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ThirdEye
08-03-2009, 04:29 PM
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=13571400

ThirdEye
08-03-2009, 04:32 PM
FaceRobot sure got a lot cheaper.

Indeed. They integrated a 100,000 bucks app into a 3000 bucks one? I don't get it...

Cheesestraws
08-03-2009, 04:33 PM
FaceRobot sure got a lot cheaper.

Ollarin
08-03-2009, 04:44 PM
Whoa! Facerobot in Softimage, that's insane! O_o

I guess they weren't selling as many licenses as they hoped for Facerobot. (Though, it would end up to about the same if not more with people buying SI at $3000.)

Ahh...I love SIGGRAPH. It's like christmas. :P

*Jumps over to read about the Maya release* Hope it's as awesome as integrating Facerobot. >_>

Venkman
08-03-2009, 04:54 PM
Whoa! Facerobot in Softimage, that's insane! O_o

I guess they weren't selling as many licenses as they hoped for Facerobot. (Though, it would end up to about the same if not more with people buying SI at $3000.)

Ahh...I love SIGGRAPH. It's like christmas. :P

*Jumps over to read about the Maya release* Hope it's as awesome as integrating Facerobot. >_>


Looks like they integrated Toxik, or something remarkably similar. I don't know if that is exciting or not. ;)

Ollarin
08-03-2009, 05:01 PM
Looks like they integrated Toxik, or something remarkably similar. I don't know if that is exciting or not. ;)

Honestly I don't think that's very exciting, to me at least, that's probably because I don't do much compositing, to me it makes no sense. It's like putting an apple in a shoe, totally random for me. (Again, others may think otherwise, I'm not much of a compositor though. Always pass it down the pipeline for someone else to do or just render something simple and comp it, which is the basic stuff, not complex. :p)

Ah well, combining Complete and Unlimited is cool, for the price drop. :p

EDIT: Sorry, didn't mean to go off topic. This is for Softimage. *Whistles and walks away*

Bullit
08-03-2009, 05:03 PM
http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/softimage_2010_product_brochure_us.pdf

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/softimage_topreasonstobuy_us.pdf

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/softimage_topreasonstoupgrade_us.pdf

wurp
08-03-2009, 05:12 PM
it was only worth 100k because they said it was, in relation to how much softimage did/does, 100k was not a fair price for facerobot, it only cost that much because of the small userbase and the support you got with it, as well that it was a pretty unique tool.

either way it's great that it now comes with softimage

Indeed. They integrated a 100,000 bucks app into a 3000 bucks one? I don't get it...

SFDD
08-03-2009, 05:22 PM
I'm guessing by seeing no mention of a mental ray update, we'll be stuck with the same mess we have now in 7.5.

punchatz
08-03-2009, 05:26 PM
Ok I am going to give you my 2 cents as a beta tester

"Look carefully, they have changed the UI for Softimage 2010,"

No they did not.

for those who say "all we got is face robot"..... which is nothing to sneeze at....there is plenty of other things to be happy about

Not true at all...this is NOT like 7.5...this is a real solid release, the performance gains alone would make it very strong release. I feel like I am stuck in the mud when I have to use pre 2010 versions. Thats not just marketing hype.

The user normal tools are awesome and they are not just for games. I can now use things like booleans for hard surface models be cause I can now tweak the normals to make flawless looking hard surface surfaces without the need for subdivisions.

That and there was a LONG beta that squashed many bugs that we have all wanted fixed...

I am very happy about this release :)


Greg

Chris-TC
08-03-2009, 06:21 PM
Looks like they integrated Toxik, or something remarkably similar. I don't know if that is exciting or not. ;)
It might be minorly exciting if they actually integrated it (FX Tree style). But as I understand it, the apps remain separate (same with Matchmover) and are just sold together.

xsitar
08-03-2009, 07:19 PM
And when is it gonna be out?

sacslacker
08-03-2009, 07:46 PM
Rumor has it, we'll be able to download from subscription next week.

Cheesestraws
08-03-2009, 07:53 PM
Well next week is when Maya 2010 becomes available, I guess that would make sense for Softimage too.

Lone Deranger
08-03-2009, 08:39 PM
Disclaimer on the Face Robot thing:

Note: The Face Robot toolset is not supported on the Linux® operating system; however, the loading and rendering of Face Robot scenes is supported.[/i]

I'm liking the sound of the speed improvements!

Has any upgrade and pricing info been released yet?

cavekid
08-03-2009, 09:07 PM
wow, autodesk really are strict, no upgrades for softimage versions prior to 7.5, ....oh well, think I'll just have to live with v7.0 (am a compositor so it'll work fine for me for the foreseeable future (until an OS change breaks it). Here's the info i found on the 3D World website:

Upgrade Pricing



From Softimage 7.5 Windows to Softimage 2010 Windows will be US$1,495* SRP
From Softimage 7.5 Linux to Softimage 2010 Linux will be US$1,645* SRP
From Softimage 7.5 Advanced to Softimage Advanced 2010 Windows/Linux will be US$2,345* SRP
There will be no upgrades available for versions prior to Softimage 7.5
http://www.3dworldmag.com/page/3dworld?entry=autodesk_integrates_face_robot_into

Strang
08-03-2009, 09:16 PM
wow, autodesk really are strict, no upgrades for softimage versions prior to 7.5, ....

they did give people the option when the acquisition was made

Lone Deranger
08-03-2009, 09:33 PM
No 7.0.1 upgrade path means lost customer here. :shrug:
Au revoir ADSK!


Upgrade Pricing

There will be no upgrades available for versions prior to Softimage 7.5

jamination
08-03-2009, 09:35 PM
wow, autodesk really are strict, no upgrades for softimage versions prior to 7.5, ....oh well, think I'll just have to live with v7.0 (am a compositor so it'll work fine for me for the foreseeable future (until an OS change breaks it). Here's the info i found on the 3D World website:

Upgrade Pricing


From Softimage 7.5 Windows to Softimage 2010 Windows will be US$1,495* SRP
From Softimage 7.5 Linux to Softimage 2010 Linux will be US$1,645* SRP
From Softimage 7.5 Advanced to Softimage Advanced 2010 Windows/Linux will be US$2,345* SRP
There will be no upgrades available for versions prior to Softimage 7.5
http://www.3dworldmag.com/page/3dworld?entry=autodesk_integrates_face_robot_into

I don't get the logic in this, it can only serve to reduce the number of XSI users, and make XSI a more expendable product in the eyes of Autodesk. C'mon, everything more than 1/2 a version ago, is non-upgradebable, that is pathetic.

Phil

Cheesestraws
08-03-2009, 09:42 PM
It believe it has more to do with 7.0 not being an Autodesk release. They normally let you upgrade from 2 versions back.

cavekid
08-03-2009, 09:46 PM
I am guessing most CG artists (and certainly facilities) that use Softimage would have done the upgrade and subscription when Autodesk took the helm, but there will certainly be a lot of hobbiests and freelancers (such as myself) who didn't want to bother shelling out for the lacklustre 7.5 upgrade (combined with a hefty subscription in a currency with a bad exchange rate), thinking they'd see what the next full version had in store. Thems the breaks, but it is kind of a strange they seem to want to get rid of a lot of potential upgraders (I would have thought they'd use this release to capture a lot more users into Autodesk subscription, then start to toughen things up when the next release came out, to their usual Autodesk 1 version upgrade allowance). I prefer Adobe's take where you can miss every second release and still upgrade your products (a lot of folk I know do this with their applications, just buying an update every second release).

On a side note, will be interesting to see if bundling Toxic with Maya will start to give Autodesk some market share with that app as it has been floundering next to Nuke and Fusion in regards to users taking it up (RIP Shake, you were a good friend)

bsm3d
08-03-2009, 09:52 PM
Just for fun, we buyed FaceRobot Site licence 6 months ago and we must waiting 4 months to get it delivered !! now it's in Softimage, I'm curious what's our reseller offering us as gift for that's !

cavekid
08-03-2009, 10:05 PM
Just for fun, we buyed FaceRobot Site licence 6 months ago and we must waiting 4 months to get it delivered !! now it's in Softimage, I'm curious what's our reseller offering us as gift for that's !

Ouch!!! ....here's hoping you get a site licence of XSI and they refund the difference!

helluvapixel
08-03-2009, 10:43 PM
they did give people the option when the acquisition was made
Hah, that was basically extortion. Pay the upgrade or never again be able to upgrade your license. In fact I don't recall them even saying you HAD to upgrade to 7.5 for future versions.

This is a let down, but this cemented it for me. Adesk is a really lousy company when it comes to customer focus and so many of their policies and EULA requirements are ludicrous.

I suppose Adesk has afforded themselves the luxury being able to stranglehold much of the industry in its monopolistic grasp, for the time being.

Strang
08-03-2009, 11:17 PM
Hah, that was basically extortion.

yep, it seems that way

ThE_JacO
08-03-2009, 11:33 PM
Hah, that was basically extortion.
By any other name...
2010 is actually a pretty damn good version, it's what a lot of people cried and stomped their feet for for years, a massive scalability and stability fix-job with some everyday features. Facerobot is just gravy and a bit of feature list beefing.

The upgrade policy though, particularly since 7.5 was basically a license repackaging, is f'in dumb. Considering the app just migrated between companies and many people are still figuring out whether they like it or not, it was as stupid a move as it gets. I hope market pressure and siggraph will get them to reconsider quick.

PixelTricks
08-03-2009, 11:55 PM
I agree the no upgrade from 7.0 is a bad move. I have already emailed Autodesk to let them know that I can't justify buying 2010 if that will be the policy. Suggest others do the same.
Make sure to tell your Autodesk dealer as well.

Lone Deranger
08-03-2009, 11:57 PM
They never did.
There have been a lot of complaints voiced on various forums about the v7.5 exortion deal. With SoftImage employees chiming in: "Thank you, your comments are very helpful to us... we are listening". :rolleyes:

I even directly e-mailed a few SoftImage people, asking them if v7.5 had to be purchased if I wanted to stay in the upgrade loop. The answers I got back were: "We can't comment on roadmaps", "don't have an answer for that" and "................".

What a wonderful way to cut off a part of your customer base Autodesk! Good show!

In fact I don't recall them even saying you HAD to upgrade to 7.5 for future versions.

ZacD
08-04-2009, 12:21 AM
This has been a rough transition from Avid to Autodesk, normally companies try to make it as smooth as possible, autodesk almost seems like their trying to kill off the softimage userbase.

SFDD
08-04-2009, 12:28 AM
This has been a rough transition from Avid to Autodesk, normally companies try to make it as smooth as possible, autodesk almost seems like their trying to kill off the softimage userbase.

When mysterious things happen in a company, it's usually the result of strategy or chaos. I think we're quick to give Autodesk too much credit by theorizing there's some grand plan in place. Honestly, I think the XSI purchase was made because it could be made--they had the money. They bought it before someone else bought it whom they'd have to compete with in the marketplace. But I doubt they ever had a big plan for how it would all fall into place. And I think we're seeing the fallout of that now.

It reminds me of the conspiracy theories surrounding the Bush administration. "Conspiracy" requires strategy and flawless execution, neither of which I think was going on in the Bush Whitehouse then, or is going on at Autodesk today.

This just seems like good old fashioned corporate chaos that Autodesk Marketing is trying to spin into the execution of a strategy.

ZacD
08-04-2009, 12:42 AM
I'm not saying they have some plan, just saying the way they treat their customer is crap.

Ordibble-Plop
08-04-2009, 12:42 AM
Just adding my name as another with XSI 7 who will not be buying 2010 because of AD's policy.

At least this seems like the last chapter in a sorry tale:

-Avid entice people to buy XSI 7 with crazy upgrade prices but fail to tell people they will be selling XSI to AD within months
-AD offer 7.5 but fail to tell people that if they don't upgrade to it they won't then be able to upgrade to 2010
-AD release 2010 but decide not to let XSI 7 users upgrade

Right now I am wondering if ZBrushe's GoZ is going to work with my version of XSI. If not, then XSI 7 will probably be fairly quickly replaced as my primary software, but not with Softimage 2010.

Ordibble-Plop
08-04-2009, 12:51 AM
This just seems like good old fashioned corporate chaos that Autodesk Marketing is trying to spin into the execution of a strategy.

Looked at as a whole, I would agree with you.

But at some point the question was raised: Should we allow users who did not upgrade to Softimage 7.5 to upgrade to 2010? And somewhere a group of people in a room decided the answer was 'no'.

I can't honestly think of a good reason why they would do this. I got my XSI 7 license from AD and they have my info already, so it surely can't be an administration issue? It is admittedly rather dramatic, but instead it feels like, 'You weren't with us (for Softimage 7.5), therefore you are against us and we will not let you upgrade'.

pete
08-04-2009, 12:53 AM
FR sounds interesting but I don't know how good it is unless you're using mocap.
I was really hoping they'd ad more to the ICE stuff, ICE Kinematics maybe...

I hope they fixed up the wacom tablet issue with all those speed improvements.

duke
08-04-2009, 01:51 AM
The inability to upgrade from anything beyond the last release is absurd. There's not arguing that those who did not want the features of, or could not afford the last upgrade gain no advantage over those who could by upgrading at the same price - those that could, gained from having the features of that past release. This is AD's usual "get maintainance or get lost" bullshit policy. I remember the good old days when there was competition...

Rezonance
08-04-2009, 01:53 AM
I have just realised that Autodesk own Maya, Max and Softimage. Isn't that some kind of monopoly? Aren't they strangling the market for pro 3d apps? Who is their competition now?

Magnus3D
08-04-2009, 02:04 AM
Hehe, you just realised that ?! :D it been a hot topic here on CGTalk since day one and still is.. anyhow, they have no real competition, they simply absorb everyone with this motto in mind "Resistance is futile!" from the Borg in Star Trek.

About the new Maya release, i'm a bit ashamed to admit that it actually looks quite nice. It has some fine features in it but it's way overpriced. :(

/ Magnus

Bellsey
08-04-2009, 02:05 AM
FR sounds interesting but I don't know how good it is unless you're using mocap.
I was really hoping they'd ad more to the ICE stuff, ICE Kinematics maybe...

I hope they fixed up the wacom tablet issue with all those speed improvements.

You can hand keyframe very easily with FR. Before 2010, FR was actually built on top of the Softimage technology, so it has all the normal and cool animation features.

Mic_Ma
08-04-2009, 02:11 AM
Face robot sounds very good but vague "speed improvements" sound a bit too much like marketing-speak for "script-dabbling" to me. I was hoping for something that could challenge Houdini at least a little. Propper dynamics, more ICE, etc.

I guess it's OK as a release, not bad, nothing terribly new though, just some old stuff integrated and a bit of code shuffling. The good old timetested Autodesk strategy.

Bellsey
08-04-2009, 02:21 AM
Face robot sounds very good but vague "speed improvements" sound a bit too much like marketing-speak for "script-dabbling" to me. I was hoping for something that could challenge Houdini at least a little. Propper dynamics, more ICE, etc.

I guess it's OK as a release, not bad, nothing terribly new though, just some old stuff integrated and a bit of code shuffling. The good old timetested Autodesk strategy.

Unfortunately speed and performance increases are never exciting when compared to actual big ticket features, but they are significant. It's just hard to really show how good some of them are. Feedback from customers on Beta has been very positive and some scenes that had previously taken some time to load, not open in half the time, sometimes even faster. The scene debug tools have also been well received.

R10k
08-04-2009, 02:26 AM
The upgrade policy though, particularly since 7.5 was basically a license repackaging, is f'in dumb. Considering the app just migrated between companies and many people are still figuring out whether they like it or not, it was as stupid a move as it gets. I hope market pressure and siggraph will get them to reconsider quick.

QFA

On 7.01 here, and pretty much a freelancer. There's no way I'm even going to think twice about upgrading.

ZacD
08-04-2009, 02:26 AM
Hehe, you just realised that ?! :D it been a hot topic here on CGTalk since day one and still is.. anyhow, they have no real competition, they simply absorb everyone with this motto in mind "Resistance is futile!" from the Borg in Star Trek.

About the new Maya release, i'm a bit ashamed to admit that it actually looks quite nice. It has some fine features in it but it's way overpriced. :(

/ Magnus

Adobe has the same pretty much a monopoly, and nobody seems to care. :curious:

ThE_JacO
08-04-2009, 02:51 AM
Face robot sounds very good but vague
What before was the face robot app now is integrated in XSI in full.

"speed improvements" sound a bit too much like marketing-speak for "script-dabbling" to me.
I can assure you it definitely isn't "script-dabbling".
We're talking of core changes that make undo a breeze, reduce memory footprint considerably, make the animation editor tenfold faster with massive selections, makes scene management with thousands of objects anything between 3 and 40 times faster, reference models 4 times faster to load, export and events a lot snappier, and other things of that type.
It was what almost all development effort went into, at the expense of new features, and it's definitely an immediately percievable improvement in day to day work, not just some messing around with things here and there.

I guess it's OK as a release, not bad, nothing terribly new though, just some old stuff integrated and a bit of code shuffling. The good old timetested Autodesk strategy.
And you've been through a year of beta to form that opinion? ;)
The upgrade policies are a fumble, but the release is anything but changes poor, just most are where it matters and not necessarily bullet points in a feature list.

Mic_Ma
08-04-2009, 03:07 AM
I can assure you it definitely isn't "script-dabbling".
We're talking of core changes that make undo a breeze, reduce memory footprint considerably, make the animation editor tenfold faster with massive selections, makes scene management with thousands of objects anything between 3 and 40 times faster, reference models 4 times faster to load, export and events a lot snappier, and other things of that type.

I'm happy to stand corrected but I'm sure you understand that I'll want to see it with my own shiny eyes. It would make XSI very fast indeed.

Mike RB
08-04-2009, 03:08 AM
Wow, maybe we all need to go drink the Houdini kool-aid and be done with this nonsense. Ouch.

Or pressure Luxology to step up whats offered in modo to a full solution.... Or wait for core... :)

ThE_JacO
08-04-2009, 03:11 AM
I'm happy to stand corrected but I'm sure you understand that I'll want to see it with my own shiny eyes. It would make XSI very fast indeed.
I understand that, but until then maybe posting assumptions can be avoided? ;)

Wow, maybe we all need to go drink the Houdini kool-aid and be done with this nonsense. Ouch.

Or pressure Luxology to step up whats offered in modo to a full solution.... Or wait for core...
Could we please leave flame baits out of news threads altogether?

duke
08-04-2009, 03:14 AM
Or pressure Luxology to step up whats offered in modo to a full solution.... :)

Or maybe they should step up and make it stable/production-worthy. I used to be a huge Modo fan and user, but I was burned so many times by constant crashing and general instability that it negated most of what made it faster. Now don't get me wrong, I know bugs exist in any software, and you get to know and work around/avoid them, but for Modo it's a constant kick in the pants as to where and when you'll get a crash! I didn't upgrade to 401, and am kind of glad after seeing all the posts about it's awful stability on their forums!

SFDD
08-04-2009, 03:25 AM
On this page:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=7176852&siteID=123112

Autodesk talks about "Simplified Upgrade Pricing." On it, they say, "After March 15, 2010, your upgrade from any of the three previous software releases will cost 50 percent of the price of a new license, no matter which release you own."

In this PDF, found on that page:
http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/customer_faq_autodesk_simplified_pricing_709.pdf

They say that "Autodesk simplified upgrade pricing affects all Autodesk products."

Given these documents, I'm not sure how they would be able to say that no one with anything older than 7.5 can upgrade.

I think we need to wait for an official statement from Autodesk on this upgrade stuff. The original report might not be accurate.

asche
08-04-2009, 03:34 AM
last time i checked it took softimage 7.01 2.5 hours of calculation time to search and reaplace objects with the same material ... it took maya about 50 secs .... 10.000 objects shouldnt be SO hard to handle .... i wonder what it will be now ... maya got some upgrades noone who is seriosy in this business needs, i hope softimage can at least pull a par ... sad if it cant

ThE_JacO
08-04-2009, 03:38 AM
I've had instances where operations on a couple thousand objects went from 18 minutes to 20 seconds. Kind artificial though. Other people have reported similar gains.
The version works as a trial as well, so you'll be able to see if it's up to your expectations as soon as it comes out I imagine.

Seraca
08-04-2009, 04:06 AM
Adobe has the same pretty much a monopoly, and nobody seems to care. :curious:

Nobody "cares" in the case of Adobe because Adobe has the Simple old Fashioned :buy the program or suite you want/install enter serial/use as long as you want.
( or as long as your OS will allow) and visit our lovely website when you are ready to buy or upgrade to our newest stuff. :scream:


Granted Photoshop CS4 is fast on it way to becoming "Bloatoshop"
but im still running good old Adobe CS1 On OSX.

But I admit I am finding my new Lightroom 2 to be quite Adept at basic image editing&color grading of photos and my 3D renders.


Cheers

Strang
08-04-2009, 04:07 AM
last time i checked it took softimage 7.01 2.5 hours of calculation time to search and reaplace objects with the same material ... it took maya about 50 secs .... 10.000 objects shouldnt be SO hard to handle ...

is this a script someone wrote? because i dont know of this functionality built into softimage.

R10k
08-04-2009, 05:29 AM
is this a script someone wrote? because i dont know of this functionality built into softimage.

Can't that kind of a search be done in the spreadsheet view? After that, it should be easy to assign a new material to each object.

cavekid
08-04-2009, 05:30 AM
Autodesk talks about "Simplified Upgrade Pricing." On it, they say, "After March 15, 2010, your upgrade from any of the three previous software releases will cost 50 percent of the price of a new license, no matter which release you own.".

Softimage wasn't an Autodesk product until v7.01 and isn't listed in the app list on that page so i don't think Avid Softimage XSI versions are being included, ...having said that, surely those with v7.01 which sported Autodesks logo should be entitled under that scheme. Be interesting to see if someone from Alias has commented on this over on XSIbase or the official forum, ...seems strange that 3D world would publish price info that has not been part of the press release though

luceric
08-04-2009, 05:34 AM
Can't that kind of a search be done in the spreadsheet view? After that, it should be easy to assign a new material to each object.
IMHO the best way to replace materials in Sofitmage would be to use the Material Manager,
1) right click the material, and choose "Select Objects With This Material"
2) select another material
3) click the 'Assign Material To Selected Objects' button

I doubt that you get into a situation where this can take hours, although I've seen some scenes where it took a few seconds to a lot of objects (and obviously to redraw the scene).

sciics
08-04-2009, 05:38 AM
where can i get a shirt with the new screen splash? size 'M'

Strang
08-04-2009, 05:52 AM
IMHO the best way to replace materials in Sofitmage would be to use the Material Manager,
1) right click the material, and choose "Select Objects With This Material"
2) select another material
3) click the 'Assign Material To Selected Objects' button

I doubt that you get into a situation where this can take hours, although I've seen some scenes where it took a few seconds to a lot of objects (and obviously to redraw the scene).

yes, this is a good way to replace materials, which doesn't take long to do... but asche's comment made me think there was some logic built in, ie. a script someone made. i was going to suggest that the script might be the problem, not softimage.

regardless, the performance enhancements softimage made were very high on the request list for blur and they did a great job with this.

SheepFactory
08-04-2009, 05:55 AM
where can i get a shirt with the new screen splash? size 'M'


Where is the new splash screen?

R10k
08-04-2009, 06:24 AM
IMHO the best way to replace materials in Sofitmage would be to use the Material Manager

Of course, yes. I love that material manager :)

where can i get a shirt with the new screen splash? size 'M'

What, you mean it isn't the original Face Robot character in a hoodie?

Rezonance
08-04-2009, 08:03 AM
I wonder if Adobe or Autodesk will try to buy each other out.:curious:

asche
08-04-2009, 10:52 AM
IMHO the best way to replace materials in Sofitmage would be to use the Material Manager,
1) right click the material, and choose "Select Objects With This Material"
2) select another material
3) click the 'Assign Material To Selected Objects' button

I doubt that you get into a situation where this can take hours, although I've seen some scenes where it took a few seconds to a lot of objects (and obviously to redraw the scene).

yes, that was the workflow i used (as an ex- , and maybe soon to be again) maya user
and no kidding .... couple of thousand objects, select object with material , wait some minutes, go drink a coffee, go smoke a cigarette, watch your ram go from 800 mb to 4.5 gb .... press alt-f4 about 25 mins later ....

IF it worked it took some minutes (2.5 hours for the complete task of changing about 20 materials), but it wasnt working as it should be ... and definitly no wrong scripting involved ... just extremly bad performance of the programm.
like i said, i tested it on maya on a coworkers machine, which is about 50% slower than mine, and the whole thing was hundreds of times faster ....

R10k
08-04-2009, 10:55 AM
That sounds more like a bug than anything.

Chris-TC
08-04-2009, 11:30 AM
IF it worked it took some minutes (2.5 hours for the complete task of changing about 20 materials)
LOL, 2.5 hours for 20 materials? It never occured to you that your scene file is probably corrupted, did it? You can't honestly believe ANY 3d package would be this slow by default. That'd be ridiculous.

asche
08-04-2009, 11:37 AM
actually, yes, it did occure to me ....
but since it was converted cad data, fbx, i couldnt repair much

it took me a day to fix the geometry (fixing normals, duplicate geometry, in maya btw, since it was not possible to work in xsi)
but still it was crashing and lagging and whatelse ...

but i think autodesk solved that problem for me , since they wont let me upgrade from 7.01 to 2010 ....

bsm3d
08-04-2009, 12:56 PM
For peoples who don't know FaceRobot, FR is a facial animation tools integrated into XSI. When we buyed 100 licences of FaceRobot we discover that's Softimage XSI with Facial animation module integrated inside... so FR is like HumanIK was in 3ds max but specialased into Facial animation and he do the thing very well !

Now we waiting to see what's Autodesk "deal with us" about your 100 FR site licence and maintenance...I hope at least he offering us XSI 2010 as gift !

runejw
08-04-2009, 02:37 PM
About as expected - now a full AD app including the price tag and modest iterative improvements.

Wonder if they reflect on their own upgrade brochure where one can see that XSI by itself may not be enough, but rather may need an additional Maya purchase to accomplish a goal (not to mention a purchase of 3DS MAX if you want to convert to/from MAX models). That AD so conscientiously does not cross-implement the best functions between their apps speaks volumes about their non-visionary attitude. It's all about maximizing profits.

Cheesestraws
08-04-2009, 03:30 PM
They are now streaming a Softimage 2010 presentation.

http://area.autodesk.com/siggraph2009

Markphisto
08-04-2009, 04:23 PM
Someone have a link for the nont-streaming presentation?

Bullit
08-04-2009, 05:51 PM
Interested in it too.

The user normal tools are awesome and they are not just for games. I can now use things like booleans for hard surface models be cause I can now tweak the normals to make flawless looking hard surface surfaces without the need for subdivisions.

Can you tell us a bit more about this?

Strang
08-04-2009, 08:16 PM
yes, that was the workflow i used (as an ex- , and maybe soon to be again) maya user
and no kidding .... couple of thousand objects, select object with material , wait some minutes, go drink a coffee, go smoke a cigarette, watch your ram go from 800 mb to 4.5 gb .... press alt-f4 about 25 mins later ....

IF it worked it took some minutes (2.5 hours for the complete task of changing about 20 materials), but it wasnt working as it should be ... and definitly no wrong scripting involved ... just extremly bad performance of the programm.
like i said, i tested it on maya on a coworkers machine, which is about 50% slower than mine, and the whole thing was hundreds of times faster ....

oh ok, i just thought it might be a script and the design of the script might be slow, not softimage. so you gave it a go and it didn't work for you sorry to hear that.

Imhotep397
08-04-2009, 11:00 PM
The FaceRobot addition is going to be massive and a lot of Maya houses will even buy a few seats just to get FaceRobot, but that policy on screwing license holders of versions before 7.5 is just f'd up. I know there are going to be more than a few places that will elect to to switch most of their seats to a combination of Cinema4D, their choice of specialty apps and a couple os seats of Soft instead of the whole studio just for the pricing. The lack of lower priced options in all of these cases is going to draw the ire of many, drive more studios to adopting the specialty apps like Silo, modo and ZBrush for modeling tasks.

HcyeKRa
08-04-2009, 11:36 PM
It looks like that AD wants some money back from the XSi Userbase for the buyout. ;)

Sure, the right way to pull undetermined users to their side, well done AD, that's the way to treat potential customers...

Yes, the bugfixes, performance enhancements, and FR may be well worth the full price again, but i don't believe that most of the users asked for getting FR for free... it's just a dumb move to ask for the full price in just that short time.

You force me to use 7.01 no problem, but you can suck my d... and i may rethink my decision after 2 or 3 years, after all it doesn't matter anymore. :)

scottsch
08-05-2009, 12:57 AM
I guess I am one of the lucky ones who knew how much of a deal it was to buy SI all the way up to 7.5. XSI Foundation 5.0 was the deal of the century for the 3D world, and subsequent versions have had similar value. I feel bad for users that cannot upgrade due to finances, though. XSI is the best 3D application imo.

Switching doesn't seem too productive to me when both Maya and 3dsmax are just as expensive. If you know XSI well, then moving to either program slows you down to the point where you no longer produce enough to make money. So XSI pays for itself if you stay with it and make money off it. 3dsmax poly tools and Maya's hypershade both make me cringe compared to their counterparts in XSI. (I own both 3dsmax and Maya.... XSI FTW).

I am a little disappointed they are not supporting Windows 7. That is the big shocker to me. Why not support the current MS operating system? I have 7.5 running on Win7 RC and it works great. Win7 is also a very nice OS and it will probably be more popular than Vista. The installation of Win7 on a home built computer is unreal - it is truly plug and play, you do not have to install any drivers like in XP's initial setup).

I also hope they have photometric lights now. :arteest:

The stability issue is good news. They should be congratulated for doing work under the hood that doesn't have the marketing zing, but makes a massive difference in user output.

I also should add that after getting the wind knocked out of me with the AD announcement, I am actually looking forward to this release and can get excited about XSI again. It's been a while... I guess I have been assimilated. :twisted:

Chinny
08-05-2009, 01:03 AM
It is often hard to find out the full feature list before shipping so here is a summary:

Softimage 2010 Bullet Feature List


Performance for productions

· Loading and saving

· Selecting

· Deleting (and the faster Shift+Delete)

· Undoing and redoing

· Freezing

· Using referenced models

· Duplicating

· Removing animation

· Using the function curve editor

· Hiding and unhiding

· Opening property editors of many objects

· Switching between transform tools

· Changing marked parameters



F-Curve Editor Performance

· Selecting curves, keys, and tangents has been dramatically improved.

· Drawing of Tangents

· Better Memory Management

· Smooth, Fit and Resample with many curves now performs better.

· Open/Close



Complexity Management

· Quick Filter Box is useful for quickly finding objects in the scene by name

· Scene Search View can find scene elements by name, type, selection, keywords or custom filters

· Scene Debugger to check execution time and memory consumption



Face Robot

· The complete Face Robot toolset has been integrated into Softimage 2010



ICE

· ICE Custom Node Creation in C++, Geometry Accessors, Multi-Phase Execution, Local Attributes

· ICE Tree View Improvements

· Performance Profiling shows which nodes are taking the longest to execute

· New attribute BlobStrength that controls how strongly the surfaces of blobs are pulled toward each other

· The StrandDeform attribute changes: Instances can be deformed in Y along the length of the strands

· New IsPassiveRigidBody attribute allows you to make ICE particles in a rigid body simulation into obstacles

· Rotational Motion Blur for Particle Instances

· Point Index to Location

· Wind Force more physically accurate



Modeling

· Turn Edge (Turn Polygon Internal Edges)

· User Normal editing (Tweak Normals)

· New Lattice amplitude controls



Animation

· Autokey Camera

· Hide objects on Playback for faster performance

· Shaded bones and Nulls

· F-Curves: automatic spline slope behavior from versions previous to v7.0

· New Approximate Envelope Operator for fast interaction and playback

· New Autodesk® Motion Builder® Template Rig



Display

· You can now hide manipulators per viewport



Layers:

· New Layer Groups



Texturing

· The new XSI Normal Map 3 shader replaces XSI Normal Map 2.

· There is an option to specify unbiased normals.

· The Advanced tab lets you repeat and alternate the normal map across a surface.

· RenderMap View to scene camera now uses the perspective

· Ambient Occlusion and Bent Normal Maps for RenderMap and Ultimapper

· Support for DDS Output Format

· Texture Editor can now Auto display the image clip associated with the UVs currently selected.



mental ray

· Softimage 2010 integrates mental ray version 3_7_55_19.



Render Tree

· Render Tree View improvements

· Nested Shader Property Editors



Materials

· Material Manager Favorites and User Tabs

· Export Used Image Clips Only option in the export browser.

· New Material Manager Preferences



Scripting

· New Scintilla Features for Text-Based Editors includes syntax highlighting, folding, shared text editing preferences, standard search tools and standard and alternative key mappings for copy, cut, paste, etc.



SDK

· Changes to Custom ICE Nodes Support

· New Events: I/O of Custom Files, when a Ref-Model loads and animation playback

· New View Attributes Available

· Which Clips Are Exported With Material Library options

· No Limitation On How Many Custom Menus You Can Register

· New Access for COLLADA in the Crosswalk SDK

· New Searchable Scripts Database



Crosswalk 4.0

· Supports 3ds Max 2008, 3ds Max 2009, and 3ds Max 2010.

· Supports Maya v8.5, Maya 2008, Maya 2009, and Maya 2010.

· Crosswalk for FBX now uses FBX 2010.0.

· New Classes

· New Functions

· New Enums

· New Enum Values

punchatz
08-05-2009, 01:10 AM
Interested in it too.



Can you tell us a bit more about this?

Sure,
So for years I have not used booleans in xsi (I know its softimage now, but xsi is so much easier to type) because the resulting geo would very often not shade correctly, no matter what you did with you geo approximation settings things could get fugly (thats short hand f*^%ing ugly ) real quick. Even though the boolean produced a decent looking mesh in wire frame, as soon as you shaded it you would see issues.

Now with the new normal editing tools you can correct almost all of these issues. Its a full suit of editing tools, not just a tweak tool as the info seems to suggest. You can set, average,smooth and do many other operations to the normals. I know for many packages this is not a big deal, but its great to finally have these tools in side of xsi.

Also I just thought I would mention it again....this is a very good release, one that needed to happen. It has addressed so many road blocks that we have had in xsi. I have 2010 at home....and when I have to work in 7.1 it is noticeably slower...and it effects how much you can get done in a day...but more than that , its just makes working in softimage just a more pleasant experience.

Oh yeah, we were FaceRobot customers and we are not unhappy or don't feel ripped of that they put it in Softimage, in fact we are quite happy. Now all of our artists have access to this tool set, it frees us to use FR more as we are not limited by seat count. Also AD did not leave us out to dry, they are trying to offer some things to offset the sting a bit.

As far as the no upgrades for pre 7.5, that sucks. I cant believe this is not some kind of mistake. I have a feeling if we raise enough hell about this the folks at autodesk will see the light.

my 2.5 cents

HcyeKRa
08-05-2009, 01:18 AM
@scottsch, for me personal it's not the pricing(even if i mentioned it.), but more the disliking of the policy after the buyout, it's hard be ok to buy a new seat if you then have to basically throw the not a year old 7.01 XSI in the garbage, or do you think anyone wants to buy a great piece of Software(the EULA from AD doesn't count much fully here.) ;) (with some issues), if he can't upgrade to a newer Version?

In these times i just can't get over the fact to waste money in such a dumb way.

And no my finances doesn't relate in any way to my opinion.

scottsch
08-05-2009, 01:31 AM
Sure,
So for years I have not used booleans in xsi (I know its softimage now, but xsi is so much easier to type) because the resulting geo would very often not shade correctly, no matter what you did with you geo approximation settings things could get fugly (thats short hand f*^%ing ugly ) real quick. Even though the boolean produced a decent looking mesh in wire frame, as soon as you shaded it you would see issues.

Now with the new normal editing tools you can correct almost all of these issues. Its a full suit of editing tools, not just a tweak tool as the info seems to suggest. You can set, average,smooth and do many other operations to the normals. I know for many packages this is not a big deal, but its great to finally have these tools in side of xsi.

That is very good news, especially for imported models with dense wireframes. A lot of times you could not get decent flat areas and curve areas without detaching/using hard edges, etc.

scottsch
08-05-2009, 01:45 AM
@scottch, for me personal it's not the pricing(even if i mentioned it.), but more the disliking of the policy after the buyout, it's hard be ok to buy a new seat if you then have to basically throw the not a year old 7.01 XSI in the garbage, or do you think anyone wants to buy a great piece of Software(the EULA from AD doesn't count much fully here.) ;) (with some issues), if he can't upgrade to a newer Version?

In these times i just can't get over the fact to waste money in such a dumb way.

And no my finances doesn't relate in any way to my opinion.

I see what you mean, the policy doesn't seem user friendly. But Autodesk policy is somewhat harsh for everyone, not just SI users. Maya users no longer have the $2000 version, they now have one $3000 version with more features. So newer users who were waiting for a new $2000 version of 2010 are out of luck. Current users probably have to upgrade now to get the same deal as Unlimited users. Next year they probably will not have an upgrade path.

Before Autodesk, Softimage was giving people every opportunity to upgrade reasonably and also not enforcing removal of old versions. I see it as XSI Foundation was practically a free gift, and now the pricing and upgrade paths have been adjusted to reality. XSI FND 5 and 6 was like giving out free crack cocaine on the schoolyard.

The upgrade lockout thing is certainly not fun for users but it can be justified as a business cost that is then passed onto the total project cost, imo.

ThE_JacO
08-05-2009, 02:11 AM
I am a little disappointed they are not supporting Windows 7. That is the big shocker to me. Why not support the current MS operating system? I have 7.5 running on Win7 RC and it works great. Win7 is also a very nice OS and it will probably be more popular than Vista. The installation of Win7 on a home built computer is unreal - it is truly plug and play, you do not have to install any drivers like in XP's initial setup).
Win7 isn'ty the current os, it's the next one, and it wasn't even at RC stage when the development of 2010 started.
Even if one wanted to support it, MS is still not committing to the dev guidelines and reserve themselves the right to change them until the month before release. You can't be sure yet you'll be able to put a "designed for win7" sticker on your box probably until november, at which point the software will already be out.

2010 officially supports vista and XP, and that's all that can be officially supported right now.
As far as I know things were still informally tested on win7, and a few testers tried and said it works well, but that's how far anybody can go given the circumstances.

HcyeKRa
08-05-2009, 02:19 AM
@scottsch

I know the FND stuff, im since v5 a Essentials user.


Before Autodesk, Softimage was giving people every opportunity to upgrade reasonably and also not enforcing removal of old versions. I see it as XSI Foundation was practically a free gift, and now the pricing and upgrade paths have been adjusted to reality. XSI FND 5 and 6 was like giving out free crack cocaine on the schoolyard.




Yes but justified or not, it's not a good way to get late migrating users to their side, but you know it's AD's problem.(after all they want my money, not the other way, and 7.01 still works for my needs.)


The upgrade lockout thing is certainly not fun for users but it can be justified as a business cost that is then passed onto the total project cost, imo.

John Keates
08-05-2009, 02:52 PM
So there is a more recent version of MR... any idea what is new?

valdem
08-05-2009, 05:11 PM
Softimage 7.01 (or earlier) customers who want to upgrade to Softimage 2010 should contact their resellers. Pricing and promotions vary from region to region. For instance, in some regions you can still take advantage of the upgrade promotion that has been in place since February. There are plans to have a previous version upgrade pricing in place for when Softimage 2010 ships in September, until then you should really speak to your reseller.

V.

punchatz
08-05-2009, 06:11 PM
Softimage 7.01 (or earlier) customers who want to upgrade to Softimage 2010 should contact their resellers. Pricing and promotions vary from region to region. For instance, in some regions you can still take advantage of the upgrade promotion that has been in place since February. There are plans to have a previous version upgrade pricing in place for when Softimage 2010 ships in September, until then you should really speak to your reseller.

V.

Thanks Val!!
Greg

Bullit
08-05-2009, 06:55 PM
Sure, So for years I have not used booleans in xsi (I know its softimage now, but xsi is so much easier to type) because the resulting geo would very often not shade correctly, no matter what you did with you geo approximation settings things could get fugly (thats short hand f*^%ing ugly ) real quick. Even though the boolean produced a decent looking mesh in wire frame, as soon as you shaded it you would see issues. Now with the new normal editing tools you can correct almost all of these issues. Its a full suit of editing tools, not just a tweak tool as the info seems to suggest. You can set, average,smooth and do many other operations to the normals. I know for many packages this is not a big deal, but its great to finally have these tools in side of xsi.

Thanks you Greg. I'll have to check it in more detail.

cavekid
08-05-2009, 07:51 PM
Thanks Valerie, glad to hear there might be options for those of us still on 7.01, will hassle my reseller over here.

dwigfor
08-05-2009, 08:18 PM
I'm a bit on the fence on whether to upgrade or abandon Softimage for a couple of years. I own 2 versions of XSI - 1 ADV 5.x, and 1 ESS 7.02. I can't really commit a couple thousand of dollars right now to upgrade to Autodesk. Sure people might be sick of hearing about others bitching, but when Autodesk announced their "upgrade or die" policy, and seemed to reiterate it with only offering upgrades from 7.5, it sure felt like a kick to my nutts.

Someone above mentioned that they might offer a promotion for older versions when SI 2010 is released, but it remains uncertain.. Do I go further in debt to help secure my investment, or let it rot away along with my 401k and other financial investments. What's to say Autodesk will even support previous versions of AD SI...

I might just stick with what I have and use that. I'll get work to upgrade and hopefully can export Face Robot rigged meshes back to v7.

Besides the addition of Face Robot, this version looks very weak to me. Of course the performance increases are great and can't be shown in brochures, but looking at the added features from 7.5 and 2010, it doesn't seem like much. Sorry, and maybe it's just me, but I personally can't afford paying thousand dollar upgrades/maintenance every 6 months (going back to v7 and v7.5 releases).

Maybe I should just switch to Mod Tool. Wait a version or 2, and they'll probably port Face Robot to it. Or maybe it will already be in ModTool2010.

Speaking of ModTool, does anyone use Mod Tool Pro? I was reading a tutorial (for creating cinematic physics in L4D) and they said MT6.02 could cache and lock Rigid Bodies, but they removed that feature in MT7.5. Are there any features in Mod Tool Pro that aren't enabled in regular version Mod Tool?

Don't get me wrong. I love Softimage and would love to upgrade to the new version; I just can't do it now or probably within the year..... And because of that, I'm probably ****ed.

Bellsey
08-05-2009, 09:23 PM
Speaking of ModTool, does anyone use Mod Tool Pro? I was reading a tutorial (for creating cinematic physics in L4D) and they said MT6.02 could cache and lock Rigid Bodies, but they removed that feature in MT7.5. Are there any features in Mod Tool Pro that aren't enabled in regular version Mod Tool?


Mod Tool and Mod Tool Pro are essentially the same but Mod Tool is enabled for comercial production, whereas the normal Modtool is not.

Mod Tool Pro was released for Premium Members of the XNA Creators Club only, because its possible for users to make comercial games with XNA and then into Live Arcade.

dwigfor
08-05-2009, 10:27 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Graham. That's what I thought, but wanted to make sure..

I'm kinda surprised that Autodesk doesn't advertise ModToolPro and sell it. It's almost like a Foundation lite (with no MR rendering).

Jesse-Irvin
08-05-2009, 11:27 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Graham. That's what I thought, but wanted to make sure..

I'm kinda surprised that Autodesk doesn't advertise ModToolPro and sell it. It's almost like a Foundation lite (with no MR rendering).

Because right now it's free and with MR rendering it would basically be what they are selling now.

R10k
08-06-2009, 02:51 AM
Good thoughts, dwigfor. Your situation (besides FR) sounds similar to mine.

Imhotep397
08-06-2009, 03:08 AM
I'm a bit on the fence on whether to upgrade or abandon Softimage for a couple of years. I own 2 versions of XSI - 1 ADV 5.x, and 1 ESS 7.02. I can't really commit a couple thousand of dollars right now to upgrade to Autodesk. Sure people might be sick of hearing about others bitching, but when Autodesk announced their "upgrade or die" policy, and seemed to reiterate it with only offering upgrades from 7.5, it sure felt like a kick to my nutts...

It almost seems like you may be better off switching to something like Cinema4D and adding in a license of Silo if you need really good SubD modeling. I think there are a lot of more people looking at Maxon after checking out the new AutoDesk pricing on a lot of their software.

R10k
08-06-2009, 04:11 AM
I think there are a lot of more people looking at Maxon after checking out the new AutoDesk pricing on a lot of their software.

Really? Why? Maxon's pricing is hardly what I'd call cheap.

Lone Deranger
08-06-2009, 06:42 AM
True, but for some people it's not just about the money... but also about getting away from Autodesk and it's antics.


Really? Why? Maxon's pricing is hardly what I'd call cheap.

SYmek
08-06-2009, 12:19 PM
True, but for some people it's not just about the money... but also about getting away from Autodesk and it's antics.

The point is you don't have much choices, and they know it. For someone using XSI, there isn't much options around. Anything else is a kind of regression. There is Houdini of course, but traditionally takes different place in a pipeline. Hard to imagine xsi animator switches it Houdini because adsk policy.

Lone Deranger
08-06-2009, 12:25 PM
Where there's a will, there's a way. ;)

The point is you don't have much choices, and they know it. For someone using XSI, there isn't much options around. Anything else is a kind of regression. There is Houdini of course, but traditionally takes different place in a pipeline. Hard to imagine xsi animator switches it Houdini because adsk policy.

3dtutorial
08-06-2009, 12:40 PM
I don't know... actually, I see C4D as an excellent alternative for a lot of reasons.

Among them...

A good, solid, well engineered software package.

A healthy, helpful and constantly growing user base and community.

A plethora of low cost or free 3d party tools.

A wide selection of available and working 3rd party render engines are available.

A huge section of useful presets and materials.

An excellent hair module that renders quickly and works with long hair dynamics.

A no-nonsense licensing scheme - Enter a serial number, and you are done -- fancy that!

A solid, no nonsense company which is actually helpful and user centric.

Need I go on?

:-)

ThE_JacO
08-06-2009, 02:42 PM
Need I go on?

:-)
No, if possible it'd be nice if you didn't, mostly for the sake of avoiding further flames in news threads than we've already seen in other threads :)

cresshead
08-07-2009, 10:10 PM
apart from the price, what's the difference between softimage advanced 2010 compared to softimage essentials 2010?

jamination
08-07-2009, 10:16 PM
apart from the price, what's the difference between softimage advanced 2010 compared to softimage essentials 2010?

5 mr render nodes.

Strang
08-07-2009, 11:09 PM
apart from the price, what's the difference between softimage advanced 2010 compared to softimage essentials 2010?

what phil said and softimage 2010 advanced uses network licensing and softimage 2010 just uses standalone licensing.

R10k
08-08-2009, 04:09 AM
A good, solid, well engineered software package.

I wanted to like the C4D trial, but the part of it designed to install the manual was broken (I couldn't find a way to simply install the docs) and it liked to crash whenever I rendered certain things.

ThirdEye
08-09-2009, 11:46 AM
I wanted to like the C4D trial, but the part of it designed to install the manual was broken (I couldn't find a way to simply install the docs) and it liked to crash whenever I rendered certain things.

Contact MAXON about it, never heard of anything like that before.

R10k
08-09-2009, 02:46 PM
Contact MAXON about it, never heard of anything like that before.

You know, I've done this a lot in the past, but I had to weigh up whether a chunk of my time was worth putting towards chasing up a fix that either I'll never need (because I may not buy) or ever see, because it might not make it into the version I'm looking to purchase. In this case, I chose to move on, and ignore the special price on the Core version.

Perhaps the rendering issue was a quirk because of my system... perhaps it was a rare bug I managed to find (which is possible- I'm good at finding those). Either way, the manual install was obviously broken- the instructions for installing it were out of date, referring to a dialogue that didn't exist. Eventually, after spending a fair amount of time trauling the website, I found a way to download the manual (a fairly large download, in a zip) and try to install it. The install failed. It was at that point, I thought I'd wasted enough time.

Bullit
08-09-2009, 03:51 PM
That is strange my experience with their website were okay. In end i went XSI route. In hindsight was not probably the best decision.

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