Mary and Mercy

[SpiritHunter]

Great cartooning!

Only thing I'd say is that I don't know why this girl is being a class 5 clinger, but then again with cartoons you don't need to know, if it makes you smile on first impact you've sold an audience.

The hard work is pretty much over aside from any extra personal decisions, there's technically no error with your linework. Ready for phase 2!

-Davis

[lightcache]

ace! :)

would love to see this taken further, my only weee crit is the green chicks eyeline doesnt look at the other girl, but that may be intentional.
looking good though!

[BretMeasor]

Looks like someone has taken a sip from the love potion. Definite buyer beware; maybe in this case merchant beware.

I think you should take this farther also.

[Lomax]

I guess a little bit of context might've helped - Mercy ("green chick") used to be Mary's adoptive mother, but things... didn't quite work out (nervous breakdown).
Now years later (and thanks to a separation) they have a "Pepe le Pew"-sort of relationship, where Mary is completely oblivious to the fact that Mercy wants nothing to do with her.

[Lomax]

Some inks, done in Expression -
http://www.nyeng.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mary_mercy_wip5.jpg

[SpiritHunter]

I saw your process at your site...wow, vector masks. I don't use Adobe Illustrator, but have you tried it yet? It might save you some time with that-- more drawing and less dragging around points maybe. Amazing CG cartoons by the way.

It's a good piece, do you intend on coloring it?

[Lomax]

I'm not using vector masks on this one...
That piece on my site was a nice experiment, but a tad time-consuming. For this one I'm using expression, since it lets me work with regular stroked bezier curves, and vary the thickness however I wish.
I did give Illustrator a try, but as far as I've seen the only way to vary a line's thickness is to create a custom stroke. :shrug:

I'd like to color this one, but how far I take it is the question. (painting is not one of my strengths)

[SpiritHunter]

That's good, sounds like Expression is the best tool for toons then.

Take a stab at coloring it. Keep it simple, light and shadow, cel-chaded style. Don't spend too much time on it. Bring it back for critique if you like. If you like the colors you picked out then you can render away with more detail.

[Lomax]

The inks are now done, and converted into color masks in Photoshop -
http://www.nyeng.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mary_mercy_wip7.jpg

The few times that I have colored something, I've preferred to color the lines as well. Saving the lines as masks should make it easier to change their colors, if necessary...

[SpiritHunter]

Yea, most cartoons color the lines as well as the interior. Disney did it all the time (before they went 3D that is).

It looks like it's heading in the right direction--now for the plunge. Start painting.

:)

-D

EDIT: In my experience, the line work is the most important thing. If you mess up sketching values or putting in colors, you can always go back to the lines and start over because it's the blueprint, you have a plan. But if you do sloppy line work and render it out, you have to repaint a LOT if you make a mistake. By the time you realize something had gone wrong, you'll have wasted a lot of time undoing the mistakes...plus, it's possible that it had ended up so bad that you had to start the whole thing over from scratch.

So what I'm saying is, since your drawing looks great at this level, a lot of the hard work is over for you.

[Lomax]

And this is the part I dread... I've just never had a head for painting. Flat shading I can handle, but that gets boring after a while.

Flat or fully painted though, better to start simple, like you said -
http://www.nyeng.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mary_mercy_wip8.jpg

[SpiritHunter]

I'm sorry that I've not been able to post sooner, I've been incapacitated with the swine flu this whole week and it hit its peak last night. I slept away the whole day.

I really don't think you give yourself enough credit on your shading instincts. You have a decent intuition for how light works; probably comes from your 3D knowledge--I know that mine came from 3D (I went straight from pencil/charcoal drawing to 3D apps when I was a kid, changed the way I drew forever). I mentally "raytraced" each of my lights, lol :).

Because I think your pic is so fantastic, I went all out and made diagrams (not to imply your image has a ton of problems, you have only a few...it's all to help). I like the background colors, very John K (creator of Ren and Stimpy). In fact you should check out his blog every now and then: http://johnkstuff.blogspot.com/2009/08/will-traditional-cartoon-principles.html Has lots of cartoon stuff, even some tutorials.

It seems you selected the right kind of lighting for your scene, but the problem I am seeing most is that your lighting does not have a consistent falloff on the characters.

This is the lighting setup I'm seeing.

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/Spirit-Hunter/Lights.jpg

1.) The key light in your image is the one that's having the problem. If you look at her face, the key light is more spot on, but if you follow the light down to her legs, it looks like its coming more from the left.

Lighting consistency is probably the most common shading issue I see in the WIP forums-- it mostly comes from two things: one, zooming too far in on an area of your subject while you're working on the basic lighting setup. You work on that one area until it looks right, but you lose sight of how that area fits into the whole, and when you see the end result, there's a hodgepodge of different lighting schemes on a single subject. Two, it comes from the conscious desire to make that one area look as nice as possible with an ideal lighting falloff for that one area, but once again this is done without consideration of the whole. In other words, stay zoomed out, use a big brush and literally block out (chunky, unrefined) the lighting of the image. Only until you've really anchored the basic lighting scheme into place can you start zooming in to hone in the details.

Make sure all your lights are consistent in the direction they're rendered, on all your characters. This may sound limiting, but trust me you have a ton of leeway. You can adjust the falloff, bounce the light, etc, and you can even cheat by putting in indistinct light sources. Use rim lights to really pop your characters out from the background. Not all lights have to be physically accurate, you can cheat a lot really! But there needs to be a unity in your main light source (the key light).

2.) Also, consider light occlusion. This one is not really a problem since this element has a lot of artistic leeway, but take into account which lights can and can't pass through things. For example, if the blue light is coming from the side and to the rear, how would it land on the breast of the nun, since the shoulder and veil would block it? Or, how would the other white rim light land on the sexy girl's lower arm and nose, if her head is in the way to block it?

This issue has a ton of leeway as I said, so it's just to take into consideration as you proceed. You can keep whatever lights you want, use them to communicate the figures, but if something doesn't look right, this might be the issue.

3.) Use a bigger, softer brush. This will just save you time; if you use a small brush to cover large areas, you're just going to burn a lot of time drawing the light and cleaning up the brushwork later. So what if it comes out soft? You can always go in with a smaller brush later.

---
FURTHER TIPS:
There is more to lighting than just "raytracing" out your lights, obviously, and it's about scattering. You may or may not know all about this because of your 3D background. 3D programs gobble up obscene amounts rendering time to calculate this, but a human hand can lay it out in 3 seconds.

1.) Fresnel (frenell) Effect:

When light hits objects at glancing angles before arriving the viewer's eye, it appears stronger and brighter because the light is more focused and gathered.

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/Spirit-Hunter/fresnel.jpg

As the incident angle gets more shallow, the object gets more reflective. Skin is oily, so the fresnel effect is easy to see in daily life, especially on African Americans. The fresnel effect gives the artist the excuse to create random rim lights wherever needed!

2.) Global Illumination:
A. Bounced light- indirect lighting is an excellent way to ground your subject in reality and create interesting effects, such as a single beam of light coming in through a window and scattering to fill up the whole room. An example (ABSOLUTELY NOT A SUGGESTION) of how this would look on your character:
http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/Spirit-Hunter/bounce.jpg

B. Ambient Occlusion- ambient occlusion occurs when there is a lot of light bouncing around in an area, but has trouble getting into tight corners. For example, a sky is like a gigantic dome-shaped ambient light source that hits an object from all sides. Less of this light will enter occluded (blocked) areas, making it darker.
http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/Spirit-Hunter/ao.jpg

Here are examples of your image with the above diagrammed lighting scheme and all of the above included effects:
http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/Spirit-Hunter/sample.jpg ...and some bounce coming off her red shirt: http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/Spirit-Hunter/red-bounce.jpg
---

Lastly, here are some images from a couple of highly esteemed cg painters (one who works at Massive Black, no less) that demonstrate realistically rendering cartoons:

Jason Chan (one of my idols):
http://www.jasonchanart.com/gallery/2006/original/demonhunt/Cassandra_color02.jpg
http://www.jasonchanart.com/gallery/2004/fanart/scghost_big.jpg

Daniela Uhlig
http://artstalker.ru/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/alterego.jpg
http://danielauhlig.cgsociety.org/gallery/600612/ (http://artstalker.ru/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/alterego.jpg)

I really hope this helps. Your cartoon drawing ability is enviable, it would be a shame to skip learning how to do something not nearly as complicated. Once you master painting scattered and direct light in 2D, you have more power than a 3D application in getting out lighting ideas quickly, and ALL of your line drawings you've done up to this point will look even better when painted.

-D

[Hecartha]

Mmmh, I viewed your blog Lomax and I see your process using Expression (especially the part where you are manually changing the thickness of the line)...in fact, I had a doubt after viewing your last image as it seems having been done with a mouse (no expression control over brush size). Forgive me if I am wrong anyway. I am saying that because people can give you advices you will never be able to do without a tablet.
If I am wrong, I could point you a much better program for cartoon work. If I am right, this program will be useless without a tablet.

Now, it is just my personal taste, but lineart + advanced color doesn't really match together especially with this kind of lineart. For now, the choice of color is not the best choice...brrr, this grey. I am talking also about all those colors you used almost just in changing the value, it never works!
Just a suggestion, try to differentiate more the skin of your characters, I am meaning the nun skin is pale (because red hair and surely because she is exposed more to the shininess of god than the shininess of the sun), so make it colder (not blue, but something like a rose).

[Lomax]

SpiritHunter - I hope you're feeling better, now. I'm grateful for all your advice, illustrated or otherwise, but your health comes first. For me a delay in feedback just means I have more time to experiment, either on this or other projects. :)


One thing I forgot to mention is that the background colors are placeholders - they're there to help me figure out the lighting, but I haven't decided whether I'll keep them in the final piece. Part of the problem there is, since the original goal was to just draw the characters, I didn't give any thought at all to a background. The gradients or even a white background could still work if I keep the colors simple and cel-like, but I may have to fill it with something if I start experimenting with more complex shading...


But my biggest problem may be my habit of over-thinking things... like I said before, I don't have much of a head for painting, but I do understand compositing. If I can nail down the lighting, then I can paint each source/bounce as a separate layer or mask, and play with the values until the image looks right. But that's only AFTER I know where the light's going.

At the least, your examples have given me a lot to think about.


Hecartha - the latest images are done in Photoshop (with a tablet), but at a very low resolution, and using the pencil tool instead of the brush. The lower resolution helps me quickly toy with the colors and values, without getting too focused on one area or another. Plus it uses less memory than the full-sized version.

I know what you mean about complex colors and lineart. Fortunately, RGB separation of the lines should help me better isolate the color regions. If I do it right (which I doubt), then I could just turn the lineart off in the final piece.

I'm not quite sure I follow you on the colors, but that's mainly because I barely understand color theory to begin with. You're right about the nun's skin needing to be pale and cold, but the reasons for that are a little different. She may be wearing the clothes, but she's not exactly feeling God's light. But that's a story I'm saving for later...

[SpiritHunter]

Hi Lomax,

Yup I'm feeling better now, just was a long week.

...it is just my personal taste, but lineart + advanced color doesn't really match together especially with this kind of lineart.

I agree with Hecartha to an extent, because it's uncommon, but it's been done successfully before and I don't see anything wrong with it.

http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/Spirit-Hunter/rogerRabbit.jpg

Granted roger rabbit doesn't have variations in line thickness, but they are all colored lines and their shapes are rendered out.

Anyways, I would be grateful if you'd take a minute to critique a work in progress of mine: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=31&t=808489

-D

[Hecartha]

One thing I forgot to mention is that the background colors are placeholders - they're there to help me figure out the lighting, but I haven't decided whether I'll keep them in the final piece.I think the background colors you chose makes you color blind as it is too bright and it is not enough neutral.
Hecartha - the latest images are done in Photoshop (with a tablet), but at a very low resolution, and using the pencil tool instead of the brush. The lower resolution helps me quickly toy with the colors and values, without getting too focused on one area or another. Plus it uses less memory than the full-sized version.Not bad, I was finally successful insulting you in one post writing about mouse work :p My apology, really!

Anyway, don't you think using the pencil as sketch tool will remove any chance to use some more dynamical brush strokes?

I'm not quite sure I follow you on the colors, but that's mainly because I barely understand color theory to begin with.Just to illustrate what I meant...
your choice of colors (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p76/hecartha/Colors.png)
As you can see, there is not any real variation with the hue. Most of beginner with colors think in a simple way, darker color for a darker area, and a brighter color for a brighter area and that gives annoying color scheme and a really flat work.
Just an example (http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p76/hecartha/MaryMercyWip-Lomax.jpg) of what I meant before but that just an example. Maybe you are looking for something more detailed. Now it is your choice to make things more complicated, but you have done a really good job with lineart and I think a good idea may be to not hide it behind too many detail it is why I was writing about simple color.
About the nun and her color skin, I think it can be a good idea to make a character easily identifiable just by the color of her skin just like the silhouette technic makes cartoon character easily identifiable by their silhouette only.

I agree with Hecartha to an extent, because it's uncommon, but it's been done successfully before and I don't see anything wrong with it.I wasn't enough clear in my previous post :)
In fact You posted Jason Chan's art and that does not match with this kind of lineart. I suppose anyway it was just an example of the excellent explanation you have written. Now I don't consider the last photo you posted as a complicated color, that can be a lot more complicated depanding of what is needed. But it is necessary to not use too many details from realistic scene.

@Lomax
I suppose you don't care about what I said about a better program as lot of people want you to use the program they are using because it is the best blabla... BUT I read you are looking for a workflow using one only program and you need a program that can give you control over thickness of the line at any moment so you will be maybe interested.
As I don't want you wasting your time trying something that will fail considering your needs, I will post tomorrow a video that can interest you with a complete work done in this program (painted background+cell characters). It will be like a feature tour so it will take you just 1 minute to know if this program can be something else than crap for you.
Anyways, I would be grateful if you'd take a minute to critique a work in progress of mine: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=31&t=808489Why not, but I need to finish to makes the video Lomax does not want :D

[SpiritHunter]

Hi Hecartha,

Nobody thinks your advice is wrong, so there is no need for the insults. As the forum guidelines propose before posting, please avoid this kind of attitude.

You have valid points regarding the background color scheme. As Lomax says however, they are temporary.

I am interested in seeing this program you are talking about.

I look forward to your critique.

-D

[Lomax]

If he was insulting me, I didn't pick up on it. Though I do think he's severly overestimating my abilities.

Most of beginner with colors think in a simple way, darker color for a darker area

Well, as far as painting goes, I AM a beginner. Painting's just never been my focus, and I think I failed (or just barely passed) every painting class I ever took. Seriously, there are toddlers dabbling with finger-paints that are probably better with color than I am. :P


Right now, I'm not concerned with brush dynamics. I'd rather focus on my light sources, the locations of the shadows and highlights, maybe the warm/cold contrast... basically I'm sketching with color. Once I'm pleased with the 'sketch', then I'll switch to better brushes.


As much as I'd like to use a single program, I think my inking experiments have shown me that one program isn't always the best. Complicating this even further, I'm thinking about painting black & white light masks in Painter, partly because I like its brushes and color mixing more than Photoshop's, but also because I bought it a few years ago, and it gets so little use...

And I'm always willing to learn new tools, it's just that at the moment my plate is a little full - this image has taken on a life of its own, I've got other ideas waiting to be sketched out, things to do in Maya, and I've been thinking of learning Flash... my brain is melting. :P
Because of this, I might end up treating this image like an animation cel - add some simple shadows, call it finished, and move on. I'd still keep working on a more complex version just to learn how to paint, but I don't think it would ever be finished. :shrug:

[Hecartha]

Hi Hecartha,

Nobody thinks your advice is wrong, so there is no need for the insults. As the forum guidelines propose before posting, please avoid this kind of attitude.SpiritHunter, I need to admit I have not any clue what you are talking about! When you said I "need to avoid this kind of attitude", what do you mean? Could you quote where and when I insulted anyone? I was kidding when I talked about insulting Lomax, it was just self derision (maybe it is not the right english word). I really thought a smiley was enough to understand the way you needed to read my post. So please, consider when I was writing I was smiling and maybe any words from my post will have another sense. Hey, I am here from 2003 and as I know, I never insulted anyone since my registration :p
You have valid points regarding the background color scheme. As Lomax says however, they are temporary.And as you probably know, one of the most basic rule is to use a neutral background AS temporary background because it is better for painting the right color and the right lighting! :shrug:
Well, as far as painting goes, I AM a beginner. Painting's just never been my focus, and I think I failed (or just barely passed) every painting class I ever took. Seriously, there are toddlers dabbling with finger-paints that are probably better with color than I am. :Pahaha, and I am sure that will change if you work considering your weakness :)

Ok for the rest of your explanation, so you just want advice about lighting? I am a bit confused now as you are posting in a wip forum. What you said sounds a little bit like you don't really want any advice in any other area because it is not the right moment for learning that. Am I right?

About the program I mentioned, I know most people when I am pointing a new program are really skeptical. So as I am obstinate I will waste my time showing you something that could help you. You are totally free to accept viewing the video I will post later. You can consider someone who did not know you will spend some time to show you something. I wish you have not read my post too seriously :D . So as a cartoon image, you can imagine a will force you to see something even if you don't want...again, self derision :p

[Lomax]

It sounds like some things are being misinterpreted, on all sides...

...so you just want advice about lighting?
I'll accept any advice I can get, but I'd prefer to take things one step at a time. Since I'm not a painter, I'd like to first try out some ideas that make sense to me, have those critiqued, and then move forward. One step at a time. :shrug:


I also have plenty of free time at the moment, so I'd prefer if you just told the name of the program, rather than going through the trouble of making a video. Even if I'm more likely to stick with the software I already own, I'm always willing to try out new tools.

[SpiritHunter]

Oops, it was just a big misunderstanding on my part. My apologies for that statement, I take it back.

I think the background colors you chose makes you color blind...

This was the entry that I misinterpreted. I've not been on these forums for very long and I didn't know it was okay to call another artist "colorblind" or "beginner" as a criticism and not have somebody get pissed, so...my mistake.

Anyway, yes, what was this program called?

[Lomax]

back on topic, here's another quicky, just to see if I have my key light coming from the right direction -
http://www.nyeng.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mary_mercy_wip10b.jpg

[SpiritHunter]

Really gettin' there. Some of the highlight locations need adjusting, but the midtones are mostly correct.

Circled are the areas that match the key light least.
http://i764.photobucket.com/albums/xx287/Spirit-Hunter/key-lite-highlights.jpg

[Lomax]

I'm either going to learn this stuff, or it'll push me to finish and render my other characters in Maya. :p
Anyway, it also looked like the nun needed a bit more attention -
http://www.nyeng.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mary_mercy_wip11.jpg

[Hecartha]

I'll accept any advice I can get, but I'd prefer to take things one step at a time. Since I'm not a painter, I'd like to first try out some ideas that make sense to me, have those critiqued, and then move forward. One step at a time. :shrug:Understood! :D

I also have plenty of free time at the moment, so I'd prefer if you just told the name of the program, rather than going through the trouble of making a video. Even if I'm more likely to stick with the software I already own, I'm always willing to try out new tools.The two videos are online now. In fact, I planned to do them since lot of time, your thread motivated me to record them as it takes so many time to do.
You can see the first video here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbt4q-EU2-c), and the second video there (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JjPscduX8xg).

The name of the program is PaintTool SAI (http://www.systemax.jp/en/sai/) and it is pretty cheap when you know about its power. I bought mine for 34€. The last time I checked, it was something like 50 bucks for you. Unfortunately it is a Windows only program for now. For me, this program is a pure jewel done by a really smart guy. I recommend to see the two videos as if you are not interested in its feature, it will not be necessary to waste more time.

Sorry having been mysterious about this program, but I preferred to post videos before.
Oops, it was just a big misunderstanding on my part. My apologies for that statement, I take it back.



This was the entry that I misinterpreted. I've not been on these forums for very long and I didn't know it was okay to call another artist "colorblind" or "beginner" as a criticism and not have somebody get pissed, so...my mistake.No problem :D
About the beginner word, Lomax is a beginner as digital painter only (or just painter).
Now about colorblind word, I meant everyone is becoming colorblind when they are working with too bright background. As an example, PaintTool SAI is not perfect, you cannot change the grey background color so when you are painting on a dark area at the edge of your work, the program makes me colorblind also. I hope it is more clear now :)
Another issue it does not use color profile for now, as it is the first release...

Back on the topic, I really like how you colored the Hair Lomax.

[CKPinson]

This is really good Lomax- I think it looked better with the lighter background because your outlines are sharper, they kind of appear distorted infront of the grey.

[Lomax]

Hecartha - Looks interesting! I might have to try it out once my other distractions are out of the way. As long as I don't come up with any new distractions to keep me from it. :p

CK - The grey is still temporary, since I haven't figured out just what the background is going to be, yet.

[Lomax]

A whole week's gone by, and the most I've done on this is more light-sketching, this time with the rim lights -
http://www.nyeng.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mary_mercy_wip12.jpg

Between Maya, my animation reel, and other ideas floating around in my head, it's starting to look like this will be another experiment that never gets finished. :shrug:

[lightcache]

no man, it's looking good, stick with it.

[SpiritHunter]

Your rim lights appear to have the correct falloff, good job (if anything, there is a bit missing on the left side of Mercy's veil just next to her head).

Be sure to not make them this bright in the final, in painting in general avoid using perfect white and perfect black in your value range.

Looking good!

[SpiritHunter]

Between Maya, my animation reel, and other ideas floating around in my head, it's starting to look like this will be another experiment that never gets finished. :shrug:

Focus on the showreel. Way more important. I recommend you jot the other ideas down before you lose them, but put them on the shelf.

As for this sketch, I think it'll be a worthy contribution to your portfolio. Background scenery would make it even better, but if you're losing interest then I'd finish it as quickly as possible with what you've got and move on.

[Lomax]

Fortunately my animation reel is more or less finished. As for the other ideas... if only you could see my notes folder, or my piles of index cards... there's a LOT of stuff I keep telling myself I'll get to, eventually. :p

Anyway, here's another quick experiment -
http://www.nyeng.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/mary_mercy_wip13.jpg

For now I'm just toying with the brush settings, to see what works for me.

[SpiritHunter]

I'll say that the shadow that falls on her face from her hair is a bit too diffused for how close the surfaces are to each other-- the neck shadow is a good example of how it should be.

Remember in general: the further away a shadow is cast from an object, the more blurry it'll get, and vice versa.

Otherwise, looking good!

[Lomax]

I think I'm finally starting to move beyond experimenting -
http://www.nyeng.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mary_mercy_wip14.jpg
Though I'm avoiding Mary's face until I build up a little more confidence :p

[SpiritHunter]

Wow, from this one I can tell you're really getting it when it comes to lighting; there's more detail and it all looks correct with respect to the key light (don't get much more detailed though, mind the Uncanny Valley). Looks like you've come a long way in your ability to paint the way light plays off of surfaces.

At this point, I would change the skin tones a bit. Mary's skin tones from before were sexier in my opinion, and were a good contrast to Mercy's as she is stuck in a convent all day and gets no sun. Also, Mercy is angry for sure, but I would tone down her redness just a smidgen. This'll give you a chance to play around with Photoshop's excellent color correction tools!

Mary's face from before was fine except for the soft shadow I talked about earlier. I recommend keeping that version as a starting point if you're stuck.

Which brings up a reminder: be sure you save incrementally. I do it all the time so I can pull out ideas and previous states from earlier versions.

Good job!

[Lomax]

Fortunately I can change the colors of the shadows and highlights at any time, since they're just masked solid color layers.

Mainly I'd be redoing Mary's face, because I feel I handled the layers wrong - the shadows and highlights were separate, with the original flats acting at the midtones. That's one mask too many to keep track of...


Increments are a greate idea, but I always forget it, unless the program has a setting to do it automatically. But many times, like with Mary's face, I'll at least make a copy of the layer or mask, so I can go back to it or use it as a reference.

[prjshiva]

awesome work.....really i appreciate the feedback....i mean even if am not doing the same i understand a lot.....

thanks


----------------------------------------
Project Shiva.
http://projectshiva.wordpress.com/the-art

[Lomax]

A small update, but one of the more difficult parts -

http://www.nyeng.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/mary_mercy_wip15.jpg

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