A Disappointing Conversation with Autodesk

[3DDave]

They could ask you to send them the dongle. Anything before V6 had dongles except the foundation licenses.

[zaam]

I would be happy to send the dongle, along with documentation — and I offered to do just that. The rep was pretty firm, however that AD (in his view) would not offer me an upgrade. I do believe it's a matter of who you talk to most of the time. I'm not giving up on it yet. It just sort of bummed me out to feel like a customer that was simply left hanging.

Thanks for your input.

[adrencg]

I'm no expert on business, but treating your customers like little peons is not something you should do, if you'd like longevity.

When a customer asks for something, you should be more than willing to bend backwards and go out of your way to help them.

[3DDave]

I'm no expert on business, but treating your customers like little peons is not something you should do, if you'd like longevity.

When a customer asks for something, you should be more than willing to bend backwards and go out of your way to help them.

I agree, unfortunately that's not how AD thinks; more like it's the AD way or the highway!

[danlefeb]

Autodesk has no plans to offer upgrades to anyone with versions prior to 5.x, and the apparent reason is rather bizarre. According to my rep, Autodesk blames AVID for poor record keeping and for being somewhat uncooperative during the transition.

I'm more inclined to think its an Autodesk thing. When I tried to upgrade my Alias Maya 7.0 license, I was told something similar. They didn't blame Alias for poor record keeping, but basically I was told that I had to buy a new license for Maya 2009 because they didn't support Alias software anymore.

Alias Maya 7 was released in Aug. 2005 (http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/Maya#Version_release_history). When did Softimage v5 come out - it was relatively comparable in time frame wasn't it?

[luceric]

Alias Maya 7 was released in Aug. 2005 (http://wiki.cgsociety.org/index.php/Maya#Version_release_history). When did Softimage v5 come out - it was relatively comparable in time frame wasn't it?
sounds like the original poster had XSI 4.x, which shipped in 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Softimage_%28company%29)
So if he purchased XSI 3.5 and got an upgrade through maintenance, that would have been in 2003

[danlefeb]

Ah, OK. You're right, v4 my bad. I read it wrong. Six years is a long time. I guess technically if the ability to upgrade the license is based off the originally purchased license, mine wouldn't have been Maya 7, it would have been Maya 6. So May 2004.

Personally, I don't think its unreasonable for Autodesk to require a full license purchase after such a long time. There comes a point when an upgrade would probably cost more than a full license anyway. Other software companies do the same thing...but blaming it on faulty records is a little strange.

[Jettatore]

I personally think that it is completely unreasonable to expect someone to buy an entirely new license after only 6 years. That is expecting someone to entirely re-purchase many of the same tools he already paid thousands for, just to get refinements and the completely new stuff.

[TheRazorsEdge]

That's just how AD apparently handles things. If I am not mistaken, they close the door on upgrading after just 2 versions/3 years on current releases, unless they offer a special deal. Hence ie Maya 8 can now no longer regularely be upgraded to Maya 2010.

I wont comment how I feel about this, but that's just the way they currently handle upgrades.

Cheers!

[mocaw]

Maybe I'm wrong, but the only company I know that might honor such up grades would be NT. There maybe some companies that throw you a bone in such cases...but often that bone is excruciatingly small.

Your best bet for the time being would be to look and see if there are any deals on products offered later (like the 5.x release cycle) and try and purchase said copy off someone else to receive the discount.

Personally I feel mixed on this issue. I don't agree that anyone should ever bend over backwards for anyone else though. That's just passing the buck from one party to the other. Compromise may not leave either party dancing in the streets, but I think it's better over all.

If I "bent over" for all my clients I'd be making less than someone flipping burgers. Be realistic, fair, and hold your ground IMHO. Here it's a little gray though, but still- 3.x is a really old release when the latest is going to be v. 8.

[3dtutorial]

That's just how AD apparently handles things. If I am not mistaken, they close the door on upgrading after just 2 versions/3 years on current releases, unless they offer a special deal. Hence ie Maya 8 can now no longer regularely be upgraded to Maya 2010.

I wont comment how I feel about this, but that's just the way they currently handle upgrades.

Cheers!


This is exactly correct.

I've had an Autodesk 3ds Max license since v1.0 and over in the many years since then I've let my subscription lapse a few times. On a few occasions I let a few full versions slip by and what was the result? Well, had to stump a whole lot of cash plus pay the cost of subscription -- ouch! Trust me, I was not happy about it either, but when you deal with the world of Autodesk, that is just how things play out.

The moral of this story is that if you want to use Autodesk software and wish to keep your costs down then your best option is to stay on and pay the annual subscription cost (which I'm guessing is why they have such a business model in the first place). If you allow your subcription to lapse and you fall behind you will really be in store for a whole lot of hurt in the wallet (as you've learned).

Like other people of have said, not too many other software companies would allow you to upgrade at a substantially reduced cost after several years time either. I also own a seat of Lightwave and NT is the only company that seems to have a really relaxed licensing model over the years, but it seems to be the exception rather than the rule.

So yes, I feel your pain and I don't like it either but it seems to be the cost of doing business with people such as Autodesk.

Cheers,

J

[zaam]

Actually, I do understand from a developer's perspective the fact that owners of older versions haven't done much to fund recent R&D efforts. Again, if my rep had quoted me a high cost to upgrade, I could have been OK with that. Disappointed, but OK. But offering no path whatsoever, and for such an absurd reason — that's beyond me.

Look at this from a business perspective. A customer drops around $6-7K on your premium offering and you fail to even recognize their license and offer a "token" discount on an upgrade — that customer has a bad feeling going forward. In my case, I might represent future income for AD with upgrades and possibly maintenance — OR I might bug off entirely and never give them another $. Why would a business model even want to risk the second option? Until there is a valid competitor in the market, AD can bank on the likelihood that we need their offerings badly enough to comply.

Incidentally, on the issue of buying a recent version from another user and upgrading that — I did mention it to my rep, since there was a version 6.5 for sale here on the forum at that time. He said explicitly that I could not be guaranteed a license transfer or an upgrade from a product purchased from an individual. Maybe he just wanted me to buy a new copy, or maybe that's official AD policy. Can't answer that.

[zaam]

One more thought here. I also do a lot of print work. Quark XPress used to be the choice of virtually all "real" designers. I had a conversation with their customer service once that made me vow to adopt another solution as soon as it became viable. Speaking to other designers, I was amazed at the number of people who shared my experience (and my reaction).

By the third version of InDesign, the market had a true competitor. I switched and never looked back. Take a look at market share today. Adobe has a great product, but that alone was not the reason for the migration of a lot of users.

[adrencg]

One more thought here. I also do a lot of print work. Quark XPress used to be the choice of virtually all "real" designers. I had a conversation with their customer service once that made me vow to adopt another solution as soon as it became viable. Speaking to other designers, I was amazed at the number of people who shared my experience (and my reaction).

By the third version of InDesign, the market had a true competitor. I switched and never looked back. Take a look at market share today. Adobe has a great product, but that alone was not the reason for the migration of a lot of users.

This is true. Complacency and arrogance will drive your company into the ground eventually, no matter how entrenched -- except in the case of Microsoft.

[eldee]

except in the case of Microsoft.
not to divert, but some would argue that they almost killed themselves twice. Windows ME and Windows Vista. Both times though, they responded to overwhelming user feedback and pulled the nose up before they hit the ground ;)

[Jettatore]

Yeah I'm going to have to agree with the above. MS has made mistakes but they work very hard to fix them and I'm very much looking forward to having Windows 7 on my machine.

[jasonio]

yeah, windows 7 is a good platform. I've preordered because they even did something I was hoping they'd do: offer it for less than a 100 quid for a limited time.

So anyway, subscription. I spoke to my UK reseller and you have a year within which you can buy subscription after the previous year ends, after that, you have to upgrade. Upgrades are more than twice the price of one years subscription, so it actually is cost beneficial to buy subscription even a year late.

If you do buy subscription late you have to backdate it to the end of the last subscription. But this is not that different from how SI used to do it. All software needs the support of people paying subscription. Especially now that selling a new copy probably doesn't even pay one developer a single months salary. In the long run, subscription is still much cheaper than waiting for a few versions and then upgrading.

[luceric]

If you want to save money, one thing you could do is go for the standard Softimage 2010, which is 2995$, as it has all the same features of Advanced (4695$). The yearly subscription will be also be cheaper (http://pressreleases.autodesk.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=617). The difference with Advance are extra batch licenses. Best talk to your reseller about this.

[R10k]

This is true. Complacency and arrogance will drive your company into the ground eventually, no matter how entrenched

That's what I wonder about- why the guys over at AD HQ haven't worked this very simple principle, yet.

[zaam]

If you want to save money, one thing you could do is go for the standard Softimage 2010, which is 2995$, as it has all the same features of Advanced (4695$). The yearly subscription will be also be cheaper (http://pressreleases.autodesk.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=617). The difference with Advance are extra batch licenses. Best talk to your reseller about this.

That would seem to be just about the only sensible route.

It will be interesting to see, though, when 2010 ships — if AD does another upgrade offer for older versions and only offers back through V5x. That would lend support to the "lost records" theory my rep referred to. If that's indeed the case, users of versions prior to 5x lose out on an opportunity for the worst of reasons.

[Jettatore]

You guys do realize that we are being lead through this like sheep across the same line of thinking.

"Anything other than subscription is a waste of money..."

Subscription itself is not a good deal, the only reason it looks like a good deal is because it hangs around with even fatter options to make itself look skinny.

[toonafish]

That's what I wonder about- why the guys over at AD HQ haven't worked this very simple principle, yet.

That's because AD is not about happy customers or decent business ethics, it's about decent profits and happy shareholders. And unfortunately enough, that's how a company flourishes.

Besides that, I think it is not true. We tell each other bedtime stories about good ethics and honesty always winning in the end, but that is just wishful thinking, it's not how this crazy anthill works. The universe is indifferent.

[R10k]

There are different ways for companies to thrive, and a few of them don't result in a ton of missed sale opportunities and bad publicity. Sure, the AD anthill grows, but not as it could have.

[SimonJMNH]

I would like to know if anyone can remember the original (non-maintenace) upgrade price on version 4.2 Advanced because if I remeber correcty it was between $3500.00 and $4000.00
advanced after the 3democracy deductions was sold for $6999.00.

so wouldn't and upgrade form version 4.2 cost more than a new licence.

I'm confused why would someone insist on an upgrage when it would probably cost more than a new licence or should he get a discount for not upgrading his 4.2 version?

simon

[Letterbox]

Ok, this just sounds like another bash AD thread...

But lets be honest... the dude got xsi in 2003... Seven years ago...

Look at whats happened in pc advancement in those 7 years, what was state of the art then p2? p3? 512m? maybe dvd?

What about the advances in xsi in seven years??

Somewhere any company has to say... any older than this, with respect to upgrades...its game over.

Cheers
Terry

[Jettatore]

I respectfully disagree with the above. Even if it's only a token gesture, they could give him a few hundred bucks off. That's not really a lot to ask for someone who invested $3,000 or better into the development funds of the software 7 years ago. Plus if they don't throw him a bone, he may decide to go elsewhere, and unfortunately, the competition is Blender (http://www.blender.org) which is quite capable at this point, albeit not really in Soft's league, it's getting there fast and it's completely free.

The point being, if they keep alienating users across their 3 isolated user-bases, people will start to like the idea of free and non-AD, open source software a whole lot more. You get enough artists doing that and studios might start adopting it as well. It's great for us, but it's not great for Autodesk, so they should really consider offering something, even if it's small by comparison.

Think about it, if someone gets frustrated with Max or Maya, they might switch to Softimage, or vice versa. But if they get frustrated with Autodesk, they aren't going to switch to any of those options....

[R10k]

Yeah, I'm not sure I'd want to move from an advanced version of Soft (or XSI) to Blender. Blender has some nice features, but it's not exactly a reliable production tool, with any kind of solid support.

As much as I think it'd be a healthy thing for AD to to give people more than the company line (hint hint), Letterbox's point is a fair one.

[Jettatore]

I completely agree with you. Other than Houdini and maybe Cinema 4D though, it's one of the only other alternatives to Autodesk and it is quite capable of producing high quality animations in the right hands. You also have to consider, how far and fast that software has come over the last year or two and it just seems the development gets faster and faster by the day. I use and love Softimage myself, and I don't use Blender currently at all, however I have been following it's development closely and unless something quite major happens with the commercial apps it will fully catch up in functionality and capability relatively soon, I'm quite convinced of that.

I'm not really trying to talk about another software here, just pointing out, that if you alienate customers, there going to look at alternatives. You really, don't even want to give them a chance to do that though, you want them to stay right where they are, regardless if they are on maintenance or just upgrade once every 7 years.

[zaam]

Ok, this just sounds like another bash AD thread...

But lets be honest... the dude got xsi in 2003... Seven years ago...

Look at whats happened in pc advancement in those 7 years, what was state of the art then p2? p3? 512m? maybe dvd?

What about the advances in xsi in seven years??

Somewhere any company has to say... any older than this, with respect to upgrades...its game over.

Cheers
Terry

A couple of points from The Dude —

This was not intended to be another bashing of Autodesk. That turf's been covered well enough already.

Second, the last current registration I had was five years ago (not seven), which is indeed a long time in the perspective of development cycles; but upgrades are often offered to older versions because it makes sense for the company to get users back in the fold and get them spending money again. One such upgrade ran at the first half of this year, in fact, and I would not be surprised to see another when 2010 is released. My beef is that I am being told that upgrades are not possible NOT because my version is too old, but because AD couldn't find a way to get records from AVID that would validate my ownership, along with anyone else holding a pre-V5 license.

Look, I have no delusions that AD (or any other company for that matter) does what they do for our benefit. They are in business to make money. I have no problem with that.

There is a constantly shifting balance every company faces between the interests of customers and the interest of near-term profitability. Neither can be excluded if the company ultimately wants to thrive; but in an environment where competition is lacking, the focus tends to shift away from the customers best interests simply because it CAN.

That's my bigger point here. The degree to which companies value customer loyalty often relates directly to the amount of choice customers have in the market. We happen to be in a market where choices are diminishing, and my recent experience with AD reflects that.

The Dude Abides.

[R10k]

...however I have been following it's development closely and unless something quite major happens with the commercial apps it will fully catch up in functionality and capability relatively soon, I'm quite convinced of that.

True, but as we all know, features aren't always the key reasons to use an app :)

[Jettatore]

Yeah, I never said anything about features. I said functionality and capability, and believe it or not, it's there and shaping up fast, including support for external rendering solutions. My point was, Autodesk could throw the guy at least a few hundred bucks for a discount so long as he can prove he 'possesses' a legal copy of Softimage, regardless if they lost his records or not. Autodesk's attitude in here, seems to be, yeah that's way old man... And I don't think that kind of attitude from a company, is going to serve them that well in the long run.

So, original poster, did you try contacting a rep at Autodesk yet? Skip the reseller middle man and go straight to the source, see if they can do something for you. I would honestly be suprised if they didn't accomodate you in some way, they want your buisiness after all, and it's worth a shot.

[adrencg]

A couple of points from The Dude —



Look, I have no delusions that AD (or any other company for that matter) does what they do for our benefit. They are in business to make money. I have no problem with that.



True, but in the long run you won't make money by hanging your customers by their ankles and shaking them to see what falls out.

Not being at least semi- accommodating to customers, and just being a giant uncaring behemoth that has a "my way of the highway" attitude will eventually be a bite in the ass for AD.

Jettatore's comment about how after AD sucked up all three big softwares, alienated customers will turn to an entire other company(not just another AD package) is the truth.

Also, there's no statute of limitations on customer courtesy. 2 years, 7 years, what's the difference?

[zaam]

So, original poster, did you try contacting a rep at Autodesk yet? Skip the reseller middle man and go straight to the source, see if they can do something for you. I would honestly be suprised if they didn't accomodate you in some way, they want your buisiness after all, and it's worth a shot.

I'll definitely contact Autodesk directly. I expect that a good time to do that would be when 2010 is ready to drop.

[Jettatore]

Cool, let us know how that goes. I don't really see any reason to wait though, just tell them you want to upgrade to 2010, tell them your situation ahead of time and ask them what they may be able to do for you. And most of all, good luck "Dude" I hope it goes well for you.

[R10k]

Yeah, I never said anything about features. I said functionality and capability...

Right you are, my mistake. I've had so many people harp on about Blender's features recently I'm still stuck in that mode ;)

[Letterbox]

Dude (zaam)

I just somehow dont think people see this...

what I think went wrong, is that both You and Autodesk made a mistake.

If you ask Ford for a discount, they will say NO. If you ask the dealer, well lets be honest, they are much much more likely to be flexible. After all they are the ones seeing a sale walk out the door.

So I think you shouldn't have asked at the show, I also think the reply shouldnt have been the stock line, but rather, "dude" see the dealer, thats where your best chance for the discount lays.

Because if you took the box into the dealer, and said i want to upgrade, in this economy, I think they would have probably eaten the token couple of hundred. Rather than have you walk.


Also does anyone realise that do accept dongles posted in, erm...who's going to deal with that, support? I think they have enough on their plate.

So you hire someone? how much is that going to cost? By the time you do the math its not worth it. Sorry to be the bean counter... but reality check.

I think AD have better things to spend the money on, like the perf gains in 2010. but they also have to think about getting the app new physx, hair, and a "fully" multithreaded app,

Those things will keep customers... and make new ones.

Cheers
Terry (a dude too)

[zaam]

Cool, let us know how that goes. I don't really see any reason to wait though, just tell them you want to upgrade to 2010, tell them your situation ahead of time and ask them what they may be able to do for you. And most of all, good luck "Dude" I hope it goes well for you.

Ya, but the thing is AD might be running a promotion around the release date that makes it easier for them to do a deal. I may give them a buzz just to feel things out sooner, though.

On the issue of Blender —
They had a nice presence at Siggraph. It was an ambitious undertaking from the start, and while it might not be production ready, it definitely has time on its side.

On the issue of alternatives —
I'm not ready to jump on the Maxon bandwagon just yet. The only other option at the moment is Lightwave, which is quite solid from a production standpoint, but limited in many ways. For a number of projects it's a great solutionm though. NT is trying to reinvent themselves with CORE in a very tough market. I truly wish them luck and will gladly support their efforts for a nominal $500 a year, but it could be some time before they have a mature product. I hope they are able to hold on financially until that happens.

On Soft 2010 —
I had a pretty good look at the product at Siggraph. If you only check feature lists the upgrade may fail to impress; if you value speed and functionality you will find it more than worthwhile. Although I am not that thrilled with AD right now, I'll be the first to concede that there are at least some benefits associated with the aquisition of XSI. There is a good chance that Soft will find its way into a lot more schools now that it's part of the AD "family", and that could be very good for a larger user base down the line.

[zaam]

Dude (zaam)

If you ask Ford for a discount, they will say NO. If you ask the dealer, well lets be honest, they are much much more likely to be flexible. After all they are the ones seeing a sale walk out the door.

So I think you shouldn't have asked at the show, I also think the reply shouldnt have been the stock line, but rather, "dude" see the dealer, thats where your best chance for the discount lays.

Because if you took the box into the dealer, and said i want to upgrade, in this economy, I think they would have probably eaten the token couple of hundred. Rather than have you walk.



Perhaps I was not clear.

Actually, the person I spoke with at the show was Mark, the Product Evangelist. He was very gracious with his time and our conversation was about the future of the product (which looks bright), not my upgrade situation.

My follow up conversation where I got "the news" was with my regional sales rep.

[luceric]

Blender is a little off-topic. The original poster already has a 3D software. The point of wanting to catch up with Softimage 2010 is the benefit from the multi-core power of ICE and the scalability enhancements, which you don't have anywhere else. If you're a freelancer, and depending on where you live, don't forget to ask tax adviser if you could tax-deduct the software and subscription, if you aren't already.

[zaam]

Blender is a little off-topic. The original poster already has a 3D software. The point of wanting to catch up with Softimage 2010 is the benefit from the multi-core power of ICE and the scalability enhancements, which you don't have anywhere else.

Exactly. I have other tools at my disposal. I happen to like what Softimage offers.

[Letterbox]

Look I understand what your saying, and I do sympathize.

I just see AD as a corporate entity, that is like all others Ford, MS, etc.

And in that vein, those corporates, always seem to place any flexibility in pricing, promo's, cashback's etc at the dealer level. It's not the old SI anymore.

So i think the job is, for you, to find where the real 'flexibility' in the system is...and squeeze :-)

Once you do... please post it up...lol (save us all).

Good luck dude :-)

Cheers
Terry

[Jettatore]

Blender is a little off-topic.... The point of wanting to catch up with Softimage 2010 is the benefit from the multi-core power of ICE and the scalability enhancements, which you don't have anywhere else.

Blender supports multiple cores :rolleyes:

No ICE though :( Which is one of the many reasons I love my Softimage license(s) plural..

[ajcgi]

I took advantage of the upgrade offered when 7 had come out shortly before Autodesk took hold. I got my 4.2Fnd licence upgraded to 7 essentials for 580quid or thereabouts. It was a great deal and made me feel really positive about sticking with Softimage. I'm surprised Autodesk aren't offering something like that. At the time I upgraded, 4.2 was old too.

[Letterbox]

Blender supports multiple cores :rolleyes:

No ICE though :( Which is one of the many reasons I love my Softimage license(s) plural..

Since you went off topic with Blender...lets follow that up for a moment...

I downloaded Blender 2.49.

loaded a 250,000 poly sphere, selected poly's then bevel.
a) it used ONE core.
b) then it crashed.

SI
loaded a 250,000 poly sphere, selected poly's then bevel.
a) it used ONE core.
b) it worked.

and that's from a real pre-production test we are doing right now. Except the final sphere is 9m polys.

Cheers
Terry


PS Real sorry to go off-topic but I want real facts not marketing hype or assumptions. I am sure others do too.

PPS Can we go back to the real topic of what we can do to help this bloke upgraded :-)

PM me if you need the sphere ... lol

[Jettatore]

Actually. I brought it up quickly and succinctly as a talking point regarding where the only competition for Autodesk's borderline illegal monopoly really lay in the future. Feel free to re-read the thread -in it's entirety- to see how the actual point was brought up and how the focus was missed and derailed.

As far as your issues with crashing and beveling, you should take them to the Blender support forum, I'm sure they would be glad to help you. And if you think Blender isn't capable of studio level work then go check out the short movies made with it right on their website because that really is completely off topic here.

[Jettatore]

If you genuinely would like an opportunity to get things 100% back on topic, I'll try to help....

Is there there an upgrade path for this guy and how would he go about it?

Should there be an upgrade path for this guy, or is he considered a dead limb at this point?

What's his best approach to getting some kind of discount.

What are his actual options in terms of obtaining new tools of some sort.

What are the pro's and con's of the above options.

-There, hope that helps.

[3dtutorial]

I fail to see why this guy should be offered any discount or "rewarded" for not doing as others have been advised to do and simply taking advantage of the subscription program. In case you are unaware, even Avid/Softimage had a policy where if you ignored the annual subscription fee and then wanted to hop back on it later you could, however, you would be forced to pay the fees for all the years that you missed, so depending upon how long you were off the plan you could easily find yourself in a situation where the cost of getting back on again would be equal to the cost of the software itself.

I would be willing to bet that Autodesk would not be too keen to offer any sort of a discount under these circumstances. Why? Because it would set a bad precedent, how do you think all the rest of us who have been paying their subscription fees on a yearly basis would feel about it... not too happy I assure you.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think this policy is necessarily a good one and I'm not fond of it either, but it is what it is. Autodesk makes their upgrade and subscription policy very clear so you can either choose to play by the rules that they set out, or take the consequences.

I'm sorry to say that I don't have a whole lot of empathy, simply because I have had to pay Autodesk many thousands in back fees to get back on support/subscription and frankly I don't see why someone should be rewarded for their own apathy.


J


If you genuinely would like an opportunity to get things 100% back on topic, I'll try to help....

Is there there an upgrade path for this guy and how would he go about it?

Should there be an upgrade path for this guy, or is he considered a dead limb at this point?

What's his best approach to getting some kind of discount.

What are his actual options in terms of obtaining new tools of some sort.

What are the pro's and con's of the above options.

-There, hope that helps.

[zaam]

I think we're a bit off track here.

First off, I have no problem with the "mandatory subscription" policy if it is clearly stated and evenly applied. Joseph, I understand that you have played by those rules and maintained your licenses accordingly. This was the policy with Alias and Soft even before AD got in the game. I have no problem with it. However, the policy has been anything but black and white over the years, with special promos, amnesty programs crossgrades, etc . . . happening with a certain degree of regularity.

History suggests that we have not seen the last of these promos, and my beef is that when one arises, I am out of the loop because AD claims AVID did such a poor job of record keeping that it was not worth their (AD's) time to pursue the matter beyond v5. That's all I am saying. According to AD, I am not a customer. If records had been easier for AD to obtain, I would be a customer. The ball was dropped.

As for "setting a bad precedent", offering someone in my position a current upgrade happens through these programs all the time. You and I both know that it's pointless to anguish over the fact that we pay a significant amount for something others might get at pennies on the dollar during some promo down the road. I understand your point, but the way the system works, you paid subscription all these years because it represented value to you. Hopefully, you received value in return for what you paid. That's the equation. period. If it upsets you or other subscribers that someone else can grab a $500 copy of Foundation and upgrade it on the cheap, you might need to remind yourself that the only pertinent question we can ask ourselves is whether or not our particular expenditure provided us with an adequate return. When I purchased an Advanced license, I did so because there as no other way to get cloth or hair (no need for the extra render nodes). Essentials came to have the same features later on, with a lower upgrade/maintenance cost. For me to resent other users for getting an equivalent (and more cost effective) product to my own through cheaper means would be absurd.

I have a small studio. I watch my budget carefully, and the fact that I have used the same version for five years is not a matter of "apathy". I am not seeking a reward for my complacency. I just don't like falling through the cracks.

I do not view Autodesk as the evil empire. I do, however think that diminishing competition is not good for customers.

[3dtutorial]

I think we're a bit off track here.

First off, I have no problem with the "mandatory subscription" policy if it is clearly stated and evenly applied. Joseph, I understand that you have played by those rules and maintained your licenses accordingly. This was the policy with Alias even before AD got in the game. I have no problem with it. However, the policy has been anything but black and white over the years, with special promos, amnesty programs crossgrades, etc . . . happening with a certain degree of regularity.

History suggests that we have not seen the last of these promos, and my beef is that when one arises, I am out of the loop because AD claims AVID did such a poor job of record keeping that it was not worth their (AD's) time to pursue the matter beyond v5. That's all I am saying. According to AD, I am not a customer. If records had been easier for AD to obtain, I would be a customer. The ball was dropped.

As for "setting a bad precedent", offering someone in my position a current upgrade happens through these programs all the time. You and I both know that it's pointless to anguish over the fact that we pay a significant amount for something others might get at pennies on the dollar during some promo down the road. I understand your point, but the way the system works, you paid subscription all these years because it represented value to you. Hopefully, you received value in return for what you paid. That's the equation. period. If it upsets you or other subscribers that someone else can grab a $500 copy of Foundation and upgrade it on the cheap, you might need to remind yourself that the only pertinent question we can ask our selves is whether or not our particular expenditure provided us with an adequate return. When I purchased an Advanced license, I did so because there as no other way to get cloth or hair (no need for the extra render nodes). Essentials came to have the same features later on, with a lower upgrade/maintenance cost. For me to resent other users for getting an equivalent (and more cost effective) product to my own through cheaper means would be absurd.

I have a small studio. I watch my budget carefully, and the fact that I have used the same version for five years is not a matter of "apathy". I am not seeking a reward for my complacency. I just don't like falling through the cracks.

I do not view Autodesk as the evil empire. I do, however think that diminishing competition is not good for customers.

Sorry, I simply do not agree.

1st - The special promos that Avid/Softimage may have run in the past are a moot point, they were desperate to increase their user base at the time and did things that were out of the ordinary because of this. We are no longer dealing with Avid/Softimage we are dealing with Autodesk who has a crystal clear policy regarding upgrades and subscriptions, end of story.

2nd - Speaking for myself, the sole reason that I've paid my annual fees is because I am well aware of the fact that if I don't it will cost we a whole lot more money to hop back on in the future.

Again, I don't agree with your premise at all. Like I said, in my opinion I see no reason why a user who doesn't choose to follow the upgrade path should be given any sort of amnesty as it is clearly a slap in the face for all users who have put up their hard earned money and paid their fees -- after all by doing so we are the users who actually have supported the continued development of the software.

Listen, I don't expect you to agree with me, that's OK. Plead your case to Autodesk and perhaps they will take some pity on you and offer you a few bucks off the purchase price... and if they do, great, you win!

But again, In my view I don't think you should be rewarded for ignoring what is a crystal clear policy in the first place. Users who choose to disregard these terms simply will face the consequences of doing so in their budgets.

I wish you luck.


BTW - There are in fact customers that Autodesk most likely does not want, e.g. those who do not pay their annual subscription fees. So in actual fact the loss of a small percentage of these non-conformists is unlikely to cause them any loss of sleep as they simply don't care.

Regards,

J

[zaam]

BTW - There are in fact customers that Autodesk most likely does not want, e.g. those who do not pay their annual subscription fees. So in actual fact the loss of a small percentage of these non-conformists is unlikely to cause them any loss of sleep as they simply don't care.

Wow.

Just wow.

[3dtutorial]

Wow.

Just wow.


Regarding your not being a customer to Autodesk

In my opinion there is something fishy about the story you've been told about your licensing records having gone missing. I'm not saying for a moment that this is not the answer you were given, so please don't misunderstand me I am not questioning your version of events.

However.... the important thing is this. Given the amount of time that has lapsed between your initial software purchase and your desire to now obtain the latest upgrade you have actually reverted to more or less a non-customer (and that is my point).

I think I'm correct in saying that Autodesk has a policy where by if you let more than 3 versions pass you by then you can't upgrade, you are back to the start. (If I'm mistaken about this let me know).

Even if you could upgrade, you would still be liable for all those back support fees, so at the end of the day you going to be buying the software again anyway -- that is the reality of the situation.

I understand that you are not happy with what I am saying to you... hey, I'm not telling you what you want to hear, sorry.

This isn't personal and I can understand how you feel, but that doesn't change anything. Rather than to get into a long discussion about this, you would be best served by contacting your Autodesk reseller and trying to come to an arrangement with them. At the end of the day that is all that matters, perhaps they will help you, but if they don't you should not be too surprised.

Good luck, I hope things work out for you.

Regards,

J

[danlefeb]

With the world economy the way it is, even the mighty Autodesk has to realize that they can fall. No one is exempt. A paying customer is a paying customer.

[3dtutorial]

With the world economy the way it is, even the mighty Autodesk has to realize that they can fall. No one is exempt. A paying customer is a paying customer.

Yes of course, problem is that this paying customer hasn't paid them anything in a long time ;-)

[3dtutorial]

Here you go, carefully read the information at this link:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=7176852&siteID=123112

[erikals]

Here you go, carefully read the information at this link:

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=7176852&siteID=123112

sucks to be an AD user i guess :P
since LW8 i believe i have spent under $400 on upgrades. that said, first time i bought LW i got a deal online buying it for $600.

999 free render nodes... :0

fun read,
http://www.caddmanager.com/CMB/2008/06/autodesk-loses-court-battle-2/

[luceric]

Zaam, when we moved over to Autodesk, people were hired to create customer accounts in the Autodesk system. It required work to provide the information Autodesk's system requires. It took a few months before the current users were transferred, and the people waiting to receive their 7.5 licenses know this. The client databases and filing systems have changed over the years at Softimage, and some of it is on paper and it's work to figure out the duplicates, the company that went out of business, that are already in Autodesk but under other names, etc. So only recent account were moved.

[zaam]

Thanks, Luceric.
That makes sense. Your info sheds a little light on what the rep was referring to. The suggestion to purchase a license of Essentials (now called something else, I think) is my PLAN B, since that would be less costly to maintain in the long run. If I can get something for my past investment (upgrade option), all the better.

I just found the lack of clarity on everything disturbing, and I don't like the possibility that a future upgrade path might be eliminated because of a paperwork issue.

[R10k]

Yes of course, problem is that this paying customer hasn't paid them anything in a long time ;-)

...and didn't receive support or new software, so that's somewhat a moot point.

Sure, one could expect a company to ditch people who weren't providing a decent amount of income, but I think danlefeb's point (along with many others) is that there are repercussions to doing that kind of thing. Small fry guys like myself who get hooked on AD software now, can potentially provide a large amount of income for AD later. It seems silly to me, to have such a short sighted mentality about the whole thing.

[jgoldfin]

Hi -


I just want to comment on the following statement:

"There are in fact customers that Autodesk most likely does not want, e.g. those who do not pay their annual subscription fees. So in actual fact the loss of a small percentage of these non-conformists is unlikely to cause them any loss of sleep as they simply don't care.

It's not that Autodesk doesn't care - there are a lot of factors involved in setting processes and pollicies. A lot of Autodesk employees read the cgtalk forums and customer issues do get raised at many levels within the company.

I am not saying that all outstanding issues can be easily solved, but I do encourage you to raise any issues to your local resellers, who can then communicate them to Autodesk.

[mocaw]

sucks to be an AD user i guess :P
since LW8 i believe i have spent under $400 on upgrades. that said, first time i bought LW i got a deal online buying it for $600.

999 free render nodes... :0

fun read,
http://www.caddmanager.com/CMB/2008/06/autodesk-loses-court-battle-2/

Look, as a LW user I understand where you're coming from, but I paid for the cycles from 7-9, and while it was less money, I think I've received far more bang for my buck out of XSI so far. Jay and folks are working wonders out of the rubble that was LW 6-8, but still...let it rest eh? Come back when core is done- then you might have a legit argument that can persuade users.

So yeah...render nodes etc. great. Still please don't come trolling around here with the same tried and true arguments.

This 3.x account falls outside any rules that were laid down by Avid OR autodesk in terms of upgrade costs etc and there fore have been known for sometime. I'm not saying other AD licensing practices are great, far from it, but this is the exception here- and AFAIK, a waste of time and effort in fighting against.

There are far more legit licensing issues to deal with when it comes to AD and other software companies IMHO.

Let's put it this way. Order coffee from a coffee shop that has refills at a lower price and then come back a week later and ask for a refill. Does that seem ridiculous even though they didn't explicitly say on the chalk board that you had to use the "refill" option the same day?

I'm chalking this argument up as another "wave my dollar and holler" scenario/mindset. You might be able to vote with your dollar, but that doesn't mean you are entitled to special treatment. You stepped out of line, want back in, and are asking for a discount.

[erikals]

well, i wanted to troll, as i think the AD customer policy stinks.
but, allright, i said mine.

[zaam]

Hi -


I just want to comment on the following statement:

"There are in fact customers that Autodesk most likely does not want, e.g. those who do not pay their annual subscription fees. So in actual fact the loss of a small percentage of these non-conformists is unlikely to cause them any loss of sleep as they simply don't care.

It's not that Autodesk doesn't care - there are a lot of factors involved in setting processes and pollicies. A lot of Autodesk employees read the cgtalk forums and customer issues do get raised at many levels within the company.

I am not saying that all outstanding issues can be easily solved, but I do encourage you to raise any issues to your local resellers, who can then communicate them to Autodesk.

Jennifer,
I hope you understand that the post you are quoting was not from the original poster with the issue (that would be me), but ironically, from a satisfied Autodesk customer who has some strong opinions concerning those who do and do not buy subscriptions. I think everyone here understands that he is expressing his view and not Autodesk company policy.

As for my issue, a conversation with my local reseller was in fact where this all began. As I stated before, this is not about bashing AD, but I have a certain level of frustration over it that should be viewed in the context of the acquisition, a certain lack of communication, and policies for upgrades and promotions that are not exactly black and white.

One more time —
I am not ranting and demanding an upgrade for my version 4.x software. I am frustrated because what my rep communicated to me indicates that other older versions were included in upgrade promos that were held as late as this year, but mine was not eligible due to difficulties in record keeping.

[bravmm]

Sorry to say, but it's all a big mess at the VAR's. They don't know, can't say, cannot contact people at AD etc. etc. All kinds of yadayadyada....
In the mean time I'm still waiting for an answer from my 'Valued' Autodesk Reseller if I can still upgrade to the 7.5 promotion deal, as that was extended a bit longer.

But apperently that answer takes weeks to prepare. And then I probably can not, due to the time delays at my VAR, make use of the upgrade promotion anymore.

Again, it's all a big mess that should be dealed with by AD to make it clear to the VAr's worldwide, not just per country as that is so 1900.


rob

[MikeMD]

I fail to see why this guy should be offered any discount or "rewarded" for not doing as others have been advised to do and simply taking advantage of the subscription program.

What are you talking about? You paid for annual subscription and had the benefit of using the latest throughout those years. Why should somebody else jumping from 7.01 or earlier version to 2010 have to pay to catch up and pay for versions they never used.

And, I know I had very little sleep so maybe I'm off, but this makes no sense to me:

After March 15, 2010, your upgrade from any of the three previous software releases will cost 50 percent of the price of a new license, no matter which release you own.

So if I wait until March next year I'll pay 1/2 the price to upgrade from 7.01, but if I upgrade now I'll pay almost or full price.

[R10k]

So if I wait until March next year I'll pay 1/2 the price to upgrade from 7.01, but if I upgrade now I'll pay almost or full price.

It sure sounds like it... :)

[jasonio]

999 render nodes

That's.... 999 cores/threads right? That's 250 quad core/125 octo machines hooked up on a network, yes? 125-250 spare machines sitting idle unless you're rendering... That costs about $250,000.

Like anyone (single user) would need 999 nodes!

I'm an (formerly) essentials and I have a single quad machine. Right now, I don't even use what I get with XSI. So ...

What are you talking about? You paid for annual subscription and had the benefit of using the latest throughout those years. Why should somebody else jumping from 7.01 or earlier version to 2010 have to pay to catch up and pay for versions they never used.

And, I know I had very little sleep so maybe I'm off, but this makes no sense to me

I actually think its a bit of pain to have to backdate the subscription but (so's paying to have your teeth pulled out)... I have to say subscription is worth every penny. Its saves you money. When faced with the figures on all the options, subscription is a complete no-brainer. You bite the bullet and hope you get real value from the extra costs. BTW subscription is no different from "maintenance" when Softimage was under Avid.

And why should you be entitled to the latest version without having help support/fund the interim development? Eh?!

[bravmm]

"And why should you be entitled to the latest version without having help support/fund the interim development? Eh?!"

But doesn't new development will get new customers in? And isn't it part of a company to expect people to drop out for a while, and come back in later? And why should they be punished for it?

Drop this on say -cars-. You buy a car, but don't keep up with the new models coming out because it does all you need. Now you finally buy a new one, but they're adding costs because you didn't keep up with their previous releases.
And to stay in cars terms, the new cars will be developed anyway. If maintenance will get you direct, personal responds on problems, it might be worth it. Softimage was very good with this, AD's not.

my two cents,

rob

[Ohmanoggin]

I have never understood these car analogies with software.
When you want a new car you pay the same price as before. It's like no upgrade at all for anyone.

Just because you have an old version of a car means nothing at the dealer. They don't care if you've "been away for a while". Infact, unlike software there are no savings to be had because you own a previous model.

Something else that puzzles me is that so many artists argue about intellectual property not being worth anything because you can copy it for nothing, but all we artist do is make intellectual property. 3D artists want to be paid for their time, so why treat software developers differently?

Ohmanoggin

[erikals]

good thing you can sell your old car.

[neso]

..or even give it away.

[Bullit]

Just because you have an old version of a car means nothing at the dealer. They don't care if you've "been away for a while". Infact, unlike software there are no savings to be had because you own a previous model.

You can sell your old car. If an user can sell Softimage they have and buy the new version no problem in my book. I also think people that find bugs, make non commercial plugs,addins that add value to the product should benefit from a discount.

[luceric]

You can sell your old car. If an user can sell Softimage they have and buy the new version no problem in my book.
These car analogies are flawed. A software upgrade price is the equivalent of getting a new car and trading your old car for a rebate. You can't sell the license you upgraded, that's part of the reason for the rebate.

If you want to sell your old car on your own, you have to buy the new car at full price. You can do the exact same thing with the software, no one is preventing anyone from buying a new license of Softimage.

Also, there is no 'subscription' service for cars, where you could pay 20% of the price of a car and automatically get upgraded to next's model when it comes out.

[zaam]

Well, I guess that pretty much debunks the old "cars = software" myth.

But, the analogy might apply in another way.
A few years back, I needed a work truck to do business with (XSI). At the time, you could choose from two models — one had relatively good gas mileage, was cheaper, and had lower cost to maintain. The more expensive model had some cool features, but it was a bit of a gas hog and cost a lot to insure. The problem was, if you really needed anti-lock brakes (cloth) and air conditioning (hair) you HAD to buy the more expensive model, which I did.

Shortly after that, the car maker decided to include anti-lock brakes and AC on the cheaper truck. The dealer offered me trade-ins on a regular basis, but only for the BIG expensive truck, which no longer served my needs any better than the budget model.

No I have a gas hog in my driveway that I can't sell.

Life is funny sometimes.

[luceric]

I think you're missing the point of car analogies... they are supposed to prove that it's different in the car world! :P

There's a deal on now (http://pressreleases.autodesk.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=617)! :P Your XSI 4.2 avanced was 6,999$, right?

The deal is:
* All the features you already have PLUS:

* revamped animation UI: new dopesheet, scene summary tracks, keys in the timeline, Shape Manager, Maya channel box-like keying panel, fcurve revamp, streamlined animation editor, param connection editor, transform groups, character key sets, animation layers, MOTOR motion transfer engine, audio scrubbing enhancements
* new dynamics engine based on PhySx, hair grooming, render instances, Syflex3
* Shaderballs, new Material Manager, revamped texture editor, UV unfold, new real time shader pipeline (CGFx, HLSL, DirectX 10),
* new script editor with syntax highlight, scene search, tear off menus, Maya keymap and camera navigation on ATL, hundreds of UI enhancements
* GATOR to transfer attributes between different objects
* revamped external models, new Delta external referencing system, Crosswalk data transfer with Maya/Max, Collada, PointOven, rewritten OBJ, compatibility with zbrush
* mental ray 3.7, pass channels, openexr, fast sub-surface scattering, ambiant occlusion, lightmaps, color management workflow, wack loads of shaders, thirdparty renderer plugin API, shader compounds, preset manager, revamped rendering UI
* new 64-bit native app, vista compatiblity, linux 64-bit
* tweak tool that replaces the existing modeling workflow, bezier manipulators, tons of other modeling enhancements
* hundreds of SDK enhancements including C# and python support, new events, API, Tools Development Environment, revamped plug-in manager, etc
* Gigapolyonecore 3 to handle billions of triangles, load, save and manipulate scenes as much as 10 times faster
* new particle system, Binary Alchemy shaders
* Multi-threaded Visual Programming environment ICE, with hundreds of new operators and visual debugging
* thousands of other enhancements and fixes in all areas
They'll even throw in Face Robot and Elastic Reality for free!

2,995$! that's 4000$ off!
Need Five batch licenses? 1,700$ extra instead of 2,500$!

[erikals]

it's the AD service policy i'm not found of...

...having said that, what you listed there is indeed VERY good for $3000

[mocaw]

I think we're missing the balloons and hot dogs. Add those and the analogy is perfect.

[Jettatore]

All analogies are flawed, that is why they are called analogies. The only useful purpose for an analogy is to help communicate a partial parallel to an otherwise foreign concept. As soon as someone 'wants' to -it is quite a simple task to break down and expose the flaws in any analogy, that is just the nature of the analogy. They should only ever be used in education and never in debate.

[Hirazi]

They should only ever be used in education and never in debate.
Completely , but this view is highly debatable in itself! While one should obviously choose one's analogies wisely, one can very well use them effectively while debating. ;)

[rayboy]

Don't forget folks, that Autodesk behaves this way only because we allow them to.

We don't have to buy their software or upgrades until they start to behave decently towards the people who put the bread on their table.

We should stop being so grateful and sheep-like and keep our wallets closed for a year to bring them to heel.

[Hirazi]

keep our wallets closed for a year to bring them to heel.

...and after that year beg for a reasonable upgrade policy??? ;)

[bunnyld]

Adobe,autodesk,microsoft........

I really hope Newtek will surprise with Lw.core and eat autodesk's market as many as they can.

the fact that all choose to use autodesk products, we give them control over the market and it is bad for us as a customers. (and there are other good packages alternatives to autodesk's products)

[WillBellJr]

...and after that year beg for a reasonable upgrade policy??? ;)

^^ LOL, I know, right!



fun read,
http://www.caddmanager.com/CMB/2008/06/autodesk-loses-court-battle-2/

Hell YES - now that's what I'm talking about! We need more of this across the board!



Lawd knows if I could sell my license (w/maintenance) - I'd let it go hella cheap!


My thing with Autodesk is, it's not indie / artist friendly.

Not that they have to be but isn't an indie's money just as green as an ArchVis company?

I can understand AD's policies concerning their AutoCAD and other "way serious" mechanical markets. But once you start entering the creative markets of 3D graphics, your customer base becomes a lot more private entity / non-corporate.


As I said before, I can't afford to lease software which is pretty much what AD's license feels like to me as a hobbyist.

It's not that I can't afford to keep my maintenance, it's just their policies are not practical for my situation.

I mean what if my daughter starts taking an interest in 3D graphics and programming (she's 15 now) and eventally becomes really good at it and can make a career out of it (the same way I started as an electronics engineer after taking an interest in my father's tools I discovered in the garage as a kid...)


As it stands now, I couldn't even transfer my Softimage license over to her and let her carry the gauntlet as it were...

All my other packages I can license transfer - what's the big deal, really?

Again, Autodesk's way of licensing IMO is fine for the corporate engineering markets but now in the creative domain, it just feels draconian, heavy handed and mean spirited.


Say what you will about Newtek / Lightwave, but I'm hoping for CORE to be a success, Newtek is one of the most artist friendly companies around when it comes to their licensing and upgrade policies (Pixologic leads IMO cause I've paid ONCE for ZB v2 and haven't since - lawd knows how they make their money!)

And to prove my point, look at the ZB galleries! All the gorgeous work there is made by professionals AND hobbyists / individuals.

Minus the frustrations of slipped release dates, Pixologic enjoys a positive feeling from the majority of its user base. This to me is an example of corporate policies that works for its individual and corporate user base.



The majority of what I read from creatives about their AD software is usually negative with them upset about feeling forced and the costs of keeping their maintenance with fears of losing their current status and having to pay full price again...


Now admittedly, I don't read AutoCAD and other mechanical engineering related forums but I doubt you'd see a lot of corporations complaining about AD's maintenance or upgrade policies - for them that's standard fare for the industry their within - the same as when a company purchases a large format printer from my company - they expect maintenance and support for that very expensive piece of hardware...



I don't believe no one here is asking AD to go broke or bend over backwards, just to consider the market(s) they're now in and its user base and scale their stances and policies to match.

-Will

[Nero F. Martin]

Many people also seem to falsely think that "The customer is always right" was the 11th from Sinai. It should really read as "The customer is always profitable." I work for a big, money hungry corporation and realistically, it is perfectly valid to tell customers to walk.

There are many customers who think giving money to you means that there is some big profit and upside for the company and they would never walk away from it but there are business models in place with metrics and values and if you don't fall in line with those it really is okay to let them spend their money elsewhere. The money may be lost but it didn't really represent much on the bottom line and it kept their "reputation" in tact. Plenty of places get reputations for folding to their every customer whim. AD doesn't need to lose money to that. They are the only game in town. So you go to C4D or NT? So what? They don't have 20 other people going "hey, I hear you give upgrades to pretty much anyone for any reason, I want mine!" And one person going? You're not really even a statistic. You aren't a media company buying tens or hundreds of seats and you aren't part of some ground swell to other apps. I agree this will bite them in the ass someday, happened to plenty of market leaders that abused their core users, but that is a long way off. C4D and NT and Blender aren't really threats yet. Not financial ones. So they can tell people to buzz off. Big companies, constant sources of income (i.e. constant upgraders and subscriptions users), they get the velvet rope pulled aside and get to skip the line.

Anyone who thinks telling some company "I'll take my business elsewhere!" is really a genuine threat needs a reality check. Try it at an retail store, bank etc, and they will just help you find the door. It may not be "fair" but it is the way the world works. It's also why I use Blender, even if I do look over the fence longingly at XSI from time to time.

EDIT: And to anyone that would say "I can't use Blender for work." Exactly. AD knows it too. ;)

[adrencg]

Many people also seem to falsely think that "The customer is always right" was the 11th from Sinai. It should really read as "The customer is always profitable." I work for a big, money hungry corporation and realistically, it is perfectly valid to tell customers to walk.

There are many customers who think giving money to you means that there is some big profit and upside for the company and they would never walk away from it but there are business models in place with metrics and values and if you don't fall in line with those it really is okay to let them spend their money elsewhere. The money may be lost but it didn't really represent much on the bottom line and it kept their "reputation" in tact. Plenty of places get reputations for folding to their every customer whim. AD doesn't need to lose money to that. They are the only game in town. So you go to C4D or NT? So what? They don't have 20 other people going "hey, I hear you give upgrades to pretty much anyone for any reason, I want mine!" And one person going? You're not really even a statistic. You aren't a media company buying tens or hundreds of seats and you aren't part of some ground swell to other apps. I agree this will bite them in the ass someday, happened to plenty of market leaders that abused their core users, but that is a long way off. C4D and NT and Blender aren't really threats yet. Not financial ones. So they can tell people to buzz off. Big companies, constant sources of income (i.e. constant upgraders and subscriptions users), they get the velvet rope pulled aside and get to skip the line.

Anyone who thinks telling some company "I'll take my business elsewhere!" is really a genuine threat needs a reality check. Try it at an retail store, bank etc, and they will just help you find the door. It may not be "fair" but it is the way the world works. It's also why I use Blender, even if I do look over the fence longingly at XSI from time to time.

EDIT: And to anyone that would say "I can't use Blender for work." Exactly. AD knows it too. ;)

Sadly, this is true....

[svero]

Well... I just asked my reseller to upgrade my 7.01 - I was told there's no upgrade path and I should just buy a new copy.

I own a small game studio and I mostly use outside contractors for artwork. I mostly wanted to to upgrade my internal license to keep current and so I could download point releases and have a little support as well as share scene files etc... But It's not worth the price of a full new license just to do that. Also, while I can technically afford it, something just feels very wrong about paying for a full new copy given how recently I bought advanced from SI. So for now I'll wait. Maybe I'll upgrade later when the price of a new copy has enough new features to warrant it or if another special comes along. Though the experience has left me feeling a little negative.

I donno.. I've read the counter arguments here, but none the less, I think AD is a little too quick to toss customers to the curb. It strikes me a dubious business model.

[ThE_JacO]

Well... I just asked my reseller to upgrade my 7.01 - I was told there's no upgrade path and I should just buy a new copy.
I would write to AD.
No upgrade path for 7.01 sounds really odd...
Who's your reseller?

[svero]

I would write to AD. No upgrade path for 7.01 sounds really odd... Who's your reseller?

When AD bought softimage, I was contacted by a company called 3vis, in Montreal. My original xsi reseller doesn't sell AD products. 3vis are the ones I requested a quote from. I know it sounds odd, and I asked them twice to verify it and I was told there was no upgrade path. I was also told I couldn't re-download 7.01 unless I bought a new license. Is that information actually wrong? If so I'd sure like to know. Perhaps I should write AD to verify...

[luceric]

That's what the Softimage 2010 press release says (http://pressreleases.autodesk.com/index.php?s=press_releases&item=617), no upgrade for versions before 7.5.
However, the Software will released in 3 weeks, perhaps there will be promotions announced.

[Hirazi]

All this mystery concerning a possible upgrade offer somehow doesn't feel very nice. The original statement, saying there would be no upgrade offers to versions prior to 7.5, wasn't very nice either, but if and when the company decides this might have be a bit harsh, they just might as well state explicitly if there truly is such an offer in the making or not. A statement like "perhaps there will be promotions announced" IMHO seems too blatantly and intentionally vague...

[xsisupport]

When AD bought softimage, I was contacted by a company called 3vis, in Montreal. My original xsi reseller doesn't sell AD products. 3vis are the ones I requested a quote from. I know it sounds odd, and I asked them twice to verify it and I was told there was no upgrade path. I was also told I couldn't re-download 7.01 unless I bought a new license. Is that information actually wrong? If so I'd sure like to know. Perhaps I should write AD to verify...

Subscription customers can download previous versions from the Subscription Center. I think that is what your reseller was talking about.

When 2010 is released, the previous versions available for download from the Subscription Center will be 7.5, 7.01, and 6.5.

Softimage customers who need a legacy download can contact Softimage.Licensing@autodesk.com (http://forums.cgsociety.org/Softimage.Licensing@autodesk.com). By Softimage customers I mean customers who purchased 7.01 or earlier. Legacy downloads are 7.01 and earlier.

[Letterbox]

I swear, some days you cant win...

no upgrade for versions before 7.5. ...... What???

now...the Software will released in 3 weeks, perhaps there will be promotions announced....this does not feel nice !!??

its like you damned if you don't, and your damned if you do.

[Hirazi]

Sorry, "Letterbox", but it's not the offer, it's the vagueness surrounding the offer I'm "complaining" about... The offer itself will be hailed by all as a great gift from AD, if it does materialize, but all these vague hints by employees of the company that there may or may not be such an offer do strike me as odd...

[svero]

OK. Well... I wrote to Autodesk directly and they told me that there will be some kind of offer to migrate from 7.01 (and maybe ealier? not sure) It just hasn't been announced yet. They didn't say what the deal would be but there will be "something" in place. Apparently they'll be letting resellers know in a few days. So... stay tuned I guess.

[zaam]

Sorry, "Letterbox", but it's not the offer, it's the vagueness surrounding the offer I'm "complaining" about... The offer itself will be hailed by all as a great gift from AD, if it does materialize, but all these vague hints by employees of the company that there may or may not be such an offer do strike me as odd...

It's understandable that employees are limited in what they can say for now. I would say chances are very good that an offer will accompany the release of 2010.

I have issue with a different kind of "vagueness". Regardless of what some here might claim, the policy surrounding Softimage/XSI upgrades has been anything but clear to some of us, and to claim that everyone should simply "play by the rules" is a bit shortsighted and condescending.

Look — many of us own small studios. We budget wisely and try to make informed purchase decisions. As I stated in my original post, not upgrading annually was a decision I made based on project needs and budget. But, and this is key to my confusion here, I did get quotes on a few occasions from Soft/AVID to upgrade my license before deciding how to spend the next year's funds. At no time was I told that upgrades were no longer offered for my license, but instead that I could upgrade my copy of ADV for around $2K after sales tax. Sprinkle in a few special upgrade offers along the way, and it's not a big reach to understand how someone in my position might assume upgrades are available until otherwise notified. Of course I understood things might change after the sale to Autodesk, but is it too much to ask to get some communication clearly outlining those changes? Is an email from AD too much to ask?

A link was posted earlier in this thread outlining AD's policy of retiring software versions. That's good. It is specific and clear. No problem there. Does it mention Soft/XSI? No. And the document is not describing a current policy, but one that begins March 2010. Should owners of V7 not be upset when they are told they are not eligible for upgrades? Are they expected to have known this already? And yes, it is almost certain they will be taken care of with a future offer, but does that change how they feel when they are given the "bad" news?

I said earlier that I anticipated an offer this fall to include earlier versions. In the case of some, that will do no good, since our license records were not obtained by AD. I am OK with buying a new license either this fall or later and starting fresh, but I do hope the future is clearer surrounding these issues. Can everyone here honestly say at any given time that they know exactly how to evaluate the cost effectiveness of subscription vs. upgrading for Softimage products (not older AD offerings)? Wouldn't that require knowing at exactly what point your versions were no longer eligible and specifically how costs to upgrade would increase as eligible versions got older?

[Fog]

I personally think that it is completely unreasonable to expect someone to buy an entirely new license after only 6 years. That is expecting someone to entirely re-purchase many of the same tools he already paid thousands for, just to get refinements and the completely new stuff.

Here's why I think what AD is doing is not only reasonable but is really a better deal for the owner of v3.5: I can almost guarantee you that the cost of buying a full new license will be MUCH less than that spent by somebody who diligently upgraded over the same time period, particularly when considering the time value of the money saved by NOT upgrading previously and by NOT buying FaceRobot in the first place (which I believe cost on the order of $20K a year ago).

Why should an XSI Advanced 3.5 licensee feel ripped off for having to spend less money to get more performance than he/she would have had to spend for diligently upgrading along the way? The people who bought prior versions but did not upgrade still have a license to what they bought, but the discounted upgrade paths have to end at some point, if only in consideration of the people who diligently upgraded, who would stop that if they felt ripped-off. And it's not like the upgrades have been free (I've had to pay twice to upgrade, and I bought in January 2008), and it's not like the discounted upgrades reached back to all prior versions of XSI. Check out the upgrade paths provided by other vendors. For example, Adobe Acrobat 9 only has upgrade paths back to 6.0, so if you bought Adobe Acrobat 5.0, which has fewer generations between it and v9.0 than there is between XSI 3.5 and SI 2010, you are outta luck for special upgarde pricing.

The right thing to do is to consider the total value of purchasing the new software+subscription and ask yourself whether it is worth it. Given that AD seems to be bent on maintaining a schedule of a full update every year, the subscription may provide a lot more value than the previous upgrade paths provided by SoftImage, which cost double the maintenance agreement, at least on an annual basis.

[zaam]

Fog,

As the owner of version 4x (not 3.5), I can tell you that I DO NOT feel ripped off. And, I completely agree that buying a new version may be my best value overall. However, you are missing a couple of points. True, those of us who did buy upgrades over the past five years have spent more money, but in exchange for that they were able to take advantage of the features and enhancements those upgrades offered. That's a wash, IMO. Second, I do not take issue with a company setting whatever policies they see fit, as long as they are evenly applied and clearly communicated. The expectation that I might be able to upgrade (at whatever cost AD set) was not unreasonable in light of things I mentioned earlier. I am simply bothered by the fact that my eligibility for an upgrade (or lack thereof) was never communicated when AD took the reins, and by the fact that my records were never obtained by AD, making it highly unlikely that I could take advantage of future offers that might arise.

If the policy had been clearer from the start, I would have had no issue, nor would the owners of version 7, when they were told they were not eligible. As for Adobe's policies, I have purchased numerous upgrades of Photoshop, After Effects, Creative Suite , etc . . . for many many years. I always knew exactly where I stood with my Adobe licenses and found it very easy to make upgrade decisions accordingly.

[luceric]

It's understandable that employees are limited in what they can say for now. I would say chances are very good that an offer will accompany the release of 2010. in this case not so much limited as not so sure what the final agreements will be. I'm waiting like the rest of you see what will be announced.

[Jettatore]

IRT: Fog

I do not know what number is fair; I believe he deserves a discount.

He assisted in the funding of the future development of the software with his original purchase.

New full license costs xxx from said reseller, said reseller is running xxx promotion for new full licenses, +xxx additional discount for customer's legacy support.


That is my opinion.

[TomThumb]

Anyone who thinks telling some company "I'll take my business elsewhere!" is really a genuine threat needs a reality check. Try it at an retail store, bank etc, and they will just help you find the door. It may not be "fair" but it is the way the world works. It's also why I use Blender, even if I do look over the fence longingly at XSI from time to time.

Untrue. How many companies - smaller companies - could not compete with Walmart and went out of business? It wasn't that they consciously told the smaller company that they would take their business elsewhere, but the larger company offered better deals and they ended up being the only REAL game in town. So they win. What will eventually happen if AD continues to treat it's customers poorly? All you need is one competitor that has great software that the entire community values. I'm thinking of Lightwave CORE. I don't think CORE will amount to a complete package this year or perhaps even next year. But seriously... what if it does add features comparable to the AD aquisitions and does it well and for less? You just might have many of the regular AD customers say enough and stop paying AD. A few dozen of few hundred people jumping off the AD ship may not mean much to AD, but it all depends on how AD treats their customers. If enough people get tired of the hassles and big corporate mentality, it just may end up biting them in the arse. And it won't be customers telling AD "I'll take my business elsewhere" - they'll just SEE customers NOT upgrading or continuing their subscriptions. And... the end would still be the same as if someone said...."I'll take my business elsewhere."

It could happen. :)

[Letterbox]

fog has a point, jet has a point, zaam has a point, Joe has a point, and so does everyone else, and my point it this is becoming a ping-pong game, upgrade? some yes - some no.


But back to zaam (the dude's) original comment, he why he was not informed..eg

"but I have a certain level of frustration over it that should be viewed in the context of the acquisition, a certain lack of communication."

but also said....

"According to my rep, Autodesk blames AVID for poor record keeping and for being somewhat uncooperative during the transition."


One could reasonable say that's like the old story of the email servers going down, if you have any problems email me.



Either way it in business terms has to be seen as a missed opportunity.


But interestingly someone else commented along similar lines about reps...


To me the deeper message of this very interesting thread and something that AD can take away and improve is that;

The rep's/var/channel dealers, should be much better informed regarding the upgrade policies, and to a large extent should be show the comments made here about value of the product. It would make a good training exercise.

Because I sure Zaam, if it was initially explained as some poster here has, the alternate ways of viewing the point of re-purchasing, saying there was still value to be had, i think it would have not resulted in this thread.

Also that it seems to me that the rep's/var/channel dealers, need a bit more "training" in the history of the product, as I probably think they were caught unaware. And from Zaam's comment, only seemed interested in selling a new product. Which is understandable, if you knew nothing of the past, and didn't have a clear and specific set of guidelines, and the information to back that up.

If anything that seems the only reasonable solution, as it ensures that the customers do know whats going on, do understand the upgrade paths, feel like they have a rep that understands the product, and them, and don't feel like they are just being forced into a purchase, with out all the necessary information and guidance.

I think if AD took that message away, and did re-skill the reps that they would be in a position to ensure that the customers did feel feel that (upgrade or not) they were getting the fairest deal possible.

Cheers
Terry

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