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arvindsond
08-12-2009, 04:24 PM
This looks amazing......best bit comes around halfway through!
Loving the artistic freedom that pixologic are conjuring up in ZBrush 3.5:

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=073956

Arvind!

cresshead
08-12-2009, 04:41 PM
This is as close to physically building a maquette as your going to get on a pc.
Starting with the wire skeleton and slapping on the clay.
This is the virtual Ray Harryhausen digital workshop!

this looks rather like the metaball plugins for 3dsmax 3 such as metareyes but turned into a "muscle brush".

mister3d
08-12-2009, 04:42 PM
What interests me is the 3d plane they finally have like in any normal 3d modeling package? Finally? :thumbsup:

Venkman
08-12-2009, 05:11 PM
When I visit the page, the flash piece says "movie not loaded" when I right click on it.

Edit- never mind, it took a while to load. I'm saving it to my hard drive.

HcyeKRa
08-12-2009, 05:43 PM
Can't wait!

SheepFactory
08-12-2009, 05:47 PM
Looks amazing! I can't wait for zbrush 3.5.

bjoern
08-12-2009, 06:08 PM
I'm not a Zbrusher, but I just love that Autodesk gets its Ass kicked! :)
Power to the small companys!!! :)

HcyeKRa
08-12-2009, 06:09 PM
Small and maybe privately hold companies. ;)
I'm not a Zbrusher, but I just love that Autodesk gets its Ass kicked! :)
Power to the small companys!!! :)

arvindsond
08-12-2009, 06:18 PM
What interests me is the 3d plane they finally have like in any normal 3d modeling package? Finally? :thumbsup:

This is true....I noticed this aswell, it's about time, it just grounds the model into the software a lot better!

Arvind!

BigPixolin
08-12-2009, 06:21 PM
Yes ground plane much appreacated. Now if only the veiw does not change perspective based on objects and is actually a 3d veiw. I hope so.

biliousfrog
08-12-2009, 06:22 PM
stick a timeline in there and we have virtual stop-motion...no more of this rigging and weighting nonesense ;)

ngrava
08-12-2009, 06:23 PM
Well, that pretty much kicked my ass too. :D Just when I think they are going to finally get lazy and fall behind do something like this. You have to admit that they are a pretty innovative little company no matter what you may think of ZBrush's interface.

arctor
08-12-2009, 06:25 PM
seesm cool...

what's that music?

csutcliffe
08-12-2009, 06:29 PM
If there's the equivalent of the Nobel Prize for Programming Ofer Alon and his team should get it. I really love the way that they think out of the box when it comes to creating Zbrush and zpheres II has just blown me away.

ajitsinghyadav
08-12-2009, 06:33 PM
Pixologic people are crazy :thumbsup:

Dennik
08-12-2009, 06:36 PM
stick a timeline in there and we have virtual stop-motion...no more of this rigging and weighting nonesense ;)

Quoted for agreement.
I'm itching to buy Zbrush as it is just to get the next couple of amazing upgrades for free.

But if they put animation features in it, I'll probably ditch whatever package i was using for the past 12 years.
I truly hate rigging and weighting.

demoniorojo
08-12-2009, 06:50 PM
Woow!!Simply looks incredible! I canīt wait to try it :drool:

Lone Deranger
08-12-2009, 07:00 PM
Quoted for truth!

This looks great. It reminds me a little bit of MetaReyes, but with vastly better ease of use and control.
I also am glad to see Pixologic's new policy of communicating to the outside world through these interspersed feature demonstrations as opposed to months/years of silence. Much better this way. Well done! :)


....I just love that Autodesk gets its Ass kicked! :)
Power to the small companys!!! :)

AJ
08-12-2009, 07:01 PM
Yes ground plane much appreacated. Now if only the veiw does not change perspective based on objects and is actually a 3d veiw. I hope so.I thought the exact same thing. I did notice that it shifts perspective as they're raising the characters arms - but it's too early to know exactly what's going on yet.

Venkman
08-12-2009, 07:05 PM
That made my jaw drop. This and GoZ for C4d has got me really interested.

squidinc
08-12-2009, 07:19 PM
wowsers :drool:

looks fun to play with

rock
08-12-2009, 07:21 PM
This ZBrush Zspheres 2.0 is just too much -- too much innovation and wow factor that Autodesk somehow could not foster and nurtured in-house.

Stellios
08-12-2009, 07:34 PM
I thought the exact same thing. I did notice that it shifts perspective as they're raising the characters arms - but it's too early to know exactly what's going on yet.

perspective improvements will be a feature of the upcoming release

http://www.pixolator.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=073517

joie
08-12-2009, 07:39 PM
What about mesh topology?, Are those muscles cuadrangular or triangular meshed?, mmm...

iatriki
08-12-2009, 07:45 PM
it should be very useful for 3D concepting.

BigPixolin
08-12-2009, 07:45 PM
perspective improvements will be a feature of the upcoming release

http://www.pixolator.com/zbc/showthread.php?t=073517

Pretty much the same wording as when Z3 was released and it was a feature then. Still keeping my fingers crossed just in case.

Steve Green
08-12-2009, 07:47 PM
Very slick.

- Steve

polygun
08-12-2009, 07:52 PM
Im so glad I purchased zbrush last month. I bought mudbox 6 months ago and loved it, was scared of zbrush because it looks like you need a degree in quantum mechanics to use it

Not only did I find zbrush to be an infinitely better application, but now this? and for free??? Wow. Too bad i bought mudbox+subscription before i gave zbrush a fighting chance

Womball
08-12-2009, 07:57 PM
Any news if its 64 bit?

ienrdna
08-12-2009, 08:01 PM
I'm sold. message is too short.

frogspasm
08-12-2009, 08:17 PM
seesm cool...

what's that music?

FC Kahuna - Hayling
Totally reminds me of Massive Attack, though.

Oh, yeah..and thanks Pixologic!
Looking forward to it :)

southparx
08-12-2009, 08:21 PM
If there's the equivalent of the Nobel Prize for Programming Ofer Alon and his team should get it. I really love the way that they think out of the box when it comes to creating Zbrush and zpheres II has just blown me away.

quoted for agreement

Szos
08-12-2009, 08:27 PM
I'm not a Zbrusher, but I just love that Autodesk gets its Ass kicked! :)
Power to the small companys!!! :)

You just had to jinx it didn't you?

Watch tomorrow AutoDesk announces that they just bought ZBrush.

HcyeKRa
08-12-2009, 08:52 PM
You woul'd love that eh?
But bjoern still has a point about the small companies.
You just had to jinx it didn't you?

Watch tomorrow AutoDesk announces that they just bought ZBrush.

meats
08-12-2009, 09:00 PM
If there's the equivalent of the Nobel Prize for Programming Ofer Alon and his team should get it. I really love the way that they think out of the box when it comes to creating Zbrush and zpheres II has just blown me away.

I've always had the theory that Ofer is from the future and he just gives us the tools that our brains and hardware can understand for the current time period.

The new Zspheres look awesome!

Andy1010
08-12-2009, 09:58 PM
You've gotta be freaking kidding me! Wow, all I can say is Wow.:bowdown:

JCAddy
08-12-2009, 10:02 PM
Why do I own zbrush and never use it? WTF is my problem. Can't get motivated after work these days.

This looks amazing.

GQ1
08-12-2009, 10:27 PM
First GoZ, then ZSpheres 2 and a boatload of improvements. :bounce: :thumbsup:

What is next a free upgrade :D :)

Poisen
08-12-2009, 10:34 PM
agree with Meats,

i have long had a little green man theory about Ofer and Pixologic.
:bowdown:

CHRiTTeR
08-13-2009, 12:26 AM
What about mesh topology?, Are those muscles cuadrangular or triangular meshed?, mmm...

Even better, what about voxel based? :D

fahr
08-13-2009, 12:41 AM
Can zbrush do 3d painting yet? Normal maps, color, bump, spec?

It would be the most amazing app evar if it could.

John-S
08-13-2009, 01:31 AM
I've been jaw dropped since last night about this feature. Totally Awesome!

My misunderstanding with Pixologic is:
(please don't throw stones at me for this)

If they would stop giving away all these upgrades then couldn't they push these technologies out faster by affording to pay more programmers? I realize they are innovating miles ahead of everybody else at this point but yet release dates, mac vs pc, bugs etc are always way off the mark.

Even if they only charged $20 for an upgrade. Would that really piss everyone off or would it possibly bring us this software faster with less bugs?

I don't wanna take away from the purpose of this thread but its just something that always frustrates me with them after seeing the release dates always pushed back etc.

DuttyFoot
08-13-2009, 01:46 AM
You have to admit that they are a pretty innovative little company no matter what you may think of ZBrush's interface.

i was thinking the same thing while watching the video. i have always been intimidated by zbrush but i think i will give it a try this time around.

BigPixolin
08-13-2009, 02:03 AM
I've been jaw dropped since last night about this feature. Totally Awesome!

My misunderstanding with Pixologic is:
(please don't throw stones at me for this)

If they would stop giving away all these upgrades then couldn't they push these technologies out faster by affording to pay more programmers? I realize they are innovating miles ahead of everybody else at this point but yet release dates, mac vs pc, bugs etc are always way off the mark.

Even if they only charged $20 for an upgrade. Would that really piss everyone off or would it possibly bring us this software faster with less bugs?

I don't wanna take away from the purpose of this thread but its just something that always frustrates me with them after seeing the release dates always pushed back etc.

I'm right there with you. I use zbrush to make money. I see no reason why I cannot invest back into zbrush. I would rather pay and get what they announce when they announce it.
Maybe 20 pages of OMGZ WOOT at zbrushcentral is enough payment?

Intervain
08-13-2009, 02:04 AM
I've always had the theory that Ofer is from the future and he just gives us the tools that our brains and hardware can understand for the current time period.

The new Zspheres look awesome!

that about summed it up :)

Bucket
08-13-2009, 02:16 AM
It looks promising. If they fixed the bugs and made it easier to build hands or anything with multiple extrusions from a single zsphere. Then I'll be looking forward to it. Otherwise I'll just keep doing things the old way...

ambient-whisper
08-13-2009, 02:45 AM
if you look at the bug that they made, you will notice that there's a few things on that bug at the beginning of that video that would have been impossible back in zbrush 3.1 because of how it handled the skinning. i suspect that things like fingers will not be a problem anymore :)

hanskloss
08-13-2009, 02:55 AM
Amazing job Pixologic!! I got pulled into Mudbox with 2009, but am going to hit zBrush once 3.5 comes out. Sexyyyy!!!:)

Lone Deranger
08-13-2009, 03:06 AM
Aren't you a beta-tester Martin? So surely you could give it a go and report back to us. :)

.... i suspect that things like fingers will not be a problem anymore :)

Samuka3000
08-13-2009, 03:38 AM
They've done it again. :eek: :bowdown:

R10k
08-13-2009, 04:10 AM
First, there were there mutant potatos. Now, there will be mutant potatos with muscles.

pnoland
08-13-2009, 05:45 AM
Sold! Oh shit, I already own Zbrush. ...Waiting anxiously! :)

phexitol
08-13-2009, 07:17 AM
Why do I own zbrush and never use it? WTF is my problem. Can't get motivated after work these days.

Hold on a sec... are you me!?

I think that this will at least inspire me to pick it up and give it a bit more time. ZSpheres2 look like they will allow me to overcome what was holding me back with normal ZSpheres (the skin has a bad habit of crossing over itself whenever I try turning the ZSpheres into a mesh).

Magnus81
08-13-2009, 07:50 AM
I downloaded a countdown gadget for Vista set for ZB 3.5 release. I have days, hours, minutes, and seconds counting down. Can't wait for this stuff!

Swizzle
08-13-2009, 08:04 AM
You know, I've never really been into Zbrush. I thought it could produce some kickass results in the right hands and the way it actually displays things is damn pretty, but whenever I tried it I had a really tough time getting past the interface and controls. In general, I prefer Mudbox even though it doesn't have some of the tools I'd like.

I come in here to look at this video thinking, "Okay, let's see what all the hubbub is about. It probably won't interest me very much."

So I'm sitting here, watching the video, dum de dum, thinking "So what?"

Then they started adding muscles. It took me about fifteen seconds to realize what was happening.

I sat there through the entire video completely slackjawed.

I'm going to buy this.

biliousfrog
08-13-2009, 08:28 AM
Can zbrush do 3d painting yet? Normal maps, color, bump, spec?

It would be the most amazing app evar if it could.

um...yes?...hasn't it always been able to do that?

ambient-whisper
08-13-2009, 08:37 AM
no

you cant see your model with a spec channel ( Defined by a texture map ) with a normal map, colour, bump etc all at the same time.

you are limited to one map at a time, and it has to be loaded into the colour channel unfortunately.

i hope zbrush 4 or some future version will change this as it would help sooooo much.

i can understand though that with polypainting, it might take up too much ram to have too many attributes attached to a model for all these channels, textures, but once it becomes 64 bit im sure they will revisit this aspect?! i hope so.

Clanger
08-13-2009, 08:42 AM
I remember a while back I tried making a tree with ZSpheres and it made a huge tangled mess when converting to polys I've never used them since. I can't wait to give them another go.

DimitrisLiatsos
08-13-2009, 08:47 AM
I always loved Zbrush like nuts..now ..with all these improvements, i think we gonna have tons of fun with it...KUDOS to small and innovative companies ...and as someone said before.
The guys in Pixologic should get a nobel prize or something for sure. I 've never seen my jaw drop so fast....

Bombastic ! :buttrock:

MasonDoran
08-13-2009, 09:28 AM
of all the monthly updates they have been posting, this is the first one that actually seems useful.

Kel Solaar
08-13-2009, 09:48 AM
Trully insane, gratz to Pixologic !

KS

mthemelis
08-13-2009, 10:11 AM
glad to see there is still innovation in this business!

keep up the good work guys!

mister3d
08-13-2009, 10:31 AM
I've always had the theory that Ofer is from the future and he just gives us the tools that our brains and hardware can understand for the current time period.

The new Zspheres look awesome!

Huhuh, I have the same feeling. :)

Ballo
08-13-2009, 12:04 PM
I do like Zbrush because they have the goal to innovate all the time, but I would like they will improve the tools that we have in zbrush, not just making new tools.

But I wanna test the new Zbrush to close my mouth. :D

musashidan
08-13-2009, 12:18 PM
As a MudBox convert i'd have to say i'm pretty pissed. My main reason for switching was the oddball,finicky,unintuitive ZB UI and Mud's ease of use and trad 3D workflow.

However..............sub-tools,transpose master,decimation master,retopo,GoZ,paintstop,and now this whole revolutionary Zspheres2 carry on.:eek:

This is an incredible technology which has to be applauded vigorously. I don't like to bandwagon bash ADM&E just for the sake of it,but come on.These free plugins for ZB which seem to just keep coming are starting to give me the itch.

Meanwhile,ADM&E-the biggest software company in the world- are relying on a solo Mud user who isn't even an employee or native programmer to release plugins for them off his own steam!! (everyone knows who the guy is and if you ask me he's singlehandedly marketed MudBox since its inception)

Something has to give here.Mud2010-a full point release-had a few handy workflow bits and bobs thrown in and was more like a SP than a full point release.
I'm not the first MudBox convert on this thread who is highly impressed with what ZB is doing.So, AutoDesk,take heed.The conversion goes both ways.

MasonDoran
08-13-2009, 02:06 PM
Zbrush has a significantly greater number of man hours invested into its development if you want to compare features to Mudbox - even if more then half of the features have no use in a production pipeline.

But we can certainly expect a lot more coming out of the Mudbox SDK.

As far as new features being released for Zbrush, this is like the only one that is innovative. It does look quite useful though for concept sketching.

musashidan
08-13-2009, 02:24 PM
Zbrush has a significantly greater number of man hours invested into its development if you want to compare features to Mudbox



This i agree with. However,i wasn't make a features list comparison.It was more of a development progression comparison. I love working in Mudbox for it's sheer ability to get things done intuitively. And as you've said: the future for Mud is only beginning with the SDK.
And Mud has been going a number of years now so it's not the newcomer it once was.

Kanga
08-13-2009, 02:57 PM
of all the monthly updates they have been posting, this is the first one that actually seems useful.
I would of thought the biggest limitation was all that too and fro while modelling. So instead of changing the app they just let you link to your fav prog. That I would call a master stroke.

I am with the rest of you the sphere 2 thing looks damn sexy.

They say the best is yet to come,... amazing amazing stuff.

Poisen
08-13-2009, 03:08 PM
Quote " even if more then half of the features have no use in a production pipeline.

But we can certainly expect a lot more coming out of the Mudbox SDK.

As far as new features being released for Zbrush, this is like the only one that is innovative. It does look quite useful though for concept sketching."

why do people insist on speaking for everyone when they talk about software inovation, its usefulness and their production pipeline?

i guess i must do things alot different than the generally accepted and industry perfected "correct" way of doing things.
i was under the impression that there were alot of different piplines and methods to get the same job done with different software and methodologies.
but someone is always preaching about the software being utterly useless if it doesnt conform to their perfected pipline and the "right" way of doing things.
seems like a pretty inflexable and confining way to work IMHO..

how do you ever improve?
i thought this was a very fluid and changing industry and that if you ever stopped learning new ways and new methods and new software to add and improve your "pipline" that you would in short order be old hat and bottom shelf.

but thats just my ever changing and chaotic way of doing things i guess...

ulb
08-13-2009, 03:17 PM
They say the best is yet to come,... amazing amazing stuff.A new UI?

Those zspheres are indeed really nice, but I just can't see myself using zbrush as long as they don't change the UI. And I don't think they are going to change it anytime soon.

I know it's possible to get used to it, but having tried mudbox and zbrush, I just can't help hating zbrush's UI. I believe the UI was not designed at all to achieve what zbrush is mainly used for.

This is a bit sad considering how awesome all those features would be with an intuitive UI.

Geta-Ve
08-13-2009, 03:25 PM
I am curious as to the actual advantage this has over regular ZB/MB modelling? This seems like the process would actually be slower, having to build up from the frame essentially.

Perhaps though I am just not understanding the real use of this?

Poisen
08-13-2009, 03:35 PM
because then after building it up,
it then has a zsphere "frame" that you can then pose and manipulate your detailed model?
think posable armature.

im hoping for an animation timeline to be added in the future...
stop motion animation anyone? ;)

BigPixolin
08-13-2009, 03:56 PM
I just can't help hating zbrush's UI. I believe the UI was not designed at all to achieve what zbrush is mainly used for.

I beleive that is the case also. I think things like Ztools were intended to be scaled and dropped on the canvas to create a 2.5d illustration. And now fall-out from that is stuff like it making absolutly no sense to any sane person to scale your object you are sculpting to zoom in on it..............

arctor
08-13-2009, 04:03 PM
FC Kahuna - Hayling
Totally reminds me of Massive Attack, though.

Oh, yeah..and thanks Pixologic!
Looking forward to it :)

thanks man!...

Kanga
08-13-2009, 04:06 PM
People will always whine about the interface. On everything,.. get used to it. People even have a decent whinge about zb updates being free. You all need a jolly good spanking!
A new UI?

Those zspheres are indeed really nice, but I just can't see myself using zbrush as long as they don't change the UI. And I don't think they are going to change it anytime soon.

I know it's possible to get used to it, but having tried mudbox and zbrush, I just can't help hating zbrush's UI. I believe the UI was not designed at all to achieve what zbrush is mainly used for.

This is a bit sad considering how awesome all those features would be with an intuitive UI.

AJ
08-13-2009, 04:07 PM
This seems like the process would actually be slower, having to build up from the frame essentially.Well - see how long it would take you to create & pose the base for the model they do in the video.

For all the multiple complaints about Zbrush's UI, while I completely agree (i.e. seeming like total madness compared to any other 3D app) - if you do take some time to learn it, you soon realise that it's not such a big deal, it's just different.

Venkman
08-13-2009, 04:12 PM
I am curious as to the actual advantage this has over regular ZB/MB modelling? This seems like the process would actually be slower, having to build up from the frame essentially.

Perhaps though I am just not understanding the real use of this?

It's just a different way of thinking, I suppose. If you want to create models really based on anatomy and muscle groups, this seems like a no brainer.

I showed this zBrush to a traditional (non-digital) artist friend of mine, and she was amazed. it's basically how she works with sculpy when making a figure. An armature, then building up the form on top in layers.

Nemoid
08-13-2009, 04:43 PM
yes, it seems to be very natural. it is the same way a sculptor or stop motion puppet maker acts to build characters, plus you have some more flexibility, because you can deform, fix pose and repose it endlessly. Dunno bout topology, tho, maybe there's some new tool for retopo purposes coupled with this?

Bucket
08-13-2009, 05:37 PM
If they would stop giving away all these upgrades then couldn't they push these technologies out faster by affording to pay more programmers? I realize they are innovating miles ahead of everybody else at this point but yet release dates, mac vs pc, bugs etc are always way off the mark.

Even if they only charged $20 for an upgrade. Would that really piss everyone off or would it possibly bring us this software faster with less bugs?



I know the perception is that if they charged more.. You get product better product much sooner. That's definitely not the case from experience. I've quoted my price to my clients and they say.. oh.. we wanted to spend more.. we don't want a cheap product.. I say oh.. I didn't know you wanted THAT kind of product.. I raise the price.. they get the same product. Both are happy.

I have an established system that works for me. Paying me more, will probably not make me change my system. But, if paying me more money, makes you feel better. Then I'm happy to take your money.

Changing the system could actually hinder the development of my product. Asking that they charge more for a product may not make a difference. Except in that they will have more money and you less.

Hell, I don't think I should be telling you this. It's a nice little business secret that few know about. :)

Magnus3D
08-13-2009, 05:40 PM
Money is probably not everything to the Pixologic team these days, i think what they want now are satisfied users on all platforms and a good solid reputation. They probably get their income from elsewhere and also new customers purchasing Zbrush licenses. Reminds me a bit of how Luxology operates. :)

/ Magnus

CHRiTTeR
08-13-2009, 07:08 PM
The guys in Pixologic should get a nobel prize or something for sure. I 've never seen my jaw drop so fast....

I think an oscar is more appropriate

Bombastic ! :buttrock:

agreed

Alekzsander
08-13-2009, 07:55 PM
Hi every Body it look really good, i remember i had an idea almost like that :)
but i dont have too much time . hhehe

CrazyMatt
08-13-2009, 09:22 PM
If this is Zbrush 3.5...

Then whats in it for 4? :D

ambient-whisper
08-13-2009, 09:51 PM
It's just a different way of thinking, I suppose. If you want to create models really based on anatomy and muscle groups, this seems like a no brainer.

I showed this zBrush to a traditional (non-digital) artist friend of mine, and she was amazed. it's basically how she works with sculpy when making a figure. An armature, then building up the form on top in layers.

not only that but imagine saving this zlt file with your armature and muscles already prebuilt.

this way you can pose the character differently and have all your volume stuff kept intact. change some of the muscles and or face and you got a new character.

it is mostly just a different way of doing the same, but sometimes you need that so that you dont always feel that you are doing the same thing over and over and over again. changing up the workflow is needed sometimes to keep things fresh.

richcz3
08-13-2009, 10:35 PM
I am curious as to the actual advantage this has over regular ZB/MB modelling? This seems like the process would actually be slower, having to build up from the frame essentially.

Perhaps though I am just not understanding the real use of this?
I think this takes the some of the ZSphere + Adaptive Skin work out of the equation. Adaptive Skin only goes so far, then you need to start the modeling. This method appears Less about the ideal AS setting and more about layering mass + musculature to produce that skin - the whole time remaining editable.
It would appear you can go back and re-edit that same model to produce a variant faster or new model much faster than the current ZS+AS system. I just wonder if there are negative values to produce defined depressions and sockets.

rblitz7
08-13-2009, 11:10 PM
If this is Zbrush 3.5...

Then whats in it for 4? :D
that's what I was thinking. I guess we just have to wait and see.

John-S
08-13-2009, 11:58 PM
I know the perception is that if they charged more.. You get product better product much sooner. That's definitely not the case from experience. I've quoted my price to my clients and they say.. oh.. we wanted to spend more.. we don't want a cheap product.. I say oh.. I didn't know you wanted THAT kind of product.. I raise the price.. they get the same product. Both are happy.

I have an established system that works for me. Paying me more, will probably not make me change my system. But, if paying me more money, makes you feel better. Then I'm happy to take your money.

Changing the system could actually hinder the development of my product. Asking that they charge more for a product may not make a difference. Except in that they will have more money and you less.

Hell, I don't think I should be telling you this. It's a nice little business secret that few know about. :)
People can do that yes... but its also the natural progression of business and products. Especially for a company that only offers 1 product. And Pixologic doesn't seem to be in the business of doing things such as you state. They seem to be more interested in taking Mudbox off the map if possible. So I doubt they would do as your saying... they would hopefully put it towards the proper place to help the expansion of their company.

I'm not saying to "raise" prices. I'm just trying to get them to charge the prices people expect to pay. When we purchase software then we expect to be charged for an upgrade. No-where does pixologic state that all major software upgrades will be free-of-charge. I'm sure most of us here wouldn't mind paying a few bucks for our software upgrades.

Could they "pocket the money"? Absolutely as it sounds like you would. Or, they COULD hire more developers to work on the horrible bugs that ZB has been plagued with for such LONG periods of time. Giving away software makes users happy but still stating "lets hope the bugs are fixed". Instead we are greeted with a whole new list of bugs... "but the softwares free". Pay more people, kill more bugs, speed up development. Thats a heck of alot better in my book then "free".

embodiedform
08-14-2009, 12:01 AM
Even better, what about voxel based?

Isn't this Pixologic's answer to 3D-coat's voxels? I don't understand the big advantage if you have to retopo anyway. It will be intriguing to see how this fits into the goZ workflow.

CHRiTTeR
08-14-2009, 12:12 AM
Isn't this Pixologic's answer to 3D-coat's voxels? I don't understand the big advantage if you have to retopo anyway. It will be intriguing to see how this fits into the goZ workflow.

Why would you have to retopo anyway? ;)

Sure you'll still need to retopo them now, because most pipelines are build around polys but there are small hints here and there on the net that voxels are going to have a comeback soon.

I know lots of gaming companies are experimenting with them for next gen stuff. (and probably building their next tech using voxels)

richcz3
08-14-2009, 12:19 AM
Autodesk 2Q Profit Drops 88% On Lower Sales, Restructuring (http://online.wsj.com/article/BT-CO-20090813-715779.html)

Now its clear that all forms of business are hard hit by the economic downturn but I can't see Autodesk (800 pound guerrilla) taking the time to relish their position of girth in the market.

In the meantime people who who purchased late into ZBrush 2 received ZB3 when released. We now get ZB 3.5 and then 4 at no charge.

Every feature they have shown is awesome aside from the fact that we are getting those features for nill, none, nada.
:bowdown:@ Pixologic. They must be doing something right or living on Ramen and operating out of shacks.

Bucket
08-14-2009, 12:55 AM
They seem to be more interested in taking Mudbox off the map if possible. So I doubt they would do as your saying... they would hopefully put it towards the proper place to help the expansion of their company.


We can make guesses all day as to why pixologic has chosen to give out free upgrades.. Free upgrades that were occurring before mudbox came around. So while we're making guesses. Here are a few more.
1. avoiding division of the zbrush community.
2. seeking to cater to a crowd that is not adjusted to paying for software upgrades. There are a lot zbrush users who do not have a background in 3d but in traditional sculpting and painting.
3. Some kind of personal belief that are making the world a better place or something....

hurray for guesses. :thumbsup:


Isn't this Pixologic's answer to 3D-coat's voxels? I don't understand the big advantage if you have to retopo anyway. It will be intriguing to see how this fits into the goZ workflow.

I'm sure zspheres 2 have been in development for some time. Voxels although fun to play with can have some serious speed issues overtime.

kelgy
08-14-2009, 01:04 AM
I tend to be a slob of a sculptor in real life and carve away as much as I build up, but I can see how having a build up method approach would be very inviting to some fence sitters in traditional sculpting who use that approach.

It looks like its checking its wrist watch for the time near the end of it.

Ordibble-Plop
08-14-2009, 02:32 AM
In the meantime people who who purchased late into ZBrush 2 received ZB3 when released. We now get ZB 3.5 and then 4 at no charge.

For me it was 1.23b - I bought ZB way back in August 2002 and haven't had to pay anything since, though I think this also goes for people with even earlier versions.

I think that looking at Pixologic in the context of 'typical' business models isn't very useful. I personally have the feeling that they (and particularly Ofer Alon) have much more emotional connection with their product than most other companies. That connection would probably be strained if Pixologic expanded too much. Some control of the way ZB develops could also be lost if they fell into the yearly development cycle paradigm of payed-for upgrades. As well as having a different philosophy to other companies, I personally see not charging for upgrades as a way for Pixologic to maintain some independence from users' demands, which allows them to develop ZB their own way in their own time.

Competition has certainly changed the playing field though. At one point Pixologic were going to charge for upgrading (I can't remember if this was going to be for v2 to v3) but then they had lots of delays and changed this to a free upgrade. They also became a lot more secretive and have started to patent their tech.

Kanga
08-14-2009, 03:03 AM
People can do that yes... but its also the natural progression of business and products. Especially for a company that only offers 1 product. And Pixologic doesn't seem to be in the business of doing things such as you state. They seem to be more interested in taking Mudbox off the map if possible. So I doubt they would do as your saying... they would hopefully put it towards the proper place to help the expansion of their company.

I'm not saying to "raise" prices. I'm just trying to get them to charge the prices people expect to pay. When we purchase software then we expect to be charged for an upgrade. No-where does pixologic state that all major software upgrades will be free-of-charge. I'm sure most of us here wouldn't mind paying a few bucks for our software upgrades.

Could they "pocket the money"? Absolutely as it sounds like you would. Or, they COULD hire more developers to work on the horrible bugs that ZB has been plagued with for such LONG periods of time. Giving away software makes users happy but still stating "lets hope the bugs are fixed". Instead we are greeted with a whole new list of bugs... "but the softwares free". Pay more people, kill more bugs, speed up development. Thats a heck of alot better in my book then "free".
Yes that is the attitude of those who say nay. Your post is based on assumptions. Pixologic does not have to accept a business model that is thrust at them. Take a wide eyed look at the internet,.. many consumers are not accepting standard models these days either. You or anyone I ever met has no idea how the ZB company works. I have no idea where their main source of revenue is and quite frankly they sure don't have to tell me. They are trying to knock off mudbox how? ZB caters well for the pro and for the starving artist. I think mudbox is dandy but I couldnt get it to run on my outdated system when I tried the demo. ZB just zipped along as usual though.

Pixologic is doing just fine without our business advice from the peanut gallery as you see. Where you get these tons of bugs idea is beyond me. I have had nothing but great support from Pixologic and its users over the years,... and I can assure you,... I can break anything :)

R10k
08-14-2009, 03:19 AM
Where you get these tons of bugs idea is beyond me. I have had nothing but great support from Pixologic and its users over the years,... and I can assure you,... I can break anything

Perhaps not, Kanga. I agree with your post in general, but there are a lot of bugs (speaking about the Windows version). I posted a huge list to Zbrushcentral a long time ago, and pretty much nothing has been fixed since then.

John-S
08-14-2009, 04:16 AM
of course my post is full of "assumptions", I wouldn't mean anything otherwise. I don't think I can personally "run the company better" or mean to compare them to a traditional business model. Maybe they are... maybe they aren't. Got no idea. All I can say is from an outsider view... it seems odvious from my point of view that charging for an upgrade would allow for more developement and better product. I didn't state that its "my way or the highway" or any such thing. I'll gladly accept my free upgrade believe me! But there is nothing wrong with me pointing out and making assumptions to my own beliefs as everyone else on the planet does ;)

Anyone who thinks ZBrush has no bugs though... whoa heavy!

And lets please not act like ZBrush business model is as Gods. They are not! They have been horrible, HORRIBLE with how they treated the mac users since the intel switch. They led users to believe things were coming that weren't etc. I have the emails from them stating such things specifically that I would be glad to forward.

On multiple occasions the users themselves had to find bug workarounds for things that didn't work and ZBrush for mac users wasn't even the full "zbrush" product when it did finally show its face.

HOWEVER, I do feel that Pixologic is now working hard to correct their mistakes with these matters and we all know the company can freaking innovate so... Lets be happy and give them a well deserved applause for this new feature :buttrock:

DaddyMack
08-14-2009, 04:34 AM
I can break anything :)

cracked me up bro!.. It's the first thing I do with the new toys, try to break 'em. This last string of releases from Pixo really shows the dedication of their crew to innovation with stability

DaddyMack
08-14-2009, 05:14 AM
Whoah! just watched the vid and it's blown my mind!.. I've been struggling and fumbling with clay (the dirt type) lately and this, along with 3d printing makes the particular workflow I am developing completely digital...

RESPECT!

Kanga
08-14-2009, 05:21 AM
cracked me up bro!.. It's the first thing I do with the new toys, try to break 'em. This last string of releases from Pixo really shows the dedication of their crew to innovation with stability

Hi Wook!
Sigh,... sad but true I am afraid. I tend to lapse into old habits and find new and wonderful hot key commands that instantly destroy the logic of the application I am trying to use. I am a software engineers worst nightmare. Of course to complete the debacle I squarely place the blame where it doesn't belong. I should be banned from computers, but they just keep letting me buy them :twisted: .

Cheers mate.

PS, yeah the sphere 2 film rocks hard,.... phew!

SilverCity
08-14-2009, 06:36 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, so this may have already been answered.

1. When will a Mac demo version be available?

2. Will ZB 3.5 still be $595 for new users? I'm hoping to have a demo to try ZB 3 before seeing a price increase for ZB 3.5 or 4.

Bucket
08-14-2009, 07:07 AM
I can break anything :)

He's not just talking about software.. He's talking about people also. We shall not challenge your ninja skittles oh mighty one. :bowdown:

mccg
08-14-2009, 08:38 AM
Hopefully they spent some more time on the basics.The 3D-viewport is a good and long requested move :thumbsup:
Did they talked about 64bit version?

cresshead
08-14-2009, 11:47 AM
counting down the last days of august....roll on ZBrush 3.5!

BigPixolin
08-14-2009, 02:29 PM
Hopefully they spent some more time on the basics.The 3D-viewport is a good and long requested move :thumbsup:
Did they talked about 64bit version?

Where did you read 3d viewport? All I have seen so far is "Improved perspective with a floor grid." Doesn't sound like a 3d veiwport unfortunately.

CHRiTTeR
08-14-2009, 02:39 PM
Where did you read 3d viewport? All I have seen so far is "Improved perspective with a floor grid." Doesn't sound like a 3d veiwport unfortunately.

Arent perspective and 3D the same thing basicly? ;)

SeaJackal
08-14-2009, 03:00 PM
Arent perspective and 3D the same thing basicly? ;)

3d allows you to have diferent perspectives, but I wouldn't say that 3d is perspective

Spin99
08-14-2009, 03:07 PM
That's a complete mindblow. So you can put clay on your mesh now.
I think the competition just went back to school.
Incredible how one piece of software keeps revolutionising Cg.

I can see it even standing by.

abuminalis
08-14-2009, 03:12 PM
I don't see any inovation, when they keep things like the most stupid navigation system of the planet the same. I still think pixologic does add features for the fanboys and ''americanize'' zbrush with features that will be useless in a real production.

pnoland
08-14-2009, 03:29 PM
I don't see any inovation, when they keep things like the most stupid navigation system of the planet the same. I still think pixologic does add features for the fanboys and ''americanize'' zbrush with features that will be useless in a real production.

3.5 is bringing right click navigation so if you're not using a tablet (as intended with zbrush...) it will probably be more comfortable to navigate around your model. If you don't like Zbrush then don't use it. Americanize? Really?

CHRiTTeR
08-14-2009, 03:57 PM
3d allows you to have diferent perspectives, but I wouldn't say that 3d is perspective

I know, you are right.
But what i meant is that in this case a perspective viewport = a 3d viewport.

Where did you read 3d viewport? All I have seen so far is "Improved perspective with a floor grid." Doesn't sound like a 3d veiwport unfortunately.

SeaJackal
08-14-2009, 04:11 PM
I know, you are right.
But what i meant is that in this case a perspective viewport = a 3d viewport.

To me it sounded more like a reference plane to help with orientation, to distinguish more if we are swimming up or down :)

grafikimon
08-14-2009, 04:25 PM
My guess for free updates I think is a two prong attack. One, if potential customers get all the new updates when they come out then they will buy the current version. Two, Free updates keeps current customers and can bring customers who went over to mudbox back to the fold.

In any case i will enjoy my free updates for as long as they last and will pay the upgrade price when that comes back.

I can't wait to try out the new zspheres, having sculpted with sculpty and wax it has a very familiar work flow of building up masses over an armature.

BigPixolin
08-14-2009, 04:54 PM
I know, you are right.
But what i meant is that in this case a perspective viewport = a 3d viewport.

Mudbox has a 3d perspective with cameras in 3d space.
zbrush has a 2.5d veiwport that is why objects change perspective based on objects in the veiwport. For me personally that is one of the big things Mudbox has that zbrush does not. I doubt zbrush will ever have a true 3d veiwport.

Stellios
08-14-2009, 06:01 PM
Arent perspective and 3D the same thing basicly? ;)
yeah really...


Anyway, all Hail Pixologic for being the white knight in evil kingdom of autodesk.

SheepFactory
08-14-2009, 06:07 PM
I don't see any inovation, when they keep things like the most stupid navigation system of the planet the same. I still think pixologic does add features for the fanboys and ''americanize'' zbrush with features that will be useless in a real production.

Did you even read what you wrote before you hit the submit button?

ThirdEye
08-14-2009, 06:18 PM
Did you even read what you wrote before you hit the submit button?

Shut up, you americanized bastard.

happy bday Ali ;)

meats
08-14-2009, 06:21 PM
Did you even read what you wrote before you hit the submit button?

I'm guessing that is just a snippet from his 10,000 page manifesto.

/happy b-day Ali

mushroomgod
08-14-2009, 06:24 PM
Looks like Autodesk bought the wrong company.

Geta-Ve
08-14-2009, 06:30 PM
Looks like Autodesk bought the wrong company.

They're not done yet. . .

:p

cresshead
08-14-2009, 06:50 PM
Happy B/day ali, looks like pixologic have a nice pressy on their way to you soon!

ThomasMahler
08-14-2009, 06:56 PM
Can't wait to give this a try :)

Every ZBrush thread here seems to be plagued by the exact same people complaining about the interface or the navigation... dudes, seriously, at least try to get used to it. It probably just takes a day anyway.

And if you still don't like it after a week, just use Mudbox. No biggie.

xtrm3d
08-14-2009, 07:07 PM
I still think pixologic does add features for the fanboys and ''americanize'' zbrush with features that will be useless in a real production.

whooo.. how do you ""americanize"" a software ? :banghead:

Pinoy McGee
08-14-2009, 07:30 PM
Every ZBrush thread here seems to be plagued by the exact same people complaining about the interface or the navigation...

At this point...it's kinda more a gesture of respect :)

It's not the same cgtalk zbrush news thread without the obligatory hate post by borat poseurs.

abuminalis
08-14-2009, 07:50 PM
How do you americanize a software? You just add some shiny stuff to cover a weak user interface that would require a complete re-write from scratch. I can't believe zbrush doesn't have a simple thing like saving a scene with the objects and lights in place, that should be their priority, not adding a paint plugin that have nothing to do with 3d, oh and a search engine for google pics in the interface?? will zbrush will make coffee too? you can't even paint the models with it decently, but you have a paint plugin now that doesn't work with 3d models. How many times i have dropped the ''tool'', yes the tool, the tool is the model you work with, but for some unknown reason it's called the ''tool'', everyone knows when you start to sculpt in real life you call the clay, the tool. How about making some zoom in your model? hey but wait the model is covering all the screen, now you can't use shortcut, because you have to click in the empty screen, you have to use side buttons to do this.......these small things add 50% speed increase to the workflow and are constantly neglected all the time!

gruhn
08-14-2009, 07:51 PM
Maybe a little longer than a day, but I was able to be pretty comfortable and start answering questions on cgtalk inside the space of the month long demo.

I did have a secret though...

Watch all the tutorials in the world and...

... now I don't want you to be shocked or anything ...

... work with the program.

BigPixolin
08-14-2009, 07:53 PM
At this point...it's kinda more a gesture of respect :)

It's not the same cgtalk zbrush news thread without the obligatory hate post by borat poseurs.


It goes both ways.
It isn't the same without some people kissing Pixo's butt with each announcement even though they didn't even get what was announced last time yet just because the next whatever version is free. If you want endless pages of WOOT's zbrushcentral is great for that. Zbrush is a amazing piece of software and upgrades are free so I can understand why it attracts that crowd.

mosconariz
08-14-2009, 07:56 PM
whooo.. how do you ""americanize"" a software ? :banghead:

Just add explosions and emty dialogs to a software :scream:

Seroga
08-14-2009, 08:01 PM
Great update..but i would like to see something like a brain impuls control for the next update :scream:

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/1043/470x3160.jpg

CHRiTTeR
08-14-2009, 08:02 PM
whooo.. how do you ""americanize"" a software ? :banghead:

Zbrush 3.5 will play the american anthem every time you start it

abuminalis
08-14-2009, 08:02 PM
Just add explosions and emty dialogs to a software :scream:

You add II, III, IV, V and reloaded version to the tools.

musashidan
08-14-2009, 08:04 PM
I don't see any inovation, when they keep things like the most stupid navigation system of the planet the same. I still think pixologic does add features for the fanboys and ''americanize'' zbrush with features that will be useless in a real production.

The pot calling the kettle black.You've used the word "Americanize" which is in itself an "Americanisation" in terms of spelling.
Even the spellchecker here is "Americanised" :banghead:

abuminalis
08-14-2009, 08:06 PM
whooo.. how do you ""americanize"" a software ? :banghead:


You add II, III, IV, V and reloaded version to the tools, and wait also for the navigation system II, and now including ''save scene'' from the creators of zbrush.

Nemoid
08-14-2009, 08:14 PM
I don't see any inovation, when they keep things like the most stupid navigation system of the planet the same. I still think pixologic does add features for the fanboys and ''americanize'' zbrush with features that will be useless in a real production.

actually zbrush navigation system is not stupid. its good and most important, its practical especially when used with a tablet. if you say they should implement nevigation customization as to mimic traditional 3D apps, i can agree, but definitely, ZB navigation isn't stupid at all.

pnoland
08-14-2009, 08:36 PM
whooo.. how do you ""americanize"" a software ? :banghead:

I don't know, apparently you make something useless. How insulting. :P

Geta-Ve
08-14-2009, 08:46 PM
actually zbrush navigation system is not stupid. its good and most important, its practical especially when used with a tablet. if you say they should implement nevigation customization as to mimic traditional 3D apps, i can agree, but definitely, ZB navigation isn't stupid at all.

I agree.

While ZB UI may be alien in comparison to other standard 3d apps, in the context of HOW ZB works it makes a lot of logical sense. The thing is that you can't open ZB and expect to model like you do in MB/Maya/Etc, ZB just works a lot differently at its core, and the UI reflects this difference.

ambient-whisper
08-14-2009, 08:56 PM
How do you americanize a software? You just add some shiny stuff to cover a weak user interface that would require a complete re-write from scratch. I can't believe zbrush doesn't have a simple thing like saving a scene with the objects and lights in place, that should be their priority, not adding a paint plugin that have nothing to do with 3d. You can't even paint the models with it. How many times i have drop the ''tool'', yes the tool, the tool is the model you work with, but for some unknown reason it's called the ''tool''. How about making some zoom in your model? hey but wait the model is covering all the screen, now you can't use shortcut, because you have to click in the empty screen, you have to use side buttons to do this.......these small things add 50% speed increase to the workflow and are constantly neglected all the time!

they can add any sort of plugin they want because a lot of the userbase is also 2d guys. concepting in zbrush is very common and having a an arsenal of 2d tools is very useful. The guy that made the 2d tools btw is acting completely separate from the 3d tool design guys anyway so its not like hes taking time away from developing for the 3d guys. plus this paint stuff could always be evolved to work on 3d models in the future so its always useful to develop certain technologies that could be migrated and extended beyond their basic original purpose.

about saving a scene with lights, materials, etc. i agree, but most 3d artists work with assets and the more i use zbrush the less i care about having a scene with all that stuff. reason i say this is because zbrush 3.2 has a lot of fixes of what you say. so having things like separate textures for each object is already in there, and having a way to rotate the viewport when your cursor is over the model is possible as well. but saying those things would speed you up by 50%.. i really doubt it. i mean do you spend time making good sculpts or do you always work in mollecular levels of a model and waste time in over detailing. saving a "tool" is no different than going to file save.. so theres no time change there at all, considering that you don't need to save every two seconds due to zbrushes decent stability. plus theres shortcuts for it anyway so theres no time lost.

where time is lost is when you need to do some technical stuff like reprojecting, and setting stuff up. but the bulk of the work is sculpting and for that it works great as it is considering the bulk of the work is pressing down the cursor on the model.. and that is the same as everywhere else.

im not saying its perfect but people seem hellbent on something that makes the smallest difference in the end. a real perspective view would add nothing as there is already perspective in zbrush ( it just works better on OSX than it does on windows ). considering you dont animate within zbrush, you dont really need a real FOV and such. ideally youd have the base models made where you have your cameras already set up. so proportions would already be set up for you anyway.

theres many things that pixologic should fix WAYYY before the viewport gets touched.

things like making reprojecting more reliable and less problem prone around borders, or doing things like texturing spec, and bump and colour at the same time.

stuff like that would make a much more profound difference for everyone than changing the viewport from something that isnt completely broken.


the main issue right now is.. you probably havent changed the UI to something youd like.
and you are using a really old version of zbrush, so you are mentioning stuff that has already been changed but you just dont have access to. just wait for 3.5 to be released and come back with a revaluation.

Airflow
08-14-2009, 08:59 PM
I agree.

While ZB UI may be alien in comparison to other standard 3d apps, in the context of HOW ZB works it makes a lot of logical sense. The thing is that you can't open ZB and expect to model like you do in MB/Maya/Etc, ZB just works a lot differently at its core, and the UI reflects this difference.


And that difference is stupid, not zbrush. Zbrush is awesome II. Add explosion here..

aadams
08-14-2009, 09:11 PM
the only thing i dont like about zbrush navigation was the zoom...but I got over that.

what I would really dig is more focus on hard surface modelling and easier ala 3dcoat retopology.

the navaigation was made to spin models on a potters wheel...as a wings3d user I like the idea of not having to press a keyboard key to rotate the model.

also as a maya user who started with houdini...maya has a way off making you do things a certain way...and sometimes that is a little bogus.

I for one was stupified with the new zsphere's...I was just hoping to find time around christmas to have some alone time with that type of technology...

DaddyMack
08-14-2009, 10:03 PM
lol lol and lol at this thread guys... You know who you are :buttrock: Thanks for the morning chuckles

to the interface complainers... I've taught ZBrush to seasoned industry vets and they had more trouble with it than my 7 yr old daughter... It's not the interface that is the problem, it's the expectation of the user that it 'should' work a certain way. Once users 'give in' and 'listen' to the App ZBrush is an absolute dream. Sincerely the most elegant and intuitive piece of tech I've come across in over 20 yrs of being a nerd.

Next time you see Zbrush as 'hard' picture a 7 yr old girl fluidly sculpting and texturing on a tablet pc :p should change yr perspective

polygun
08-14-2009, 10:17 PM
lol lol and lol at this thread guys... You know who you are :buttrock: Thanks for the morning chuckles

to the interface complainers... I've taught ZBrush to seasoned industry vets and they had more trouble with it than my 7 yr old daughter... It's not the interface that is the problem, it's the expectation of the user that it 'should' work a certain way. Once users 'give in' and 'listen' to the App ZBrush is an absolute dream. Sincerely the most elegant and intuitive piece of tech I've come across in over 20 yrs of being a nerd.

Next time you see Zbrush as 'hard' picture a 7 yr old girl fluidly sculpting and texturing on a tablet pc :p should change yr perspective

100% true, I thought zbrush was terrible for years and I finally gave in. It really does change your way of thinking

Spin99
08-14-2009, 10:26 PM
xtrm3d[/b]]whooo.. how do you ""americanize"" a software ? :banghead:You pour some ketchup on it and add a link to the MS help file. A Vista ready badge would also work? How about a rebate coupon and free "American Beauty" video rental. Nah just sell it on Amazon. Wait I don't know. Ok quit then. Lol.

Stellios
08-14-2009, 10:31 PM
How many times i have dropped the ''tool'', yes the tool, the tool is the model you work with, but for some unknown reason it's called the ''tool'', everyone knows when you start to sculpt in real life you call the clay, the tool. How about making some zoom in your model? hey but wait the model is covering all the screen, now you can't use shortcut, because you have to click in the empty screen, you have to use side buttons to do this.......these small things add 50% speed increase to the workflow and are constantly neglected all the time!

ive never had a problem with zooming, just click anywhere off to the side of the screen and ull be ok. and for the record they are changing the zoom button.

Whats the problem with calling it a tool? Its pretty definitive and not confusing at all.

The UI in zbrush is just fine, god forbid people take a couple hours to learn it. and guess what else, dont like it? customize it!

cresshead
08-14-2009, 10:49 PM
re u.i. i read all the stories on how awful the u.i. was on zbrush...and didn't even demo it for ages...then after seeing the angler vid back in zbrush 2 in maybe 2005...thought..what the heck, this thing is just amazing..have to try it.

i took about 3 or 4 days to adapt to it after that it just seems prety sensible esp if you get some good training vids to hold your hand on the learning curve from DT or gnomon.

if your flexible enough you'll love zbrush, if however your stuck in your ways and only wish software to follow what you know from the past then that rigid thinking will become a wall, stopping you from entering the wonderful world of zbrush.

cookepuss
08-14-2009, 11:04 PM
100% true, I thought zbrush was terrible for years and I finally gave in. It really does change your way of thinking
Being able to fully appreciate & enjoy ZBrush & even ZSpheres is funny thing. You can spend months or even years hating the program and the way it works. However, when you finally "get it", it's like a flicking a switch in your brain. When that 1st thing in ZBrush makes sense, everything falls into place almost instantaneously.

Now, it's like my main 3D app, which I just love, is no longer artist friendly enough. It's a profound, but very weird feeling.

As far as the zoom goes, I've ever had a problem with it. No weird bugs in that area. Navigation, especially on my Cintiq, is fluid and not at all cumbersome. Moving back to C4D, which has Maya style navigation, only takes a brief second to get used to again. This stuff becomes second nature after a while.

John-S
08-14-2009, 11:20 PM
Its so annoying when politics and words like "americanize" keep coming into threads on a CG Site but I guess this time it at least is giving me a laugh at all the reply's.

As far as the UI. I hated it because I couldn't just open the demo and play like I could with most other software. Most 3D apps work very similiar so you can figure out the basics on your own pretty easy typically.

I finally decided to ignore the UI and join the ZBrush force like everyone else since mudbox had less features and wasn't mac compatible (although was about a week later... ha ha). I took most of the wonderful Escape Studios online course and everything started clicking.

I still look forward to them changing the UI at some point but it really hasn't been painful to me after learning it for a couple days. The "tool saving" seems a little different too me but I really don't think that could "slow you down" or anything.

I wish I had more time right now. I don't know ZBrush WELL yet compared to others but all I wanna do is play with ZSphere's in preparation for this new release!

ThirdEye
08-15-2009, 12:15 AM
Can we stop talking about americanisation please? Let's stick to the topic.

About the workflow/gui: Zbrush's probably isn't that bad but i have to say that if it was that great Mudbox wouldn't even exist.

ambient-whisper
08-15-2009, 12:46 AM
Can we stop talking about americanisation please? Let's stick to the topic.

About the workflow/gui: Zbrush's probably isn't that bad but i have to say that if it was that great Mudbox wouldn't even exist.

i think its just a matter of preference than being great or not.

wings versus silo. two very different flavors to the same thing. mudbox guys wanted something like maya, and they made it. its as simple as that.

elvis75k
08-15-2009, 01:32 AM
I only hate when the same menu option ia available here there and everywhere.
This happend in Maya and in lightwave as well, so many other app -
zbrush definitely wins and the user may fall lost, thus important option are hidden in deeper menus embedded in some tiny buttons..
Back on the topic, i feel very positive about the zspheres2..
My guess they will add some cool preset with some complicated setup
to play in the spare-time and the new splash screen will come with stars and stripes :)
Nobel prize for pixologic!

gundog
08-15-2009, 02:31 AM
not quite as freeform as 3d-coat, but it's a nice start.

Lone Deranger
08-15-2009, 05:00 AM
Really? You have used Zspheres 2 already?

not quite as freeform as 3d-coat, but it's a nice start.

Magnus81
08-15-2009, 07:33 AM
Really? You have used Zspheres 2 already?
OUCH! A shot straight to the batteries!

R10k
08-15-2009, 07:50 AM
not quite as freeform as 3d-coat, but it's a nice start.

You know, freeform does not always equal better.... and I like 3D Coat.

hotknife
08-15-2009, 10:39 AM
We have had a lot of work placement students this year - teenagers aged between 13 and 15 with little or no know knowledge of 3D, just an interest in it. All were able to sit down in front of Zbrush, navigate a model and start adjusting/creating etc. within a couple of hours. None of them complained about the interface - they just got on with it. To a standard that was scary to watch after such a limited time.
The real judge of a software package must be the work that is produced with it and the ease with which that work is created. Looking at the gallery and the work produced with Zbrush it is of the highest quality in the world and the fact that a model is refered to as a tool is neither here nor there as is a slightly different navgation system.

Nemoid
08-15-2009, 11:12 AM
another thing not to forget is that Zbrush is actually a 2.5D program.

It started for illustration purposes and was conceived around the concept of pixol, which is 2.5D. Even the UI and concepts like tool instead of object reflect this.

What confuses many 3D artists though, is that you can sculpt with it, you can manipulate 3D meshes and more, but taken as a whole, the app is still a 2.5D app for illustration, and Pixologic doesn't forget this when they does plugins like Paintstop.

BTW, Pixologic introduced in time great tools to help 3D artists work better with the app, in connection with traditional 3D apps, sculpt details onto pre made meshes, extract disp and normal maps, but also color meshes, or give life to maquettes like you can do working with Z spheres.
In this sense, things like GoZ and Zspheres II bring to the artist several tools to give life better and in less time to their creations.

Z Brush helps artists to make 3D better: it doesn't replace 3D programs. (at least for now)

MotleyPete
08-15-2009, 11:49 AM
Re: Right-click navigation in ZBrush 3.5.

There is already right-click navigation in the Mac version (3.2) and it's pretty good. You can click anywhere you like, even on your model and combined with the alt and ctrl keys you get panning and zooming and whatnot.

It's very easy to get used to and it works well with a tablet pen.

ThirdEye
08-15-2009, 12:45 PM
wings versus silo. two very different flavors to the same thing.

2 different prices too :p

ThirdEye
08-15-2009, 12:47 PM
another thing not to forget is that Zbrush is actually a 2.5D program.

Honestly who gives a damn? It could even be a 4.6D program, i don't care, all i want is an app that works and doesn't make me jump through hoops to get the job done.

Kerem
08-15-2009, 12:49 PM
Why do I own zbrush and never use it? WTF is my problem. Can't get motivated after work these days.

This looks amazing.

Same here :(

New features are really amazing. I've never worked with Z-sphere tough, always thought by the tutorials I have to model base mesh from another 3D application.

That Z-sphere means that I can use only Zbrush to create entire character w/o leaving thw software ?

Plus I have materials & rendering DVD for Zbrush which I still didn't looked at. Perhaps I can make my render on it too and throw other 3D applications away (at least for character modeling)

Laa-Yosh
08-15-2009, 01:57 PM
wings versus silo. two very different flavors to the same thing. mudbox guys wanted something like maya, and they made it. its as simple as that.

I'm sorry but I have to argue here a bit ;)

Mudbox guys wanted something that could scale to feature film VFX levels. They wanted more than 1 displacement texture per model, more than 1 texture layer, PSD support and so on. The fact that it's like a cross between Maya and Photoshop is a superficial detail.

Mudbox really lacks a lot of Zbrush features because of this difference in approach. No transpose, no Zspheres, no projection master. But what it has can be taken a lot further then in Zbrush... you can get higher poly counts on a 64 bit machine with enough RAM, you can do proper texture painting, and so on.
Which is why I'd call Mudbox the professional app, and Zbrush is in the middle ground towards enthusiast software. It's far from useless but you can get to a point where it just isn't enough. Like if you'd want to make some Godzilla like creature to destroy a city that has to look good in close-ups as well... you can try the multi displacement plugin but it really is a pain to work with.

BigPixolin
08-15-2009, 02:37 PM
Honestly who gives a damn? It could even be a 4.6D program, i don't care, all i want is an app that works and doesn't make me jump through hoops to get the job done.

Me. It's great for you you don't mind working in 2.5d. Why attack people for wanting the comfortability to work with a 3d model in 3d space like every other 3d program in the pipeline? It's great that you don't mind working in 2d with a 3d model with the illusion of it being 3d or adding subtools and watching your sculpt distort or seeing half your model disappear into the canvas. The app works and gets the job done beautifully and I am still going to love using it.
I would just prefer 3d space since I am more comforatble working with a 3d model in 3d space. Why do some people have such a problem with other people wanting to work like that?

Airflow
08-15-2009, 03:28 PM
As Laa-Yosh mentioned, they are both seperate tools for different types of users.
Zsphere2 is a great additon, but what does it bring to the table in a production enviroment that usually involves other software, that isnt already catered for?. Rigging, sculpting? Its a new feature, Im holding judgment till Ive used it. To me it impresses those who have need for riggin in an alll encompasing app, same with painted metaballs. I can see people sculpting muscle strands with this, then retopoing and using this to pose their model, but beyond still images, Im not sure what the benifits will be and what the workflow will be, so Ill gush after I have tried it, not before.

hotknife
08-15-2009, 04:27 PM
and Zbrush is in the middle ground towards enthusiast software. It's far from useless but you can get to a point where it just isn't enough.

Would you call ILM enthusiasts ? They seem quite happy to use ZB for oscar winning effects. How has ZB held you back in the past, you sound as if you've taken the software as far as it can be taken and it wasn't enough for you ? A high poly count is far from the only thing to consider. I didn't find the painting tools in MB that great to be honest and you need a fairly high spec machine just to get the thing working to a usable standard.

ThirdEye
08-15-2009, 04:32 PM
Me. It's great for you you don't mind working in 2.5d. Why attack people for wanting the comfortability to work with a 3d model in 3d space like every other 3d program in the pipeline? It's great that you don't mind working in 2d with a 3d model with the illusion of it being 3d or adding subtools and watching your sculpt distort or seeing half your model disappear into the canvas. The app works and gets the job done beautifully and I am still going to love using it.
I would just prefer 3d space since I am more comforatble working with a 3d model in 3d space. Why do some people have such a problem with other people wanting to work like that?

I think you totally misunderstood what i was saying. What i was saying is: the 2.5D excuse is a poor one, they could even call it xyzD, i don't care, i want it to behave "normally" so i can get the job done. My main problem with Z is i never understood its workflow, it just feels alien to me. That's why i've always preferred Mudbox.

Wizdoc
08-15-2009, 05:21 PM
These new ZSpheres look great.

I do admit that I have limited experience using the old ZSpheres, but I never got anything out of them that didn't look like something you'd drag behind the shed and put out of its misery. If I used too few spheres, the form looked terrible, and if I used a lot, then it looked somewhat passable but then I'd lose the versatility of the ZSpheres and was better off doing the basemesh elsewhere in an another application.

womanonfire
08-15-2009, 05:54 PM
Re: Right-click navigation in ZBrush 3.5.

There is already right-click navigation in the Mac version (3.2) and it's pretty good. You can click anywhere you like, even on your model and combined with the alt and ctrl keys you get panning and zooming and whatnot.

It's very easy to get used to and it works well with a tablet pen.


what the..?!
jeeez i never would have noticed that if you hadn't told me!
:banghead:

thats so coooooool! :applause: thanks!
(yeah, i know, RTFM.)

richcz3
08-15-2009, 05:55 PM
ZBrush as a program was a game changer for the 3D apps industry. I can't think of another app that has seen such a rate of adoption by people in such varied industries. Yes, no doubt navigating the UI can be a chore, but if you work in it enough, it comes together and the end results can be stellar.

The gallery output since 2.0 in Pixologics site and ZBrush central are testament to its depth and capacity from a variety of users. It's becoming more well rounded and feature rich when other apps bring only minor updates to the table and charge for full updates. Yes it does have its short comings, but damn when they introduce new video updates, they rarely fail to impress. I'll take that fee update - thank you very much :deal:

mccg
08-15-2009, 10:49 PM
Where did you read 3d viewport? All I have seen so far is "Improved perspective with a floor grid." Doesn't sound like a 3d veiwport unfortunately.

After a 2nd look it maybe still 2.5 :shrug:

100% true, I thought zbrush was terrible for years and I finally gave in. It really does change your way of thinking

Does this contain the Zoom/Rotate-function?
I would really like to get the secret key to get used to that.


Anyway good to see innovation passing autodesks deathstar update by update.

Laa-Yosh
08-16-2009, 03:05 AM
Would you call ILM enthusiasts ?

Most of the ILM artists I know about have preferred Mudbox...

If you take a thorough look at the Pixologic site, you'll find two things:
- they've only talked about using Zbrush on Pirates 2, several years ago
- and they've hacked it apart completely to fit it into their pipeline (seriously, I challange you to understand what exactly they've done because I've failed to completely grasp it)

you sound as if you've taken the software as far as it can be taken and it wasn't enough for you

I am not allowed to talk about unreleased projects.
But it sure gave us a lot of problems on a past one and we had to use a lot of DOF to mask out the lack of detail on a character.

cresshead
08-16-2009, 03:22 AM
If you take a thorough look at the Pixologic site, you'll find two things:
- they've only talked about using Zbrush on Pirates 2, several years ago
- and they've hacked it apart completely to fit it into their pipeline (seriously, I challange you to understand what exactly they've done because I've failed to completely grasp it)


yeah...totally :rolleyes:

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=120491
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=149216

http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=90513

ThirdEye
08-16-2009, 05:35 AM
What is that supposed to prove?

SheepFactory
08-16-2009, 05:42 AM
What is that supposed to prove?


The hilarious thing is the assasins creed cinematic he linked is done by digic. :D

Laa-Yosh
08-16-2009, 05:49 AM
And I've been talking about ILM specificaly...

cresshead
08-16-2009, 05:51 AM
And I've been talking about ILM specificaly...
http://www.zbrushcentral.com/zbc/attachment.php?attachmentid=90513

Airflow
08-16-2009, 06:37 AM
Ok, both mudbox and zbrush have their pros and cons. Everybody knows this. We recently used Zbrush to do some dinosaurs and it failed to do much of what was asked, mudbox has its flaws too. It really shouldent be discussed here, but I feel that the fanboyism should also be minimalised too. Just wait and see if its the best thing since sliced bread. Its the only measured action to take, rather than panning it or having babies from it.

Bucket
08-16-2009, 06:49 AM
Ok, both mudbox and zbrush have their pros and cons. Everybody knows this. We recently used Zbrush to do some dinosaurs and it failed to do much of what was asked, mudbox has its flaws too. It really shouldent be discussed here, but I feel that the fanboyism should also be minimalised too. Just wait and see if its the best thing since sliced bread. Its the only measured action to take, rather than panning it or having babies from it.


Yep. You should be a forum mod. :thumbsup: (but maybe you have better things to do)

Nemoid
08-16-2009, 09:04 AM
Ok so what improvements exactly Pixologic should make in ZBrush to make it fit better into a production pipeline according to you guys? It could be a good argument to talk about.


This being said, i think that Zbrush as a whole is an awesome program.
For example it is good to build maquettes directly into it from scratch.
Zspheres 2 seem to extend this capability even more. Just lay down your armature, bulid muscles over it, then obtain a skin, sculpt it, detail it, maybe also extract some subtols from it. Retopo it, paint it, and export meshes and maps to use it into other 3D traditional packages for animation purposes...

hotknife
08-16-2009, 01:36 PM
What is that supposed to prove?

I think it highlights the fact that professionals are using ZB, in the hands of professionals they are creating high quality work and that it is far from being enthusiast software.

ThirdEye
08-16-2009, 01:48 PM
I think it highlights the fact that professionals are using ZB, in the hands of professionals they are creating high quality work and that it is far from being enthusiast software.

Do you still believe advertising? Not saying that Zbrush is an app for amateurs, don't get me wrong, but i've stopped trusting commercials long ago.

Laa-Yosh
08-16-2009, 02:07 PM
Ok so what improvements exactly Pixologic should make in ZBrush to make it fit better into a production pipeline according to you guys? It could be a good argument to talk about.

As far as I've heard they are addressing the most important issues: support for multiple texture maps per object, increased efficiency for inter-application workflow (GoZbrush), and so on.
It will probably keep all the stuff a larger studio doesn't really need, but then again we don't know how many of Pixologic's customers are from small or one-man studios. Judging by the responses to a single word (begins with 'e') here, a lot ;) so it makes sense that they're adding features aimed for them. Like that integrated google image browser... yikes.


Here's the ILM interview I've been talking about:
http://www.pixologic.com/interview/archive/ilm-pirates/


And some final notes before I unsubscribe from this thread... the one big feature that keeps us on Zbrush is its simple map extraction. On paper one would think that Mudbox is the better, having the ability to use arbitrary meshes.
But in practice the raytrace-based approach has more constraints (you need to spread the fingers out, open the mouth etc. - making it pretty hard to evaluate a character) and takes more tries to get right. So while we don't know how exactly Zbrush works (lack of proper documentation and error messages is another problem, by the way) it still is better suited for mass production. Just click a few buttons and its done...

Laa-Yosh
08-16-2009, 02:15 PM
Do you still believe advertising? Not saying that Zbrush is an app for amateurs, don't get me wrong, but i've stopped trusting commercials long ago.

It's obviously not about amateurism, but it's obvious that Zbrush is designed to work as a single application for illustration, that's its main purpose. A professional illustrator can create wonderful stuff in Zbrush without ever having to touch any other program.

But 3D animation studios need a lot more than that, so they want Zbrush to work as a specialized tool for a certain stage of their pipeline. They only use a smaller subset of the program, but all the time, so the inefficiencies and unfinished features are far more problematic to them.

This division of the user base is probably a dilemma for Pixologic, but they seem to prefer the illustrator kind of users, taking 4 years to fix the specialized workflow related stuff. Being the first app of its kind has allowed them to gain a foothold and the free updates also go a long way in keeping studios from changing to Mudbox.

R10k
08-16-2009, 02:19 PM
If anyone cares: applications for me fall into two categories- those that always seem to succeed at the tasks they're assigned to, and others that always seem to fall just short of allowing the job to get done. Zbrush, as good as it is feature-wise, often seems to fall short in some way or another during the job. If I'm pressed for time, I rarely think, "I must try Zbrush!". Maybe it's because I'm not the greatest artist in the world, but I can't help feel Zbrush is nowhere near ready to enter my 'can do' applications category.

That's why when, as good as this new tool looks, I'm not getting overly excited about any of the new advances coming in Zbrush 3.5/4.

Airflow
08-16-2009, 02:36 PM
Point in case, I just started a quick test for a tutorial Im doing for Mavenseed. I sculpt a cube, start to retopo it, on the second save of the tool, zbrush crashes. Now this manages to happen to alot of people. Id classify this as one of the failures of the software. Mudbox isnt a saint, but I have never lost work due to a crash whilst saving out your work.

Ps
I have Autosave which fixes the issue, but this should have been sorted by Pixo long ago.

BigPixolin
08-16-2009, 03:30 PM
I think it highlights the fact that professionals are using ZB, in the hands of professionals they are creating high quality work and that it is far from being enthusiast software.
Zbrush started as a toy for enthusiasts and evolved into the app that is able to produce profesional work you see today which still in fact has a large enthusiast user group.

BigPixolin
08-16-2009, 03:33 PM
I think you totally misunderstood what i was saying. What i was saying is: the 2.5D excuse is a poor one, they could even call it xyzD, i don't care, i want it to behave "normally" so i can get the job done. My main problem with Z is i never understood its workflow, it just feels alien to me. That's why i've always preferred Mudbox.

I think I did misunderstand you. I thought we were talking the actual limitations of working with a 3d model in 2.5d not just the wording.:shrug:

CHRiTTeR
08-16-2009, 04:30 PM
Many professional houses do use zbrush and its not just advertising. You are right not to trust any form of advertising though.

But it is indeed a problem that zbrush was build as a 2.5D painting program (2D with a z/depth channel) and thus the UI is originally designed towards that funcionality.
But then they added those amazing 3D mesh sculpting abilities and now ppl want it to specialize more towards modeling/sculpting.
So basicly now the problem is they need to implement that stuff into a program originally designed for 'painting'.

Sure they could reorganise things to work more naturally and intuitive, but thats a lot of work.
Also, keep in mind while that sounds like a great idea, if you do it to sudden (from one version to the next) ppl will feel unfamiliar and wont find old their favorite tools back, etc... so ppl will start to complain about that. Its best to do it in a step by step process and i hope thats what they're doing.

Stankluv
08-16-2009, 07:29 PM
I think zb should have a default "I am a 3d artist" setting that keeps things in the "edit object" mode by default at start...maybe make the 2.5d stuff the secondary function...have that as a function on the start splash screen.

I spent the first week trying to figure out how to stop drawing my model over and over...The "t" button is what most people that complain about the workflow are missing.

habernir
08-16-2009, 07:40 PM
i think that the problem that the people are complain about in the workflow in zbrush linked to the way that zbrush work (2.5D).
from my point of view to change the workflow in zbrush like some of the people want to will impact the need to change all zbrush programming and if i right and pixology do that then alot of the people will complain about the new interface becuase they was Familiarize with the old
interface soo you have two problems now.soo it doesn't pay off.
and about ZSpheres 2 pixology doing wonderful work .

ngrava
08-16-2009, 07:41 PM
Man, if I had a dollar for each time I heard, "I tried using ZBrush but I couldn't get past the workflow/UI." I'd have... I don't know, 13$ or so? ;)

Seriously though, I couldn't agree more that it's got a wanky interface and befuddling workflow. But, there are things that I can do in that program that I just can't do in others. Z-Spheres for instance.

Nemoid
08-16-2009, 08:44 PM
this is an interesting discussion!
Actually, i think both Zbrush and Mudbox are good programs.

As i said earlier i find that Zbrush is more an illustration package, as a whole and this reflects onto its UI and even in its workflow. Mudbox , in the other hand was born as a sculpting and painting program since the start.

in Zbrush we find features which make a sense especially considering the app as a whole, for example transpose, and z spheres. Materials, too.

I always found Z spheres to be a wonderful tool for laying down concepts for creatures and meshes. Its true that they don't create the best geometry, especially if you consider animation, but they allow for a good foundation.

Z spheres II seem to be a good evolution on that especialy because they'll bring more power and ease of use for them to create believable shapes.

Hopefully this will allow a smoother process from start to end where users will be able to give life to complex shapes to be sculpted with good amount of detail, and then retopo them to prepare meshes for animation.

regarding UI : it has some customization options allow users to streamline workflow as well.
It also surely could be changed by Pixologic in its organization a bit to better fit 3D artists like Mudbox does, but i think they will nver put the 2.5 aspect of the program 100% aside.

so, apart from that , i think the difference can be mainly a matter of features the app provides to the user and should provide for better fit in production, things like

layers for texturing
several textures per object
multi UV support
unwrap tools from within the app
more reliable reprojecting
possibility to texturing spec, bump and colour at the same time
real 3d environment
enhanced retopology tools
voxel support

you could add features to this list too, as i am curious to know what else could be great to make zbrush fit better for a production.:)

Airflow
08-16-2009, 11:44 PM
General bug fix.
Stability, as in not crashing during operations, saving out tool and loading it up again to find missing uv's, workarounds for exporting displacements.
Generally a tighter app that stands up in production for all users.

Ordibble-Plop
08-16-2009, 11:48 PM
It's obviously not about amateurism, but it's obvious that Zbrush is designed to work as a single application for illustration, that's its main purpose.

It also recently seems to be pushing heavily into the concepting arena, which is perhaps where Pixologic is going to emphasize the difference between ZB and Mudbox - I don't know Mudbox at all, but is it still the case that it has no mesh generating capabilities? In contrast, it seems much of Pixologic's recent effort in ZB development has gone in this directon.

John-S
08-17-2009, 03:18 AM
Wow. I'm really not sure what to think of this thread anymore. One minute I'm thinking that ZBrush is the most widely adopted 3D app of all time at this point for modeling.

Mudbox was a baby but very cool and promising. However its been out a while now and still seems to mainly only have one person who's not even an autodesk employee developing.

Now it seems like this thread has turned into ZBrush being only a pro illustrators tool with ILM people barely using it and dislikeing it.

So... where are we now. ZSphere's are cool but Mudbox is now the preferred program for professionals in a pro vfx environment?

Seems like both programs have alot of features missing to fit EVERYBODY's pipelines. PIXOLOGIC seems trying hard to do that with go-z, etc. While um... DARTH seems to be doing this for mudbox?

Software is frustrating and confusing. Can someone get me a pass to ILM so I can walk in there personally and start interviewing the artists please???

Poisen
08-17-2009, 04:36 AM
Take heart John-S,

3-4 Mudbox X-spurts does not a whole industry make.
nor do they speak for anyone other than themselves.. ;)

John-S
08-17-2009, 05:06 AM
LOL... sounded maybe harsher then meant. I was just trying to point out that the second I think I have a solid understanding on whats going on and what people think of specific software titles and companies... I suddenly get a wake up call.

More power to BOTH companies and I certainly wouldn't want to insult MB developers based off my statement. I know they work hard too. I'm just pointing out the words that are getting thrown around in this thread. Not my personal feelings on it.

:cool:

PS. Won't Autodesk or Apple just end up purchasing ZBrush anyways? Then kill it...LOL.

Back on Topic... Pixologic, PLEASE don't be late on the Mac release. I'm begging you!!!

CrazyMatt
08-17-2009, 05:34 AM
If Mudbox users later get a true "GoZ" like feature. I'll be happy for them.
If Autodesk decides to continue to play catch up with what ZBrush has, that Mudbox can use. I'll be happy for the users.

In the end, i'll be happier to have less of a mudbox community involved in zbrush. Creating countless threads of bickering about it's UI, Stability, ect. for their own purposes. :surprised

As for me I too would complain that Mudbox has a horrible UI for on the fly sculpting. As for myself being a wacom user and a Cintiq one at that. I personally find holding "Alt" key just to rotate my view in the viewport. Rather annoying and painful overtime on my thumbs/fingers.

Personally I could care less about either apps ups & downs. I have chosen ZBrush to be my primary and I will stick with it. :buttrock:

hotknife
08-17-2009, 10:20 AM
Do you still believe advertising? Not saying that Zbrush is an app for amateurs, don't get me wrong, but i've stopped trusting commercials long ago.
Not sure what the ethics of advertising have to do with ZB but I do believe that ZB was used in production of Gears of War 1 and 2 - a bunch of enthusiasts using an illustration package !
And on that note - I don't think it's entirely relevant to judge software on what it was when it first appeared on the market however many years ago - more on where it is today and what it can do now.

Laa-Yosh
08-17-2009, 10:56 AM
We evaluate Zbrush on what it can do day after day. And just because it can be used for purposes other than it's been created for - and even used well - won't make it something different.

Making fun of other users here is childish, by the way. We're supposed to be professionals...

Poisen
08-17-2009, 11:13 AM
Well,
I was trying to be a professional.
But then i found out that i was just an enthusiastic illustrator using 2.5D crayons...:arteest:

Airflow
08-17-2009, 04:08 PM
I like how, all of a sudden I became a mudbox user moaning, or an x-pert. I posted a reasonable problem that users have with zbrush. Users including myself. I dont choose a side and stick to it, thats not very proffessional. If somthing dont work, it should be mentioned without fear of a software company collapising under the weight of angry protesters. Its a valid statement to make if a company has outstanding bugs, they should fix them, wherter is 3dsmax, maya, modo or mudbox, it dont matter. Give us new tools, but fix the old ones first please, is that too much to ask without being labeled a troublemaker ?
:)

Phrenzy84
08-17-2009, 04:21 PM
neither app is perfect.

Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

Zbrush wins in my eyes, but that is just me. They serve to two different demographics. The battle will never be won but users will be gained with the blending of the two sensibilities.

namely Innovation / Production output

so lets hope zbrush wont forget the production value of its software and make it so it wont have to bend in so many ways and lets hope mudbox thinks a little outside the box.

btw to stay on topic. ZSphere look amazing. Never been one for the zspheres but now.... this will change.

R10k
08-17-2009, 04:23 PM
And on that note - I don't think it's entirely relevant to judge software on what it was when it first appeared on the market however many years ago...

It's perfectly relevant. The foundation Zbrush is built on affects how the features on top of it function. Point in case- Paintstop, which feels slow and clumsy to use, without things like canvas rotation, because it's not much more than a Zscript. (note: the point isn't that Paintstop sucks- just mentioning as an example)

Poisen
08-17-2009, 05:30 PM
i dont have a problem with people and their personal opinions.
"i happen to have a few of my own"

but some here seem uncontent with their "personal" opinions, and insist on speaking for whole companies,large segments of a software user base, or even seemingly huge sections of the planet all based on their own "personal" opinions and experiences.
and grouping a whole software user base into "low end enthusiast/amature illustrator group" just because of the software that they use, that is pretty rude and uncalled for IMHO.

it just sounds like an all expenses paid ego trip on the SS "my software is better than yours" cruise ship, with a heaping helping of self-serving elitism thrown in for good measure.

and BTW,
i do have a very firm understanding of being both a professional and being very respectful to others and their opinions.

but that is very much a two way street.
fling poo at me and mine, and i will for sure pick up a brown bisquit or 2 and sling it right back atcha with a very professional gleam in my eye! :scream:!


and as for Zbrushes "crazed"-"useless"-"insane" and "americanized" UI, i hope the damn thing plays "stars and stripes" and has little zsphere american eagles flapping around on its spash screen with a red white and blue UI and even smaller buttons and sliders. ;)

Laa-Yosh
08-17-2009, 05:40 PM
and grouping a whole software user base into "low end enthusiast/amature illustrator group" just because of the software that they use, that is pretty rude and uncalled for IMHO.


In case you didn't notice, most of us criticizing Zbrush here are active users as well. So by your logic I'm amateur and low end too 'cause I said so! Or maybe I didn't?

Nemoid
08-17-2009, 07:23 PM
The most important thing is having the software playing well, and be good for the needs of a production, as said.
Mainly, in production for 3d Zbrush can be used for concepts, and , i think, more and more for building up maquettes, and obviousy also to detail and paint pre constructed mesh.
Also, we have to consider that different production pipelines use different tools, even proprietary tools.

So one pipeline could use bodypaint/photoshop to texture models, and mudbox to sculpt details on prebuilt meshes.
Another pipeline could use Zbrush to build a 3d concept, then obtain a good mesh from it also within other apps, then return in zbrush and further detail/paint. Same could happen with Mudbox.
The main point IMHO is understanding what Zbrush and or Mudbox lack to fit better in whatever production, especially if there are common problems to face, then simply ask for enhancements in these environmente.

This being said , Z spheres II for me is a great advancement of Zbrush as a whole, and I think it wil bring further advancements in ZB 4

BUZZFX
08-17-2009, 11:02 PM
With this new ZSpheres II do you think you will be able to import a mesh from other applications and then pose it using ZSpheres? Let's say I create a low poly figure in another application, can I import it into ZBrush and then pose it using ZSpheres II?

I am also wondering if I can pose some of my completed models using ZSpheres II or does the mesh have to be created using ZSpheres first?

Magnus81
08-17-2009, 11:30 PM
i dont have a problem with people and their personal opinions.
"i happen to have a few of my own"

but some here seem uncontent with their "personal" opinions, and insist on speaking for whole companies,large segments of a software user base, or even seemingly huge sections of the planet all based on their own "personal" opinions and experiences.
and grouping a whole software user base into "low end enthusiast/amature illustrator group" just because of the software that they use, that is pretty rude and uncalled for IMHO.

it just sounds like an all expenses paid ego trip on the SS "my software is better than yours" cruise ship, with a heaping helping of self-serving elitism thrown in for good measure.

and BTW,
i do have a very firm understanding of being both a professional and being very respectful to others and their opinions.

but that is very much a two way street.
fling poo at me and mine, and i will for sure pick up a brown bisquit or 2 and sling it right back atcha with a very professional gleam in my eye! :scream:!


and as for Zbrushes "crazed"-"useless"-"insane" and "americanized" UI, i hope the damn thing plays "stars and stripes" and has little zsphere american eagles flapping around on its spash screen with a red white and blue UI and even smaller buttons and sliders. ;)
Agree with everything your saying. In fact it's everything I was going to say verbatim. Weird!

aadams
08-17-2009, 11:40 PM
I for one hope that zbrush will expanded into inorganic modelling techniques as well...that being said kudos to the pixologic team...and I hope that the upgrade is as good as the demonstration.

Antropus
08-17-2009, 11:56 PM
Most of the ILM artists I know about have preferred Mudbox...

If you take a thorough look at the Pixologic site, you'll find two things:
- they've only talked about using Zbrush on Pirates 2, several years ago
- and they've hacked it apart completely to fit it into their pipeline (seriously, I challange you to understand what exactly they've done because I've failed to completely grasp it)

I am not allowed to talk about unreleased projects.
But it sure gave us a lot of problems on a past one and we had to use a lot of DOF to mask out the lack of detail on a character.
You're talking about a project done years ago, when ZBrush was a totally different kind of beast. You would be VERY surprised if you knew what's going on nowadays. About "hacking" ZBush completely to make it work, this is all news to me...

Phrenzy84
08-18-2009, 12:10 AM
uh oh....

Come on Tamas, respond hehe :)

Everyone has different pipelines, right? So what might be good for one house, might not be good for another.

Even if Zbrush was capable of working with 400 trillion polys and able to write them out to multiple displacement, bump and normal tiles all as 32 bit float with a high degree of accuracy... or whatever you could dream of, doesn't mean it will always fit what you pipeline has to offer. And thats the point when you ask yourself or your pipeline TD.. Do we need to update/change/adapt?

There are always bottlenecks (however minor), its hard to avoid.

John-S
08-18-2009, 01:26 AM
You're talking about a project done years ago, when ZBrush was a totally different kind of beast. You would be VERY surprised if you knew what's going on nowadays. About "hacking" ZBush completely to make it work, this is all news to me...
I hope when movies are released we get to hear a little about what you speak of :cool:

Course, I suppose you guys are probley the testing grounds of the ZBrush software LONG before we get to see any of this stuff. Maybe I'm wrong on that... don't know.

Laa-Yosh
08-18-2009, 01:53 AM
You're talking about a project done years ago, when ZBrush was a totally different kind of beast. You would be VERY surprised if you knew what's going on nowadays.

I'm ready to get surprised... and also,

About "hacking" ZBush completely to make it work, this is all news to me...

...I'd really like a more thorough explanation of the approach used on Davy Jones if its possible.

Antropus
08-18-2009, 02:52 AM
Laa-Yosh,

You're well aware about NDAs and what we can and what we cannot talk about on these forums.
Just know this: you're wrong, I'm right on this one. Plain and simple.

-Kris

BigPixolin
08-18-2009, 02:53 AM
and grouping a whole software user base into "low end enthusiast/amature illustrator group" just because of the software that they use, that is pretty rude and uncalled for IMHO.

Whats rude and uncalled for is taking someones words and twisting them to fit your own agenda. NOBODY that I seen grouped the whole user base as enthusists. Stating the FACT that Zbrush does and always has had a large enthusist user group does not negate the profesional users of Zbrush. Ignoring that is just blind fanboyism.

SheepFactory
08-18-2009, 03:10 AM
I have a feeling a lot of the people who bitch about zbrush havent used go z yet (I know I didn't like it prior to that)

It takes all the frustration out of zbrush. I can't imagine doing anything without it now.

R10k
08-18-2009, 03:26 AM
Possibly SheepFactory, but time will tell when it's available to more than a limited group.

Kanga
08-18-2009, 06:08 AM
ZB liberated most of us from traditional modelling. For me it has been a revelation and the most innovative piece of software to date. The app plugs into anything you are using and this is becoming more so.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist to work out the ui, if that were the case there wouldn't be so much impressive work around where ZB has played a major role. Check out the champions of the dominance war competition. If you think that work is crap then there is a good reason why you can't get zbrush to work :) .

Its just logical.

R10k
08-18-2009, 06:21 AM
Trying to remember which one of the 905 Ctrl-Alt-Shift combinations will mask your mesh with the right selection mode doesn't always scream logical :P

SheepFactory
08-18-2009, 06:38 AM
Trying to remember which one of the 905 Ctrl-Alt-Shift combinations will mask your mesh with the right selection mode doesn't always scream logical :P


A single button masks the mesh and ctrl+shift+a unmasks. It really doesnt get any simpler than that. I can understand criticism about the zbrush UI itself, things like sliders and entering numeric entry is a nightmare. But the actual workflow itself is as simple and out of your way and artist friendly as it gets. You hold down space and you have everything you need right there.

Also without exception zbrush has the best help system on any software. you hold a mouse cursor over any menu item and you get a short explanation and the shortcut key thats assigned to it, you hold down ctrl and you get a description of what that button does right there without having to hunt it down in the help files.

ThE_JacO
08-18-2009, 06:39 AM
...I'd really like a more thorough explanation of the approach used on Davy Jones if its possible.
I'd imagine things would have changed in ILM in four years, particularly in regards to processes that were at inception stage or 2nd run back then :)

R10k
08-18-2009, 07:03 AM
A single button masks the mesh and ctrl+shift+a unmasks. It really doesnt get any simpler than that.

Except doing nothing at all- that's much simpler.

The point is- there are more commands mapped to those keys, and it's easy to get them confused. Try hiding polys with a lasso. I used to know the command, but I think (not having used Zb in a little while) I have it confused with masking a section. Or is it unmasking a section? Also, don't forget that many things change based on the tool you're using at the time, and based on the context of what you're drawing on. Yes, we can all use the popup menus, but some people actually like to use shortcuts.

you hold a mouse cursor over any menu item and you get a short explanation and the shortcut key thats assigned to it, you hold down ctrl and you get a description of what that button does right there without having to hunt it down in the help files.

That used to be true, but since version 2.5 many commands have lacked explanations. Now there's the built in help, that for some reason (even though I've installed it four times) keeps unlinking itself from Z3. It's installed, but the help button doesn't load it up. I won't blame that one on Zbrush as it could be an issue on my end I'm missing, but the point is that Pix's focus hasn't been on the rollover help system for some time now.

SheepFactory
08-18-2009, 07:07 AM
Except doing nothing at all- that's much simpler.

The point is- there are more commands mapped to those keys, and it's easy to get them confused. Try hiding polys with a lasso. I used to know the command, but I think (not having used Zb in a little while) I have it confused with masking a section. Or is it unmasking a section? Also, don't forget that many things change based on the tool you're using at the time, and based on the context of what you're drawing on. Yes, we can all use the popup menus, but some people actually like to use shortcuts.







How would you suggest masking be made simpler? Not sure I understand what you mean by "except doing nothing which is simpler"

R10k
08-18-2009, 07:38 AM
How would you suggest masking be made simpler?

It's not an issue with masking specifically. It's about lumping a groups of controls onto the three modifier keys, and adding tool context, canvas context and 'hold and release' modifiers to a lot of them. I think plain old thought about how to make them more memorable would help. For the fun if it, here are the controls I'm talking about.

Move - Alt+Click & Drag Background
Constrain to 90-degree rotation - Click+Drag, press Shift
Scale – Alt+Click, Release Alt, Drag Background
Rotate around Z-axis - Shift, Click, release Shift, Drag
Paint mask on object (alphas/strokes can be used) - Ctrl (hold down)
Delete or paint reverse mask – Ctrl+Alt (hold down)
Reverse mask – Ctrl+Click Background
Clear Mask – Ctrl+Click+ Drag Background
Constant-intensity mask - Ctrl+Click, Release Ctrl, Drag (starting off mesh)
Alpha-intensity mask - Ctrl+Click & Drag (starting off mesh, Lasso off)
Blur mask - Ctrl+Click on mesh
Create custom Stencil - Shift+Ctrl+Click, Release Ctrl, Drag (when Lasso selection switched on)
Show mesh portion – Shift+Ctrl+Click & Drag
Hide mesh portion - Shift+Ctrl+Click, Release Shift, Drag
Show entire mesh - Shift+Ctrl+Click Background
Show only selected Polygroup (on fully visible mesh) - Shift+Ctrl+Click
Hide selected Polygroup (on fully visible mesh) - Shift+Ctrl+Click
Reverse visibility - Shift+Ctrl+Click & Drag Background

Don't you think some of those could be made easier? :) Plus, every version they add a few more! Obviously it's cool they're right at your fingertips, but no one could be blamed for getting things muddled, or forgetting them.

Not sure I understand what you mean by "except doing nothing which is simpler"

Don't worry, it's not important :)

SheepFactory
08-18-2009, 07:43 AM
I know that stuff looks complex when you write it like that but do a model and by the end of it its all second nature. I think its great you can do all vital commands without having to lift your hand from the bottom left of the keyboard.

Agree there is always room for improvement though.

R10k
08-18-2009, 07:49 AM
I agree- when I've been using Zbrush a lot, I do enjoy the freedom of the control system. But, when I haven't, I somewhat dread having to go back and recall everything again. If the guys worked to refine it somewhat, I'd quite possibly have no reason to complain :)

Laa-Yosh
08-18-2009, 08:19 AM
Just know this: you're wrong, I'm right on this one. Plain and simple.


I stand corrected then.

Laa-Yosh
08-18-2009, 08:22 AM
I have a feeling a lot of the people who bitch about zbrush havent used go z yet (I know I didn't like it prior to that)

It takes all the frustration out of zbrush. I can't imagine doing anything without it now.

I've been pushing very hard for us to start using zbrush back in 2004, as I've been following 2.0's development pretty closely, with Pixolator posting to the spiraloid forums and all.

The reason I'm frustrated with it is that we've been using it all the time since then, and for a long time it was my job to deal with it's problems, some of which are still there. And these are small issues that should have been easy to get fixed long ago.

Airflow
08-18-2009, 09:25 AM
So Ilm use vanilla zbrush, no changes whatso ever?
Any scripts you use that you could suggest I hunt down.

My argument is Stability first, innovation second. Its all nice to see escorche modelling on the fly, but whats they point if its full of bugs. Im not saying it is, just pointing out that alot of people hope they focus on squashing the bugs.
Were texturing some dinos for a tv programme, z's behavior is pretty flakey. The guy working on it had to finish the job in Bodypaint.
When you got a couple of days on a shot before the next one, the last thing you need is bugs. The whole office agreed on using mudbox from now on because you can just get in, texture and get out with no hastles. granted there are issues with mudbox too, but I gennerally find, either you totally fine with zbrush or totally screwed, with mud most of the bugs are being ironed out.
I am sticking with zbrush at work to see the changes in the new version, I think it worth it but voicing concerns is totally valid, and in my opinion, I dont think anyone can be labeled as a troublemaker in any thing Ive seen sofar on this thread.

MotleyPete
08-18-2009, 09:30 AM
With this new ZSpheres II do you think you will be able to import a mesh from other applications and then pose it using ZSpheres? Let's say I create a low poly figure in another application, can I import it into ZBrush and then pose it using ZSpheres II?

I am also wondering if I can pose some of my completed models using ZSpheres II or does the mesh have to be created using ZSpheres first?

You can already do this kind of posing with the current incarnation of ZSpheres

Info (http://www.pixologic.com/docs/index.php/ZSphere_Rigging)
Example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ4JK-3b2ds)

Although I imagine with ZSpheres II it will be improved

hotknife
08-18-2009, 10:10 AM
It's perfectly relevant. The foundation Zbrush is built on affects how the features on top of it function. Point in case- Paintstop, which feels slow and clumsy to use, without things like canvas rotation, because it's not much more than a Zscript. (note: the point isn't that Paintstop sucks- just mentioning as an example)
No I don't think it is that relevant due to the fact that Zbrush was a totally different different beast back then. I didn't say that just quoting the senior ILM guy on this thread.
If software development was a linear line in time which once written could never be changed due to the laws of physics then maybe. But comparing Zb 1 with 3.1 is quite a different beast.

R10k
08-18-2009, 10:34 AM
If software development was a linear line in time which once written could never be changed due to the laws of physics then maybe.

Until the base is remade, software development is similar to a 'linear line' (using your term there)... not because of the limits of physics, but because of the law of, "a freakin' ton of coding will need to be done."

hotknife
08-18-2009, 11:10 AM
or a 'freakin' amount of work is done. How do you feel the base therefore is limiting a sculpting package that can push 19 million poly's around the screen.

R10k
08-18-2009, 11:15 AM
As I already mentioned, (regarding zscripting) there's more to the base than poly pushing routines.

Zarathustra
08-18-2009, 04:13 PM
I can't help but feel that, as always, the vitriol is from people who are frustrated by having to use multiple apps, either for ideological reasons or financial reasons, so they angrily defend the app choice they've made and attack the one(s) they haven't chosen. Man I get it, believe me. I've blown a lot of cash over the years and I'm still bothered by having to maintain upgrading several apps because each one is the best at this or that to an extreme that warrants using them over the other tools I already have.

It's a shame though that there can't be a purely objective discussion of this new ZSpheres update (I'm not a ZB fan but it looks really interesting to me). Instead the discussion is infused with talk about the interface or what it lacks in comparison to MB (and visa versa). Now what does that have to do with discussing this new ZSpheres update? Nothing.

Now as far as this new tech, it intrigues me enough to eagerly await 3.5, despite using and preferring MB and never caring for ZSpheres before. It could potentially change how I approach modeling. That's pretty huge, no? Now if it weren't for that damn interface... :D

John-S
08-18-2009, 05:01 PM
ZSpheres 2 seem like the new red shader... When that was released every direction you looked was red. I have a feeling that soon, every-time I close my eyes at night... I will see digital super sculpey :cool:

BUZZFX
08-18-2009, 05:11 PM
You can already do this kind of posing with the current incarnation of ZSpheres
Info (http://www.pixologic.com/docs/index.php/ZSphere_Rigging)
Example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HJ4JK-3b2ds)
Although I imagine with ZSpheres II it will be improved

Thanks Pete, I thought you had to use "Transpose"! for posing of a mesh. :)



So Ilm use vanilla zbrush, no changes whatso ever?
Any scripts you use that you could suggest I hunt down.

My argument is Stability first, innovation second. Its all nice to see escorche modelling on the fly, but whats they point if its full of bugs. Im not saying it is, just pointing out that alot of people hope they focus on squashing the bugs.
Were texturing some dinos for a tv programme, z's behavior is pretty flakey. The guy working on it had to finish the job in Bodypaint.
When you got a couple of days on a shot before the next one, the last thing you need is bugs. The whole office agreed on using mudbox from now on because you can just get in, texture and get out with no hastles. granted there are issues with mudbox too, but I gennerally find, either you totally fine with zbrush or totally screwed, with mud most of the bugs are being ironed out.
I am sticking with zbrush at work to see the changes in the new version, I think it worth it but voicing concerns is totally valid, and in my opinion, I dont think anyone can be labeled as a troublemaker in any thing Ive seen sofar on this thread.

Robert, you and others have some valid points here about Pixologic fixing bugs, but I doubt Pixologic reads these threads. I think if a handful of people from well known studios were to email there concerns over bug fixing and stability this might be enough to make Pixologic take notice and make the changes as Studios are likely an important part of Pixologic's customer base.

Here's the email addresses if anyone is interested.
Support: https://support.pixologic.com/
General Information: info@pixologic.com (http://forums.cgsociety.org/info@pixologic.com)


:)

hotknife
08-18-2009, 07:10 PM
All this speculation and debate is probably pointless anyway as the release will more than likely be delayed anyway ! :cry: but here's hoping not.

Nemoid
08-19-2009, 08:11 AM
Just why should be delayed?
Lets wait at least till end of August and see...

BigPixolin
08-19-2009, 01:17 PM
Just why should be delayed?
Lets wait at least till end of August and see...

LOL good one!
I for one am holding my breath in antcipation.

Nemoid
08-19-2009, 02:29 PM
Pixologic has the habitude to deliver products at last time possible, so it will be something like August 31, at midnight time, I guess...:D

cyartist
08-19-2009, 11:24 PM
Zbrush 3.5 will be release on Sept 4th 2009. Count on it.

You will get a statement on Monday Aug 31st ( at the very last minute) saying in preparation of the release Zbrush 3.5 please fill out some form to send to them. Then over the next few days you will
get a notice to download. All of this is designed to wreck your nerves for nearly a week.
This is how they always do it.

I use to hate the way the release software but now I love to sit back watch the fanboys
freak out for a whole week.

Kudos to Pixologic for this ingenious release stratedgy.

BUZZFX
08-20-2009, 03:51 AM
Zbrush 3.5 will be release on Sept 4th 2009. Count on it. You will get a statement on Monday Aug 31st ( at the very last minute) saying in preparation of the release Zbrush 3.5 please fill out some form to send to them. Then over the next few days you will get a notice to download. All of this is designed to wreck your nerves for nearly a week. This is how they always do it. I use to hate the way the release software but now I love to sit back watch the fanboys freak out for a whole week.

Kudos to Pixologic for this ingenious release stratedgy.

Ingenious Release Strategy. More like frustrating if you ask me. I wouldn't exactly start praising Pixo for always being late. In the business world if you promise something and don't deliver on time you can kiss your credibility goodby not to mention your customers!

Lucky for Pixo it's users are more forgiving and ZBrush is a killer app so I guess that eases the pain a bit, after all it's either wait or use Mudbox or 3DCoat right! Personally I wish Pixologic would deliver on time from here on, but for whatever reason it is usually (always) late. BTW Aren't you being a little optimistic with that release date? lol. :)

ambient-whisper
08-20-2009, 05:33 AM
BTW Aren't you being a little optimistic with that release date? lol. :)

no. because as has been stated by pixo, 3.5 is very much what 3.2 is for osx ( which is a nice release over 3.1 ) plus a few other goodies.

considering that 3.2 has been released, releasing a few other goodies on top of that isn't as hard as working up completely new stuff, or reworking stuff that never worked fully as intended to work completely differently ( and hopefully different ). as soon as theres innovation involved, the timeline is never 100% certain. thats why you see autodesk buying so much technology instead of bringing new stuff to users. if they were to innovate all the time with every release (atleast if it was expected, then if it would take several years to finish a specific toolset, you wouldnt see it until its complete, ( or youd get a half assed version all together ) and in the meantime you'd get just bug fixes.

in a way i sort of wish that pixo had a similar method of working, where bug fixes would be handled more often and features for major versions. the best we could do is keep suggesting what could be fixed directly to them and not saying " its got a shitty ui" with no description as to why on random forums where nobody hears you except a few users.

Nemoid
08-20-2009, 01:13 PM
If they release ZB 3.5 at end of August, and reach to release 4.0 at the end of 2009, or also first quarter 2010 it will be actually great.

Argyll
08-24-2009, 04:24 AM
People will always whine about the interface. On everything,.. get used to it. People even have a decent whinge about zb updates being free. You all need a jolly good spanking!
Yep the Zbrush UI sucks big time and to me they've tried reinventing the wheel and ended up with a car that has one round wheel, one elliptical, one square and one triangular - not fun to drive. Just because it's there doesn't mean it's right, the best solution or something you 'have to get used to.'

CrazyMatt
08-24-2009, 07:59 AM
This just occured to me...

Everyone disbelieves pixologic just about as much as most americans disbelieve Obama.

In reality, behind the scenes it's all in shambles and is constantly being worked out. When elsewhere people of the outside bicker and complain nothing is being done about it all.

Guys, things take time. Patience for 3.5/4.0 and beyond and like that of healthcare, will come to it's finish. You just gotta focus on other things in your life, or give yourself different things to do until that time comes.

HcyeKRa
08-24-2009, 05:20 PM
That's funny you know, the Maya viewport navigation gets treated like a standard, but there is at least one App since several years that does a faster job by using less buttons than the STANDARD, but most if not all people still like the standard way because their brain is just to lazy to learn something new...


In that regard the standard is just the same as you called ZB with it's wheels.

btw i am not talking about ZB, and i think the people that are using that app know it that it's a faster way to navigate in the viewport.

btw your analogy sucks big balls somehow, because if it woul'd be true no one woul'd use it...fact.

Yep the Zbrush UI sucks big time and to me they've tried reinventing the wheel and ended up with a car that has one round wheel, one elliptical, one square and one triangular - not fun to drive. Just because it's there doesn't mean it's right, the best solution or something you 'have to get used to.'

Ptichat
08-24-2009, 05:51 PM
That's funny you know, the Maya viewport navigation gets treated like a standard, but there is at least one App since several years that does a faster job by using less buttons than the STANDARD, but most if not all people still like the standard way because their brain is just to lazy to learn something new...


In that regard the standard is just the same as you called ZB with it's wheels.

btw i am not talking about ZB, and i think the people that are using that app know it that it's a faster way to navigate in the viewport.

btw your analogy sucks big balls somehow, because if it woul'd be true no one woul'd use it...fact.
I"m not sure we can say that CGArtist are lazy when it comes to learn a new soft :curious:.
But one thing is sure, I don't want to focus on understanding how they think this workflow far from what we are used to !

HcyeKRa
08-24-2009, 06:14 PM
The thing is CGArtists are lazy by relearning the simplest things and navigation usually is the simplest thing but the most used one on a regular basis, so it is the biggest part for problems.
I mean if you use different Apps. and one of (do we say 4 apps) use a slightly different navigation paradigm, even it has a faster way for navigating you still get caught by pressing the wrong keys sometimes. ;)

Just to remind, im not talking about ZB here, but imo the best thing woul'd be if the standard woul'd be if every damn app woul'd have complete customizeable mouse button/kb key settings. (Damn, even given the fact that most apps do have the ability, it doesn't help much if the user is the problem itself in the end.)

But if you want take it to ZB, and it's a common thing that the navigation works very well with a tablet, why do so many users have problems with it, and i can't help but sculpting with mouse only isn't the best thing to get the most out of ZB. (But CGArtists are very open to learn new things, right?
Just not navigation. ;)
I"m not sure we can say that CGArtist are lazy when it comes to learn a new soft :curious:.
But one thing is sure, I don't want to focus on understanding how they think this workflow far from what we are used to !

WyattHarris
08-24-2009, 06:30 PM
Zbrush 3.5 will be release on Sept 4th 2009. Count on it.

You will get a statement on Monday Aug 31st ( at the very last minute) saying in preparation of the release Zbrush 3.5 please fill out some form to send to them. Then over the next few days you will
get a notice to download. All of this is designed to wreck your nerves for nearly a week.
This is how they always do it.

I use to hate the way the release software but now I love to sit back watch the fanboys
freak out for a whole week.

Kudos to Pixologic for this ingenious release stratedgy.
You know this wouldn't surprise me a bit but lately Pixologic has been very good on their releases. I'm hoping they keep it smooth.

Speaking of ZSpheres though, it took me a while to really get them but I can't imagine starting a project any other way now. I said this on the ZBC thread but I really liked the look of the hands. Instead of the usual trident rig for a hand they built an actual skeleton armature and sculpted the structure on top of that. Really looking forward to this release.

SergioSantos
08-25-2009, 01:56 AM
I asked for this on ZBcentral forum for many years... always got very rude replies from pixologic... I even posted this video to explain what I meant:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2FxrCW9fzk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2FxrCW9fzk)

I just hope for a bugger-less version than 3.0, thank god they released 3.1 shortly after that.
And I do think that if you say a date for release the least you can do is release in that date, otherwise don't say a date at all.