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Digital-Tutors
08-05-2009, 07:57 PM
Hi everyone,

The Digital-Tutors Team is proud to announce our New Online Learning Library and Full-Featured Educational Platform!

We combined our award-winning training with an easy-to-navigate system so that artists everywhere have access to our entire video library of over 7,000 in-depth training lessons and 50 all-new courses for Maya, Houdini, 3ds Max, Mudbox, Softimage, and ZBrush as well as the addition of training for Fusion, MotionBuilder, Toxik, Pixel Bender, and Stitcher.

Our new library comes complete with an exclusive educational platform that is available 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and offers valuable features and exclusive benefits to providing students, professionals, educators, and hobbyists with a unique, customized learning experience.

New Features and Benefits

- 20 new courses added each month
- Unlimited personalized Playlists
- Create reminders with Tags and Notes
- Create, save, and loop any section of a lesson with our exclusive CLIPS Technology
- Find what you need in seconds with our Search Smarter Tool
- Anytime, anywhere access

Sign-up for a FREE Trial Pass: http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/register.php (http://www.digitaltutors.com/)

Tour the Library and Platform: http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/index.php

View Membership Plans: http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/pricing.php

If you have any questions or comments or would simply like more information about becoming a Digital-Tutors member, please feel free to contact us at customerservice@digitaltutors.com (http://forums.cgsociety.org/customerservice@digitaltutors.com).

Thank you for your continued support!

The Digital-Tutors Team

http://www.digitaltutors.com/images/09/page_heros/training.jpg

Geta-Ve
08-05-2009, 08:45 PM
$400 a year?! Holy shit.

Was my initial reaction.

That's a lot.

Is my second, and continuing, reaction.

Too bad too, I WAS actually going to contemplate signing up as I quite liked the way you guys were going with this, but not for anywhere near $400 a year.
:shrug:

teahtime
08-05-2009, 09:08 PM
Too bad too, I WAS actually going to contemplate signing up as I quite liked the way you guys were going with this, but not for anywhere near $400 a year.
:shrug:

I am certified in a few apps. I will charge you 500 a day to know what I know.

iC4
08-05-2009, 09:13 PM
$400 a year?! Holy shit.

Too bad too, I WAS actually going to contemplate signing up as I quite liked the way you guys were going with this, but not for anywhere near $400 a year.
:shrug:

I think it's quite reasonable.

Andy1010
08-05-2009, 09:27 PM
I think its actually a fair price. I'm glad they are moving in this direction. Can't wait to get my hand on some training.

SePu
08-05-2009, 09:46 PM
I hope you guys continue the DVD's as well ..... it would be a shame if you guys stop that ...
for people that can't have internet connection 24/7 like for example when you travel, etc ....

Seraca
08-05-2009, 09:56 PM
New Website is beautiful!!
I just signed up for the free trial

SoulVector
08-05-2009, 10:42 PM
I hope you guys continue the DVD's as well ..... it would be a shame if you guys stop that ...
for people that can't have internet connection 24/7 like for example when you travel, etc ....

Yeah, I hope so too. CMI did a bad choice removing the DVDs so I stopped buying their content. I only bought three DVDs from them so I were never a big customer. But I really think CMI did a good job delivering overseas so it was really too bad that DVDs disappeared and if DT chooses the same way as well I guess Ill be looking exclusively to Gnomon then.

musashidan
08-05-2009, 10:49 PM
My guess is that DT were really pissed off with all their titles being ripped and plastered all over the net as freebies.This is a smart move on their behalf.

helluvapixel
08-05-2009, 10:50 PM
Compared to Lynda.com which is an ala carte type thing has a yearly for $375 that includes project files so it's fairly on par for something similar. The $45/month is what I find hard to swallow. To continue to use Lynda.com it is $25/month, but they don't offer project files for that price.

TomThumb
08-05-2009, 10:59 PM
My guess is that DT were really pissed off with all their titles being ripped and plastered all over the net as freebies.This is a smart move on their behalf.

Something tells me that this will not stop the piracy.

danielmd
08-06-2009, 01:53 AM
In terms of pricing i don't think it's too much. The 30 days 45$ is less than they charged for most DVDs.

I am using the free trial right now, and while the platform does need a few tweaks here and there - navigation isn't always clear, and the playlists for large librries like softimage can be confusing and need more categorization, single videos and not full courses organization. Also the full screen does not actually increase the screen size very annoying. I would like some scale tools on the video window, this is the reason why i used an external video player to watch the DVDs.

Overall it's a very nice platform, much better than lynda.com that is basically just a list of links to mov files.

I do agree that some way of offline viewing is always a plus, however the online platform has many additional features that are attractive. The clips and notes, custom playlists,etc... Like many I would also like DT to continue selling DVDs maybe in a less fancy way, like netflix movies that don't come in a box.

In terms of piracy, unless there is a watermark, this is going to make it even worse! it's now cheaper to access the content. Pirates come in hordes, 10 people chipping in $40 and there ya go.

pher
08-06-2009, 02:51 AM
The new site is awful. I was trying to find the next DVD in the series I was working on and it's not listed. The previous site made it really easy to find which titles you have. Your new list is really bloated with too many individual 'lessons'.

Ya'll should have put a lot more work into the site before it went live.

I did like some of your instructors (Kyle Green), but I'll probably be sticking with Gnomon in the future.


--chris

Szos
08-06-2009, 07:21 AM
We had a thread about this topic already and I am going to reiterate that monthly/subscription pricing is ONLY beneficial for companies moving to that horrible business model which chops a user's bill down to smaller monthly bites, but ends up costing them much more in the long run. I would much rather purchase a DVD set and finish my transaction, than having to pay month after month to continue to get access to that info.

Also today for me was a perfect example of why having EVERYTHING streaming is a bad thing - I lost internet access for most of the day. If I needed to finish up a lesson with the old plan (using DVDs) I would have no problems with that... with the new system, I would be screwed.

Geta-Ve
08-06-2009, 02:40 PM
I am certified in a few apps. I will charge you 500 a day to know what I know.

I already know how to be an ass, but thanks anyways!

As per my opinion, wasn't sure what the general consensus would be on this, but I guess most seem to think a $400 yearly fee is fine. Well, I don't have to pay it, that is all I know. :P

Regardless of price though I do hope they are successful, as, truth be told, it does seem like they worked hard on this.

cresshead
08-06-2009, 02:47 PM
do you still get the scene files or only the streaming video's?

Seraca
08-06-2009, 04:00 PM
do you still get the scene files or only the streaming video's?

I am on free trial and I just downloaded nearly
200 megs of RealFlow scene files so I would your answer
is yes.







Cheers

Zarathustra
08-06-2009, 05:48 PM
I don't care for this plan, mostly for the reasons already mentioned:
can't watch what you paid for if for whatever reason, you don't have internet access
you never have PERMANENT access to something as you would if you simply bought a dvd/cd package

Now the one excuse I hear is piracy. This will stop piracy, but I don't think so. Right off the bat, I would think that now memberships will be pirated rather than the training (which I would imagine would be easier) and of course couldn't someone just use an app like SnapzPro and capture the streaming? So I don't get the advantage of this business model for DT other than to try and secure a steady flow of predictable revenue (which is arguably a desire of every business I guess).

The only advantage I see for a customer is if they were in a situation where they had to learn A LOT and had a relatively short, dedicated time to devote to absorbing it. This totally sucks for the person who might occasionally want to expand a bit on what they already know or who wants or needs to learn a new, specific thing (which I'd be willing to bet has accounted for a great deal of their sales over the years).

It'll be interesting to see if this will work for them or not, and perhaps interesting to see how the pirates will adapt. :D

Robert Magee
08-06-2009, 06:20 PM
http://www.sidefx.com/images/stories/main_features/digital_tutors_online_main.jpg

It is wonderful to see a lot of new Houdini content as part of the new Digital-Tutors Online Library.

The new Houdini lessons include:



New in Houdini 10
Getting Started with Digital Assets in Houdini
Getting Started with Fur Tools in Houdini
Getting Started with Stereoscopy in Houdini
Introduction to Rigging in Houdini
Character Skeleton Building in Houdini
Character Capturing with Capture Regions
Character Capturing using Proximity in Houdini
Character Control Rig Setup in Houdini
Even more material will be released in the coming weeks.


Python in Houdini
Getting Started with Auto Rigs in Houdini
Houdini Ocean Toolkit
Creating Game Art in Houdini (and export to Torque 3D)
Congrats to Digital-Tutors for creating all this new content for the community. It is also great to see that people who go to DT to learn about one product can also learn about other products. Maybe a Houdini lesson can inspire a Softimage user or a modeling technique in Maya can be made into a procedural network in Houdini.

Aspiring 3D Artists will be better off with a well-rounded education that is not tied too much to one application. One of the reasons we created the Apprentice program was to help students expand their skillset and DT is really helping to give these students access to lots of great material.

Learn More (http://www.sidefx.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1566&Itemid=66)

cresshead
08-06-2009, 06:50 PM
is the 1 month @ $45 based on >>

1.the current month...'august'
2.a rolling day count say 8 august to 7th september
3.30 days
4.31days?

if it's day>> based on who's start day timezone?...digital tutors day or my localtime zone day? [gmt]


also when browseing the videos how will i know what are NOT available for 1 month option before i sign up? :shrug:

on their forums it says AFTER you sign up you'll see what's available..Fn stupid!
so i sign up to find out the course i want is NOT there! :hmm:

also is that locked for the whole month or will it auto-unlock if say that was posted 15 days before my month started so on day 16 of my month it's now 30 days old..do i have it unlocked for the last 14 days of my month's rental? :curious:

JCAddy
08-06-2009, 09:56 PM
I think that this is a great idea, and I will definitely be taking part.

cresshead
08-06-2009, 10:43 PM
a think there alot of questions still to be cleared up, it's early days so i do hope DT will answer my question i wrote on their forum regarding the month rental and how we can 'SEE' what's available for that price BEFORE we pay NOT after asl when does the month start and exactly how long is the month 28days, 29days, 30days or 31 days?

Ben-Davis
08-06-2009, 11:12 PM
I believe this only really benefits newcomers to 3D and not those who are reasonably experienced. The price they've set is reasonable if you use it regularly, and the only ones who will use it regularly are newcomers. So for the more experienced artists who perhaps want only one or two titles, this new service is useless. If however they included the old service on top of this new online service then we get the best of both worlds. If DT want this to be successful, in my opinion, they should be back the physical DVDs.

Mahlon
08-06-2009, 11:47 PM
I don't know exactly yet how DT onine is going to turn out, but I must say that I, too, am not a fan of subscription based systems. I would much rather have the physical product to use whenever and wherever I need to.

I certainly hope this kind of business model for smaller ticket items (i.e. not software licenses) doesn't hold because I think it's a little limiting for the consumer.

As a modern consumer, sometimes I'm feeling 'nickled and dimed' to death. I'd rather just pay once and be done with it. Even if it's a bit more.

Mahlon

sacslacker
08-07-2009, 12:11 AM
Well $45 a month is way WAY too overpriced. I've purchased from digital tutors several times. I won't be buying anything else from them. That is just about a DVD a month. DT hasn't once offered a DVD that I would like to purchase each month. Maybe once every 3 months do they come out with something I'd like to buy. I have no interest in paying for a release that only gives me a certain time period to watch.

Good luck with the crappy subscription service. Nice site design though. Bad business model. Very bad.

Shenan
08-07-2009, 01:19 AM
Is there any term or condition that would prevent someone from signing up for just one month while they need to do just one or two courses (like some folks are mentioning in this thread) and then canceling? If not, then there's the answer to that. If you only need to do one "DVD" once in a while, sign up while you need it and cancel it when you don't need it.

bisenberger
08-07-2009, 04:16 AM
I do the monthly subscription with lynda.com intermittently. I joined for a few months to begin with then canceled. Every few months I join again to review something I seen previously or to check out new material. I use the same user name and password each time I sign back up. No problem doing this and they maintain a history of the training I've wathced even though it's not contiguous. It's very useful and worth while. I can see doing the same sort of thing with DT if it's set up that way.

Szos
08-07-2009, 06:16 AM
Is there any term or condition that would prevent someone from signing up for just one month while they need to do just one or two courses (like some folks are mentioning in this thread) and then canceling? If not, then there's the answer to that. If you only need to do one "DVD" once in a while, sign up while you need it and cancel it when you don't need it.

So say you do a lesson... learn some things, but like most people, you don't exactly remember everything from that lesson. If you only subscribe for that one month, there would then be no way for you to reload that lesson and refresh your memory. It's not like dusting off that DVD you bought 6 months ago and skimming though it again, you'd have to pay up again for a whole other month.

I do think their Memo idea and the Bookmark/Highlighting tool that they came up with is pretty cool, but subscription-based purchases are a no-no in my opinion.

cresshead
08-07-2009, 03:40 PM
So say you do a lesson... learn some things, but like most people, you don't exactly remember everything from that lesson. If you only subscribe for that one month, there would then be no way for you to reload that lesson and refresh your memory. It's not like dusting off that DVD you bought 6 months ago and skimming though it again, you'd have to pay up again for a whole other month.

I do think their Memo idea and the Bookmark/Highlighting tool that they came up with is pretty cool, but subscription-based purchases are a no-no in my opinion.

you'd have to create your own notes using notepad or whatever text editor or you could record yourself using a screen recorder like camtasia crating your own version with yourself making the project and saving THAT to a file for later use....or make an mp3 notebook with audio files on how you did it.

this is pretty much what you do if your in college and learning a subject..not as 'passive' as justslumming back and rewatching someone else work but it might actually 'stick in your head' if you do this also..

mr Bob
08-07-2009, 07:15 PM
xxxxx deleted xxxxx

TomThumb
08-07-2009, 08:14 PM
you'd have to create your own notes using notepad or whatever text editor or you could record yourself using a screen recorder like camtasia crating your own version with yourself making the project and saving THAT to a file for later use....or make an mp3 notebook with audio files on how you did it.

this is pretty much what you do if your in college and learning a subject..not as 'passive' as justslumming back and rewatching someone else work but it might actually 'stick in your head' if you do this also..

Which is probably against their EULA and would be a breach of contract. Although... this is probably exactly what pirates will be doing and NOW with MUCH greater ease.

Seraca
08-07-2009, 09:34 PM
The easiest way would be just to record it using screen flow or some other such screen recording device , then you can watch the content over and over again without the painful experience of using up your bandwidth.

Advocating theft /illegal Copying of copyright protected material
can cause you to be banned for life from the CGS forums
so think about what you post please.:eek:

Karnageddon
08-07-2009, 09:56 PM
Which is probably against their EULA and would be a breach of contract. Although... this is probably exactly what pirates will be doing and NOW with MUCH greater ease.

I agree that this is exactly what will end up happening. I was also looking forward to their new site but will not even consider subscribing until I can own a copy of any of the tutorials. Site's like these are great resources when you're dealing with software so complex and you cant remember everything without occasionally looking back. Id rather buy the training material and own it and always have it readily available, rather than subscribe every time I need to go back and re-learn something I have already paid for.

If the reason is truly to prevent piracy, then it's really unfortunate that it's becoming a standard to screw over the paying customers in an attempt to reduce piracy.

The4thAggie
08-07-2009, 10:03 PM
I signed up for DT free trial, and now they send 3-4 emails a day saying that I should subscribe now that I've tried. Enough of the spam.

rock
08-07-2009, 10:48 PM
I signed up for DT free trial, and now they send 3-4 emails a day saying that I should subscribe now that I've tried. Enough of the spam.

LOL. That's why it's important to use a fake email for these sort of things and use 12345678 as your phone number. :)

mr Bob
08-08-2009, 04:57 AM
deleted ....ok

heres the Eula
http://www.digitaltutors.com/09/terms.php

Proprietary Rights. All Training Materials, content, organization, graphics, design, compilation, magnetic translation, digital conversion and other matters related to or included on the Site are protected under applicable copyright, trademark, patent or other proprietary (including but not limited to intellectual property) rights. The copying, modifying, distributing, transmitting, displaying, selling, licensing, using, publishing or creating derivative works by you of any such matters or any part of the Site, except as expressly allowed by the Agreement, is strictly prohibited. You do not acquire ownership rights to any Content or other materials viewed through the Site. The posting of information or materials on the Site does not constitute a waiver of any right in such information and materials.

So this looks like its saying you cannot even alter / copy / modify the scene files/

Maybe in between gigs I should start my own training school and copy right my own bag of tricks

Bullit
08-08-2009, 07:14 AM
It is renting business instead of selling.

cresshead
08-08-2009, 07:54 AM
Which is probably against their EULA and would be a breach of contract. Although... this is probably exactly what pirates will be doing and NOW with MUCH greater ease.

recording MYSELF modeling a character after i've watched the training is fine...
writing notes is fine also

recording the STREAM from digital Tutors is criminal

cresshead
08-08-2009, 07:59 AM
It is renting business instead of selling.

yeah i don't rent many films at all thesedays, i prefer to buy my films on dvd

the idea of renting training feels abit odd, i may grow to like it but currently i'm
not convinced and am looking at other vendors to see if they pick up DT's dropped ball
[imo] or do the same thing and go rental.

i may go back to buying books it that's the case.

morimitsu
08-08-2009, 06:32 PM
It looks cheap if there's US$ 7000 worth of training, for just US$ 45 per month. A beer per day would buy this subscription.

PS. I don't work for them :).

Szos
08-09-2009, 02:19 AM
You do not acquire ownership rights to any Content or other materials viewed through the Site.

It is renting business instead of selling.

BINGO.... and I am sorry, but if I am renting something, I sure as hell better be renting it for less money than I could buy the same item.

cresshead
08-09-2009, 05:01 AM
BINGO.... and I am sorry, but if I am renting something, I sure as hell better be renting it for less money than I could buy the same item.

i think you have to think of it as a training tv channel you want to subscribe to or pay per view.

it's not a 'product' you buy but a 'service' you rent.
Also you can't buy the same item, they stopped ALL dvd and e downloads.

think of it as either renting a film from block buster or buying a dvd from amazon..they are DIFFERENT...digital tutors only rent from now on, gnomon, kurv and others still sell dvd's.

it's a different business model.

ThE_JacO
08-09-2009, 05:47 AM
It looks cheap if there's US$ 7000 worth of training, for just US$ 45 per month. A beer per day would buy this subscription.

PS. I don't work for them :).
That's like saying that a supermarket offering me a flat fee of 200$ per week to give me 5 grands worth of food that I have to consume within the week would be convenient :)

I spend 80-150$ at the supermarket every couple weeks buying what I need and want, I don't need 5 grands of random food with a timebomb for a flat fee larger than what I'd spend anyway.

There might be 7k worth of content on their site according to how they price their archives for sale, but the truth is that to the consumer that is simply not worth 7k. Well over half of that stuff has either obsolesced to uselessness, or was plain terrible to begin with (I've seen DT tutorials that are so fundamentally wrong that they'd probably do more damage than good).
The 2 or 3 grands left are estimated on sale prices, if you rent you should be paying about 1/3 for recent content, and 1/9 to 1/20 for the older one, which deprices it to maybe 500 bucks.
Out of that, chances are you are interested in maybe 10 or 20% of it if you're a newbie or moving to a new software that they cover extensively.
In that case the price sounds relatively fair to me, but because you can't download, only stream, chances are you won't be able to go through that much.

At the end of the day, for training, and with an archive that is largely worthless or obsolete, this simply doesn't seem very convenient for anybody except DT to me.
I hope the market will respond to that and push them into having to offer e-download sales , or at least a DL quota every month if they want to stick to the subscription model. If it doesn't happen and they thrive on this, it sets a pretty bad precedent for the consumer and the trainers getting screwed.

cresshead
08-09-2009, 05:02 PM
well if enough people are so unsure of this new rental scheme, hold off for a couple of months even trying it then the lack of revenue might prick up DT's ears and get them to add back in the e-download's.

the thing driving this move is piracy...so as soon as the first pirated 'streamed' content recorded and zipped up as a e-download appears on google searches, their move failed.

actually $45 to access ALL of their training is going to make pirates really happy!

Seraca
08-09-2009, 05:07 PM
the thing driving this move is piracy...so as soon as the first pirated 'streamed' content recorded and zipped up as a e-download appears on google searches, their move failed.


Well that is inevitable.
but that's the reality of the Digital Age.





Cheers

cresshead
08-09-2009, 08:02 PM
Well that is inevitable.
but that's the reality of the Digital Age.





Cheers

yeaah true, but we're not seeing a whole load of people cheering and throwing parties for the intorduction of rental over buying are we?

most think it's not such a great idea if they stop e-downloads in favor of rental only, and if it's based on anti piracy then the pirate have a simpler job now..$45 and the whole thing's up for grabs rather than they get ahold of 1 training disc to copy.

seems to be a lose lose win...

DT lose their whole lib to pirates
legit cutomers lose [the right to buyand keep]
pirates win with just $45 investment.

Seraca
08-10-2009, 03:22 AM
No option will stop the pirates anyway.
Streaming only Discourages them slightly because using a screen recording program
like "Screenflow or "screenuim"
etc. does Force the person to sit all day record everything in real time just like pointing a video camera at a movie or live event.
So DT chose the lesser of the three
between physical: DVD (very easy to rip)
Digital Downloads: (even easier in many respects,)

And streaming: long and tedious to record and takes up huge amount of disc space if recorded at high quality thus needs to be re encoded to a reasonable delivery format for "sharing"

The digital distribution model is moving forward on MANY fronts
so we will all have to adjust accordingly




Cheers

Karnageddon
08-10-2009, 03:43 AM
Streaming only Discourages them slightly because using a screen recording program
like "Screenflow or "screenuim"
etc. does Force the person to sit all day record everything in real time just like pointing a video camera at a movie or live event.

Not even that, there's plenty of download accelerators that freely advertise rtmp/stmp recording capabilities that only require to run the stream without the need to play it through and save it directly in their native format, not to mention the dozens of firefox add-ons that allow this as well. It just downloads the stream like a regular file and they have been around for years now, so that really makes you wonder; was piracy the real reason for the change or did someone forget to do their research before suggesting these new measures to prevent piracy?

Shenan
08-10-2009, 04:04 AM
Here's something that I'm not understanding in this discussion so far: why do people feel so differently about this new plan vs. something like Lynda.com? I usually only hear praise for Lynda.com's monthly membership plan, but so far there's mostly been complaints about DT's new model.

Is the issue that they don't offer a cheaper option without project files (like Lynda.com's $25/mo plan), or is it because they don't offer DVDs for sale like Lynda does? The thing is that if the issue is the DVD, the Lynda DVD's don't really seem a realistic/practical option to me - who pays $150 for one training DVD? Otherwise, their plans are roughly equivalent in my eyes - $400/year vs. $375/year for Lynda.com's similar plan.

Or I guess the third option is that you folks that don't like the new DT plan also don't like and don't use Lynda.com's subscription plans either? I could definitely see this being an issue for anyone with bandwidth caps and metering.

I just wondered about this though...

TomThumb
08-10-2009, 04:08 AM
The digital distribution model is moving forward on MANY fronts
so we will all have to adjust accordingly

And WE can also show them that THEY need to adjust as well.

i.e. sell the content as DVD in addition

R10k
08-10-2009, 04:37 AM
Or I guess the third option is that you folks that don't like the new DT plan also don't like and don't use Lynda.com's subscription plans either? I could definitely see this being an issue for anyone with bandwidth caps and metering.

Am I the only one who thinks it's strange comparing Lynda to DT?

I think DT are bonkers. They have a ton of [potential] customers saying, "We don't want an online only service. Despite digital disribution being a big thing, we like the advantages DVD brings us. Sell us both options." and DT ignore what they're saying and just go ahead with whatever they had in mind to do.

Karnageddon
08-10-2009, 04:39 AM
Here's something that I'm not understanding in this discussion so far: why do people feel so differently about this new plan vs. something like Lynda.com? I usually only hear praise for Lynda.com's monthly membership plan, but so far there's mostly been complaints about DT's new model.

Is the issue that they don't offer a cheaper option without project files (like Lynda.com's $25/mo plan), or is it because they don't offer DVDs for sale like Lynda does? The thing is that if the issue is the DVD, the Lynda DVD's don't really seem a realistic/practical option to me - who pays $150 for one training DVD? Otherwise, their plans are roughly equivalent in my eyes - $400/year vs. $375/year for Lynda.com's similar plan.

Or I guess the third option is that you folks that don't like the new DT plan also don't like and don't use Lynda.com's subscription plans either? I could definitely see this being an issue for anyone with bandwidth caps and metering.

I just wondered about this though...

I never signed up with Lynda after trying them out for that reason as well. Instead my money went towards Chapters and the assortment of 3ds max books they carry. It had nothing to do with bandwidth caps, I just like the fact that I can have the reference whenever i need it, without having to deal with additional costs and if I wanted to I could read it the 2 hours I spend in a bus everyday rather than hoping for a wifi connection along the way so I could stream it. After all, the content they have can barely be considered training for professionals from what I've seen, so I assume students and intermediately skilled artists are a pretty good chunk of their customers.
Just another example: I decided to look at a tutorial on Lynda or DT with a subscription and later decided I no longer need the subscription for months where I failed to use their service.

After a few more months and tons of more information relating to the software being pounded into my head, I cannot recall something I had learned earlier using DT, I have to now go back, renew my subscription for a small piece of information, or one sentence from that tutorial, which is now going to cost me $45 the first time I used it and $45 when I renewed my subscription, lets say a year later, costing me an additional $45 for that one tutorial I had already paid for.

On the other hand, I now have books, some of which come with dvd's that contain the scene files and pdf's (which I prefer over video anyways, dont ask why, i'm probably the only person who does) and I can easily open up the book again, go to whatever I needed to refresh my mind to and not have to worry about spending another $45 (which is an issue when you're a student; not to mention the ethical dillema I have with paying twice for something I still wont get to own)

My problem is not the price, if they charged $5 more and allowed me to own, if not physically, then virtually own the training. By which i mean, once I view a training under a subscription, it is added to my account and I am allowed to view it ANYTIME, even without a subscription, then I would have no issue paying the $45 plus the additional $5. Even if it is not entirely convenient to me, it is at least fair to me as a customer to have rights to using the material after purchasing it, rather than giving them my money to compensate for their losses over piracy from people who are not willing to pay.

I was really hoping for a change with this because I like supporting smaller companies and I'd rather have my money go to DT than Lynda, when I start my bachelors in less than a year. But if there's no change, then more money for authors, private publishers and book stores.

Seraca
08-10-2009, 09:50 AM
Not even that, there's plenty of download accelerators that freely advertise rtmp/stmp recording capabilities that only require to run the stream without the need to play it through and save it directly in their native format, not to mention the dozens of firefox add-ons that allow this as well. It just downloads the stream like a regular file and they have been around for years now, so that really makes you wonder; was piracy the real reason for the change or did someone forget to do their research before suggesting these new measures to prevent piracy?


Hi
if you been to a site like hulu.com you would see
that they have set up their streams in a way where there is no
local Caching in your browser, NONE of those download accelerators work with a proper set up.
I have the Firefox "Download helper" plugin for junk video sites like youtube that don't have copyright protected content,
but it Does not even detect that I watching a video when I stream a Video over at DT.
yes I know its an ongoing "battle of technology"
but right now Streaming is the best option to at least deter the content pirates.




Cheers

Seraca
08-10-2009, 10:08 AM
And WE can also show them that THEY need to adjust as well.

i.e. sell the content as DVD in addition

The Cost of producing/shipping DVD's is apparently no longer
justifiable to them so yes it is we who have to adjust to the economic reality.
But I am a little amazed at the self righteous sense of entitlement to a DVD etc, by people here.:eek:
If you dont like this delivery format then fine.. dont use it.
like any other third party service you may not like.

Only Autodesk is actually obligated to provide you with constructively possessed training material on MAX,Softimage or whatever, so any materials from a third party is nice option if available but not a guaranteed right.


Cheers




Cheers

R10k
08-10-2009, 11:10 AM
but right now Streaming is the best option to at least deter the content pirates.

Streaming does nothing to deter piracy.

Seraca
08-10-2009, 01:39 PM
Streaming does nothing to deter piracy.

Nothing truly does Deter this type of activity
but from a technological standpoint recording your screen
is the most difficult mostly just due to the realtime nature of it.
And even if you assume that the same number of people will sit there and do video screen recordings, as the number who would Illegally transcode & Distribute the physical DVD's

DT would still be Ahead because they did NOT bear the material costs of producing,packaging,storing & shipping physical DVD's.






Cheers

SoulVector
08-10-2009, 02:44 PM
DT would still be Ahead because they did NOT bear the material costs of producing,packaging,storing & shipping physical DVD's.

Personally I could do without fancy packaging. The producing has already been done since it is made for streaming except a dvd menu which is not really necessary. Just slap the lesson files on a dvd and send it away. The storing part is not necessary since they exist on a harddrive at DT so its just a matter of burning them on, yet again, a dvd and mail them to the customer. I hardly think there are much more effort in doing this and the extra time of actually writing the disc and the shipping cost should of course be charged for and I imagine it wouldn't be that much extra cost. So from a customer point of view this is much better because it allows me to watch it whenever I want without silly monthly fees. Internet costs money, I have limited bandwidth and being offline does not cost money. And as you say of course DT are not obliged to offer any learning service and it is up to them to decide their own deliver routine but I guess that in a way DT have come across as a very accessible learning resource in the past and choosing streaming only seems like they are narrowing down to a limited types of customers.

R10k
08-10-2009, 03:22 PM
...from a technological standpoint recording your screen is the most difficult mostly just due to the realtime nature of it.

Inconvenient, yes. Difficult, no. Trust me- many people would happily sit down and record everything DT has on offer.

DT would still be Ahead because they did NOT bear the material costs of producing,packaging,storing & shipping physical DVD's.

You must be imagining something completely different to me, because that doesn't make any sense. Someone buys a DVD from DT (or records the equivalent of one), and uploads it to a torrent site. Others download it from there. How does DT lose anything in regards to the cost of packaging, in either case?

Seraca
08-10-2009, 04:50 PM
You must be imagining something completely different to me, because that doesn't make any sense. Someone buys a DVD from DT (or records the equivalent of one), and uploads it to a torrent site. Others download it from there. How does DT lose anything in regards to the cost of packaging, in either case?

Simple economics
after my initial costs of Hardware&IT set up my unit cost per delivered (Downloaded) lesson is basicly Zero.
there is an ongoing $$cost$$ in buying blank DVD stock& cases MASS duping hardware or farming out to mass Duping service providers,and employees to handle processing of orders for delivery/shipping
and when after all that the "pirates" start distributing your ripped content online for FREE and destroy your sales
you are still stuck with unsold physical inventory that you paid to have burned to disc/printed& packaged etc.

when the "pirates" sit and screen record& Distribute your streams you are still hurt financially but you at least didnt spend any money on unsold physical inventory (Discs etc) that you cant sell.

The cost of a Digital product is always less than a physical one in the long run.
But Frankly my advice is to not become so dependent on these third party training providers in the first place.

I mean there still is such a thing as reading your Manual that came with your software and participating in online forums etc..



Cheers

ulb
08-10-2009, 04:57 PM
Frankly I don't care about physical support, but if I can't download to my hard disk what I'm paying for, I'm not interested.

The problem is that I (and I don't feel alone) want to be able to buy the tutorials I want and keep them forever on my HD.

I feel realy uncomfortable to pay for that kind of stuff and be left with nothing once my subscription ended.

Shenan
08-10-2009, 07:00 PM
Am I the only one who thinks it's strange comparing Lynda to DT?

Why do you think it's strange comparing the two? I'm not arguing, just curious why you perceive them as different. In my view, they're in the same business: selling (renting? :)) video tutorials about content creation apps. It's just that Lynda is more focused on 2D and DT is more focused on 3D, but they both have some overlap in their offerings.

TomThumb
08-10-2009, 08:37 PM
The Cost of producing/shipping DVD's is apparently no longer
justifiable to them so yes it is we who have to adjust to the economic reality.

Well... I'm pretty sure you don't know FOR CERTAIN why they have chosen this route.The cost of producing DVD's is EXTREMELY negligible and they CAN charge extra for this. I see very little difference in offering the DVD (for which the content is already created) and shipping it. Simple DVD/CD paper sleeve and cheap postal shipping. You're reasoning is only an excuse for DT not selling the DVD. Even Lynda.com sells the DVD/CD.

But I am a little amazed at the self righteous sense of entitlement to a DVD etc, by people here.:eek:

? Where do you think people here feel ENTITLED to have the DVD? People are merely expressing their opinions and since we have HAD DT sell us DVD's in the past, many here would like that to continue.

If you dont like this delivery format then fine.. dont use it.
like any other third party service you may not like.

Which is exactly what I said previously. If you don't like it, tell them so with your wallet. THEN they may listen. Otherwise... it doesn't matter.

Tej
08-10-2009, 09:10 PM
A lot of these posted views have gone into discussions about piracy,torrents,recordings etc., and a lot of people don't like the idea of just watching streaming videos online and not having them handy on disks when they need to watch it in case of being not on the internet.

Personally I am taking an year off just to begin learning software packages and work on my showreel etc. If you are an intermediate or advanced user, subscription is not going to be the taste for most of you. But as a starter or beginner like me, where you have got lots of new things to learn, 400 dollars annually is not too bad. You would be spending far more on DVDs and institutions, but here the information available for the fraction of the price of DVDs to get you ready for the job is what I think is invaluable to learners.

Though you have to be connected to be learning, there are very few places or people who have limited bandwidth nowadays except in office scenarios. At home most of us have got unlimited access to broadband. The place where I am now in the UK is 10MBps broadband, but when I get the subscription and from where I will be learning is India where the broadband is at 256KBps and there are regular electricity cuts and disconnections in broadband every few hours. Now that would actually give me a break from learning and consuming too much information, haha just a bad joke. There are ups and downs with every new model but I certainly agree for more intermediate/advanced users e-download and dvds would have been a very good option.

Personally for a newbie like me 400 annually is still a lot but in terms of the quality and quantity of information I think its worth it. I couldn't afford to buy a Maya bundle dvd pack for 3000$ or 15 DVDs for 600$ or 40000$ at VFS, but I think DT have done a very good job of keeping the price low despite some disappointed learners who wish to have stuff handy to refer back to. I have been away for CG for more than a year now, but this has given a very good chance to start it afresh, so most likely I will go for it.

I wouldn't bother too much about piracy, I will be too busy learning.

Tej

Seraca
08-11-2009, 04:18 PM
I wouldn't bother too much about piracy, I will be too busy learning.

Tej


Well the whole "they will be destroyed by pirates !!", argument has Nothing to do with learning .
People will still learn and some people will still do unauthorized file sharing/copying etc.
That does not change the reality that physical Media for digital content both Educational & Entertainment ..is most certainly DOOMED.





Cheers

TomThumb
08-11-2009, 08:49 PM
That does not change the reality that physical Media for digital content both Educational & Entertainment ..is most certainly DOOMED.

And that may take ten or twenty more years. I recall quite vividly in the 70's that it was said we'll soon have a paperless society. And we have more paper requirements today than we did then. Yes.. we have a significant amount of digital delivery, but professing the end of all things "substantial" may end up taking quite a bit longer than you think.

arctor
08-11-2009, 09:05 PM
I for one would rather pay a very reasonable subscription for lots of content that will be updated and that I can access almost anywhere than for an educational DVD that will be mostly out of date in 12-18 months that I can loose/break

$0.02

ThE_JacO
08-12-2009, 09:45 AM
Well the whole "they will be destroyed by pirates !!", argument has Nothing to do with learning .
People will still learn and some people will still do unauthorized file sharing/copying etc.
That does not change the reality that physical Media for digital content both Educational & Entertainment ..is most certainly DOOMED.

Regardless, dropping physical media, which I'm in favour of for contents like this, doesn't justify one bit the choice to complete drop the e-download option too, which should have still been offered as a quota per month or as a small per-download price.
The fact that's also been made unavailable spells out greed in my opinion.

Seraca
08-12-2009, 10:22 AM
Well only time will tell


cheers

cheebamonkey
08-13-2009, 10:50 PM
I for one would rather pay a very reasonable subscription for lots of content that will be updated and that I can access almost anywhere than for an educational DVD that will be mostly out of date in 12-18 months that I can loose/break

$0.02

saying they will update their content that often is different from actually doing it. There are a few other sites that claimed to do that but never delivered, yet they have people's money and that in the end mattered the most.

I only have heartedly have faith in DT. Not enough to pay a subscription with no download options for taking training on the go. Still a bad move which I hope they'll feel the pressure from eventually.

bisenberger
08-29-2009, 01:44 AM
I finally got around to checking this out. Looks like a ton of work and energy has gone into setting this up!

Looks really cool to me:applause:

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