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DogmaD
08-08-2003, 07:16 PM
Hello,

This is my first post in the focused section, i hope to get some good critique.

I am working on a scene, its about 3 boys stranded in a devastated city. ( they drive a vehicle that they have stolen from an airport and are rebuilding it to a vehicle that can be used in battle, but not in a Mad Max kind of way ) They have just been in a battle and are fixing the car ( the front wheel will be damaged and stuck in the ground ) and they have also salvaged a gun from the battlescene.
1st boy is the strong one, he is pulling/carying the gun to the car
2nd boy is the smart one, he is outside with his laptop, trying to reconfigure the car aiming system for the new gun.
3rd boy is the brave one, he drives the car and is a bit anyoing, shouting to the back that he is in a hurry.

I have finished the basic model for the car and now i am working on 1 of the characters, the 3rd to be exact. I don't work with scetches, so i don't have any concepts to show you. I am looking for a style that leans towards anime in expressions and style, but has some realistic features.

Currently, i have finished the modelling of the head, but i might be able to make it better with some help. After you guys/girls are happy with my head model, i will start texturing it and i will need a lot of help in that department.

Software: Max 5

SIMPLE RENDER

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/x4.jpg

WIREFRAME FRONT

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/x1.gif

WIREFRAME SIDE

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/x2.gif

WIREFRAME PERSPECTIVE

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/x3.gif

Thanks in advance,

Victor

rquinn
08-08-2003, 07:36 PM
looks good i think you found the looks you wanted

i think tho for some reason that this guy looks like he talks with the end of his tongue know what i mean?

DogmaD
08-08-2003, 10:29 PM
Hmmm.. i will place the lower jaw forward..
That might make his face look a little stronger. I am also working on the top of the skull, i thought it looked a little sheared to the front. I think i need to place the ear a little higher... I will place the update in 12 hours. ( night falls in holland )

gnarlycranium
08-09-2003, 07:55 AM
I think you're definitely getting a good style down with this, it looks good! Has that angry Tetsuo forehead glare thing going on!

I agree the ear needs to go a bit higher-- the lower part of the earlobe should line up with the end of the nose. The ear itself could use some more work, too, it needs to stick out more, right now it looks kinda smooshed.

Also, if you're going to animate this guy talking much, you might end up wanting to adjust the mesh layout around his mouth, there's not enough around-the-mouth loops. When a person opens their mouth far or grimaces, there's a sort of fold that runs down from the nose, past the corner of the mouth, and hooks together across the front of the chin, and your layout doesn't quite follow that. I guess you'll have to try the expressions to see if it's much of an issue or not.

He could probably use more detail around the eyelids, but if you're trying to keep the style simple what you've got might work.

DogmaD
08-09-2003, 08:41 AM
Thanks for the reply Gnarly Cranium, it helps a lot.

I will first show the updated side view.

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/x5.gif

This is my to do list:

Clear up the ear details, need some more depth, if i understand this correctly. ( Do you mean the ear needs to stick out more from the head, or the details in the ear need more definition, at the moment i am pretty happy the way the ear is connected to the head, but the inside needs some reworking )

Test the face with some simple expressions. I am working on a still, i want the faces to be flexible, i want to give the faces a lot of expression to give life to the image. I think you are right about the chin and jawline, they are giving me some problems, maybe need to correct some loops.

I will check the eyelids, he doesn't really have any now, i need to add the upper eyelid and look if it doesn't disturb the anime look to much.

I was thinking to add a simple texture and check how far in realisme i can go before i lose the anime look. I can add some more loops later in the process, because i won't to make big differences to the face layout in any later stage.

gnarlycranium
08-09-2003, 08:58 AM
I meant the ear should stick out more from the head-- if you study reference closely, you'll see that ears really do stick out a heck of a lot more than we think they do. Something like a 45 degree angle.

Are you going to cel-shade this stuff, or go with more realistic shaders, or something between?

DogmaD
08-09-2003, 10:10 AM
Maybe its something about my own ears then, they don't stick out at all :) I am reworking the ears now, i wasn't happy about the inside at all. So i opened google et voila! A load of ear images to follow. I will rotate the ears a little, but not to much.

I am not planning to use a shellshaded look, most of the time you lose a lot of detail that way. I will use realistic shaders, but im still considering to make outlines, for the anime look. I might even mix a shell shader 20/80 but i don't know yet, it depends on what looks good.

The shaders for the head won't be as detailed as some of the images shown on cgtalk, because i am constructing an environment and not a portrait of a head. But i will still try my best to make them look good, because i am not sure how i will position all the characters.

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/x6.jpg

dubge
08-09-2003, 05:02 PM
Nice start so far. But I woluld fix the upper right part of the ear. it needs to blend into the head a bit more.

examplehttp://www.acadiahearingaid.nb.ca/images/ears.jpg

keep going.:)

DogmaD
08-09-2003, 05:38 PM
Thanks Dubge,

I will fix it and post updates soon. I didn't even notice that the ear is connected to the head like that...

I have also started the construction of the body, i have designed some clothing that could work with my character and i will start modelling a dummy torso and lower body to lay the cloths on later.

DogmaD
08-16-2003, 02:04 PM
I have been working on the body.

This is my progress so far:

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/im1.jpg

I still need to work on the sleeve and the jeans.
The shoes are also a work in progress.

I haven't joined the head with the body yet, but i will soon.

Louman
08-18-2003, 05:13 AM
the shoes look a lil high fashion to me, i think u should go w/ some unlaced boots or some type or beat up sneakers, showing the characters been around, doing brave things.

Razorwolf
08-18-2003, 07:46 AM
http://users.pandora.be/razorwolf/awww.jpg
This part looks kinda weird to me..
great work on the head, can't wait to see the final movie :) it will look great cellshaded!

DogmaD
08-18-2003, 08:53 AM
Thanks for the replies!

Louman: You are right about the sneakers, i am still trying to find the right look. I don't know if i will give him some leather boots or work hard on these sneakers. I will have a look at it.

Razorwolf: Yeah, that part looks weird because there aren't any polygons there. The legs are instanced mirrors and the middle wasn't modelled yet at the time. This is because the two pieces of cloth overlap in the middle and that is impossible with instanced geometry. :)

Anyway, this is my current version, i still need to work a lot on the shoes and i don't like his jacket as it is, to low detail. I also need to attach his head, but i am not totally satisfied yet. Somehow it doesn't fit with the body the way i want. I think it has something to do with his jawline and eyesockets. I am satisfied with his shirt and jeans...

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/newrender.jpg

Stupid question: Does the head fit in the body 7 or 8 times? It fits about 7 times now and it looks pretty correct...

Important question: What would be the best way to unwrap this model, there are a lot of folds and i would hate to do all this work manually. Is there any plugin that unfolds automatically? I did see some good uvw unwrap tutorials on this site, maybe i should use those.

Forum question: How do i change the forum subject? It isn't accurate anymore.

I thought i would add the car i am working on. This is the car they will be using in the final image ( not your average car, is it ). It is still clean now, but as they are practically living in/on it, it will have a lot of stuff on it. Like some sleeping bags, food, clothing, etc...

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/car.jpg

I know i am not following the focused critique rules at the moment and i will update with wires as soon as i have found a way to change the threads subject.

Razorwolf
08-18-2003, 09:54 AM
I guess you can do it with the edit button. Most of the times the subject change is only visible in the thread itself and not in the list of threads.

I know this is WIP but I feel that there's not enough darkness in it, but this will come soon enough I hope =). The vehicle is nice and very original, can't wait to see it with an MG mounted on :)

-Razorwolf

Razorwolf
08-18-2003, 09:55 AM
Btw, could you post a cell-shaded render of the guy :cool: ?

DogmaD
08-18-2003, 10:37 AM
Thanks Razorwolf,

I allready noticed the subject for one post, its a shame i can't change the thread name.

I haven't looked into shellshading yet, but i will create one for you when i am done with the modelling ( the endimage will be a mix of shellshading and detailed textures ). The reason the images look a little over exposed is because i want to give the viewers a chance to see the normally dark areas. It is hard to comment on something you can't see. :)

I don't think i will make much progress today, have to learn for a test in 'Kansrekening en Statistiek', math...Bluh. :annoyed:

DogmaD
08-21-2003, 10:55 AM
Didn't make much progress the last couple of days.
I am thinking about re-modelling the jacket, somehow i can't get the folds to look right.

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/rendernew2.jpg

If anyone has some good references of how folds look when a person holds his arms like my model, that would be great.

gnarlycranium
08-21-2003, 11:13 AM
Not a single thing to complain about on the legs/pants.

You're right about the jacket though, it seems a bit odd. Also the proportions/position of his head to his neck and torso seems somehow off. Could you show us the body model with no clothes onnit?

Razorwolf
08-21-2003, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by DogmaD
Didn't make much progress the last couple of days.
I am thinking about re-modelling the jacket, somehow i can't get the folds to look right.

-img-

If anyone has some good references of how folds look when a person holds his arms like my model, that would be great.

You could easily wear a jacket, go to a mirror and spread your arms.. :wise:

DogmaD
08-21-2003, 01:06 PM
Razorwolf, i don't have a jacket made of suede or leather. A friend would send a picture, but he is a bit late. Its also hard to make a good picture if yourself when you are spreading your arms. :D

Gnarly Cranium. I don't have a full body, but i have this:

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/face1.gif

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/face2.gif

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/newrender3.jpg

Maybe i should make the chest a bit larger, but they are young boys, around age 17. I don't want them to have to much muscle on them.

gnarlycranium
08-22-2003, 03:05 AM
Having a body with some decent anatomy going for it to model the clothes on top of is pretty important for getting that stuff right. That said, you've done a darn good job on those pants, I don't know how you did that with no legs under there.

He looks considerably older than 17, I think. The head seems too large as well, but when I measure it against his height, it isn't... perhaps it's just very wide. Also I think the top of his head might not be high enough, his eyes aren't in the middle of his head... if his skull was raised a bit and then the whole head scaled down to be the same height it is now, that might help.

I'm seeing a problem in your head wire. The eyeballs are too large, and set much too close together. (for reference-- the eyeballs should be 1/5th of the head's width in diameter, and should be set 1 eyeball apart from each other, facing directly ahead-- yours appear to be turned outwards, fishlike) Could you post some closeup shots of just the head so we can figure out what's happening with the eyes?

DogmaD
08-22-2003, 09:12 AM
Thanks for the reply Gnarled Cranium, i allready looked at your site for the newbie face reference :)

Well, i only placed some cylinders and deformed them to get the general shape, i didn't want to spend ages modelling parts you don't see. the jeans did turn out well, i like them. I used some reference images of my girlfriend, just to get the folds right.

The head fits the body 7 times, i think it has to fit 7 times, but i always forget if its 7 or 8 times. Making the head smaller looks really bad though.

You are right about the eyes, i allready noticed it, but they fit the eyesockets so nice like this. I have to put some extra effort in his head. I have lowered the top of the head a while ago, maybe it was a mistake.

I will post an update of the head today!

Razorwolf
08-22-2003, 09:18 AM
The arm shape looks odd too.. I hadn't noticed it in the pic with the jacket but now it's clear that the arms need work :).

I want this movie =)

DogmaD
08-22-2003, 10:33 AM
Thanks for the replies.

Well, the arm does look strange, but that is because he will be wearing a jacket and i will model the jacket arm to look correct. I will first be working on a still, so one image, but i have to do a lot of modelling. This project will take a while.

this is my to do list:

- finish this character

- model 2 more characters

- work on the gun, they will be mounting

- model the props for the car

- model an urban devastated environment

- model the vehicle they salvaged the gun from

After i have done that, i will start working on an animation.

DogmaD
08-22-2003, 02:03 PM
This is the face update, i am still having some trouble with the eyes, but it is getting better.

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/face_adjust.jpg

WIRES

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/h1.gif

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/h2.gif

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/h3.gif

DogmaD
08-30-2003, 09:44 AM
I have remodelled parts of the jacket of the first character and i will show some updates soon. I have also started on the second character by now ( on his torso ). The second guy will be somewhat muscular, he will get some baggy pants. No shirt on, because i want to give him a tattoo over his body.

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/torso1.jpg
http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/torso2.jpg

I would like some critique on the front of the body, and how i should make a good transition from the arm to the chest. Don't mind the back to much, i haven't started defining it yet, so the polys are still a mess.

ukyo
08-31-2003, 07:43 AM
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0823015874/qid=1062312578/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/002-6655086-9800015?v=glance&s=books

Dynamic Wrinkles and Drapery
by Burne Hogarth

great book on the wrinkels of cloth.

zarkos
09-01-2003, 09:14 PM
I'm not sure if you wanted that but something is wrong with the neck. Here's the picture:
http://www.privrednik.co.yu/zarko/crit1.jpg

DogmaD
09-03-2003, 01:22 PM
Thanks Zarkos, i will adjust the neck as soon as i can.
Thanks Ukio, i might buy the book in the future, first i will try to find it in some local shops. :)

School has started again, so i didn't have to much time to continue modelling. This is the only progress i have made. I think it is moving in the right direction, but creating a good shoulder, with a clean polysetup is hard.

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/torso3.jpg

I think i will leave the upper body like this for a while and start modelling his baggy pants. :)
I am also thinking about closing this thread and starting a new, clean one, so if anyone knows how to close down threads, i would love to know.

Argon18
09-05-2003, 11:54 AM
Very good models.
Excelent topology.
Looking fordward for the final animation, Im sure is going to be great.
Nice work

DogmaD
09-08-2003, 07:45 PM
Thanks for the reply Argon18.

I am currently working on the enemy of the guys. ( I like to work on different models at the same time, that way i don't get sick of any of them )

Anyway, this is the background story on the enemy:


After the so called end of the world when everything got devastated, a zealot religion ( extreme form of christianity ) called the day of devastation judgement day, 3 categories are shown in this judgement:
1. the people who died and went to heaven
2. the people who died and went to hell
3. the people who didn't die and are cast out of the eternal life for once and for all, when they die their soul will die with their body.

Category 3 are the people the zealots believe are still on earth after so much devastation. These zealots think its their duty to hasten the death of all the humans remaining on earth, for they are the worst kind of humans in the 3 categories. By destroying everything left on earth, they hope to get into heaven or hell, everything is better than earth for them.

The zealot are merged with really big machines, these machines form a destructive weapon against any living thing. The zealots control them with their spirit and mind and feel what the machine is doing. If they hurt someone with the machine, they will endure the pain they cause on others ten fold back into their bodies. This is the only way they feel able to reach heaven when they die, redemption in life.



Now, this is how much progress i have made on the model.

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee//rbot.jpg

I have finished the main layout of the legs, but thats about it. Still looking for a way to get the character hanging on his symbolic cross to merge into the machine. It will take me some time to find the best way to do this, if you have any suggestions or sketches of ways to join organic with machines, don't hestitate to show me. :)

To do on this machine:

Power source

Merge between character and machine

Detailing on the legs

Big guns on the back

All the things that people do after modelling :)

Razorwolf
09-08-2003, 08:05 PM
Still watching this thread, and I have one thing to say to you.
HOLY MACARONI!

You are doing great :thumbsup:

Now for the christ, (so I actually have two things to say): I'd put him on top, so you can have a scene in the movie where the mech charges and you only see the top part, it will look very weird to people but then the camera zooms out..

of course the viewers already have to know about the extreme religion.

DogmaD
09-08-2003, 08:47 PM
:) Its a good idea to put something on top...

I will see if i can move him up, allthough its hard to model him into the design from the top. I somehow like the idea of him hanging under the robot, gives you the feel that he is bearing the cross, like they did in the ( not so good ) old days. Another idea is to but a big, gigantic cross on top of the robot, with all these ropes, wires and parchment ( perkament in dutch, had to look it up :) ) hanging all over the place. Might give it something mystic about it.

Akkalis
09-10-2003, 07:27 AM
I really love that robot thing, really nice design and I love the 'Christ-like-Figure' on it.

As for the face, of I think its the '3rd goodguy' I think you should develope the nose area a little bit more, or maybe its just the nostril hole itself, its really round, unnaturally so. Its something that was pointed out about one of my models recently, so it kind of caught my eye.

And its definately an Anime concept. :)

themonke
09-12-2003, 04:10 PM
Really like the models, but I think the zealot on the machine should be crucified with his palms facing outwards, it just looks strange when his palms are on the cross

my .02$

Neil
09-12-2003, 07:41 PM
argh, you guys are just making suggestions that'll make this model look like every other model on here.
I liked how it looked from the beginning! Nice work.

There really isn't a mouth, i would bring those vertices in deeper.
But please keep your style with this character, b/c it's good.

DogmaD
09-12-2003, 08:42 PM
Thanks for the replies guys! :)

I haven't made any changes to the character in the machine yet, currently i am working on how to have wires running over the model and stuff.

I have placed the palms this way for a reason, he will use his hands to interface with the machine through the cross. So, if i would turn the hands around, it will not give the feel like he has control over the machine, more like he is at the mercy of the machine. The zealot is still in control, he is not a byproduct of the machine, thats why the hands are placed that way. ( makes sense to me, but it could be people would disagree )

About the mouth, you are right, there is some sort of mouth, but not a lot yet, i will look into it when i go over the model for the second time. :)

About the nose in the third character model, i have looked at it, i remember having problems with his nose. Somehow they were hard to get right, but i will look into it.

I will post new images on monday, think i will have some real progress by then. Thanks for the replies all.

DogmaD
09-16-2003, 05:25 PM
Wel i didn't make as much progress as i would have hoped, but it is progress none the less...

overview

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee//rbot4.jpg

closeup

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee//rbot6.jpg

The thing i am currently working on is the clothing of the character, which is really hard, because of the strain on the cloth on this legs. I have a hard time modelling that. So, what should i do, model it, or use a displacement map on a rough model?

I also had a gun, but i didn't like it, so i am going through the best options for the character. Currently, i want to use a gigantic flamethrower. just because in the old days, heretics were burned...:surprised

Oh, another question, are there any plugins handling wire mapping? I want to map all those wires running across the robot. I was hoping there is a plugin available for something like that :)

DogmaD
09-22-2003, 11:08 PM
Hi all!

I have completed the robot character modelling stage. I have posted a screen and a link to a larger image version ( which is pretty large )

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee//rbotgrey4_small.jpg

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee//rbotgrey4_large.jpg

I hope you like it!
Some more info, the flags, wires and cloth are all linked to simcloth, with some wind and maybe later on some counter gravity when he walks, to simulate the mass.

I will now start modelling on the hacker and the rest of the guys.

Razorwolf
09-23-2003, 11:40 AM
Still following this thread.. now it looks perfect. I have no critiques and that's a good thing :). See it as a compliment.

You're going to have a hell of a job skinning it :s

DogmaD
09-23-2003, 04:06 PM
Thanks Razorwolf! :)

Yeah, the mechanical parts won't be that hard to skin, but the problem is the wires running across moving parts like the guns. Those will be tricky!

I won't have to worry about that yet, because i still have a lot of modelling to do. Today i will start on the concept of the hacker. I think it will be a different type of hacker than most people are used to. :) Background on that model coming soon.

Anyway, thanks a lot for the reply and i am glad you like it!

DogmaD
09-27-2003, 09:51 AM
I have started working on the hacker character.

COLOR

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/female3.jpg

SIDE

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/femalewire1.jpg

FRONT

http://home.hccnet.nl/h.legerstee/femalewire2.jpg

I am not happy with it at all at the moment, somehow the face looks a bit flat and generic. Do you guys know a way to give it some more life and character??
I have the feeling the mistakes are around the eyes and maybe in the mouth area, but i can't really pinpoint them and correct it.


Anyway, the background on the character is that its a nomadic ( maybe muslim ) hacker. She is one of the 3 good guys, they picked her up somewhere along a road, when her camel dies or something, i don't know. Why is she a nomad and a hacker, the 2 things don't really mix with the lack of power in the desert and all?? Well, she is a nomadic, because she was so good with computers, she had to go in hiding, she got hunted down for hacking and trying to overthrow the kapitalistic pigs in the usa ( her words not mine ). And some of her far related family took her in , they all died at the hands of the death apostels. She seeks revenge.

I think i have some radical touches in the story, but you guys will get over it, its fiction anyway.

Anyway, i would like comments and critiques on the face, if the current shots are not clear enough, because of the kerchief, just ask me and i will post the view you are looking for. ( is this the right word??? got it out of the dictionary, had doubts between kerchief and turban, somehow turban sounded like it is a male thing... )

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