illegal versions of software.

EdHarriss

08-13-2003, 04:05 PM

Ok everyone, be nice. Also, so far the warez talk has been reasonable. But warez talk is against the rules here at CGTalk. I'm only letting this thread continue because it has been, for the most part, very civil.

wmendez

08-13-2003, 04:06 PM

As some have mentioned the Sumatra development days cost Softimage many of their customers but as you can see now that delay and foundation is what lets Softimage Develop at in incredible rate which is now paying off. If an updated Matador like app is included within FX Tree as well as Rigid Body dynamics mainly the later,we will see more Studios coming to Soft.

I do not believe that Soft will lower their price because they will have to sell twice as many licenses to make up for the original cost. Sites like XSI Base, EdHarriss, Joncrow, XSI Files,highend3d are on the forefront of getting users educated on XSI as well as local user groups when before there were none now there are about 5 and the possibilty of a 6th.

3D Buzz, 3D Tutorial,Mesmer,Ed Harriss,Cineframe have produced some excellent training material with more in the works.

Something that is missing are the books when I go to my local Chapters (Barns & Noble /Borders equiv in Canada) I see almost 5 or 6 books on Maya as well as 3DS Max hopefully that will change as well.

While warez will alway be around the EXP version is avialable for both Windows and Linux users and the talked about Half Life Version will expose XSI to the modding community.

Check out our education section on XSI Base for a list of training material available as well as www.softimage.com/education/xsi/default.asp

Aevium Viemme

08-13-2003, 06:07 PM

I believe EXP is really for people who just want to testdrive XSI, but the illegal versions are for those who want to use it but don't have enough to spend on it. I mean, it's never a good thing to use illegal copies, but how does that hurt XSI? And are there a lot of freelancers using the Commercial version instead of the Student version?

xsisx

08-13-2003, 06:26 PM

someone close this thread please...

JDex

08-13-2003, 06:38 PM

Okay, this is a good thread, drop the warez talk before it gets lock.

Warez is bad!!!

Aevium Viemme

08-13-2003, 06:52 PM

Oh...I'm sorry, I didn't mean for this to be a warez discussion. Apparently it's gone this way, I'm sorry.

Well, I have a general idea of XSI's status in the industry, which is what I wanted. Thanks a lot! :)

Paul L. Ming

08-14-2003, 12:02 AM

Hiya.

What I'd like to see Softimage do is focus on the "we care about our customers" aspect of business that so many businesses nowadays just don't have. My experience with them has been, shall we say, "professionally cold". Oh, they are polite on the phone, emails, and all that. They put out hyped-up adverts and other marketing drivel like everyone else. But I just *know* they don't give a damn about me. They don't care if I use their software or not, as long as I give them money. They don't put in any extra effort more than they have to.

Now, if I was a studio with a half-dozen or more licenses I'd bet that their attitude would change dramatically. I'd probably get call backs when I have already had a problem solved...just to make sure everything was running fine. In short, they'd actually care about my happiness with their software.

Also, they should realize that even the "little guys" use their software. Or at least, they want to. If Softimage could come out with some sort of "pay-per-month", "rent-to-own" or some other means of dispersing the cost over time, they'd get a LOT more people buying in. If you could plunk down $3000 for a "down payment", and then pay $200/month. The person gets a renewed license every 4 or 6 months. Persons that fail to pay, don't get the license and the software times out. If/when new versions come out, the person could pay the "upgrade" cost and continue on with the new version, paying that off. Kinda like a "Softimage Software Lease". I bet a lot of smaller studio's could afford to slap down $15k for 5 seats, and then pay $1000 per month...or more if they want to pay faster.

Softimage would start to get a larger "professional" user base, and at the same time they aren't treating the single freelancer as the redheaded stepchild. ;)

Warez wise, I won't go there. I'm against it if the person uses it to make money. I'm for it for people who want to just play with it but would never have the $ in their lifetime to buy it. Now no more from me on warez.

I'd like to see more tutorials for Softimage. I want them to be done in an excrusiating (sp?) manner. I want a tutorial for EVERY single tool in the program. There are vast amounts of tools, options, settings, etc. that I still have no real clue about. It's one thing to say "Photon Energy is how much light gets used", it's quite another for the new user to interpret that into a meaningful sense (i.e., "Ok. I have it at 10 Is that too much? Will my image get washed out?"). In short, information with no understanding/explanation. Super-tutorials would be sweet! :D

StefanA

08-14-2003, 12:25 AM

Paul: I don't know what kind of contact you have had with Softimage. But I have never felt that "proffessional cold" as you say. I have always been help fast and they have been very supportive when I needed help.
They *do* care about what you feel and how everything goes. Have you ever tried getting an issue tested on the XSI list? You'll be amazed how well they answer you and might admitt that they might have to change things. I think you are way out of line here. And they do listen just as much to the single user as they listen to a company.

As for monthly payment. It does exist, you just have to talk with your reseller about it. You can also rent a license.

And since a lot of people are talking about tutorials.I belive that there are tons of tutorials out there, and more are created by the day.
The manuals are also a good source for knowledge, it's basicly all there. If something is missing you can quickly get an answer on the xsi e-mail list.
And don't forget about the tutorials that Softimage produces that are outside the manual kit. Just logon at softimage.com and you'll find quite a few. And those videos they make to show a new feature is also very cool.

With all that said. I have NEVER worked with an application where I have recived this good support. Many years ago I worked for a distributor who sold 3dsmax, and even though I was the distrubitor I did get as good support as I do now when I'm a end-user for Softimage.

best regards

.stefan andersson

JDex

08-14-2003, 01:25 AM

I am really surprised that you have felt like a red-headed step-child. I am just a user of the academic license, and when I had some technical issues getting the SPM Server up, they treated me like I was their only concern. It was great, I felt like I was being treated as a 100 seat studio.

vmpre

08-14-2003, 01:46 AM

Also, they should realize that even the "little guys" use their software. Or at least, they want to. If Softimage could come out with some sort of "pay-per-month", "rent-to-own" or some other means of dispersing the cost over time, they'd get a LOT more people buying in.

Funny you mention that cuz about what a year ago they did have a lease program. I have no idea if it was sucessful in bringing in the "little" guys, but you could pay a certain amount a month for I think 2 years and then you would own the software. If I remember correctly you also get upgrades during that time. It was quite the deal when they had it.

As for your experience, this is not typical. I can personally say that they very much care about the end users, all of them. Get on the XSI mailing list, you will see that various Softimage staff members also participate. It is a great forum for XSI help.

Believe it or not they take their customers very seriously. I have had first had experience with this as well.

Vmpre

wmendez

08-14-2003, 05:55 AM

Paul,

As a freelancer everytime I have called Softimage I have always been taking care of as if I was thier only customer.

Even Kim Aldus who is also a freelancer has had his suggestions implimented as features within the Software.

now if it came to an issue where ILM or The Mill was having a severe bug problem it would be understanable that they will receive the higher priority.

The mailing list is a great resource as well not only do you get the support from the industry pros but Soft employees, Managment, and every once in a while the managing Director himself posting.

I hope your next interaction with soft will be a much better one.

ggg

08-14-2003, 09:07 AM

I agree with Will, I've had features implemented even bulleted ones and I'm just a student.

But I do have to disagree about the user groups.
Originally posted by wmendez

I do not believe that Soft will lower their price because they will have to sell twice as many licenses to make up for the original cost. Sites like XSI Base, EdHarriss, Joncrow, XSI Files,highend3d are on the forefront of getting users educated on XSI as well as local user groups when before there were none now there are about 5 and the possibilty of a 6th.
Oh yeah the XSI toronto user group is so active and exciting :rolleyes:
Man I wish I was in Montreal or Vancouver fro their user groups to take advtange of the discussions Adam gets going.

Back to the discussion:
no entry or mid level XSI jobs = no new users.

wmendez

08-14-2003, 03:37 PM

Graham,

Tell Toronto to get on the ball :) By the way EA is opening shop in Montreal, EA uses XSI so there might be some opportunity there

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=767791#post767791

TWooster

08-17-2003, 11:42 PM

Well, my own two cents.

(I'll avoid the warez issue, but I'll say this: userbase is userbase.)

There is a definite chicken and egg problem going on. Softimage XSI is an awesome program, but it's really not too accessible -- yet. Softimage is simply too expensive for most companies to make the leap. The cost is too high -- the cost of the software, the cost in terms of time of finding skilled artists, the cost of going in a direction that a lot of people don't.

It's a lot easier to pick up a copy of Maya and an artist off the street (let's face it, they're almost as ubiquitous as Max or LW users.) I'm going to agree that a price reduction of 10-15% would really do wonders. Sometimes a company just has to take a hit in the shortterm to come ahead in the longterm. Maya is the perfect example -- it's expensive enough that it's "prestigious" and that A|W makes money, and cheap enough that hobbiests cum freelancers can purchase a copy without mortgaging the house.

I'm not saying that Avid should cut their prices that low, but something does have to happen. And I wouldn't discredit the ability of freelancers; pros get their start somewhere, and it's probably not in a major studio.

Secondly, in terms of the usability factor (as was mentioned earlier). XSI isn't hard once you understand the concepts involved. But you can't just jump in. You really have to know what you're doing. Think of it as two-finger typing versus ten-finger. The end results are similar, but one takes a signifigantly longer investment of time for a signifigantly more useful skill. I'm sure you can make the connnection to 3d software.

Third, in terms of support, I'd like to say that I've had really really awesome experiences with Avid. I've never actually called on them for support, but I found an ASP bug on one of their webpages and explained what I thought the problem was. They thanked me by sending a free T-shirt. I can gauruntee that discreet wouldn't have don't nearly as much.

I subscribe to the XSI mailing list, and every other day you see a developer take a customer's idea and putting it on the todo list. That's just too damn cool.

But yes, it's damn costly. All this comes at a cost.

Oh, I lost my train of thought.

Right, one more thing: Once HL2 comes out, I'd expect a jump in userbase, be it legal or otherwise. Once lots of people are introduced to it, it may become difficult to live without.

Cheers.