Misc: Do u wanne switch?

[Magnum Jones]

I´ve already tried demo versions of Maya, Lightwave and XSI, but...
I dunno, maybe I´m to attached to MAX interface and workflow.:p

[Aldaryn]

This is kinda fels like using pastels rather than chalk... I prefer chalk, but tried pastels a several times, and the colors were confusing. Okey, maybe more dimensions to work with, but it felt different, I'm too attached to chalk, and my pencil.... ;)

I've tried the Educational version of Maya recently, and no doubt, I was impressed by some features. And I felt right at home, when it crashed. But as mentioned above: It felt different. Not the general thinking, the workflow, the whole 3D thingee, but somehow, it felt unnatural to me. I've been using 3D MAX, since I know how to use a PC.
When I was 15, and got my firs PC, someone gave me a CD containing a *not so legal* copy of MAX 2.0, I've started it, and from that point, I was a slave to MAX *a LEGO with unlimited number of pieces, and piece types....* With no english knowiledge, and just a little about PC-s, it took me 2 years to figure out step by step how this application works, so maybe this is why I've got this attached.
I'm not planning to leave MAX, not if they come up with the most biggest load of crap in the newer versions. No, I've got faith in MAX, and no matter what discreet does, I'll be a MAXer, and continue to dream about better improvements.

You know : 'hope dies last'...

- A.

[thorn3d]

No, i'm not planning to switch. Max5 is still the same good application it was before v6 was announced, and the fact the upgrade offers me hardly any value doesn't change the fact that I'm happy with v5.

thorn

[tonygib]

Well I have thought about it, even had a look ay Maya, the problem is having to learn a new app all over again. Which means it will take even longer to produce something worth while. So for now, as long as max can do everything I want it to do, which thanks to some help from other ppl and scripts, etc it has done the job. I think I will stick with max.

With any luck, by the time it really matters, the next generation of 3ds max will be out and God I hope it will blow ppl away.

[Dave Black]

I've used LW a tad(we own one seat at work because a co-worker only models in it), maya's PLE for a few hours, and have downloaded but not installed XSI's educational edition.

I'm not adverse to learning new apps, but I don't think switching is really needed. They all have their uses, and I'd love to be more flexible, if for no other reason than to be able to translate and communicate ideas and techniqes between user bases. I still love max's interface.

-3DZ

:D

[Equinoxx]

max ownz all :buttrock:

down boy DOWN i say.

I have been using 3dsmax since 2.5 and it has come a long way since then. I live and breath max and i don't even have to think twice if i need a certain tool. it's like an extension of my fingers.

the thought of swithing because two updates in a row are not earthshattering is not something that would come natural to me.
I have a lots of friends in cg and they ALL complain about this or that.

And one thing that's REALLY hard to overcome when swithing is viewport navigation. I tried all other apps and believe me, not being able to use alt-mmb to rotate around your object is REAL killing.

And while I agree that r6 is maybe not what a lot of us hoped it would be, there are still some things in it that might make it worth your while [new and usuable Schematics view, Particle flow [almost worth and entire update in itself] MentalRay which dispite people shooing it becuase they allready have a 3rd party renderer is a nice addition for those who DO NOT yet own one.
and apparently max 6 is mostly a stabillity update which in itself should be a pointrelease for free, but with all the other stuff added can be considered a feature [ you know that a crash is not a bug but a feature ;)]

so switching, no way, not now after all these years i put into max.

I am quite sure that discreet got the message and that they should clean up their act REAL soon.

cheers.

[Six Black Roses]

Well, currently I'm a 3ds max... newcomer. I've had a very difficult time to choose which application to invest time in. Mostly it was a choice between 3ds max and Maya, but Lightwave slipped into the flow every now and then.

Having gotten used to Bryce, the program that introduced me to the concept of 3D on a computer, I was really disappointed with how ugly both 3ds max and Maya were. I couldn't stand the gray colors that just... sat there, without character. For the first while, it seemed ironic that a program designed to make pretty things was itself ugly.

I got past that. Though I have to say, 3ds max didn't seem as ugly as Maya. Maya had confusing menus and buttons and generic fonts all over the place. On top of that, Maya demanded that I enable an otherwise useless network card of my motherboard.

That's not why I chose 3ds max over Maya. I chose 3ds max because I was under the impression that the userbase was more expanded, and that 3ds max was more of an industry standard. The gamers used it, the artists used it, and a few movies implemented the 3ds max environment.

I still hesitated frequently over giving Maya another shot. But after several installations and following uninstallations, I've become less and less open-minded towards Maya. I just didn't like the way it looked. It clearly wasn't designed with the visual artist in mind.

These days I rarely consider other platforms. I've invested couple of months with 3ds max, and I think it'd be silly to give up on it, considering it doesn't really lack too much of what others have. Let us not forget the wide array of plugins and scripts, too!

[ninjacore]

i wouldnt want to switch. even though having experiance in 2 or more principle software apps on your cv can be a good thing sometimes. "jack of all trades, master of none" comes to mind tho.

i was first introduced to 3d max around 2 and a half years ago when my friend in my graphic design course quickly showed me how to build and animate a crude robot arm. i was very exited because i knew i was moving onto a universtiy course where 3dmax would be our main tool. i found it very easy to find my way around the UI and caught on to the software pretty fast

i've tried the PLE versions of maya,XSI, and houdini. i learned the basics of these apps with help from the 3dbuzz vids. i've also played around with lightwave too. but i was thinking that all these apps are so diffrent, and i dont have the time to relearn a package. so far its taken me around 2 years to get fully comfartable in max, even though there are still a million other things i want to learn with it.

i go on 3dtotal a lot, and look at the gallerys. all the images are done with max and 3rd party plugins and it really does show the strengh of that package and how far it can be taken.

so....yeah...Max rules!:cool:

[thomaspecht]

i have to admit, i'd like to switch and would like to go the maya route.

one reason: jobs! it seems to me that maya is increasing in popularity and quite a number of game-developers already have or are preparing for a switch-over. plus it's easier to get jobs in other fields (film, broadcast, etc) with a maya background.

another reason: i'm really pissed about max's development after release 4. seems they don't fix what's neccessary (to me at least) but instead fill the app with useless junk that doesn't work as advertised.

yet another reason: maya has some powerful tools that are not avialable for max, is generally strong in the animation department and last but not least you can run it on a variety of operating systems and are not limited to a windows box.

all in all i won't spend money on the R5, R6, whatever upgrade. especially when listening to the rumours that discreet is developing a new package from scratch and i therefore can expect to be left in the dust soon. or spend another round of cash to stay up-to-date in terms of compatibility.

[Marsel Khadiyev]

Neva ! :)

Actually, IMO, all 3d software is on the same level so the choice relies purely on personal preference.

[Oktavian]

Sometimes I think about switching over to another package but the habit makes me stay with Max.

[LFShade]

I never switch, I just add to my palette! And I think Max will always be a favorite among my colors:D


RH

[Equinoxx]

Originally posted by LFShade
I never switch, I just add to my palette! And I think Max will always be a favorite among my colors

Amen to that.

[CTRL+X]

I agree with LF,, I have never got into which app is better and look down on those that do, for there is no reason to,, have always viewed software as tools and nothing more, and more tools the better.

But we all have Fav tools... mine was 3d studio from DOS v 4 till max 4,,,, but now LW is my fav app to run to first,,, but I still have to use MAX at work when told too. But I know MAX better, but prefere the way LW flows


Its all good!!!!!! it is all good!!!!

[zarkos]

In my country Max is considered as amateur program and Maya and Softimage XSI are pro. Sad.

P.S. I have to agree with GIJoe.

[Xilica]

switch my ass:beer:

[opus13]

i consider switching to xsi every once in a while...

ive been using max since 1.2 and occasionally i get the feeling that the workflow might be a bit easier in another app.

so far i have tried the seat of maya at the office, and i am really unimpressed with the workflow, as it seems like it was designed for an engineer. its geared towards 'making' an item, vs. 'creating' one. that and the renderer can kiss my ass... i havent tried 5/mental yet though, so i guess they finally admitted that theres was crap.

im currently trying the edu download of xsi and slowly getting through the tut's when work schedule allows. so far i like the modelling, but havent messed with any animation in it (im a modeller at work, so i really dont even have a reason to try yet)

so far i like it.. but i think that i am more enamored with the rendering of mental ray... and if 6 pans out, then i guess there is no reason to switch from the rendering standpoint.

i might be able to get a seat at work if the purchasing agent is having a good day, and decides to like me at the moment (shes pretty heartless;) )

[lukx]

yyyy...I'm right in the middle of making up my decision to switch or not to switch... and after I saw this:
http://staff.ci.qut.edu.au/~barkerc/Final%20PAN%20website/panindex.htm

I really don't know what to think...is it possible to do something like this with max? Well meybe yes but is it possible to do it easier and faster than in Maya? Tell me the truth? :banghead: :banghead: what to do , what to do :cry:

[markdc]

Originally posted by zarkos
In my country Max is considered as amateur program and Maya and Softimage XSI are pro. Sad.

P.S. I have to agree with GIJoe.

Your country must not have a game industry which max dominates. It's a multi-billion dollar industry.

If you switch, you'll quickly find that all apps have problems and limitations. If you're creative you learn to work around those limitations.

[zarkos]

Originally posted by brian_dlm
Your country must not have a game industry which max dominates. It's a multi-billion dollar industry.

If you switch, you'll quickly find that all apps have problems and limitations. If you're creative you learn to work around those limitations.


My country don't have industry at all :thumbsdow

But i'm talking about 3D movies not gaming industry.

[ReneAlex]

"lo importante es el indio no el arco y la fecha"

para los gringoparlantes...

"what matters is the indian not the bow not the arrow"

I think a lot in books, art classes, animation experimentation, and creative development.

[dubge]

"what matters is the indian not the bow not the arrow"

Korben that is what it's all about. I think if your using max maya whatever your comfortable on you should stick with. switching would probly set you back trying to learn software all over again. That's why i'll probly nnever leave max. unless max 7 goes the same route as 6. can't be left behind. that's just my 2 cents.

[lukx]

pleas someone answer my question...

[spacefrog]

!!! Damn !!!

Server was busy and so i accidently double posted....
read the next post, i added some PS to the bottom..;

[spacefrog]

Lukx:

Of course it's possible in Max.
Maybe not the same way that is layed out on the website, but it's possible. It's possible with standard-max, with Max+CS, with Max+ACT, and a lot more options...

Don't now if it's possible faster or not, but that depends almost totally on the creativity/effective problemsolving-thinking of the artist.

The way Pan was done looks very Maya-specific, the artist knows the Tool that is for sure, so if one has similar Max knowledge it's possible too.

But one thing jumps right into the eye with Pan:

How well all basics are researched and tested, how good the modelling (edgeloops-layout etc..) is planned
- that pays off for sure and so the result is great !

The question is - How long did it take to make this animation ?
it's the guys thesis, so i thing it was at least half a year.

Stick with a project half a year, and if you're good the result will be really great too ;-)


P.S: one thing i recognized too: the guy has concentrated on the animation and all the things to make the animation possible.
Looking at the clip from a asthetic point of view i must say that the lighting/rendering/texturing is only of mid-90's standard (reminds me of povray to be exact ;-) )
so there is still some thing to improve and always will be.
That is true for every project, especially if one guy is on his own ;-)

[Bluplet]

I'll answer some things regarding wazza's Pan rig. I'll let him know about this thread and he can correct me if I'm wrong somewhere!

Originally posted by spacefrog
The way Pan was done looks very Maya-specific, the artist knows the Tool that is for sure, so if one has similar Max knowledge it's possible too.


The rig pan uses is possible to implement in max, it's mainly just a lot of carefully placed bones with some set driven keys (or wire paremeters in max-speak) that affect a whole lot of bones in a more or less dynamic manner.


The question is - How long did it take to make this animation ?
it's the guys thesis, so i thing it was at least half a year.


The rig was researched and developed last year for two semesters, 26 or so weeks. Animation was done this year and would have taken 4-6 months if I've got my timings right.

Wazza is a very talented person and will be putting out lots of awesome stuff in the future!

[Signal2Noise]

Originally posted by LFShade
I never switch, I just add to my palette! And I think Max will always be a favorite among my colors:D


RH


Totally agree!:thumbsup:

[LFShade]

About the Pan thing, and how it could be done in Max -

Everywhere you see "set driven key" you can substitute "wire parameters" or "reactor controller." Everywhere you see "cluster" you can substitute "linked xform."

So, yes, it's entirely possible to accomplish in Max. Trouble is, these tools have a tendency to slow Max down considerably, whereas they're handled quite fluidly in Maya. All those skin clusters on Pan would amount to a modifier stack two screens high, filled with mesh select and linked xform. Linked xform is a notorious interactivity-killer, so your speed would drop right through the floor. Furthermore, all those wired parameters to get the dynamic bone motion in the clavicle/scapula, spine, and ribcage would be guaranteed to bring Max to a crawl when you try to animate. And that's before you even add the skin/linked xform stuff on top! Believe me, there's only so far that creative problem-solving can get you before you run into genuine software bottlenecks that can't be avoided. In a case like this, you really are left to evaluate which software is a better fit for the task.

Given recent threads on this forum, I hate to use a car analogy. But you probably wouldn't recommend a Porsche to a friend who needs to tow a big boat, and you wouldn't likely recommend a Dodge Dakota to a friend who needs to win a race! They're both fine and capable vehicles, but you have to understand that each has its own strengths and weaknesses.


RH

[lukx]

so for complicated animations it's better to use maya? and which other software could manage this kind of animation exept maya? Lightwave?

[credmond]

not necessarily

certainly maya's built-in tools are much better performance-wise than max's built-in and maya feature per feature outclasses max

but, with max, you have character studio (look at the Yeah! animations for an example) and Absolute Character Tools which give you lots of options. Maya doesnt have a commercially available muscle system yet (but it will inevitably some day get one)

Maya basically provides you with the nuts and bolts to build some great animation tools if you got the TD skills or you have a TD at your studio. Large studios have proven you can build anything with Maya as a chassis.

But for the small studio or independent freelancer, you don't have the luxury of a TD hanging about so with Maya you see people using Motionbuilder or some auto-rigging solution and with Max you see people using Character Studio, HumanIK, or Motionbuilder.

If you were a small studio and you needed to turn around some character animations quickly Max would definitely help you where the start-up time would be tough in Maya unless you used Motionbuilder. An independent or small studio can do more and do it quicker I think with Max but Max's abilities dont currently extend well into the needs of the larger studio.

Basically, Max is very popular among small outfits for a reason, and Maya is very popular among large outfits for a reason . . .

[lukx]

:applause: I'm feelling much better now :)

[gandhics]

U can make anything you want with Max.
See Blizzard, Blur, Rezn8, Digital Dimension, Platige Image's works.

Many big studio uses Maya and XSI.
BUT, their Maya is not same as your Maya.
If you can afford luxury programmer, Maya and XSI can be good option. If not so, do the math.

[spacefrog]

credmond:

well spoken !!

i only can agree 1000%

An addtion:

You HAVE the options going more the maya way (clusters etc..)
there are an anormous amount of Plugs&Scripts available for Max, both free and commercially.
For Clusters, Morphing , Facialanim plugs go to www.di-o-matic.com

;-)

[ostov]

We just have to learn how to work around it. U guys should see rustboy making off.

[LFShade]

I stand by my assertion that Max gets too slow to be feasible for really advanced character rigging. This is currently true whether or not you're using 3rd party solutions like those from Di-O-Matic. Biped and HumanIK are fantastic solutions for humanoid/bipedal characters, but six-legged creatures with IK/FK switching (the good kind, not Max's built-in solution), interdependent constraints, and dynamic tentacle-like appendages, combined with skinning, morphing, and linked xform/cluster deformation is really unpleasantly slow in Max. That's not to say you can't animate a six-legged, tentacled creature in Max. You absolutely can! It's just that you end up having to simplify the rig quite a bit in comparison to what you could do in Maya, which makes the job of animating more time-consuming and less pleasant. If you've had the pleasure of using a really advanced Maya or XSI rig I'm sure you'll appreciate what I'm talking about here!

I know how it must sound, but I'm really not trashing Max here. I'm a die-hard Max fanatic, but I'm also a realist, and there are some limitations to every package. I've never built an advanced rig in Maya or XSI, but I've used a couple of them. And I've built a lot of Max rigs that were slow as a snail without half of the functionality of those in the other applications. Max just isn't as robust as its competitors in this department:hmm:

RH

[lukx]

maybe 6 will be :rolleyes:

[robioto]

I'm sure you'll see a big improvement in the next gen "Hyper Max" which Discreet spent the last several years re-writing. They know they lack in this area and I'm sure we'll see improvements with the core re-write which will put us at Max 7 some time next fall in 2005.

-r

[LFShade]

I don't know where you're getting this information, robioto, but it will be very cool if you're right:p

RH

[spacefrog]

LFShade:

Your posts are written too 'serious' as to be of the usual "Max-bashing" bullshit and hype that goes around from time to time ;-)

Do you have hands-on experience with such rigs in Maya ?
Is the performance really that good?

I tend to believe YES, cause the overall feeling of speed in
maya is better than in Max, but i never played with such a complex rig like pan's is.

But sure this area is Maya's original playground.
Hell !! Max did'nt even have a built-in skinning solution till V3
and only had that stupid IK and bones till V4.

So it had not that long time to mature these tools.
On the other way Maya's core is designed over that
node-based thingy, so it has speed with all that driven-keys
and expressions that Max never can reach (- i guess )

;-)

[wazza m]

Hey fellas, wazza here (PAN animator)

Next time let us know that your havin this sort of discussion cause I'm always keen for a chat.

Pan may look complicated (setup wise) but all that you see was created interactively with MAYA's menu systems. There's no complex programming involved - just the use of drop down menu options.

In my opinion, proper character setup is fundamental to good animation. For the "Fox and the Hound" Disney, studied the anatomy of a fox and a hound to try to understand why they moved differently - they actually skinned a dead fawn and studied it for "Bambi". It's the slight differences in anatomy which make men and women walk differently. If you want to animate something realisticly - reality must be inherant in the setup.

As long as MAX has the tools to create a skeleton which can mimic skeletal movements that are coherrant with anatomical reference (and animate in realtime) - use it. Otherwise, MAYA's your program.

Peace,

Wazza

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