Autodesk Labs launches Project Twitch

[kees]

Oh boy, my nightmare has become reality.

/hugs his 3dsMax8 copy even more tightly.

[davius]

Well, they certainly are keeping a lot of people out by their system requirements (1000 miles from the server?). This is a cloud I want to stay out.

[DuttyFoot]

hmm, could this be a sign of things to come in.

from the faq page

Will you provide support for editing and saving for files?
The first objective of the Twitch project is to test the functionality and usability of the remote delivery of our applications. The infrastructure to support uploading or downloading files or storing them on our servers is something we are evaluating but we wanted to focus on the first component to make sure that the service delivered an experience that was acceptable to our users before moving forward with full file support.

Do plan on offering remote access to your applications as a commercial service?
We continue to evaluate the quality and usability of this type of application delivery, the technology that enables it, as well as the demand for it.

[Hauzer]

Software as a service, here we come...

[rock]

I would suggest Autodesk to work on their core products first before venturing into something new. Look at the bysmal release of all of their 2010 products. Putting Maya 2010 with no changes on cloud computing networks can now mean Maya 2011.

[cresshead]

did you read the title of the page?

"Test drive without installing or downloading Autodesk applications"
so it looks the be a new way of delivering demo versions without downloading/installing.

[davius]

did you read the title of the page?

"Test drive without installing or downloading Autodesk applications"
so it looks the be a new way of delivering demo versions without downloading/installing.

Not entirely true. You still have to download and install a "client". I'm a client of AD since max 5 and would hate to be installed in computers within a 1000 miles from their servers. :rolleyes:

[cresshead]

been max' n from 2.5.n still learning!

i might even be up for this if cloud based subscription gives you access to a Autodesk renderfarm!

[davius]

Sorry, I should stop trying to make jokes - they're awful and nobody understands them... :cry:

[spacefrog]

Sorry, I should stop trying to make jokes - they're awful and nobody understands them... :cry:

your client joke is acutally quite funny - it made me smile ;)

For the whole concept....
i'm really not too fascinated to see where they are putting their R&D resources in ....
be it twitch or the viewcube...

[davius]

i'm really not too fascinated to see where they are putting their R&D resources in ....


I second that! And thanks! You've got a wonderful sense of humor! And making jokes about AD is quite easy - all you need is post some of it's announcements and BANG! You're done! (Disclaimer: this was another joke :p)

[DanielWray]

This would be a bad move, i don't think a studio or production company would like to put there main applications several hundred/ thousand miles away on a remote server farm, that is running over the internet.

What happens if the ISP goes down, or the server farm goes down and it's deadline week. Your team is making use of the very latest AD product, which makes the file format incompatible with older versions that the studio has left, you can't use the files, you can't use the software and your production team just have to sit around and wait until either ISP or AD/ server farm company sort it out.

[The4thAggie]

They had better not do the same thing to their software as Digital tutors did to its content.

[BigPixolin]

This would turn me into one of those people who thinks it's cool to use outdated version of max. I absolutly hate this idea. Now if I could submit renders to this computing cloud that would sound appealing.

[heavyness]

well, i don't think this is how we will be working in 3D tomorrow. maybe educational versions and or mod tools for game... sure.

but what if this was add-in for current running app? lets just say you install max/maya like you always do, but then connect to the cloud for additional particle systems or material editing? or let you view someone else who is running maya/max so you can share viewports and collaborate easier.

or you open your material editor and search for "stone" textures. it searches libraries of 1,000 different stone textures and download the one you select.

will everything be in the clouds one day... sure. but even current apps like gmail and wordpress that are "in the clouds" have options to download and install on your pc (google gears).

personally, i like this stuff and it's a move in the right direction.

[visualride]

I can see it now. After loggin in for a Max session and start to model a house a pop up pops up covering your screen, flashing, with an announcers voice booming "I see that you're building a house. Would you like to be connected to one of our interior design representatives? Based on past models of teapots that you've made, I would suggest the following furniture from our new IKEA/AUTODESK store..."

[hrgiger]

Super, another reason to hate Autodesk.

[RobertoOrtiz]

I think I need to say this because I want to point to this thread in the future...


Guys
For the better or worst, this is a game changer for the industry...

Dont take this news lightly. This will affect how you do CG in the near future.
Research this.

-R

[visualride]

Autodesk's direction for updated interfaces does not look good. Subscription center bar taking up extra space that you can't get rid of...



This points to a greater foray into trying to make it easier for them to sell more products to the user at any point. Max will be Googlized. That was my exaggerated point in my previous post. With an online product, I'm sure that we will start seeing spam pop ups into the work space.

I believe that it will be a much better deal for Autodesk than the consumer.

[khendar]

Autodesk's direction for updated interfaces does not look good. Subscription center bar taking up extra space that you can't get rid of...



This points to a greater foray into trying to make it easier for them to sell more products to the user at any point. Max will be Googlized. That was my exaggerated point in my previous post. With an online product, I'm sure that we will start seeing spam pop ups into the work space.

I believe that it will be a much better deal for Autodesk than the consumer.

A software company trying to sell software ? What is this world coming to ? :rolleyes:

[RobertoOrtiz]

I would suggest to all to reserach more on the subject


You will find that organizations are moving to the cloud en masse. Merril Lynch predicts value of cloud marketplace to be > $160 Billion by 2011.

Gartner projects that Software as a Service (Saas) cloud computing will continue to grow at an annual compound growth rate of more than 22% in the same period."

Please do read more on this topic.

-R

[talos72]

Cloud computing is the future! People who are reluctant, understandably, fail to grasp the significance of cloud computing: the ability to have access to the latest versions of any software or games or media without worrying about whether your computer has enough juice to run them and without worrying about tedious installations. The other day I tried installing Adobe CS4, and it was a total hassle. With every version softwares are getting more bloated and the whole license installation process with some softwares has become too convoluted. I like the idea of someday my computer acting as a mere portal through which I can access the latest software of choice knowing that it is always up to date. Carry a cheap laptop (only a couple of hundred bucks) with a big screen to your coffee shop and start rendering (on a huge render-farm on a remote server) and modeling millions of polys as you sip your latte while working on multiple "high-end" app and playing the most graphically intense game at the highest settings without your computer croaking. Now that's progress! :beer:

[DuttyFoot]

I like the idea of someday my computer acting as a mere portal through which I can access the latest software of choice knowing that it is always up to date. Carry a cheap laptop (only a couple of hundred bucks) with a big screen to your coffee shop and start rendering (on a huge render-farm on a remote server) and modeling millions of polys as you sip your latte while working on multiple "high-end" app and playing the most graphically intense game at the highest settings without your computer croaking. Now that's progress!

thats an interesting point and yes it would be cool, but i wonder how that would affect the overall pc industry. we all buy pc's and some of us love to build our own super machines. i know my point might be a bit far out but its just a thought.

[CHRiTTeR]

I think you dont get it. Online rendering is all nice and well, but you can already do that. Theres lots of online renderfarm services available. And its not that expensive either.

The point where it is bad for us as a user is that you dont actually own a copy anymore of the software. So software companies will actually start owning you even more then before. ;)

If you dont like where things are going with their development or pricing, just stop paying, right? But everyone knows it wont be as simple like that. Then you end up with all your project files being useless because you dont have access to the software needed to open and adjust those files.

What happens if a server fails? Theres going to be a lot of ppl in trouble!

[danlefeb]

What happens if a server fails? Theres going to be a lot of ppl in trouble!

I know that anything can happen but big companies put up big money to making sure that doesn't happen. A great example of that is Xbox Live...I've been a subscriber since it began and I've never seen it go down completely. It had major issues when Halo 3 launched, but it still worked (albeit slowly). That's the whole point of redundancy.

Every technology gets naysayers in the beginning. Some for good reason, and others simply because people don't like or think there is a need for change. A hard drive with 1 gigabyte of space? Why would you ever need that much space!? Anyway. I've read up one some cloud stuff since I heard about Azure a while back, and from what I can tell it's pretty sweet technology. I look forward to seeing where this goes in the future!

[CHRiTTeR]

We're not talking about playing games on xbox live.

[davius]

I would suggest to all to research more on the subject


You will find that organizations are moving to the cloud en masse. Merril Lynch predicts value of cloud marketplace to be > $160 Billion by 2011.

Gartner projects that Software as a Service (Saas) cloud computing will continue to grow at an annual compound growth rate of more than 22% in the same period."

Please do read more on this topic.

-R

While I respect the people who work for such companies we must remember that there are other things in game - including this same companies interests.

All these "revolutionary" ways of using the Internet are always interesting and shine like the inevitable future but this whole propaganda is made based on a perfect scenario where everyone has broadband access, is very close to the servers, and the later aren't overloaded. As a simple (and practical) example, my girlfriend is writing her Masters Degree right now and she is doing it on her laptop which came with Office2007. Why not do it using googledocs? Well, because this is her most important work to date, it's quite a big file word-wise (over 25MB), and she can't even think on the possibility of not having the document available if the connection goes down.

Now, having a backup in the cloud - thumbs up! Depend on it for critical work? That's your own risk.

And as a side note, don't take Merryl Lynch predictions too serious. They couldn't predict they would went bankrupt last year, remember?

[heavyness]

"what if the internet is down"... that's what Google Gears is for.

Obviously, the more we move into the cloud, more solutions like Google Gears will emerge. Bandwidth bills are going to sky rocket for companies that go all cloud, so having the bulk of your data on your local box will save them money. So if the internet goes down, what happens? You can't check your email and you can't get that newest update for 3ds max, but everything will continue working. And internet connections are going to become more and more important, so internet outages will become less and less.

Who uses Valve's Steam? Gmail? Hotmail? Pandora, LastFm, CGSociety? We're already in the clouds.

[davius]

"what if the internet is down"... that's what Google Gears is for.
(...)
Who uses Valve's Steam? Gmail? Hotmail? Pandora, LastFm, CGSociety? We're already in the clouds.

I agree that things are going to change in the future (not necessarily to the clouds) but we're talking about sensitive work, professional work, that NEEDS to be functioning 24\7 - or at least 12\5 :p. And the all "what if the internet is down" is just but one of the issues the cloud companies are going to face.

[danlefeb]

We're not talking about playing games on xbox live.

I realize that. It was an example of an online service that has a very good track record of up time. Worrying about a server going down isn't something that most people do these days for online services, because companies take the steps necessary to make sure that paying customers access their data. If they don't, they go out of business. That's my only point. I apologize if it didn't come across clearly. In hindsight, Rick made my point much better than I did.

[RobertoOrtiz]

For those pushing for the cloud, this might be of interest:

Cloud Goes Boom, T-Mo Sidekick Users Lose All Data‎ -
Quote:
This week has been a rough one for T-Mobile's Sidekick users. T-Mobile's Sidekick service experienced a prolonged data outage and today came the really bad news. The servers Microsoft (NSDQ: MSFT), T-Mobile and Danger use to store all the data for Sidekicks have crashed, and all user data appears to have been lost.

link (http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/10/cloud_goes_boom.html;jsessionid=VZB0WK1PYDW4HQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN#)

[davius]

Thanks for the info Roberto. The whole cloud concept has a lot of potential, but there's still quite a way to go and half the goodies they market with it is just plain propaganda.

Imagine a server where you have a big client's project goes Puff while you sleep... Scary I know!!!

[heavyness]

Well, most placed I've worked, when a server goes down, we have a backup one running. Sure, there is downtime, but we don't loose info. I don't know what happened exactly, but I hope someone over at T-Mobile gets fired.

Like I said, I still think most data will be stored locally. Just like Valve lets you pre-load an entire game a week before it comes out and then sends you the final bits day of.

[khendar]

For those pushing for the cloud, this might be of interest:

Cloud Goes Boom, T-Mo Sidekick Users Lose All Data‎ -
Quote:
This week has been a rough one for T-Mobile's Sidekick users. T-Mobile's Sidekick service experienced a prolonged data outage and today came the really bad news. The servers Microsoft (NSDQ: MSFT), T-Mobile and Danger use to store all the data for Sidekicks have crashed, and all user data appears to have been lost.

link (http://www.informationweek.com/blog/main/archives/2009/10/cloud_goes_boom.html;jsessionid=VZB0WK1PYDW4HQE1GHPCKH4ATMY32JVN#)


Sounds like some pretty piss-poor disaster management right there. Nobody in their right mind runs a system like that without proper backup and restoration procedures.

[Syndicate]

I agree that things are going to change in the future (not necessarily to the clouds) but we're talking about sensitive work, professional work, that NEEDS to be functioning 24\7 - or at least 12\5 :p. And the all "what if the internet is down" is just but one of the issues the cloud companies are going to face.

I second this. Especially the "Sensitive" aspect of it. Some projects can't afford to be leaked. Having a middleman, whether its a technician at Autodesk or simply someone outside of the compound/studio, is very risky. I know that sending some of our arch-viz projects to large external "render" houses has resulted in some strange re-use of our assets in competitor videos.

All I'm saying is I dont want some server in India holding my project files and being looked after by someone that keeps telling me to power my computer off and on again.
Reality check people. On a high profile project, nothing goes in and out of the studio. Software versions stay the same unless a critical feature is required. That is just my experience and personal opinion.

I dont think this will work anyway. For example a lot of rendering is now done in real-time engines (or at least that's the trend). GPU architecture now supports rendering and offloading intensive CPU tasks... so its just a matter of time before your pc = a small renderfarm.

The future is cheaper software. $99 a month subscription for all access. Autodesk would make an absolute bucketload. No more worrying about upgrading and "moneys worth". You pay $99 anyway so if something new comes out, its a bonus. If you still want to use older software, then it will take you over two years before "you may as well have bought the box outright". 2 years is about as long as I have gone without updating the software in a project (mainly due to customisation and in-house plugins).

[davius]

(...) Some projects can't afford to be leaked. (...)
Wolverine, anyone?
(...) The future is cheaper software. (...)
And about the cheap software, check this out (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2008/05/court-smacks-autodesk-affirms-right-to-sell-used-software.ars) . I can almost ear the "WE'RE DOOMED!!" cry around AE shareholders. This whole "we license it, not sell it" never really convinced me. Every time I bought a book I bought a COPY of it, not the art/story itself. I believe the same thing applies to software.

Well, they are still going to appeal, but hey! A little reality hand-slap is a good thing now and then!

[ddustin]

A friend sent me the link for this thread and said it would make my blood boil.
What an understatment.

This is a BAD BAD idea. This is a "we should move to C4d" or any other other software idea.

Please AD pull your heads out of that dark smelly place and dump this idea NOW.

We your users don't f'n want it, not now, not ever!!

Please just ask your users what they want and I promise you this approach is not it.

The damn loons have been talking about this approach for software since the 90's.

We didnt like it then and surely dont like it now.

Do you all get togehter in a room and say "how can we really screw over our user base today?".

[Jarwulf]

The business suits are pushing cloud computing mostly because cloud sounds way cool to investors and it makes them look like they're doing something about the supposedly crippling losses from piracy. And more importantly it gives them tighter control over how you use the software. Cloud computing lends itself easily to enforced subscriptions, tiered services, obsolescence, elimination of used markets, and features that could be unlocked and relocked and changed at will.

With computers becoming faster and faster I don't see any real benefit to the consumer besides a glorified update and backup center.

[RobertoOrtiz]

Well this might be of interest then...

This also happened thisthis weekend, and the culprit was one of the companies pushing HARD for cloud based enviroments:
Air New Zealand blasts IBM over system crash
10,000 passengers standed over the weekend.
Air New Zealand chief executive Rob Fyfe has lashed out at IBM in an internal email about yesterday's mainframe crash that crippled services and disrupted thousands of passengers.

"In my 30-year working career, I am struggling to recall a time where I have seen a supplier so slow to react to a catastrophic system failure such as this and so unwilling to accept responsibility and apologise to its client and its client's customers," he says.
link (http://www.watoday.com.au/travel/travel-news/air-new-zealand-blasts-ibm-over-system-crash-20091012-gt4p.html)


And....

Google goes down, questions about cloud computing arise
May 16th, 2009
http://www.infoworld.com/d/cloud-computing/google-suffers-major-failure-454

[ddustin]

OK but we are not talking about the same thing here.

Mission critical applications I can understand the "cloud" mentality.
Side note: Remember when "clusters" were the end all solution for ultimate reliability?

We are talking about our 3d Software.

Completely different animal.....

[RobertoOrtiz]

Well there seems to be an agreement on that cloud computing lacks focus.
this is what the CEO of Oracle had to say on the subject:

The interesting thing about cloud computing is that we’ve redefined cloud computing to include everything that we already do,” Ellison said (http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20080926/why-yes-larry-can-speak-out-of-both-sides-of-his-mouth-why-do-you-ask/). “I can’t think of anything that isn’t cloud computing with all of these announcements….These people who are writing this crap are out there. They are insane. I mean it is the stupidest. Is it ‘Oh, I am going to access data on a server on the Internet.’ That is cloud computing?…Maybe I’m an idiot, but I have no idea what anyone is talking about. What is it? It’s complete gibberish. It’s insane. When is this idiocy going to stop?”

link (http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20091002/another-one-of-these-cloud-computing-rants-and-you%E2%80%99ve-got-yourself-a-stand-up-routine-larry/)

[davius]

Thanks for these other news Roberto. Here in Brazil at least one of our airlines has all of it's system in the clouds. Hope that what happened to Air New Zealand is not a sign of things to come.

It seems to me you changed your opinion about Cloud Computing quite a bit since your first posted in this thread, didn't you? This is one of the reasons I have a lot of respect for this forum! Here, most of the times, we really discuss ideas, not personal preferences!

Ok, maybe not most of the times... :p

[DuttyFoot]

The interesting thing about cloud computing is that we’ve redefined cloud computing to include everything that we already do,” Ellison said (http://digitaldaily.allthingsd.com/20080926/why-yes-larry-can-speak-out-of-both-sides-of-his-mouth-why-do-you-ask/). “I can’t think of anything that isn’t cloud computing with all of these announcements….These people who are writing this crap are out there. They are insane. I mean it is the stupidest. Is it ‘Oh, I am going to access data on a server on the Internet.’ That is cloud computing?…Maybe I’m an idiot, but I have no idea what anyone is talking about. What is it? It’s complete gibberish. It’s insane. When is this idiocy going to stop?”

Cloud’s water vapor….Cloud computing is not only the future of computing, it is the present and the entire past of computing.

…Salesforce.com has been around for a decade. And so has NetSuite…and people are saying, “Well, that’s cloud computing.” Google is cloud computing. Everyone is cloud computing….Everything is in the cloud now….It’s this nonsense.

…But it’s not water vapor. All it is is a computer attached to a network. What are you talking about? I mean, what do you think Google runs on?…Water vapor? It’s databases and operating systems and memory and microprocessors and the Internet!

…And the VCs, I love the VCs. [They ask their start-ups] “Oh…is that cloud?” [And the start-ups go] “Oh! Oh! Microsoft Word! Change ‘Internet’ to ‘cloud’! Mass change. Give it back to these nitwits on Sand Hill Road.”

…What do you mean by “cloud computing”?…All the cloud is is computers on a network.

Our industry is so bizarre. They just change a term and they think they’ve invented technology….You can’t just come up with a [slogan] like “Let’s call that ‘cloud.” [But] it sure beats innovation.”


I'm glad someone said it.

[AlexTamayo]

I read plenty of post from people supporting AD's standpoint on maybe having its users use its software through a network/server. And from those people some have said that the "what if the server/connection goes down" it's not a real problem because it has solutions, which I agree with most of the possible solution that you gave to the problem.

But what happens when I live and a country where all the ISPs have problems from time to time (not very often, but it happens, maybe 5 times a year) and the company I work in has an important deadline to meet and the our ISP happens to crash. Those crashes happen to last a day sometimes.

It would not be AD's fault, but why, if I know that kind of problem can happen, would I ever acquire a software/service from a company that entirely relays on something I cannot depend on? Its not all about their servers, my connection matters too.

[ddustin]

Well I live in the US and my ISP has had more then 5 problems this year.

Dont we also hear how all the streaming video and other high-band width application are "sucking up" all the available bandwidth on the internet?

Play with cloud technology all you want, just dont put my 3d software on a server and limit my access to it.

David

[BenDstraw]

what will happen with plug-ins,scripts, and any other customization :curious:

[RobertoOrtiz]

Maya 2010 Trial now available on Project Twitch (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=842944)

[Billabong]

I can almost guarantee you, the government will not like this. What I'm referring to, is there are a lot of companies that create training simulations and such for the military. I use to work for one and man they are some very paranoid people.

I can't really see this sitting to well with them.

-B

[cresshead]

I can almost guarantee you, the government will not like this. What I'm referring to, is there are a lot of companies that create training simulations and such for the military. I use to work for one and man they are some very paranoid people.

I can't really see this sitting to well with them.

-B

you mean goverments use ony the 30 day demos?..they don't buy apps?
this is just a way to DEMO an app without installing it on YOUR pc...

[Billabong]

you mean goverments use ony the 30 day demos?..they don't buy apps?
this is just a way to DEMO an app without installing it on YOUR pc...

I wasn't really referring to the apps as much as I was as keeping the files on some distant server, but at the same time, demo'ing apps I'm sure is only the beginning.

-B

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