The big decision

[AdamT]

It depends a lot on what you want to do, e.g., hobbyist, games art, freelance, character animation, etc. I think you'll get better responses if you provide some more info.

[lou.cifer]

Ok. I basically want to do it all. I would like to do TV and film, Build up a strong portfolio, and eventually get into games. I'd like software that can handle anything. There are so many avenues that you can take 3D, I just don't want to be limited.

[Thalaxis]

I find it hard to believe that Cinema would not get you there...
the only thing it doesn't have in its favor really is name
recognition vis a vis Maya and XSI and MAX.

Also, if money is an issue (and you're not a student), Cinema has
an enticing bonus by virtue of being highly modular; you can buy
the base version for $500 (or is it $595?), which is by itself very
powerful. Then you can add stuff to it as budget allows... or if you
are able, you could spring for the XL package, which is in the
LightWave price range, and get a bunch of stuff like Thinking
Particles.

As far as capabilities go, I don't think you'll be disappointed with
Cinema.

And you might also want to have a look at the Cinema r8 books
by Adam Watkins and Arndt von Koenigsmark (I hope I spelled
that correctly)... though Arndt's latest book may not be available
in English, unfortunately.

[MJV]

Originally posted by lou.cifer
Ok. I basically want to do it all. I would like to do TV and film, Build up a strong portfolio, and eventually get into games. I'd like software that can handle anything. There are so many avenues that you can take 3D, I just don't want to be limited.

Cinema is not really suitable for games. If that's a priority for you, I think you'd be better off with Max.

[lou.cifer]

Thanks Thalaxis., MJV.
What makes C4D unsuitable for games?

[LucentDreams]

mostly its lack of exports into game recognised formats, you;ll need a seond app like milkshape, then there is the issue of RTshaders

[ElysiumGX]

I'm in the same boat as you lou.cifer. Hope you've tried the C4D demo.

I'm interested in purchasing Cinema 4D, but my biggest interest is game art. I'm sure I can make game art, but then there's the obstacle of actually getting it in game. I still plan on buying it, hoping for game support soon from Maxon. I'm already sending them emails. If they really want to take some of the market from Max, that's the way to go.

[lou.cifer]

I agree. Max is very arrogant in that They don't offer demos or arn't willing to drop the prices any. Maya Unlimited used to be like 12 grand, now its 7 grand. Talented people are going to get cheaper software and still put out great work. BUT, Max is a great program for gaming. Its a tough choice.

[cookepuss]

Look more carefully. Discreet does offer a demo. They'll send you a CD. I have one. I know.

http://www1.discreet.com/site/promos.nsf/promo?openform&cd3dsmax

The 3dsmax6 demo won't be available until October though.

As for Cinema4d, the poly, UV, & animation tools are all there. The issue of shaders is regrettable, but not life or death. The same thing goes for file formats. It would be nice if the "standard" game files were supported, but I'm sure some intrepid programmer here will write an import/export plugin.

The only big issue is Cinema4d's place in the game market. It's a lesser known name. I don't know of any game developer who currently uses it. Maya & 3dsmax have the jump start on this front.

[JIII]

umm I think ambrosia software uses it.

They make alot of mac games and stuff like that. I know its used cause I who is that thalxis?? that works for them or used to and posts stuff from there games.

That said its not like lucasarts, or bungie or someone like that is usin it.


good luck lucifer how is life in hell jk

[fxgogo]

For me the biggest thing going for C4D above the technical specs is that it has a really stong positive momentum behind it. The company is very customer focused and updates are regular and feature packed. I also feel it is a well written and optimised package. It just leaves me with a positive vibe. Something that the other packages you are looking does not show. That is what made me go for C4D over Lightwave. Good luck with your choice.

[cookepuss]

I'll be honest with you. Maxon has some of the most courteous & personable support staff around. For me, this is a definite plus. Here's my story.

Prior to becoming a C4D user, I owned quite a few 3D packages (3dsmax included). For quite a few years, I was a trueSpace user, having purchased every version since 1.0. Why did I dump trueSpace6 in favor of Cinema4D R8?

tS6 isn't a bad program. It's actually great for sub-$1,000. Sadly, it's buggy & certain features never work as one would expect. However this wasn't my main reason for leaving Caligari's camp. I would've happily worked around the "issues" for a while longer if it hadn't been for......

Support. Caligari's staff treated me like sh** one too many times. Two years ago, I spoke out (no more than others) about how I wished the UNDO feature actually worked. What happened? They banned me from their boards & accused me of pirating every version of trueSpace. Too bad for them that I actually saved my disks & CDs over the years. They "let me off the hook" after I provided them with scans. They even claimed that my ownership wasn't the issue, despite having called me a pirate outright. Okaaaaay.....

A year passed & was reinstated on their boards, despite having done nothing wrong. Everything's going okay. A conversation is started regarding v6.0 bugs, in their bug forum no less. (Oooh) Once again, like an idiot, I bring up the UNDO feature. This time, I'm much more diplomatic. Apparently, Caligari didn't think so. Not only did they threaten to ban me again, but they accused me of piracy again. Great way to treat a customer, eh? :thumbsdow They didn't do anything, other than try to put the fear of God into me, but it was annoying. My opinion is that companies like this don't like people who don't tow the party line.

Mind you, I had spent thousands of dollars on their software over the years. I purchased $1,000+ in plugins, many from Caligari directly. Still, they accused me of something that they knew was false. I'd be far less angry if I knew that the mod was some pimple faced kid. I could excuse that. Unfortunately, their board mod is actually a staffer. How sad is that? Absolutely no tact. That was the last straw for me.

The rest is history. I'm a C4D user and I've never been happier. Maxon's support staff is great. They even called me & asked me if I was enjoying the product. They happily asked for my input. Maxon cares and they listen. Few companies can claim this. I feel that this is part of the reason why C4D has evolved so quickly. Their support staff isn't composed of mindless drones, but actual people.

Take that into consideration. You probably won't find a support staff like Maxon's anywhere else in the biz. :thumbsup:

[wuensch]

--wow-- this is the most disturbing "support" story I have ever heard before--- All because you requested a working UNDO--

My "Hard to believe but true" story is a Macromedia story:
Freehand 10, mac version (updated from 5.5 because):
Wow, now it can do books-- simply paste your text into the pages and Freehand will distribute it over the pages inside the text-blocks---- wait:
page 81 or more and it all goes berzerk--
practically destroying the work--Oh nooo
call support, tell them about the bug--
"Yeah, we know the problem!"
"good-when will it be fixed?"
"Fixed? no , we are not planning to do something, after all Freehand was not made to make books with it."
"??? you are kidding--its a new feature, and Freehand is a professional app, isnt it?"
"Its not on our priority list, why dont you use Quark Express."
"Because I dont have it and its %& expensive (not from Macromedia btw.), I have Freehand 10, its supposed to be able to deal with large texts--"
"Oh, we cannot help! Bye."
"Oh--Bye"

That was a year ago, hope they have humbled down a bit (no bugfix yet, by the way- we did the book with the help of a friend who has Quark-Express.Left me wonder that in times where computers can play entire movies and virtual worls--whats so hard to program a simple text-engine capable of layouting a book--- Pagemaker could do that eons ago.) ).

Olli

[cookepuss]

If you think my horror story was unique, the same exact thing happened to 2 other people that same week. In fact, the e-mail rant was a form letter. (I know because I saw the e-mail these other guys got.)

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by JIII
umm I think ambrosia software uses it.

They make alot of mac games and stuff like that. I know its used cause I who is that thalxis?? that works for them or used to and posts stuff from there games.

No, I work in the defense industry... which I often regret, but
with the recession...

[cookepuss]

Think about it this way. It could alway be worse. I know a PR person at Phillip Morris. Nothing worse than selling your soul for a paycheck & a 401k. :p

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by cookepuss
If you think my horror story was unique, the same exact thing happened to 2 other people that same week. In fact, the e-mail rant was a form letter. (I know because I saw the e-mail these other guys got.)

I know a few others who had similar experiences, some of whom
were very talented (one of them Arnold Callardo, who wrote a
good book on lighting and rendering).

Sounds like the Hash syndrome, to me.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Thalaxis
I know a few others who had similar experiences, some of whom
were very talented (one of them Arnold Callardo, who wrote a
good book on lighting and rendering).

Sounds like the Hash syndrome, to me.

Hehe, and another one was me! They didn't accuse me of piracy, but they did boot me from their forums and mailing list because--heaven forbid--I pointed out some of the thousands of crash-inducing bugs endemic to that wretched software.

[artemesia66]

medula works at ambrosia. he's not around here all the time, but i'm sure you could email him re: games and c4d.

[JIII]

well I know somebody here does dangit.

They post things every once in a while can't remember there exact s/n though grrr.... might have started with an M or maybe a T or something grrrrrr.....

[Thalaxis]

Originally posted by AdamT
Hehe, and another one was me! They didn't accuse me of piracy, but they did boot me from their forums and mailing list because--heaven forbid--I pointed out some of the thousands of crash-inducing bugs endemic to that wretched software.

Two of their beta testers that I knew chose to stop beta testing
their stuff because the only people that Roman Ormandy seemed
to be listening to were the ones who praised everything about
trueSpace, and not the ones with suggestions and bug reports.

They probably don't have much of a future left (they being Hash
and Caligari).

[CosmicBear]

Originally posted by Thalaxis
They probably don't have much of a future left (they being Hash
and Caligari).

here's a Hash-victim. got kicked off the mailing list, because i agreed with someone about v9.5 not being that stable... :shrug:

b2t:

i think, as far as game-art goes, cinema is (unfortunatly) not the app for you guys. i've talked to a couple of people, who are in the industrie and they said, if they get two appications they will hire the person, who knows the app they are using. it's just faster and easier to include someone into the work-scheduale.

but besides the game-issue with cinema you can find cinema in alot of different enviroments, like film, tv, fx, illustration, etc.

and the truth is, cinema is way easier to learn than any other app. and if you know your way around in cinema, it actually becomes easier to learn other apps (at least, that's what i like to think - struggeling with maya atm)

[AdamT]

Originally posted by Thalaxis
Two of their beta testers that I knew chose to stop beta testing
their stuff because the only people that Roman Ormandy seemed
to be listening to were the ones who praised everything about
trueSpace, and not the ones with suggestions and bug reports.

They probably don't have much of a future left (they being Hash
and Caligari).
Yep, Roman's a nice guy, but not a good listener. I actually had dinner with him (and a bunch of other people) at Siggraph a few years ago.

The silliest thing is that Caligari's beta team is now composed of anyone who wants to pay an annual subscription fee for their "Pro Team". The main benefit of the Pro Team is a bunch of instructional materials and free models/textures. So in essence, their beta team is composed of users who are so inexperienced that they choose to spend hundreds of dollars a year on trueSpace training materials. :)

[cookepuss]

Adam, I'm going to take a stab in the dark here. Your last name wouldn't by any chance be Trachtenberg would it? If so, you and I got the boot from Caligari around the same time. I never really got along with Norm. :shrug:

~~Rob Santa~~

[Thalaxis]

Small world, eh?

I've been a long-time LightWave fan, but sometime between the
releases of Cinema 8.1 and now, I sat down and decided to just
stick with Cinema for a bit, rather than going back to LW all the
time for modelling... and now I'm glad I did. I still like LightWave a
lot, but the Cinema UI has been growing on me for quite a while
now, and the inclusion of XPresso and Thinking Particles put me
over the top, so I'm feeling pretty jazzed about it now.

Most of my plugin purchases lately have been for Cinema rather
than for LW, given choice and interest. :)

BTW, it seems to me that BodyPaint2 ought to help get Maxon
into the games industry; good UV mapping tools are very valuable
in that segment, as are good texture maps, and BodyPaint2's
integration with non-Maxon software allows it to fit in with more
existing pipelines by way of data sharing.

FBX support certainly won't hurt in that regard, either.

I figure it's very likely that Maxon will head in the direction of
adding features oriented towards game development in the
future, since it's getting to be such a large and lucrative industry
now.

[AdamT]

Originally posted by cookepuss
Adam, I'm going to take a stab in the dark here. Your last name wouldn't by any chance be Trachtenberg would it? If so, you and I got the boot from Caligari around the same time. I never really got along with Norm. :shrug:

~~Rob Santa~~
Yep, Trachtenberg it is. I sent you a PM, but you must not have notification turned on.

And Norm is a complete a-hole as far as I'm concerned.

Don't know if you caught my post on PF, but I thought your CG-Channel review of Cinema was excellent.

[cookepuss]

I must've turned off notification by accident. :p It's on now.

As for Postforum, I read that post. I registered my cookepuss nick over there too just to avoid the anonymous posts. Thanks for reading my review, which was InsideCG btw. The program was fun to review and even more fun to use. I enjoy it thoroughly. So much so that I'm going to dump some more cash into buying Shave2 & BP2 in a couple of weeks. It's a great program. I can't imagine using anything else now. Maxon spoils its customers rotten. :)

Yeah, Norm is an a-hole. I was just being polite. :applause:

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