PDA

View Full Version : Maya 2010


Pages : [1] 2

grub200
08-03-2009, 04:09 PM
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=13577897&siteID=123112

DuttyFoot
08-03-2009, 04:12 PM
thank you, i have been waiting for this..

Autodesk Maya 2010 software is the first release to unify the Autodesk® Maya® Complete 2009 and Autodesk® Maya® Unlimited 2009 feature sets, advanced matchmoving capabilities, and high dynamic range compositing into a single affordable package*.

wow maya is now down to just one package. no more complete or unlimited. i wonder what it will cost??

mr-doOo
08-03-2009, 04:18 PM
I don't understand, is maya composite and toxic the same thing?

ThirdEye
08-03-2009, 04:21 PM
So basically no more Unlimited/Complete dualism, a new compositor (is that Toxic? I don't get it), new camera tracking capabilities (is that MatchMover? I don't get this either) and BackBurner. Single price: 3500 bucks (which is the same price of 3ds Max btw). Is this right?

Cheesestraws
08-03-2009, 04:30 PM
(is that Toxic? I don't get it)

Looks like Toxik to me.

ThirdEye
08-03-2009, 04:31 PM
so maya is now 3500 dollars like max, hmmm.

Softimage 2010 on the other hand is 3000. :curious:

DuttyFoot
08-03-2009, 04:32 PM
I don't understand, is maya composite and toxic the same thing?

i was gonna post about the compositor but i saw toxic logo up in the corner. i am just as confused.

Single price: 3500 bucks (which is the same price of 3ds Max btw). Is this right?

so maya is now 3500 dollars like max, hmmm.

new camera tracking capabilities (is that MatchMover? I don't get this either)

Autodesk® MatchMover™ delivers industry-leading 3D camera tracking, and is now available with Maya 2010.

i guess it is matchmover

Cheesestraws
08-03-2009, 04:35 PM
Softimage 2010 on the other hand is 3000. :curious:

And includes FaceRobot. :scream:

Anyone hear whether the universal licensing for all Autodesk applications was more than just a rumour?

ThirdEye
08-03-2009, 04:35 PM
That's cool if they are bundling a fully working compositor with Maya, Toxik or whatever, it's welcome.

Sure, but isn't Toxic a 5500 bucks app??

lazzhar
08-03-2009, 04:36 PM
That's cool if they are bundling a fully working compositor with Maya, Toxik or whatever, it's welcome.

republicavfx
08-03-2009, 04:39 PM
what's a flow deformer?

republicavfx
08-03-2009, 04:41 PM
ICE effects can be exported to Autodesk® Maya® software, enabling greater flexibility in the creation of complex simulations.

don't know how to take that

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=13571400

Cheesestraws
08-03-2009, 04:42 PM
I guess it means that Softimage now supports the nCache format for particles.

mr-doOo
08-03-2009, 04:45 PM
Actually it's not maybe the inverse..

DuttyFoot
08-03-2009, 04:47 PM
Sure, but isn't Toxic a 5500 bucks app??

actually toxik is 3500 just like max and now maya. maya got a huge price drop if you think about it.

GatorNic
08-03-2009, 04:50 PM
So wait, they basically sandwiched two of their other packages into Maya and they call that development? Lame.

Cheesestraws
08-03-2009, 04:56 PM
Well I would imagine there are more features, just need to wait for them to put the documentation up so we can see the full list.

FRimasson
08-03-2009, 04:57 PM
They would have been able at least to add some modeling update, like symetrical modeling, for example.

Ollarin
08-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Hmmm...Definitely not what I had expected or hoped for. Still cool that it has a compositor built into it, I think the biggest feature is the price drop. Which is awesome.

Feature wise, I'm kinda confused, Maya has always been for modeling, animation, etc. While having a compositor is cool, I would rather they worked on the modeling , animation, rigging, rendering, etc stuff rather than integrate a compositor into it.

Anyway, I bet a lot of people have been waiting for this, so hope they're happy. Still a cool release, for the price drop and compositor at least. :p

SI 2010 at least got a $100'000 rigging and animation tool integrated into it. That's a lot more exciting for me. (Even though I don't use XSI. :p).

Anyways, back to work for me!

neuromancer1978
08-03-2009, 04:57 PM
Well... remember when Autodesk acquired Maya and all the fallout about it? We all knew what was going to happen. Grant you that I am happy they are doing away with the 2 package options in favor of one at a single price but aside from a few improvements here or there (I think only in the cloth, physics area) there has not been ground shaking development.

Once upon a time these 3 software packages were rivals in the industry. Now they are all under one roof.

Ah well...

fahr
08-03-2009, 05:00 PM
This is great... and scary at the same time.

On the good side, it's an awesome value. Bundled Toxik, lower price, and 5 MR licences per seat.

On the bad.... well... are there any actual new features to Maya?? No QT, no new nucleus modules, no new modeling or animation.... What has the dev team been doing this past year?

Cheesestraws
08-03-2009, 05:02 PM
Maybe they have been fixing bugs, or maybe the entire feature list has not been posted yet like every time they release a new version.

Ollarin
08-03-2009, 05:04 PM
Maybe they have been fixing bugs, or maybe the entire feature list has not been posted yet like every time they release a new version.
Good point, took them a while to post the full thing up last year. :p

rebb
08-03-2009, 05:07 PM
What has the Maya Programming Team been doing since Version 2009 ?

GatorNic
08-03-2009, 05:12 PM
What has the Maya Programming Team been doing since Version 2009 ?

Working on 3ds Max 2010, I guess. They added plenty of cool new features there. :rolleyes:

ThirdEye
08-03-2009, 05:13 PM
What has the dev team been doing this past year?
What has the Maya Programming Team been doing since Version 2009 ?

Dunno, i could be wrong, but maybe they're stuffing existing stuff into Softimage and Maya because they're working on a new app ready to replace them all. Just an idea...

GatorNic
08-03-2009, 05:14 PM
That is learly toxik and matchmover that they are showing.

looks like they just leveraged existing IP in this app. Still I think it is a phenomenal move. Maya Unlimited, Matchmover, Toxik and 5 mental ray satellites for 3500.... amazing.

Well yeah, I definitely can't debate the price/value now. But still, a couple added new features fixes would have been nice.

Ben-Davis
08-03-2009, 05:14 PM
I find it hard to believe this is Maya 2010, how can it be with no obvious additions, no new modeling features nor animation features. In the features list, they seem to be listing things they already exist in Maya. If this is all there really is, then all they've seemed to have done is merge three apps and lower the price (which is great, don't get me wrong).

I was surprised to see an announcement prior to Siggraph, so hopefully all the new features will be announced then... I hope.

Dunno, i could be wrong, but maybe they're stuffing existing stuff into Softimage and Maya because they're working on a new app ready to replace them all. Just an idea...
You could be right. In both Maya and Softimage they seemed to have merged other existing apps with them, and at the same time adding nothing that stands out. Perhaps all Autodesk's innovation is being withheld for a new groundbreaking app to be announced at Siggraph :)

Aneks
08-03-2009, 05:14 PM
That is learly toxik and matchmover that they are showing.

looks like they just leveraged existing IP in this app. Still I think it is a phenomenal move. Maya Unlimited, Matchmover, Toxik and 5 mental ray satellites for 3500.... amazing.

dagon1978
08-03-2009, 05:15 PM
That is learly toxik and matchmover that they are showing.

looks like they just leveraged existing IP in this app. Still I think it is a phenomenal move. Maya Unlimited, Matchmover, Toxik and 5 mental ray satellites for 3500.... amazing.

8 mr satellites (for distributed bucket rendering), 5 network (backburner) licences

mmm i hope they can show something more...

StefanA
08-03-2009, 05:19 PM
I don't get it... under 'what's new' I can see 4 things. Where 2 of those where other softwares that is now bundled with Maya. Maya Batch has resurfaced as a product... and "Advanced Simulation" was merely that complete now also has this...

Maya = Maya, Toxic, Matchmover, nucleus + 5 Maya Batch

Or did I miss something? What actual improvements has been done?

stefan

Bonedaddy
08-03-2009, 05:20 PM
It's an incremental upgrade, and not that bad of one. I think it's a good direction for Maya to move in, while they presumably work on a next-gen 3D package to supplant Maya/Max/XSI.

rock
08-03-2009, 05:22 PM
What's New in Maya 2010

Autodesk Maya 2010 offers artists an end-to-end creative workflow for less.


Advanced simulation tools—Access the innovative Maya Nucleus unified simulation framework and the first two fully integrated Nucleus simulation modules (Maya nCloth and Maya nParticles) as well as Maya Fluid Effects, Maya Hair, and Maya Fur.
High-performance compositor—Work interactively with visual media, regardless of bit-depth or image size, using the Maya Composite compositor.
Professional camera tracking—Extract accurate 3D camera and motion data from video and film sequences and then insert CG elements seamlessly into a scene using Autodesk® MatchMover™ software.
More rendering power—Use more networked computers to render your sequences faster. Maya 2010 includes 5 additional mental ray for Maya batch** rendering nodes and the Autodesk Backburner† network render queue manager.




Is this Advanced Simulation Tools new? I think it's meant for Maya Complete users. It looks like Maya is reaching its peak, too complicated and slow to change.

Aneks
08-03-2009, 05:26 PM
Is this Advanced Simulation Tools new? I think it's meant for Maya Complete users. It looks like Maya is reaching its peak, too complicated and slow to change.

it would seem that they are referring to the inclusion of the exiting nucleus tools in maya complete. I doubt very much that Maya has reached it's peak potential.

More like it is 11years old now and really they are due a new application. One of the ways to run it out is by bundling existing applicaitons that they cannot sell (toxik !)

Steve Green
08-03-2009, 05:33 PM
Ah, it's at this point that I get pissed off again with Autodesk shifting the release of Max 6 months.

- Steve

TAVO
08-03-2009, 05:33 PM
i thought at least we can see a dark scheme UI finally, oh well.

let´s wait for a full new features list.

i´m excited about the price drop and the new added apps though :D

DuttyFoot
08-03-2009, 05:55 PM
Maya = Maya, Toxic, Matchmover, nucleus + 5 Maya Batch


so i guess they did add toxik, interesting

Grgeon
08-03-2009, 05:57 PM
How is toxik as a full on compositing app? Do compositors like it? or steep learning curve? How does it compare to Nuke? Seems most of the major apps have compositors in them now, but not really used for heavy compositing work... more for rough comps right? I like the matchmover addition.

-George

Aneks
08-03-2009, 06:03 PM
toxik is very full featured application. Touted as the 'big new thing'. it was very badly received by the compositing community. Depsite have autodesk/discreet behing it and 10 years very few people chose to invest their time and effort into it. despite all that it is a serious compositing app with some great technology in it !

I only used it very early on and it was flawed but I have been told that recent builds are much better. It should more than do for most of the tasks people are going to throw at it. the main thing is that many companies like to have a unified solution so that they can share work between their 3d and compisiting dpt. but I think you will have a hard time finding full-time compositors who use Toxik.

hanskloss
08-03-2009, 06:22 PM
I knew it wasn't going to be anything mind blowing. Just another "take and and shut up" release. It's becoming really frustrating.

Ptichat
08-03-2009, 06:24 PM
i thought at least we can see a dark scheme UI finally, oh well.

let´s wait for a full new features list.

i´m excited about the price drop and the new added apps though :D

From the ADsk website I can just see the old grey color...

TAVO
08-03-2009, 06:27 PM
From the ADsk website I can just see the old grey color...

yeap, that´s why i said i thought in this realease we will see a dark UI, but i guess not.

lazzhar
08-03-2009, 06:36 PM
I'm curious to find out how much integrated are Toxik and Matchmover into Maya?!
It would be great if you can build texture networks and effects in the built in compositor then feed Maya materials with results without rendering. Or a new hypershade? just thinking out loud lol.
Also, matchmoving withing Maya using its nodes without the need to fire up another program would be cool.
I only hope those additions are not separate programs/modules that can hardly speak to each other.

DuttyFoot
08-03-2009, 06:47 PM
found this on the area site. what do you think about the two new suites for max and maya

Here it is, the moment many of you have been waiting for: Maya and MotionBuilder 2010 details are now available!

Why am I mentioning MotionBuilder? Well, I've picked up some extra responsibility and am now looking after MotionBuilder. :)

Maya 2010

There's some big news with Maya 2010, at a high level, it is:




One Maya: We're simplifying how we make Maya available by offering just Maya. Now everyone gets all the features of what was Maya Unlimited. Yes, it does have new pricing to make it more attractive to everyone.
Maya Composite: Maya now ships with compositing.
MatchMover: We've also added MatchMover to provide more advanced camera tracking functionality.
Backburner: Backburner is in the box for those of you interested in a render manager.
More mental ray: If you purchase a floating license of Maya, you get five mental ray for Maya batch nodes
I'm very excited with what we're offering with Maya 2010, as it provides a lot of extra functionality in the box to round out your production pipeline. More details are available (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=13583239#channels_What%27s%20New).

MotionBuilder 2010

MotionBuilder 2010 offers:



Finger controls for Actor
SDK access to Actor
Custom Keying Groups
Pose Controls for Objects
Enhanced support for 3ds Max Biped and Softimage Character templates
Performance Updates
More options for Joints in Physics simulations
This is a strong release for MotionBuilder and you can see the full MotionBuilder 2010 details (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=13581857#channels_What%27s%20New).

Product Suites


With the 2010 release of products, we're also offering two product suites that may interest you:



Autodesk Real-Time Animation Suite 2010 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=13441435) is a combo of Maya and MotionBuilder (there's also a 3ds Max and MotionBuilder flavor)
Autodesk Entertainment Creation Suite 2010 (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=13420613) is a combo of Maya, MotionBuilder and Mudbox (again, there's also a 3ds Max flavor)
What's the big draw with a product suite? You can save money when buying multiple products.

Steve Green
08-03-2009, 07:06 PM
From a Max POV, I think it's resembling a mish mash of different tech absorbed from different areas.

Character Studio, CAT, built-in bone system, motionbuilder based on that. I'm all for choice, but it must be a bit bewildering for new users.

SheepFactory
08-03-2009, 07:08 PM
I am quite happy with the added value to the package + the price drop.

Rounin
08-03-2009, 07:33 PM
Maya comes with compositing now. Reminds me of a certain software with a compositor built in ( not as robust ). Softimage with more stuff into it aswell. What's next, adobe integrates flash into illustrator which it intergrates into photoshop which it integrates to aftereffects which will be called the Adobe 2D Bloated software.


Well at least it'll be good the for the user. More for less, but I'm sure support will be worst for those software that were intergrated into the 3D package. Just hope these softwares doesn't get too bloated where stability becomes a major issue.

Aneks
08-03-2009, 07:38 PM
i wonder how many people here rember a time when Maya came bundled with a compositor called composer on Irix and fusion on Windows? !

everything old is new again !

sacslacker
08-03-2009, 07:43 PM
Well as a guy on maintenance with Maya and Softimage I'm quite pleased with Autodesk at this time. Having access to face robot, more mental ray nodes, ICE export to Maya, Toxic and matchmover. Yeah, this year I'm getting my money's worth.

It's only fair to say that I'm extremely pleased with Autodesk now. I've had hard time with them in the past but today, I feel they are listening.

joie
08-03-2009, 07:43 PM
Ahaaaaa!, I remember that and remember asking myself why the hell the removed composer from Alias PA..., it was kinda cool to have access to it :)

SheepFactory
08-03-2009, 07:44 PM
Maya comes with compositing now. Reminds me of a certain software with a compositor built in ( not as robust ). Softimage with more stuff into it aswell. What's next, adobe integrates flash into illustrator which it intergrates into photoshop which it integrates to aftereffects which will be called the Adobe 2D Bloated software.


Well at least it'll be good the for the user. More for less, but I'm sure support will be worst for those software that were intergrated into the 3D package. Just hope these softwares doesn't get too bloated where stability becomes a major issue.


Toxic and Matchmover are not integrated in maya, they are still running as seperate apps.

smallpixel
08-03-2009, 07:51 PM
All people was expecting for pyQt to be integrated into the maya core ,any one know whats happening
where is the new interface for maya?.

cheebamonkey
08-03-2009, 07:52 PM
I knew it wasn't going to be anything mind blowing. Just another "take and and shut up" release. It's becoming really frustrating.


Well that's been you stance with Autodesk since you "left" the company, no? I mean that seems to be your take on everything Autodesk in every thread you post to. Stale.


I concur with sacslacker... people on maintenance are getting something good.

deepcgi
08-03-2009, 07:58 PM
Let's see. I already have unlimited 2009, after effects and syntheyes camera tracking. No reason to upgrade at all. Oh, except the extra render nodes

hanskloss
08-03-2009, 08:02 PM
Well that's been you stance with Autodesk since you "left" the company, no? I mean that seems to be your take on everything Autodesk in every thread you post to. Stale.


Yeap, pretty much, although I was highly critical when I was there too. I love what is being done with Mudbox so no, I don't bash everything Autodesk. I'm very critical of how things are developed and when I do criticize I try to back up my opinions. For what I do day in and day out Maya 2010 doesn't offer anything new, so that is my stance. Anything wrong with that?

deepcgi
08-03-2009, 08:16 PM
Tthis is exactly what i predicted the day Autodesk bought Maya. Eliminate Complete, announce that Unlimited is now more affordable than ever and turn Maya into the preferred system for Film and Video. The flip side is that the cost of entry just got more expensive and they are no longer encouraging Maya for use by the Video Game Development Community.

Just as I knew they would...Maya is to be developed primarily for Film from now on. Max is for Games. Regardless of what the users want.

punchatz
08-03-2009, 08:22 PM
they are no longer encouraging Maya for use by the Video Game Development Community.

Just as I knew they would...Maya is to be developed primarily for Film from now on. Max is for Games. Regardless of what the users want.

Funny thing is over on the Softimage list a lot of people are thinking that AD is pushing Softimage to games...Maya for film and Max for arch vis.

imashination
08-03-2009, 08:28 PM
*Devils advocate*

Im sure we havent seen the full feature list, but isnt this essentially just forcing you to buy software you probably didnt want, under the guise of adding them to the product your have to keep buying for fear of falling off the upgrade cycle?

Apoclypse
08-03-2009, 08:45 PM
That's a nice way for Autodesk to get their comp system a foot in the door. Toxik is sure to take off now. Personally I would love to see them do something with eh FX tree in Softimage but actually adding features doesn't seem to be where Autodesk's head is at right now.

I've never used Toxik but this sounds a like a great deal to me, any indie house on a budget could not go wrong with that package. Now that Apple discontinued Shake, Nuke is going to need some competition and the price is just about right for what you get even it comes with a 3d package you don't want. ;)

Strang
08-03-2009, 08:45 PM
ICE effects can be exported to Autodesk® Maya® software, enabling greater flexibility in the creation of complex simulations.

@sacslacker also...

this has been available since ICE came out, there was a programming example and plugin that shipped with Softimage that exported to PDC.

this isn't new unless Maya supports the .icecache format or ICE exports to nParticles format (nCache?)

so if it interests you, connect to the SDK workgroup and choose 'write geometry cache' with 'custom' option chosen and the file extension with a '.pdc' at the end

steven

DagMX
08-03-2009, 08:46 PM
Funny thing is over on the Softimage list a lot of people are thinking that AD is pushing Softimage to games...Maya for film and Max for arch vis.

I would actually agree with that.

Max is deffinitely being pushed for arch and viz with the new integration of Mental Mill and Design package.

Softimage is games orientated with integrated facerobot.

Maya is deffinitely for film with the matchmoving and compositing 'tools' added.

Though of course it's all interchangeable.




I had a quick question though if anyone can answer it. is Maya 2010 on OS X going to be 64 bit? If I'm not mistaken, all Maya releases on OS X intel were 32 bit?

fahr
08-03-2009, 09:05 PM
I had a quick question though if anyone can answer it. is Maya 2010 on OS X going to be 64 bit? If I'm not mistaken, all Maya releases on OS X intel were 32 bit?

<Sigh> Don't even get me started. :P

Not only is it NOT 64-bit, but I highly doubt that anyone at Autodesk has even bothered to fix the tons of interface glitches infesting it. I keep hoping that it's because they are putting their energies into a QT port of the UI, which would presumably clean up all these things in addition to getting us 64-bit. But as usual, no one is talking so I guess it's yet another year of hoping. :P

liquidik
08-03-2009, 09:05 PM
Unfortunately I think that's all we're going to see.

Everyone is talking about integration of QT in Maya, and some screenshots have been posted to the web. While this is probably an expected development, I'm pretty sure that going from the actual interface to a completely new one is no easy task, especially considering how big is maya not only as a software, but also as an API.

We'll probably see a new version in 6 months with the new interface. The development cycle is too short to have a release every year for an application big as Maya, but yet they got subscription and they need to pull out a product. So they just repackage what they have. Nice trick!

Have fun with AD guys

.Gian

DagMX
08-03-2009, 09:11 PM
<Sigh> Don't even get me started. :P

Not only is it NOT 64-bit, but I highly doubt that anyone at Autodesk has even bothered to fix the tons of interface glitches infesting it. I keep hoping that it's because they are putting their energies into a QT port of the UI, which would presumably clean up all these things in addition to getting us 64-bit. But as usual, no one is talking so I guess it's yet another year of hoping. :P

That's a shame.
Indeed a QT port would be a much needed change. I suspect Maya 2011 (oh so far away) will be a rewrite to fully support Snow Leopard.

It's such a pain in the ass though with all the UI breaks that Maya has in 2009. Hopefully they managed to fix it in 2010 and just haven't mentioned it yet. Also when programs from smaller companies like SideFX and Maxon have gone 64bit on OS X, it's really hard to rationalize Autodesk's lack of progress on the matter.

jude3d
08-03-2009, 09:24 PM
they are really funny at autodesk sometimes. Be patient. ;)

TopherMartini
08-03-2009, 09:28 PM
Am really interested to see what the upgrade pricing from Maya Unlimited 2008 to Maya 2010 will be. The Autodesk store hasn't been updated yet and put a call into a local reseller that didn't have the information immediately available.

The one bit of good news from the reseller is that subscription is available with and without support, which was never an option for Maya Unlimited customers.

The one bit of bad news is that the USB dongle is apparently no longer supported, but the at-home license is now standard (since Maya 2009 iirc) so you can use a single license on a desktop and laptop.

This update makes for some interesting product offerings in tough economic times, I hope they adjust the upgrade pricing accordingly :thumbsup:

republicavfx
08-03-2009, 09:31 PM
ICE effects can be exported to Autodesk® Maya® software, enabling greater flexibility in the creation of complex simulations.

yeah i wasn't really excited about that. i'd rather have seen some Ndevelopments. I don't really like the idea of working in softimage to get maya simulations.

jupiterjazz
08-03-2009, 09:37 PM
Waited a bit to send this mail.


A couple of things to reflect on:

* Bundling Toxic. when Alias started giving composer for free with Maya seats it was clear that the development on composer was done&gone. Meaning composer was dead. I expect the same with Toxic, which despite the collaborative paradigm, IMO, cannot even compete with a rock solid and modern application like Nuke. Nuke is the way to go, compositors know it. Dot. For me Toxic will follow the path of Composer and discontinue soon. Also it will STEAL resources from Maya development, which already lacks...
Besides, Toxic is not integrated *within* Maya: it's a separate standalone application. The (UGLY) pass system that was developed for 2009 slows down up to 10 times in producing multiple passes. ADSK would fix that rather than putting a comp aside. Ok, that is fault of mental delayTM but still...
I also find very stupid that they don't even mention Toxic, but then they put a screenshot with a visible Toxic label... No courage. And marketing is losing points...
Finally, if ADSK would speand 10 minutes they could have a look at how a compositor should be builtin an application: look at XSI. And If they want something more complete, spend 30 minutes and look into Houdini.

* I personally find lame if not pathetic that ADSK is selling Nucleus 2009 toolset as a new feature. People are not stupid, and they should not be treated like that. It is also lame to implicitly suggest to people to buy a seat of XSI to export sims to Maya (most probably sharing cache). Maybe in 2011 again no new features and just bundle XSI with Maya?

* Matchmover from acquisition. I haven't tried it yet within Maya but there's something scary and old style about the screenshot I have seen...

* 5 more mental delayTM licenses for Maya batch = 5 x more problems!
Anyhow the lack of new features makes me think that adsk starts understanding that mental ray is not the jewel they thought it was. Big ups here. Maybe product managers should start notice the return of renderman? hint hint. Splash. wake up!

* one version & price reduction. This is the only good thing, but not because of the price! Who needs Maya is willing to pay no matter what if the product carries *innovation* (and it currently doesn't add innovation since 2009's nDynamics). But one price, one product is simple. And simple is good.
Price. Price reduction means also that ADSK is AWARE that the value of Maya is now *lower*. They ported all the goodies to 3dsmin (sorry for me that sw is still a bunch of plugins without style). Now, we will see what will happen with 3 packages priced almost the same... Scary.

* the feature that all where speaking about and that would apparently refresh the product: Qt interface. With screenshot on the rusky web. I bet ADSK simply could not stick with the schedule, and it will come with the next release. Interface is important for sure, but there are major core things in Maya to be fixed which XSI already can do in Gigacore multithreaded architecture. Focus on architecture, not on UI! Damn.

* Backburner from 3dsmax.
Ok, in 2009 they add a queuing system which is inferior to several OpenSource alternatives. Bah.

For me this is a version for small CG shops, not for high end.

I still like Maya and use it more than regularly, but in the last 2 years I spent more and more time doing things with other tools: XSI, Houdini, RenderMan, Vray & Nuke.


P.

Ptichat
08-03-2009, 09:38 PM
they are really funny at autodesk sometimes. Be patient. ;)
Hey you speack too much or not enough mister JackSparrow ;)

MrPositive
08-03-2009, 10:33 PM
I've been reading these new Maya upgrade threads for 5 years now and every single time people are upset. I'm starting to think it is the people and not Autodesk/Alias. Are people hoping the next update has a 'make Yoda' button? I mean seriously here, price drop and 3 softwares in 1 (and I'm sure Mudbox and Maya will be more integrated...salivates), supposedly from the AREA....much faster rendering (who can't use that), and multiple nodes for Mental Ray, and that's not moving forward? And nobody has even walked onto the Siggraph exhibition floor yet and heard the demos.....the sky hasn't fallen yet.

sentry66
08-03-2009, 10:36 PM
looks like they added some nice stuff to maya 2010, but none of it is anything I'll ever need or use.

Maya Complete has served me just fine and I was completely fine with paying $2000 for it, but $3500 to get stuff I don't need? I'll pass

I already have After Effects and am pretty sure it still has a strong future. That's great to have an included compositor, but why the price increase for people like me who'll never use it?


If they're going to go to any trouble to put out a press release, they really need to give us a clearer idea of just what it is the software does that's so much better. It's pretty lame that we get a few misc bullet points and that's all. I guess we'll find out in 2-3 months when they finally release the complete list of what's new...

vfx
08-03-2009, 10:38 PM
How is adding a compositor to a 3d app a good move to attract film companies given most places already have their own setup? Why bundle old software and not just have a core, small team (i'm thinking recession here) of hard workers improving/re-writing the tool to match what artists are asking for.

That said the mudbox updates are great! :)

st3dcenter
08-03-2009, 10:46 PM
For me it's kind of software sell.They called it Maya 2010!!

Cheesestraws
08-03-2009, 10:47 PM
I guess we'll find out in 2-3 months when they finally release the complete list of what's new...

At most you will have to wait a week for it to be available to people under subscription.

Hamburger
08-03-2009, 11:10 PM
Can anyone tell me what are the actual updates to Maya are? I can't believe it's taken an entire year just to rename 2009 Unlimited to "Maya 2010".

I guess we'll wait for the detailed features to emerge.

DizzyJ
08-03-2009, 11:18 PM
I've been reading these new Maya upgrade threads for 5 years now and every single time people are upset. I'm starting to think it is the people and not Autodesk/Alias.

QTF. I also use Modo and remember how excited the Modo community was at the start of the 401 roll-out. Almost every new feature could be done in in other packages, but they were thrilled to get new toys. The way the Maya community reacts, I bet if instead of Toxic, Autodesk had included Mudbox, you'd still get a lot of people saying, "I use Zbrush. This is so lame." :D

I do, however, feel bad for the people who never use any of the Unlimited features and now find themselves potentially paying 60% more than before for Maya.

sacslacker
08-03-2009, 11:21 PM
@sacslacker also...

this has been available since ICE came out, there was a programming example and plugin that shipped with Softimage that exported to PDC.

this isn't new unless Maya supports the .icecache format or ICE exports to nParticles format (nCache?)

so if it interests you, connect to the SDK workgroup and choose 'write geometry cache' with 'custom' option chosen and the file extension with a '.pdc' at the end

steven

I didn't know this. Thanks! Actually I do hope that we can get either an icecache format or ncache format export but I'll take a look at the PDC example until I get 2010 installed.

XeonG
08-03-2009, 11:42 PM
"I've been reading these new Maya upgrade threads for 5 years now and every single time people are upset. I'm starting to think it is the people and not Autodesk/Alias."

yeah right!.. I've been reading these Maya wishlist threads for 5 years now and every single time I wonder.. why are people not happy!.. oh lol

Well I don't see any detailed list of real improvements to Maya 2010.. so for now seems more like a product pricing placement change than anything else.

ThE_JacO
08-03-2009, 11:50 PM
All people was expecting for pyQt to be integrated into the maya core ,any one know whats happening
where is the new interface for maya?.
Careful saying something like that! Apparently it's a super super secret (doesn't matter that their sales reps have been promising it "soon" for two years and spare change).

If you write it in forums some frustrated AD script monkeys will take it personally and have angry emails sent to your employer by some random AD reseller about some NDAs or something, regardless of whether you signed any or not :)

As for the update including toxic... I guess somebody's trying the back door way to take away some momentum from Nuke's ascent as Shake replacement. Can't see no other reason for it since the unlimited to complete feature porting would have been enough to justify the price change.
And I mean price change literally, because it sure isn't a price drop if you're the kind of company with 200 complete seats and only a handful of unlimited, or just kept a seat of maya around to compile and release plugins.

Strang
08-04-2009, 12:32 AM
I didn't know this. Thanks! Actually I do hope that we can get either an icecache format or ncache format export but I'll take a look at the PDC example until I get 2010 installed.

if the file format description is available, anyone could write an export even for ICE. its actually very easy, i have free python example online for a bin exporter. also if its something that you cannot do but want, PM me.

cheebamonkey
08-04-2009, 12:43 AM
And I mean price change literally, because it sure isn't a price drop if you're the kind of company with 200 complete seats and only a handful of unlimited, or just kept a seat of maya around to compile and release plugins.

it is a price drop if you have 200 complete seats on maintenance. Those complete seats get "upgraded" with what would've been called "Unlimited" features. Anyone on maintenance, regardless if it's Complete or Unlimited will get 2010 next week. I would never imagine a company actually having 200 complete seats that wouldn't have maintenance as they would be labeled complete tools for not getting maintenance for that many licenses.

Szos
08-04-2009, 01:21 AM
Will AutoDesk please hurry-up and just merge the 3 apps already and call it a day? Every one of these programs is going to get short-shifted in one way or another till a "unified" application comes out that merges the development of all 3 packages.

inguatu
08-04-2009, 01:30 AM
* Matchmover from acquisition. I haven't tried it yet within Maya but there's something scary and old style about the screenshot I have seen...



How does a screenshot look scary? Old style? The one shown looks 3Deq or pftrackish. Besides, a ss of a UI doesn't tell the whole story. Just look at Syntheyes.



* 5 more mental delayTM licenses for Maya batch = 5 x more problems!
Anyhow the lack of new features makes me think that adsk starts understanding that mental ray is not the jewel they thought it was. Big ups here. Maybe product managers should start notice the return of renderman? hint hint. Splash. wake up!



Awww I don't know if it's cute, sad, or unprofessional that after all these years you still demand to call it "mental delay". We get the joke.. har har? You of all people should know Renderman will never be bundled with an app. The return of renderman? As far as most people are concerned, it never went anywhere?


* one version & price reduction. This is the only good thing, but not because of the price! Who needs Maya is willing to pay no matter what if the product carries *innovation* (and it currently doesn't add innovation since 2009's nDynamics). But one price, one product is simple. And simple is good.
Price. Price reduction means also that ADSK is AWARE that the value of Maya is now *lower*. They ported all the goodies to 3dsmin (sorry for me that sw is still a bunch of plugins without style). Now, we will see what will happen with 3 packages priced almost the same... Scary.


Ok so are you in favor of the price reduction regardless of your attempt at Autodesk's reasoning? Who cares! It's lowered and Maya users will be happy about it. Awwww cute another attempt at stirring up crap in the Max community with the "3DSMin" comment. *yawn* Oh wait, I know the answer to my question above. It's unprofessional.




* the feature that all where speaking about and that would apparently refresh the product: Qt interface. With screenshot on the rusky web. I bet ADSK simply could not stick with the schedule, and it will come with the next release. Interface is important for sure, but there are major core things in Maya to be fixed which XSI already can do in Gigacore multithreaded architecture. Focus on architecture, not on UI! Damn.



You do realize there is more than a couple people working on software development of this size. You do realize a team can work on architecture while another group focuses on UI? Seems trivial really.



* Backburner from 3dsmax.
Ok, in 2009 they add a queuing system which is inferior to several OpenSource alternatives. Bah.

For me this is a version for small CG shops, not for high end.

I still like Maya and use it more than regularly, but in the last 2 years I spent more and more time doing things with other tools: XSI, Houdini, RenderMan, Vray & Nuke.


P.


You said it yourself, it's not for every shop, and that's a plus. Many shops you may never hear of can use some of these features that you are too snooty to even touch, or simply don't need. Companies don't develop software around one self-centered individual. They look at their consumers as a whole, from the big shops to the freelancers. I won't need backburner, but it's kind of nice they finally included it for people who need something like that. The small amount of features they posted so far for Maya 2010 won't register with an elitist such as yourself, but think of the rest of the community who may enjoy these. There still isn't a difinitive list of new features for Maya.

ThirdEye
08-04-2009, 01:34 AM
Will AutoDesk please hurry-up and just merge the 3 apps already and call it a day? Every one of these programs is going to get short-shifted in one way or another till a "unified" application comes out that merges the development of all 3 packages.

As if unifying three 10 years old apps was easy...

Kabab
08-04-2009, 01:36 AM
Will AutoDesk please hurry-up and just merge the 3 apps already and call it a day? Every one of these programs is going to get short-shifted in one way or another till a "unified" application comes out that merges the development of all 3 packages.
Will people stop saying this it is not going to happen get over it build a bridge...

People need to come to terms and understand its going to be like 10 years before a use-able "next gen" product is available.

ThE_JacO
08-04-2009, 01:40 AM
it is a price drop if you have 200 complete seats on maintenance. Those complete seats get "upgraded" with what would've been called "Unlimited" features. Anyone on maintenance, regardless if it's Complete or Unlimited will get 2010 next week. I would never imagine a company actually having 200 complete seats that wouldn't have maintenance as they would be labeled complete tools for not getting maintenance for that many licenses.
It's not when you need absolutely NONE of the features that were merged in.
Animators, Modelers and a large part of lighting doesn't need anything at all from Unlimited, and when you run your own propietary system for dynamics it actually makes unlimited an absolutely and completely useless package except for the 10 or so people who need it to bake nCloth sims.

I know you'll go to any length rather than seeing any decision taken about maya argued, but sorry, the feature merge does NOT represent a price drop for a not small part of the userbase who really didn't need a iota more than you had in complete.
It's a merge, not a price drop by any stretch of imagination, and people should stop calling it that.
It's a way as any other to potentially enforce a higher maintenance price on everybody rather than just on unlimite seats, and if you need to add a seat you now have to spend almost twice as much as before.

The4thAggie
08-04-2009, 01:47 AM
I was going to get mad at the fact that I bought the Maya 2009 Unlimited Education Super-pack (Maya, Mudbox, MotionBuilder, Toxik, and Backburner) mid-July and now 2010 came out. I guess I am safe for another year. Sorry to get you off the elitist topic.

solaris6
08-04-2009, 01:53 AM
Anybode know what does it mean this release, absolutely no new features... i m frustrated.
Sorry for my english.

dagon1978
08-04-2009, 02:10 AM
Awww I don't know if it's cute, sad, or unprofessional that after all these years you still demand to call it "mental delay". We get the joke.. har har? You of all people should know Renderman will never be bundled with an app. The return of renderman? As far as most people are concerned, it never went anywhere?


let it talk, the more he write the more i think he's only good to talk about things that he doesn't know (really professional)
the funny thing is: actually the integration is all outside mental images, the pass system is all "autodeskaliasmaya" work, there is nothing from mental images in that :)
but he don't know it as he's not in mental anymore

bsm3d
08-04-2009, 02:12 AM
"I use Zbrush. This is so lame." :D

I use 3D-Coat :-)

So seriously it's funny to see max splited into 2 applications and 2 maya version merged into a single one :-)

Autodesk must give features for subscriptions users...

spurcell
08-04-2009, 02:24 AM
Wow, they're throwing in that absolutely crappy render queue software 'backburner' to Maya? That thing hasn't been truly updated in probably going on a decade.

cresshead
08-04-2009, 02:40 AM
Wow, they're throwing in that absolutely crappy render queue software 'backburner' to Maya? That thing hasn't been truly updated in probably going on a decade.

incorrect-a-mundo
2 points away for the man with the silly hat in the corner.

next please?

ThE_JacO
08-04-2009, 02:41 AM
let it talk, the more he write the more i think he's only good to talk about things that he doesn't know (really professional)
the funny thing is: actually the integration is all outside mental images, the pass system is all "autodeskaliasmaya" work, there is nothing from mental images in that :)
but he don't know it as he's not in mental anymore
You do realize that the person you are accusing of not knowing anything about this has been, for quite a few years, one of the most prominent and competent figures in the MRay scene, and has worked for Mental Images as a developer for quite a while before giving up on it an finding better and bigger in other engines, do you?

If there is somebody who knows what he's talking about in these regards, it would definitely be the person you accuse of not knowing :)

As for the nickname, yes, it might be a bit childish (and I might know who Paolo picked that nickname from ;) ), but it doesn't make his opinion any less valid, or take away from the fact that MRay has been an outdated and constrictive choice for Maya and XSI both for quite some time now, and most clued users who used something else have been begging for a different option, or at least the option to buy the softwares without MRay bundled even if it just meant a couple hundred bucks less per seat.

Spend some quality time working with a different and better engine on actual production shots and then we can discuss this again.

I'm surprised the userbase will still stand up to defend this partnership when it's costed so many people their mental sanity several times over. The only explanation I can give myself about it is that the people who can't see the reason behind the nickname either don't know much about rendering, or never tried anything else. Or both.

techmage
08-04-2009, 04:11 AM
What I really want to see is cgtalk (or other) doing an interview with autodesk about future directions of maya development.

This update is pretty pitiful.

If atleast mental ray works more smoothly, I'll be happy.

Kabab
08-04-2009, 04:17 AM
What I really want to see is cgtalk (or other) doing an interview with autodesk about future directions of maya development.

This update is pretty pitiful.

If atleast mental ray works more smoothly, I'll be happy.
Who knows could be kick ass we really no nothing...

They should save their marketing $$$$ and just post the what's new that is in the documentation... This is just a waste of time.

techmage
08-04-2009, 04:23 AM
http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/maya_2010_product_brochure_us.pdf

someone over in the softimage 2010 thread said this:
"Not true at all...this is NOT like 7.5...this is a real solid release, the performance gains alone would make it very strong release. I feel like I am stuck in the mud when I have to use pre 2010 versions. Thats not just marketing hype.

That and there was a LONG beta that squashed many bugs that we have all wanted fixed... "


maybe something similiar is true for maya?

rock
08-04-2009, 04:27 AM
For me, Maya 2010, Xsi 2010, and Mudbox 2010 releases are so uninspiring. Releases like ZBrush 4.0, Modo, and even Blender is inspiring that it sends chills down my spine.

DizzyJ
08-04-2009, 04:31 AM
For me, Maya 2010, Xsi 2010, and Mudbox 2010 releases are so uninspiring. Releases like ZBrush 4.0, Modo, and even Blender is inspiring that it sends chills down my spine.

To me, once I thought about it, Modo 401 was a yawner. I kept thinking, "I can already do that in Maya." Now that I've used it, some of the new features are really helpful (especially when your client only has Modo), but some of the long-standing weaknesses (no history at all and the annoying stacked shader implementation) remain and continue to be troublesome.

The problem with feature lists with software as mature as Maya is that the value of an upgrade is rarely going to be on the list. The number one question for me is going to be stability and speed.

Lone Deranger
08-04-2009, 04:56 AM
I doubt we'd be learning anything of interest beyond the usual marketing BS. A scant two pages worth of drivel interspersed with keywords like: innovation, customer relations, integration, etc. :)

I'd rather see CGSociety organize an interview with a truely innovative developer like Pixologic.

What I really want to see is cgtalk (or other) doing an interview with
autodesk about future directions of maya development.

This update is pretty pitiful.

If atleast mental ray works more smoothly, I'll be happy.

PiotrekM
08-04-2009, 05:12 AM
so they finally found a way to sell Toxic :P

cresshead
08-04-2009, 06:49 AM
i wonder if those who bought Toxic and are on subs get a free copy of maya 2010?

lazzhar
08-04-2009, 07:28 AM
so they finally found a way to sell Toxic :P

Yeah, by offering it for free.
But Paolo(juppiterjazz) mentioned something interesting about it. If it's given away for free then this might be a sign the develepement has stopped. Unless they have something really unique in terms of integration, I really doubt people would consider using it.
If you ADSK people are done with toxik then please get back to combustion we're still waiting lol

MasonDoran
08-04-2009, 08:14 AM
None of this makes much sense to me, all of the "new" features were already in Unlimited.

So by eliminating "complete" they try to pass these off as a new features? The only real differance between complete and unlimited was a the liscensce you bought, the software was identical.

Normally Maya was fairly well rounded with making updates in all aspects of the package, so its kinda weird to see it with no new features and only vaguely hint atsome kind of integration with Toxik/Matchmover.

Kabab
08-04-2009, 08:37 AM
Yeah, by offering it for free.
But Paolo(juppiterjazz) mentioned something interesting about it. If it's given away for free then this might be a sign the develepement has stopped. Unless they have something really unique in terms of integration, I really doubt people would consider using it.
If you ADSK people are done with toxik then please get back to combustion we're still waiting lol
To be honest this will just screw any other compositing app out of the market eventually... I seriously doubt they would bundle in software that they are discontinuing development... The level of integration they will be able to achieve won't leave to much room for other players.

Every company who has Maya now has a compositing app now possible dozens / hundreds of licenses... Try justifying to management now purchasing another composting app especially in this climate.

dnashj33
08-04-2009, 09:09 AM
So wait, they basically sandwiched two of their other packages into Maya and they call that development? Lame.There are other minor features, it looks like, but how in the hell do you consider rolling a $3500 compositor (which rivals Nuke), and MatchMover into the program lame? Go Figure...

That attitude...is what's lame.

ThE_JacO
08-04-2009, 09:12 AM
To be honest this will just screw any other compositing app out of the market eventually... I seriously doubt they would bundle in software that they are discontinuing development... The level of integration they will be able to achieve won't leave to much room for other players.

Every company who has Maya now has a compositing app now possible dozens / hundreds of licenses... Try justifying to management now purchasing another composting app especially in this climate.
I'm afraid integration doesn't mean much for compositing, which means there's plenty room for other players that do the things that matter in compositing well... Like Nuke does you know :)

There are other minor features, it looks like, but how in the hell do you consider rolling a $3500 compositor (which rivals Nuke), and MatchMover into the program lame? Go Figure...

That attitude...is what's lame.
Some people bought Maya and want to pay 2 grands for it, which apparently was very sustainable.
An upgrade normally renews or expands on current features and introduces new ones.
How is throwing completely separate softwares into a forced and uppriced bundle an upgrade TO MAYA?
They could have just released a bundle to offer those changes no?

Jesse-Irvin
08-04-2009, 09:18 AM
To be honest this will just screw any other compositing app out of the market eventually... I seriously doubt they would bundle in software that they are discontinuing development... The level of integration they will be able to achieve won't leave to much room for other players.

Every company who has Maya now has a compositing app now possible dozens / hundreds of licenses... Try justifying to management now purchasing another composting app especially in this climate.


Well, keep in mind that any company that already has licences of maya will likely not have the 2010 version with toxik. So they would have to upgrade their software at a cost. If they already have other compositing software how likely is this? and looking at the features list (which of course may be incomplete but i'm really not holding my breath) theres little to no incentive to upgrade beyond the bundled software as maya itself seems to come with little to no improvements.

Steve Green
08-04-2009, 09:19 AM
I find the whole Toxik thing really odd, for the past couple of years combustion users (me included) have been frustrated at the lack of combustion development because focus has been on Toxik, and expecting combustion to be canned.

Funny how things turn out.

dnashj33
08-04-2009, 09:27 AM
Yeah, by offering it for free.
But Paolo(juppiterjazz) mentioned something interesting about it. If it's given away for free then this might be a sign the develepement has stopped. Unless they have something really unique in terms of integration, I really doubt people would consider using it.
If you ADSK people are done with toxik then please get back to combustion we're still waiting lolI think....and this is actually something I mentioned in Ken Pimentel's blog at the Area, some time ago...Autodesk is taking a page from Adobe's playbook by "bundling" some of these products together, either integrated or in a Suite.

Toxic has had tight integration with Maya for a while now, and I'm guessing they see it as an investment (even if they lose a sale of a Toxic license with a seat of Maya) as many houses will see the natural progression to their high-end systems like Flame and Inferno's, for more demanding compositing needs. This could put a big dent in Fusion and Nuke's future sales as Toxic is on the same level....yet outside of a Suite, I can't see Toxic ever gaining any ground on those two. And Autodesk isn't willing to put the same amount of development resources into their desktop compositors. Us Combustion users have discovered that all too well over the past 5 or so years.

They also may be positioning Flame's desktop (Flare, I think) to compete with Fusion and Nuke. Personally, I don't see how a Maya user can not like this. This is very big, and if they do the same thing with Max and Softimage...it could nearly kill Fusion and Nuke, or force them to drop their prices dramtically.

Kabab
08-04-2009, 09:45 AM
Its to early to judge this version there are no comprehensive feature lists or any idea on performance improvements or bug fixes.

Lets get some idea about that before we all cast our votes....

Personally at work we renewed our sub's just so we could get toxic as its going to be useful for some projects coming up.

dnashj33
08-04-2009, 09:48 AM
Some people bought Maya and want to pay 2 grands for it, which apparently was very sustainable.
An upgrade normally renews or expands on current features and introduces new ones.
How is throwing completely separate softwares into a forced and uppriced bundle an upgrade TO MAYA?
They could have just released a bundle to offer those changes no?For those who are on subscription fro Complete, I thought someone mentioned at the Area that they would get Maya 2010 free...meaning now might be a good time to buy into Complete + subscription.

Not sure how it will go with upgrades, but it seems like AD is actually offering quite a bit in this release, when you consider the new compositor and matchmover as new features...just like Max users got Polyboost and CAT in Max 2010

Topolino
08-04-2009, 10:07 AM
This was exactly the same last year: The press release was quite uninspiring and missed out on the juicy parts of Maya 2009. I for one was more pleased after seeing the full feature list and the presentation at the User Group meeting. So maybe it is better to hold the criticism until we know what we're criticizing?

dnashj33
08-04-2009, 10:36 AM
If there was any doubt before, it's certainly clear now....that Toxic is included in its complete form (I thought it might be a watered down version of Toxic) with Maya:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=5561949&siteID=123112

I think AD is leveraging it to put the squeeze on Nuke and Fusion...catching them on one end with Toxic (via all the seats of Maya), and then enticing Studios to upgrade to Flare (Desktop variant of Flame) for high-end compositing...on the other

lazzhar
08-04-2009, 10:59 AM
Development efforts for Autodesk® Toxik™ compositing software have been transferred to Autodesk® Maya® 3D modeling, animation, visual effects, and rendering software. Autodesk Toxik is no longer available for purchase as a standalone product.

And
Support resources will continue to be available until March 2010 to support Autodesk Toxik customers.

Many were saying that Toxik was DOA but now ADSK is killing it officialy?

Aneks
08-04-2009, 11:02 AM
so I guess it's pretty much lights out for Combustion too ?!

I think AD is leveraging it to put the squeeze on Nuke and Fusion...catching them on one end with Toxic (via all the seats of Maya), and then enticing Studios to upgrade to Flare (Desktop variant of Flame) for high-end compositing...on the other

no serious compositor will switch from Nuke or Fusion to Toxik. Hell even Shake users will be better of without it. Flare is a bizzare anamoly also seeing as you cant buy it unless you already have a flame, smoke or inferno.... tho this will probably change.

Seems like Autodesk is just getting the hell out of the desktop market.

Ben-Davis
08-04-2009, 11:07 AM
Maybe Autodesk has bought to much? Perhaps they just don't have the manpower to keep development innovative for so many different apps. So instead of major development they have just merged. I can't see many people (outside of subscription) upgrading to Maya 2010, sure it' good value, but is it worth it. At the present time all it seems ADSK are doing is selling Maya 2009 bundled with Toxic and Matchmover. But the majority of shops are going to have there own pipeline already set up and will have no need for Maya Composer, and it's the same for personal users. And on top of that the 'Autodesk Entertainment and Creation Suites 2010' and 'Autodesk Real-Time Animation Suites 2010' that everyone was speculating about turns out to be just another bundle.

It's the same with Softimage, they've bundled it with Facerobot and added Ice export, although there seems to have been speed increases which obviously is good.

It seems that Autodesk has just made everything more value for money, which is good, but when you're wanting upgrade Maya and you want to see feature improvements within Maya, it's going to be disappointing when you get some discontinued software bundled with it.

Perhaps this will change in the coming days when ADSK hopefully announces something new or gives us a detailed feature list.

spurcell
08-04-2009, 12:01 PM
incorrect-a-mundo
2 points away for the man with the silly hat in the corner.

next please?

huh? I've been using max for about 10 years now, and I swear backburner seems as buggy as it always has.

katisss
08-04-2009, 12:16 PM
huh? I've been using max for about 10 years now, and I swear backburner seems as buggy as it always has.

No way anyone would want to have backburner with Maya, not even for free...

Ptichat
08-04-2009, 12:24 PM
I really really wonder if Autodesk is aware how disapointed ( pissed off ) we are and if they care about...
For sure, some people inside have to be sane no ? And Marc Petit was such a genius when he was working for MotionBuilder apart of Autodesk...

I really don't understand...

Steve Green
08-04-2009, 12:24 PM
Is it just me or is the UK pricing getting worse?

I just had an e-mail from BlueGFX stating that Maya 2010 is going to be £3050 + VAT

US price is $3500 + sales tax,

so UK (and no doubt other non-US) users are getting done over to the tune of a grand?

Nice.

JayHoo
08-04-2009, 01:03 PM
I really really wonder if Autodesk is aware how disapointed ( pissed off ) we are and if they care about...
For sure, some people inside have to be sane no ? And Marc Petit was such a genius when he was working for MotionBuilder apart of Autodesk...

I really don't understand...

A real changelog would be nice. This would prevent some whinings (dont mean you, just the whole community :) ).

dagon1978
08-04-2009, 01:22 PM
You do realize that the person you are accusing of not knowing anything about this has been, for quite a few years, one of the most prominent and competent figures in the MRay scene, and has worked for Mental Images as a developer for quite a while before giving up on it an finding better and bigger in other engines, do you?

yes, it "has been", as you said
now the mray4maya integration is not in mental images anymore, do you know it or not?
because i prefer to talk about concrete things
he accused mental images for the render passes system when mental images have nothing to do with it, this is correct or not?
this is a fact :)



If there is somebody who knows what he's talking about in these regards, it would definitely be the person you accuse of not knowing :)

yes, in the past...



As for the nickname, yes, it might be a bit childish (and I might know who Paolo picked that nickname from ;) ), but it doesn't make his opinion any less valid, or take away from the fact that MRay has been an outdated and constrictive choice for Maya and XSI both for quite some time now, and most clued users who used something else have been begging for a different option, or at least the option to buy the softwares without MRay bundled even if it just meant a couple hundred bucks less per seat.

just try to convince the ADSK people, not to evangelize the world!



Spend some quality time working with a different and better engine on actual production shots and then we can discuss this again.
auff!
the old elitist "production work" is back
mental ray is not good in production? what that means?? there is a special meaning for production in english that i 'm not aware?
i' m working with it "in production" for archviz for 5 years now, and it do pretty well his job :rolleyes:



I'm surprised the userbase will still stand up to defend this partnership when it's costed so many people their mental sanity several times over. The only explanation I can give myself about it is that the people who can't see the reason behind the nickname either don't know much about rendering, or never tried anything else. Or both.

what renderer do you wanna talk? :)
do you know something about: vray, maxwell, turtle, fry render, fR, brazil?
then we can discuss about the pros and cons
or there is some "better engine" out there for archviz? :)

lazzhar
08-04-2009, 01:25 PM
what renderer do you wanna talk? :)
do you know something about: vray, maxwell, turtle, fry render, fR, brazil?
then we can discuss about the pros and cons
:)
I wouldn't want to argue with the jacko in any case http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon10.gif

Srek
08-04-2009, 01:30 PM
I wouldn't want to argue with the jacko in any case http://forums.cgsociety.org/images/icons/icon10.gif
Except maybe if my name were Alberto, but in any other case i gladly refrain from doing so ;)

Cheers
Björn

ThirdEye
08-04-2009, 01:43 PM
Except maybe if my name were Alberto, but in any other case i gladly refrain from doing so ;)

Cheers
Björn

LOL
_________________

techmage
08-04-2009, 01:49 PM
You know.

It is true that the features that I thought were really awesome in 2008 did not come out till the service pack. I mean, remember the muscle, enhancement to modeling UI and all that came in the service pack, not the initial release?

I do wish autodesk would just like, take a poll on where maya development is going. Be more open in what its plans are. I hate always having to feel suspicious of autodesk.

I was thinking though. If toxik is tightly integrated to maya now, that probably means the passes functionality is well worked out too.

dagon1978
08-04-2009, 01:53 PM
I was thinking though. If toxik is tightly integrated to maya now, that probably means the passes functionality is well worked out too.

this is not what i "heard", unfortunatly




It is true that the features that I thought were really awesome in 2008 did not come out till the service pack. I mean, remember the muscle, enhancement to modeling UI and all that came in the service pack, not the initial release?


it was 2008 extension1
anyone noted that there wasn't an extension for 2009?

StefanA
08-04-2009, 02:04 PM
this is not what i "heard", unfortunatly
it was 2008 extension1
anyone noted that there wasn't an extension for 2009?

Also don't forget that the 'maya muscle' is actually CometMuscle... so that one you could already own to Maya 7.0. So it wasn't really an 'awesome tool' that Autodesk made. Just wanted to point that out.

I'm looking forward to see what bug fixes there are though.

/stefan

jupiterjazz
08-04-2009, 02:14 PM
yes, it "has been", as you said
now the mray4maya integration is not in mental images anymore, do you know it or not?
because a prefer to talk about concrete things
he accused mental images for the render passes system when mental images have nothing to do about it, this is correct or not?
this is a fact :)


The only fact here is that you can't read (or you reading is influenced). This time in fact I was b!tching more to ADSK than to the poor mentals (yes, incredible). So I am sorry but it's still too early to play your role of paladin of justice for the mental institute.

Actually there was a more important fact: Maya (mr4maya) cannot render multiple passes without major slow downs.

So quote myself:


Besides, Toxic is not integrated *within* Maya: it's a separate standalone application. The (UGLY) pass system that was developed for 2009 slows down up to 10 times in producing multiple passes. ADSK would fix that rather than putting a comp aside. Ok, that is fault of mental delayTM but still...


Explanation:

ADSK, because I was speaking of them, subject subtended, developed a pass system that sucks spheres with 2009. And IMHO instead of putting a dead horse to handle comp and say that it is well integrated (see xsi or houdini for a real integrated compositor) they should work with mental (as if that is even remotely possible) to fix issues like "major slowdown when rendering multiple passes". Because, in case you don't know, a comp needs images to work with, and if images takes 10x times to generate comp needs to wait.

I am well aware the Maya pass system was *developed* by ADSK. You can find confirmations in several older post of mine. But mental has its role: developed the pass mechanism of mental ray, framebuffer interface (mostly a copy of rman one), mayabase lib shaders (contains all maya sw shaders written in mental form, which most likely required changes to produce secondary passes). It's also responsible for something called mental ray: an interface so complicated that you cannot goto change something somewhere and expect everything will be peachy (even in a shader), where a normal scenario is that if you do x, then y happens only if option z is active but secret option w is not active and that day is a prime number in the calendar. It's for sure doable, but it takes a long time.

So, the faults are on ADSK side for the design/workflow process (and the choice of still believing in mr) and of mental images (for the trippy architecture, and obviously for making mr itself ;) ).

P

DizzyJ
08-04-2009, 02:18 PM
Every company who has Maya now has a compositing app now possible dozens / hundreds of licenses... Try justifying to management now purchasing another composting app especially in this climate.

That depends on how the licensing works. If Toxic is bundled, but has to run on the same computer as Maya, that's only a win for small studios where people do everything. Otherwise, what good does a compositor do you if it's sitting on a Lighting TD's machine?

dagon1978
08-04-2009, 02:27 PM
The only fact here is that you can't read (or you reading is influenced). This time in fact I was b!tching more to ADSK than to the poor mentals (yes, incredible). So I am sorry but it's still too early to play your role of paladin of justice for the mental institute.

Actually there was a more important fact: Maya (mr4maya) cannot render multiple passes without major slow downs.

incorrect
the correct one is:
maya (mr4maya) cannot render multiple passes [bla bla bla] with the pass system developed by ADSK

:)
where is the "fault"?





Explanation:

ADSK, because I was speaking of them, subject subtended, developed a pass system that sucks spheres with 2009. And IMHO instead of putting a dead horse to handle comp and say that it is well integrated (see xsi or houdini for a real integrated compositor) they should work with mental (as if that is even remotely possible) to fix issues like "major slowdown when rendering multiple passes". Because, in case you know a comp needs images to work with, and if images takes 10x times to generate comp needs to wait.

I am well aware the Maya pass system was *developed* by ADSK. You can find confirmations in several older post of mine. But mental has its role: developed the pass mechanism of mental ray, framebuffer interface (mostly a copy of rman one), mayabase lib shaders (contains all maya sw shaders written in mental form, which most likely required changes to produce secondary passes). It's also responsible for something called mental ray: an interface so complicated that you cannot goto change something somewhere and expect everything will be peachy (even in a shader), where a normal scenario is that if you do x, then y happens only if option z is active but secret option w is not active and that day is a prime number in the calendar. It's for sure doable, but it takes a long time.

So, the faults are on ADSK side for the design/workflow process (and the choice of still believing in mr) and of mental images (for the trippy architecture, and obviously for making mr itself ;) ).

P
the faults are on ADSK side :) exactly

jupiterjazz
08-04-2009, 02:27 PM
That depends on how the licensing works. If Toxic is bundled, but has to run on the same computer as Maya, that's only a win for small studios where people do everything.

Good point.


Otherwise, what good does a compositor do you if it's sitting on a Lighting TD's machine?

Dies.

ThE_JacO
08-04-2009, 03:03 PM
Every company who has Maya now has a compositing app now possible dozens / hundreds of licenses... Try justifying to management now purchasing another composting app especially in this climate.
Every company who has Maya also has mental ray, yet everybody still buys PRMan and 3Delight seats for film, lots of vray/FR for archviz, and Arnold's gaining popularity in some venues at the speed of light now that betatesters have been allowed to show results and Sony started backing it up with some marketing.

Heavy climate or not sales of external renderers have never been so strong, even if the same one is integrated in the 3 top selling packages for DCC.

Comp is the same thing, they can bundle all the toxics they want, but in some markets the thought of using it is plain ludicrous no matter how cheap it might be, in some other markets just very dangerous, and half the stuff that's decent in toxic still requires the whole central serving and distribution she-bang, which doesn't exactly look like it's coming for free if you buy motionbuilder :)

Bundled for free doesn't mean immediate adoption if something doesn't deliver the goods. There's only that many square pegs you can fit in pipeline round holes before penny saving costs you a lot more in missed deliveries and you close doors. Or you wouldn't have different price ranges within the same category of software :)

ThE_JacO
08-04-2009, 03:06 PM
yes, it "has been", as you said
now the mray4maya integration is not in mental images anymore, do you know it or not?
because i prefer to talk about concrete things
he accused mental images for the render passes system when mental images have nothing to do with it, this is correct or not?
this is a fact :)
Where did I say it's not true? All I said was that you taking a potshot at paolo's knowledge instead of trying to put up half a smidge of a reasonable argument was out of place.
As simple as that.

I also tend to take with a handful of salt the MRay partisanry of somebody who sells MRay for Max books :)
But it's all forgiven for the glorious kettle and pot entertainment that represented.

Limbus
08-04-2009, 03:07 PM
I think AD is leveraging it to put the squeeze on Nuke and Fusion...catching them on one end with Toxic (via all the seats of Maya), and then enticing Studios to upgrade to Flare (Desktop variant of Flame) for high-end compositing...on the other

Plus nobody was buying Toxic apparently.

dagon1978
08-04-2009, 03:14 PM
I also tend to take with a handful of salt the MRay partisanry of somebody who sells MRay for Max books :)

:thumbsup:
so do i with an ex-employee talking about his past-job

peace

DizzyJ
08-04-2009, 03:20 PM
Comp is the same thing, they can bundle all the toxics they want, but in some markets the thought of using it is plain ludicrous no matter how cheap it might be, in some other markets just very dangerous, and half the stuff that's decent in toxic still requires the whole central serving and distribution she-bang, which doesn't exactly look like it's coming for free if you buy motionbuilder :)

I don't use Toxic, so I could be wrong, but my understanding was that they delinked it entirely from the database stuff, so it works as a stand-alone, the same as it's competitors

Bundled for free doesn't mean immediate adoption if something doesn't deliver the goods. There's only that many square pegs you can fit in pipeline round holes before penny saving costs you a lot more in missed deliveries and you close doors. Or you wouldn't have different price ranges within the same category of software :)

I wonder if the strategy here is more clever than a lot of us (including myself) are giving it credit for: target the broad base of small studios (who are much less likely to spend on software to replace functional bundled software), knowing that some of those studios will grow and eventually need to incorporate high-end compositing, which you will then happily sell them with Flame, Flare, etc. Toxic was a moneypit, but if they can turn it into a gateway drug for their more expensive compositing apps, there's a pay-off. Maybe not the one they wanted when they decided to develop Toxic, but...

jupiterjazz
08-04-2009, 03:40 PM
:thumbsup:
so do i with an ex-employee talking about his past-job
peace

I am not speaking about my past job. I am speaking about the *current* job adsk and the mental institute currently seem to (or NOT to) do.

So, it looks like you still have problems reading... Maybe too much mental testing? Careful with the dosage dude, didn't they warned you can end up blind? ;)

P.

dagon1978
08-04-2009, 03:48 PM
I am not speaking about my past job. I am speaking about the *current* job adsk and the mental institute currently seem to (or NOT to) do.

So, it looks like you still have problems reading... Maybe too much mental testing? Careful with the dosage dude, didn't they warned you can end up blind? ;)

P.

ahah so are you actually blind paolo?
at least now you're using vray instead of asking me how it work and what it can do :rolleyes:

Cheesestraws
08-04-2009, 04:03 PM
Well they are now doing a Maya 2010 presentation.

http://area.autodesk.com/siggraph2009

jupiterjazz
08-04-2009, 04:03 PM
ahah so are you actually blind paolo?
at least now you're using vray instead of asking me how it work and what it can do :rolleyes:

I know that answering to provocations is childish but..

ahah so are you actually blind paolo?

Don't worry, I always wore sunglasses B)


at least now you're using vray instead of asking me how it work and what it can do :rolleyes:

Sure and not only that, because I am very OPEN to alternatives and - as others told you - it's healthy to change your opinions from time to time, if you don't want to remain a retarded teenager. It's a natural step that should happen right after puberty, you must be a special case. :)

dagon1978
08-04-2009, 04:09 PM
I know that answering to provocations is childish but..



Don't worry, I always wore sunglasses B)



Sure and not only that, because I am very OPEN to alternatives and - as others told you - it's healthy to change your opinions from time to time, if you don't want to remain a retarded teenager. It's a natural step that should happen right after puberty, you must be a special case. :)

eheh
and when you was in your puberty, talking about superduper GI technology from mi and asking me about vray, maxwell and so, i tested it very well paolo :) i think you know it very well, or maybe your memory is gone like your view?

ThirdEye
08-04-2009, 04:11 PM
Will you two stop it? Nobody gives a damn, use pm's please.

Ollarin
08-04-2009, 04:21 PM
Well they are now doing a Maya 2010 presentation.

http://area.autodesk.com/siggraph2009
Could anyone give a quick synopsis on what they're showing?

My connection is too lame to watch the stream at the moment. :(
(Will they make the presentations available for download later on?)

rBrady
08-04-2009, 04:24 PM
as of 9:22 mountain time they have just shown matchmove (looks good). And fluids (exactly the same as its always been). So nothing new yet.

bjoern
08-04-2009, 04:30 PM
Watching right now the Maya presentation.
It sucks Big time!!!

One blabla that the presenter mentioned:
"Well we know in the crises it is right now tuff out there... so we try to put as much value in one packed as posible"

My coment on the?

GO AND F****K YOUR SELF Autodesk. how can you be so barefaced so sell such a SHIT
to your userbase.
Damm I miss the days when Maya was not under the BIG Evil Borgcontrol of AD.

I'm F****K freaking angry!

demoniorojo
08-04-2009, 04:45 PM
I remember the Alias and Discreet age...great new features in both apps, like Pflow in Max and nucleus core in Maya...:shrug:

Cheesestraws
08-04-2009, 04:45 PM
So far I think this presentation could have been done in Maya 8.5, possibly 2008 if they have changed some of the wind settings.

rBrady
08-04-2009, 04:45 PM
Take a breath bro. There could be some major stability improvements in 2010, more multithreading, better workflow, etc. That stuff is huge for guys like us in the trenches but doesn't make a flashy demo.

Reserve judgement till you spend a couple weeks in the app in a real production.



Cheesestraw: yea, it probably could have been done in 8.5, maybe even 7 with cpcloth.

Br1
08-04-2009, 04:47 PM
Trying to not fall asleep while watching the presentation...

"...and this is Maya Composite..." with a nice Splash-screen saying Toxik ...

Cheesestraws
08-04-2009, 04:50 PM
I am mainly a Nuke user, but this does remind me how much I like a lot of the features and interface in Toxik.

lazzhar
08-04-2009, 05:00 PM
Trying to not fall asleep while watching the presentation...
...

I did here :) but from what have seen, nothing new.
Funny, he was running Toxik , the splash screen was saying Autotesk Toxik but he insists it's Maya Composer lol
Even, Matchmover seemed a separate package.
Where is the integration?

Larry_g1s
08-04-2009, 05:01 PM
Not that $3500 is chump change, but considering where it was, that's a decent value now for full blown Maya.

elvis75k
08-04-2009, 05:12 PM
..from the streaming "Hey welcome back... " and i've shut it down.
Feel very strange today, don't know why!

AlexTNT
08-04-2009, 05:21 PM
autodesk got lazy :|

mental
08-04-2009, 05:26 PM
it was 2008 extension1
anyone noted that there wasn't an extension for 2009?
Maya has alternated between a full and full+point release like clockwork since version 2. You could say that Maya 2008 Ext 1 (Maya 9.5) was the oddball which threw off the traditional release schedule. If they follow the same pattern then Maya 2010 should see an Extension in about 6 months.

1.0-1.5, 2.0-2.5, 3.0, 4.0-4.5, 5.0, 6.0-6.5, 7.0, 8.0-8.5, 2008-2008Ext 1, 2009, 2010-2010Ext 1(?)

Cheesestraws
08-04-2009, 05:32 PM
All the rumours did say the exciting features ended up slipping from this release, so maybe we will get an exciting ext1 or 2011.

rBrady
08-04-2009, 05:46 PM
I think I smelled some stock linear workflow in there towards the end. That could be really nice.

Cheesestraws
08-04-2009, 05:46 PM
Well according to Shawn Hendriks on Twitter.

shawnhendriks (http://twitter.com/shawnhendriks)@cheesestraws (http://twitter.com/cheesestraws) yep thats exactly it lots of the fixes and speed things.

noizFACTORY
08-04-2009, 06:15 PM
It's also responsible for something called mental ray: an interface so complicated that you cannot goto change something somewhere and expect everything will be peachy (even in a shader), where a normal scenario is that if you do x, then y happens only if option z is active but secret option w is not active and that day is a prime number in the calendar. It's for sure doable, but it takes a long time.
P

LOL, Paolo, thats killer.

I guess if the detailed features list that everyone is hoping for does not turn up, then there really is no good reason for an upgrade. Darn, wish we had upgraded to 2009 for nParticles though.

Not-Sure
08-04-2009, 06:16 PM
"fixes and speed things" - sounds good. Hopefully, more multicore enabled functions as well.

The "fire the cannons! - release the baloons!" bundle thing, is somewhat grotesquely embarrassing...

lazzhar
08-04-2009, 06:34 PM
they are streaming some maya stuff now.

cheebamonkey
08-04-2009, 06:48 PM
Not that $3500 is chump change, but considering where it was, that's a decent value now for full blown Maya.

Also, you can buy Maya Complete w/subscription and get a free upgrade to Maya 2010 until august 14th.

$1995 + $595 = $2590

bjoern
08-04-2009, 07:23 PM
Don't wanna kick the hope away of some guys here about speed and bugfixes.
But maya was supposed to get the new interface and it had it for a while in the Betaprogram,
They Just dropped it because it was to buggy and could not finished it on time.
That is not my opinion. That is right from a Betatester. Not me...

"My Opinion" about this release is until I see something different:
Oh shit we can't get the new interface done, damm, what can we do, we have no new features... what can we do?
The Marketing guy says... WELL...we could bundle some stuff together and sell it as an upgrade.

This is the only explanation thing that makes sense to me...

hanskloss
08-04-2009, 07:50 PM
I don't understand what is the point of not streaming whatever they are currently showing at the ADSK booth. People there are seeing this so what's the difference? LOL...Anyways...

I'm curious if any of the botched modeling tools are ever going to be fixed so they actually work as intended.

Ben-Davis
08-04-2009, 07:56 PM
Modo is beginning to look a lot more attractive...

PerryDS
08-04-2009, 08:25 PM
Geez, I feel like Christmas has arrived for me because I just purchased Maya 2009 with a subscription license. Go figure.

Buexe
08-04-2009, 08:42 PM
This bundle thing is a piece of junk if you ask me. I don`t care for toxik, I don`t care for matchmover and I have already spent time and money on another renderer and render management software, so I don`t see this "value" the marketing priests promises. I pay for maintainance for Maya and don`t want this money to be used to subsidize dead-end packages.

hanskloss
08-04-2009, 08:47 PM
Honestly this release doesn't surprise me one bit. Knowing how many great people have been let go and how many people actually work on Maya these days, everything adds up. I wouldn't expect anything remotely resembling a max 2010 or Mudbox 2010 release anytime soon. Thinking about it a bit more, maybe Autodesk doesn't want to spend any more time developing Maya, who knows..., but yes seeing the details about the release its a very substandard release, no doubt.

cheebamonkey
08-04-2009, 08:56 PM
looking at the streaming from the booth right now... the Max ActiveShade (IPR) looks pretty nice.

hanskloss
08-04-2009, 08:59 PM
looking at the streaming from the booth right now... the Max ActiveShade (IPR) looks pretty nice.

Agreed, it is nice. Seems like its running on separate hardware.

mr Bob
08-04-2009, 09:00 PM
I knew more or less what the the road map for Maya looked like, and considering how many great people have been let go in Toronto and how many people actually work on Maya

Yeah this is what I expected to happen , development grinds to a halt as theres just not a good ratio of expenditure on R&D and then a return. AD can do what they like and customers will suck it up as they have no choice what so ever.

Cheesestraws
08-04-2009, 09:01 PM
looking at the streaming from the booth right now... the Max ActiveShade (IPR) looks pretty nice.

Are you talking about the Brazil Interactive Renderer running on the Caustic card?

dnashj33
08-04-2009, 09:02 PM
looking at the streaming from the booth right now... the Max ActiveShade (IPR) looks pretty nice.You pretty much get similar performance from Vray RT or the new FinalRender R3. Very much like FPrime (plugin renderer for Lightwave).

GatorNic
08-04-2009, 09:34 PM
There are other minor features, it looks like, but how in the hell do you consider rolling a $3500 compositor (which rivals Nuke), and MatchMover into the program lame? Go Figure...

That attitude...is what's lame.

If you had read further down from that post, you'll note I also said that you can't argue with the value of the of new Maya. Its a steal for a generalist. The reasons why it is lame though is:

1. For basically modelers, lighters, riggers, animators, you look forward to each new release for possibly even a single new tool to help you in your workflow and this year there is nada.

2. And just in terms of thinking up new tools or new workflows, it just seems like a cop-out. Just seems like they "phoned it in this year" and took existing packages and sandwiched them together. Given, I am sure its not easy to integrate but was it necessary? If you are going to give them for free "in" Maya why not just give them free "with" Maya. Atleast then you don't get the things I worry about the most with this upgrade....bloat and stability. Maya is already a big full-featured package, now they are adding two more into it. How big and how stable will this sucker be? We'll see...

SheepFactory
08-04-2009, 09:52 PM
If you had read further down from that post, you'll note I also said that you can't argue with the value of the of new Maya. Its a steal for a generalist. The reasons why it is lame though is:

1. For basically modelers, lighters, riggers, animators, you look forward to each new release for possibly even a single new tool to help you in your workflow and this year there is nada.

2. And just in terms of thinking up new tools or new workflows, it just seems like a cop-out. Just seems like they "phoned it in this year" and took existing packages and sandwiched them together. Given, I am sure its not easy to integrate but was it necessary? If you are going to give them for free "in" Maya why not just give them free "with" Maya. Atleast then you don't get the things I worry about the most with this upgrade....bloat and stability. Maya is already a big full-featured package, now they are adding two more into it. How big and how stable will this sucker be? We'll see...


They are not adding toxik and MM into maya. You still run those as seperate apps as far as I know.

MasonDoran
08-04-2009, 10:04 PM
Just watched the live stream of Siggraph on the Maya suite. 1hr long talk, with maybe 10 minutes actually in Maya. The rest was explaining Mudbox, Motionbuilder, and Toxik.

Its the equivalent of GO-Z ...

Just makes me think that this version is going to flop because no one is going to see the need to upgrade.

Grim Beefer
08-04-2009, 10:07 PM
huh? I've been using max for about 10 years now, and I swear backburner seems as buggy as it always has.

Not to derail the thread, but I just wanted to voice my total agreement with this statement. If the backburner Maya users are now getting is the same backburner us Max users have been blessed with, in my experience it's pretty much useless.

Obviously a lot of people have gotten upset that backburner doesn't work as advertised, and that AD has refused to update the software in years. I believe the official response was something along the lines of "if you want actual stability and usabality, go use a third party solution. Backburner is what it is, take it or leave it!" (not an actual quote...just my fuzzy memories).

next part is a little off topic----

It would appear that "third party solutions" are now the staple at Autodesk. All those cool modelling tools added to Max last upgrade were actually a purchased plugin (that sold for around $100). I often wonder what a company the size of AD, we're talking billions here, actually does all day at the office. Given the increases in affordabilty, computing power, and communications, shouldn't we be in a golden age of software innovation? How can one dude autonomously, and on a personal budget, write a plugin that is somehow worthy enough to be sold as a huge part of a major release, when several people, on a payroll full time, seem to come up with doodly-squat? The mysteries...

Steve Green
08-04-2009, 10:14 PM
I've not had problems with BB lately particularly - however it has had periods where, it's been an absolute pain in the arse.

When I brought up the subject, I was told (and this is from memory), that there was no real budget for backburner, it was just a freebie and there are third-party solutions available if you don't like it.

Which is in the same ball park as your recollection.

I don't know if AD's attitude to it has changed with regards to BB.

Cheers,

Steve

visionmaster2
08-04-2009, 10:16 PM
Stranges "updates" for softimage and maya.

it's smell like they are preparing something new.

JWRodegher
08-04-2009, 10:17 PM
The most annoying thing is actually the "new features" list. They put things I and everybody knows been there for years as new, as if they could actually get away with it. Did they believe nobody would notice that hair/fur/modelling tools/fluids are actually NEW features? do they think we are retarded or something.

If AD would tell us instead "well, there's no new features but we fixed all of this (speed issues and bugs)", it would be fine by me. It would be really a good thing actually. I don't need so much new stuff, just the ones I have to work as they should, quick and stable.

Instead they tell us to our face that really old and not updated stuff is new! And to make all even better (embarrasing) they just give away some apps no one wants! (don't know about MM though). If you guys at AD wanted to help me so much with comp, give me some really working freaking render layers or passes, I got the composition thing nailed down with my own app of choice, thank you very much.

I don't get why everyone is so happy about the price! Did any of you was planning to buy toxic? Do you think a NOT updated software plus some apps you don't mind having make for a good update? geez!

GatorNic
08-04-2009, 10:20 PM
They are not adding toxik and MM into maya. You still run those as seperate apps as far as I know.

Well on the autodesk page it says:

"Development efforts for Autodesk® Toxik™ compositing software have been transferred to Autodesk® Maya® 3D modeling, animation, visual effects, and rendering software. Autodesk Toxik is no longer available for purchase as a standalone product"

Not sure if that means they are integrated or not. Not sure about MM either. But lets just say for a moment they are not in the same package. Alright, cool takes care of the bloat. But just re-enforces the first part of my second reason. What the heck were they doing for a year? Writing a GO-Z type plugin?

Don't take me to wrong, I still love Maya and will continue using it. I guess I just find myself a bit disappointed, especially when I am hoping that they changed this tool or fixed that tool. Previous releases have always atleast had some enhancements across the board for all areas of production and this one just seems lopsided. Alright, anyway enough ranting.

dnashj33
08-04-2009, 10:27 PM
If you had read further down from that post, you'll note I also said that you can't argue with the value of the of new Maya. Its a steal for a generalist. The reasons why it is lame though is:

1. For basically modelers, lighters, riggers, animators, you look forward to each new release for possibly even a single new tool to help you in your workflow and this year there is nada.

2. And just in terms of thinking up new tools or new workflows, it just seems like a cop-out. Just seems like they "phoned it in this year" and took existing packages and sandwiched them together. Given, I am sure its not easy to integrate but was it necessary? If you are going to give them for free "in" Maya why not just give them free "with" Maya. Atleast then you don't get the things I worry about the most with this upgrade....bloat and stability. Maya is already a big full-featured package, now they are adding two more into it. How big and how stable will this sucker be? We'll see...

I understand the frustration for those expecting changes to the program itself, and from some of the information shared here, it seems THOSE changes just weren't quite ready for prime time. They wouldn't be the first software developer to miss targets. In Max, I've been waiting for a few years for a true IPR, and this summer is the first time we've had anything come available (Vray RT, FinalRander R3...with hardware acceleration available just like Caustic has with Brazil). You Maya users have had a built-in IPR for a few versions now. Maya is so full-featured now, it now represents the best value for the dollar among the 3 AD applications...even if Max 2011 comes with Toxik as well. This is huge, IMHO.

There are ALWAYS going to be customers who don't need certain added features....but on the whole, this can still be viewed as a major feature release. Again, it seems obvious that internal improvements will be forthcoming...and these new additions certainly make it worth the wait.

DizzyJ
08-04-2009, 10:29 PM
I don't get why everyone is so happy about the price! Did any of you was planning to buy toxic? Do you think a NOT updated software plus some apps you don't mind having make for a good update? geez!

if you're an Unlimited user, the price drop is a significant price drop. I'm happy about that.

I do wonder if there were a whole bunch of nasty conversations at ADSK 3 months ago (or whenever it was they needed to nail down the feature list). The engineers saying, no way can we get this out for SIGGRAPH. The bosses, say, but...but... we have to. Reality wins, 2010 has few new features, but sometime around January, the engineers deliver what would have been 2010 if ADSK wasn't committed to yearly upgrades. Of course, non-subscribers have to wait for Maya 2011.

gandhics
08-04-2009, 10:34 PM
We have used BackBurner for more than 5 years. Our renderfarm size is around 50 machines.
Sure sometimes BB cause some problems. But overall it has been good.
We even used BB for Fusion and Terragen.
It might not be as great as 3rd-party manager, but I don't agree that it is useless.

Ben-Davis
08-04-2009, 10:43 PM
From watching the Autodesk presentation at Siggraph, it seems that both Toxic (Composer or whatever it's called) and Matchmover aren't integrated into Maya itself, they seem to run as separate apps. So to me the only development that's happened is that they've added two new programs to the installer. Great.

cresshead
08-04-2009, 10:47 PM
watching the demo guys, they launch toxic and mm as separate apps when they are doing the maya2010 demo's

http://area.autodesk.com/siggraph2009

ulb
08-04-2009, 10:48 PM
From watching the Autodesk presentation at Siggraph, it seems that both Toxic (Composer or whatever it's called) and Matchmover aren't integrated into Maya itself, they seem to run as separate apps. So to me the only development that's happened is that they've added two new programs to the installer. Great.
Sometimes I think that if Autodesk did put 10.000$ in every maya box, the maya users would complain that it is not well integrated with the box. :rolleyes:

th3ta
08-04-2009, 10:49 PM
I've been using Backburner for about 5 years now on a 30+ cpu farm, and I haven't had a single issue with it.

tonytrout
08-04-2009, 10:51 PM
Also, you can buy Maya Complete w/subscription and get a free upgrade to Maya 2010 until august 14th.

$1995 + $595 = $2590

Is this option still available? Can you provide a confirmation link to this as it seems too good to be true, but something I would definitely look at if this is still a goer. Cheers

DuttyFoot
08-04-2009, 10:51 PM
Thinking about it a bit more, maybe Autodesk doesn't want to spend any more time developing Maya, who knows..., but yes seeing the details about the release its a very substandard release, no doubt.

yeah the way things are going it has me wondering also. there really aren't any new features, they just added two existing apps to maya. maybe along with adding MM, and Tox they have a lot of bug fixes.

PiotrekM
08-04-2009, 10:59 PM
I've been using Backburner for about 5 years now on a 30+ cpu farm, and I haven't had a single issue with it.

Backburner has alot of issues.

Imhotep397
08-04-2009, 11:38 PM
Right now I'm sure that the apps aren't that well integrated, meaning you probably won't be able to re-render and control Maya render layers, have easy transfer of normal map info for relighting in the composite etc. from within Toxik, but I wouldn't be surprised if that becomes the development path. It's definitely going to put a cramp on stand alone compositing app seats sold. I haven't used Toxik, but I have used flint/flame/inferno when they were still the standard and if most of what was in those is in Toxik (not like combustion) for what compositors do on a daily basis it'll be more than sufficient. Other 3D type matchmoving apps like Boujou, 3D Equalizer, and PF Track will take a hit, but not as badly because MatchMover doesn't lt have the same kind of reputation, but they should be aon the look out. As the development better integrates these technologies there will be a more and more difficult conversation around getting certain specialty apps just because some kind of accomodations will have to be made to work them into the pipeline. AE gets a pass at the moment, because discreet never had good animation type tools, but a lot of this really is also going to open doors for scripters, provided AutoDesk allows for open scripting in Toxik and MatchMover.

At the very least I see compositing companies having to drop prices in the near future.

cresshead
08-04-2009, 11:41 PM
Is this option still available? Can you provide a confirmation link to this as it seems too good to be true, but something I would definitely look at if this is still a goer. Cheers

http://www.bluegfx.com/

http://www.bluegfx.com/jpeg_intro_1.jpg

i'd expect the same deal is around for usa too

cresshead
08-04-2009, 11:44 PM
Backburner has alot of issues.

good to see someone working hard to find a negative aspect amongst all the positives in maya2010 :thumbsup:

spurcell
08-05-2009, 12:02 AM
good to see someone working hard to find a negative aspect amongst all the positives in maya2010 :thumbsup:

:rolleyes:

thinsoldier
08-05-2009, 12:15 AM
Don't wanna kick the hope away of some guys here about speed and bugfixes.
But maya was supposed to get the new interface and it had it for a while in the Betaprogram,
They Just dropped it because it was to buggy and could not finished it on time.
That is not my opinion. That is right from a Betatester. Not me...

"My Opinion" about this release is until I see something different:
Oh shit we can't get the new interface done, damm, what can we do, we have no new features... what can we do?
The Marketing guy says... WELL...we could bundle some stuff together and sell it as an upgrade.

This is the only explanation thing that makes sense to me...

Screenshot?

cheebamonkey
08-05-2009, 12:31 AM
Maurice (Product Marketing, Autodesk A&E) gives a complete explanation @ Area:

empi999 : http://area.autodesk.com/blogs/cory/maya_and_motionbuilder_2010_announcement

TopherMartini
08-05-2009, 12:37 AM
Is this option still available? Can you provide a confirmation link to this as it seems too good to be true, but something I would definitely look at if this is still a goer. Cheers
Contact your local reseller because prices will vary by location and market, but you should be able to purchase a new license of Maya Complete 2009 + subscription until August 14th.

From the press release:
Pricing and Availability

Autodesk anticipates that Maya 2010 will be available in August 2009. Maya 2010 will also ship as part of the Autodesk's new Digital Entertainment Creation suites. The Autodesk suggested retail price (SRP) of a license of Maya 2010 will be US$3,495***. Upgrades to Maya 2010 from Maya Complete and Maya Unlimited 2009 will be US$895***. All Maya Complete and Maya Unlimited customers with current Autodesk Subscription will be entitled to the Maya 2010 release. The Autodesk suggested retail price (SRP) for the Entertainment Creation Suite will be US$4,995***. The Autodesk SRP for the Real-time Animation Suite will be US$4,795***.

Autodesk Subscription is available for purchase with the product license purchase or upgrade. The Autodesk suggested retail price for Autodesk Subscription is US$595*** per year for Maya. Subscription customers have access to up-to-date software, learning resources and an extensive online technical knowledge base. For more information about the Subscription offering for Maya 2010, visit www.autodesk.com/mayasubscription.
Have been actively discussing all the options with a local reseller to upgrade from Maya Unlimited 2008 to Maya 2010 + subscription. The original quote came in at over $3400 which is ridiculous when you can buy a new license of Maya Complete 2009 + subscription for significantly less than that… both of which get you to Maya 2010.

The ultimate irony for a Maya Unlimited 2008 customer is that it's less than half the price to electively downgrade from Maya Unlimited 2008 to Maya Complete 2008, then to upgrade to Maya Complete 2009 + subscription which includes Maya 2010 upon release.

rock
08-05-2009, 12:41 AM
Thanks CheebaMonkey for the link. Here it is guys - judge for yourself:

The Strategy behind Maya 2010

First, rest assured that we read the forums, (both here, on CGSociety and elsewhere) and we do take note of what is being said. So I want to take a moment to follow up on Cory's comments and explain a little of our strategy behind Maya 2010.

Firstly Maya 2010 is (as advertised) a unification of the Maya Complete 2009 and Maya Unlimited 2009 feature sets – (See usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=13577897&siteID=123112) (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?id=13577897&siteID=123112%29) – with the addition of Maya Composite (based on Toxik), MatchMover and Mental Ray Batch.

Maya 2010 is therefore a new product configuration. It is based on the Maya 2009 feature set + new software. The strategy of the release is to offer a single, affordable CG pipeline solution based on feedback from our customers on the overall cost of owning Maya. Maya 2010 is offered at no cost to all subscription customers, upgrade pricing is equivalent to significantly lower to previous upgrade pricing for both Complete and Unlimited customers and we have addressed customer requests for more affordable Subscription and Gold Support offerings – this release is really about more putting more value in the box.

So what does this mean for the future development of Maya? – Well first, to be crystal clear – Maya is one of Autodesk’s top selling products and we are 100% committed to it. As Cory says, the development team is hard at work on what we feel will be some very compelling features – we’d love to share them with you to make our point but as a publicly traded company we cannot without then having to defer all Maya revenue until we ship the disclosed features (If you are interested in why I can tell you more) – and we are not ready to do that just yet. We wanted a slightly longer development cycle this time to get these features to where we feel they really need to be.

Every release we do try to offer value to our customers. We cannot always succeed with all customers equally. With such a broad customer base and such a diverse product there are always areas of focus, but we try to create a long-term balance. Not all features can be developed in short time frames and so releases can be lumpy with one release seeming to be more for user type X and another for type Y.

We do understand that there are many things we can be doing with Maya – many requests, many ideas for areas of improvement and many things people would like to see changed – some of these are great ideas and some are contradictory but we take them all into consideration and then make decisions based on feasibility and what we feel is best for the product as a whole.

We plan our strategy a few years out and our strategy calls for us to enable more efficient creative workflows – we believe this requires more integrated CG workflows and we see the synergy between rendering and compositing becoming more important as CG content continues to grow – hence that focus on this release – beginning to bridge the gap between 2D and 3D.

We understand that this is of more value to smaller companies and that larger facilities will often have high levels of specialization and customization – often developing their own simulation tools –and sometimes even their own compositing tools – but our goal was to provide a more cost-effective and complete solution to everyone – especially customers who do not have access to internal development resources or bigger budgets.

However we also collaborate closely with our larger customers and we will continue to develop tools and capabilities that address those needs too – much like our stereo capabilities (Maya 2009) were developed in close collaboration with companies like DreamWorks.

Regards

Maurice Patel
Product Marketing – Autodesk M&E

TopherMartini
08-05-2009, 12:42 AM
The ultimate irony for a Maya Unlimited 2008 customer is that it's less than half the price to electively downgrade from Maya Unlimited 2008 to Maya Complete 2008, then to upgrade to Maya Complete 2009 + subscription which includes Maya 2010 upon release.
Should amend this to say that it's intended to be a positive remark and not critical of pricing / licensing…

It actually works out to be quite a deal since a version upgrade from Maya Unlimited 2008 to 2009 is $1525 in the US, so by downgrading to Maya Complete 2008 and upgrading to Maya Complete 2009 + subscription (also ~$1500) you're getting Maya 2010 and a year of subscription.

Decisions, decisions… :thumbsup:

cheebamonkey
08-05-2009, 12:46 AM
I received info from our local reseller today. I'm looking hard at getting the 2009 Complete with subscription deal for home. It's just too hard to pass up.

rock
08-05-2009, 12:55 AM
I was just thinking about the Digital Tutors latest DVD, Introduction to Maya 2009. They can just change the title to Introduction to Maya 2010 and repackaged the DVD. And Lynda.com Maya 2009 Essentials, they can just rename it to Maya 2010 essentials.

KidderD
08-05-2009, 12:58 AM
I was just thinking about the Digital Tutors latest DVD, Introduction to Maya 2009. They can just change the title to Introduction to Maya 2010 and repackaged the DVD. And Lynda.com Maya 2009 Essentials, they can just rename it to Maya 2010 essentials.

And more positive news. It likely won't be an issue for compiling plugins:)

republicavfx
08-05-2009, 01:09 AM
I was just thinking about the Digital Tutors latest DVD, Introduction to Maya 2009. They can just change the title to Introduction to Maya 2010 and repackaged the DVD. And Lynda.com Maya 2009 Essentials, they can just rename it to Maya 2010 essentials.


yeah..u can 'add notes' twice now ;) ...maybe better to focus on content than delivery and marketing

edit: actually i take that back for being cynical -- way to go DT!! :bounce: :bounce:

Kabab
08-05-2009, 02:13 AM
The Strategy behind Maya 2010
So what your saying is you couldn't get everything finished for the traditional Siggraph release schedule so to try and keep everyone happy and make things easer at adsk you guys repackaged Maya added some freebies to keep the mob in check and that a kick ass Maya 2010.5 will come out with stacks of new features?

That is how I interpret it :bounce:

Jon A. Bell
08-05-2009, 02:38 AM
I'm very interested in seeing if Toxik is going to be bundled in future versions of 3ds max, or available to subscribers before max 2011 (next spring) is slated for release.

I'm really trying to figure out my compositing needs. I love Combustion, but it's pretty much an orphaned product, but the future of Toxik is a big question mark as well. After Effects has incredible 3rd-party support, but I need something that can handle complex HD-res comps without breaking a sweat.

Decisions, decisions...

cresshead
08-05-2009, 03:16 AM
I'm very interested in seeing if Toxik is going to be bundled in future versions of 3ds max, or available to subscribers before max 2011 (next spring) is slated for release.



Decisions, decisions...

well max users on subscription got match mover and a 6 month licence of mudbox2009 [not 2010]...

I'm kinda miffed we didn't also get toxic and dump mudbox 6month trial or we get a full mudbox...6month trials are really useless for me, i have zbrush.

not sure what 3dsmax users will get in max2011..i'd hope for maybe toxic but i think it looks like we won't..if we were we'd have had it 'now' i think...unless max2011 is also looking feature lite then throwing toxic in to an almost unchnged max2011 would be 'doing a maya'...i'd expect c.a.t. to be intergrated in max2011 but not s urewhat else will turn up....

We could 'hope' for Vray!..would make HUGE sense as max is looking more like a arch viz app in the demo's autodesk do recently.

Jon A. Bell
08-05-2009, 03:23 AM
well max users on subscription got match mover and a 6 month licence of mudbox2009 [not 2010]...

I'm kinda miffed we didn't also get toxic and dump mudbox 6month trial or we get a full mudbox...6month trials are really useless for me, i have zbrush.

not sure what 3dsmax users will get in max2011..i'd hope for maybe toxic but i think it looks like we won't..if we were we'd have had it 'now' i think...unless max2011 is also looking feature lite then throwing toxic in to an almost unchnged max2011 would be 'doing a maya'...i'd expect c.a.t. to be intergrated in max2011 but not s urewhat else will turn up....

We could 'hope' for Vray!..would make HUGE sense as max is looking more like a arch viz app in the demo's autodesk do recently.

I've thought for a long time that Autodesk should bundle Combustion with max; they actually work well together (Render Elements and Combustion workspaces), but I expect to read any day that the software has been officially discontinued.

I'm very curious as to the future direction of Brazil (I've never used V-ray.)

cresshead
08-05-2009, 03:32 AM
going slightly off topic here but what are maxon going to do now?

cinema4d studio is now more expensive than maya2010, xsi advanced or 3dsmax...

when you compare maya2010 to cinema4d studio...
cinema has no compositor, no tracking app...cost more and upgrades are 200% the cost of maya's subsciption.

do you think they'll try for a bundle deal with after effects and slash their base price on cinema4d?

if they do that...how's that going to play with modo, they just increased their price of modo to $999

lightwave is stuck at 9.6 and newtek are busy making their next gen 3d app to replace lightwave..but probably won't see the light of day till 2011 as a full app so they're out of the picture for a couple of years.

dnashj33
08-05-2009, 04:11 AM
going slightly off topic here but what are maxon going to do now?

cinema4d studio is now more expensive than maya2010, xsi advanced or 3dsmax...

when you compare maya2010 to cinema4d studio...
cinema has no compositor, no tracking app...cost more and upgrades are 200% the cost of maya's subsciption.

do you think they'll try for a bundle deal with after effects and slash their base price on cinema4d?

if they do that...how's that going to play with modo, they just increased their price of modo to $999

lightwave is stuck at 9.6 and newtek are busy making their next gen 3d app to replace lightwave..but probably won't see the light of day till 2011 as a full app so they're out of the picture for a couple of years.C4D has had that half-price promotion lately, and they are probably going to have to adopt that as the new pricing structure going forward. Companies across the globe are having to scale back and cut costs. No reason for these CC programs to maintain status quo. The market just can't bear the old pricing paradigm.

dnashj33
08-05-2009, 04:24 AM
So what your saying is you couldn't get everything finished for the traditional Siggraph release schedule so to try and keep everyone happy and make things easer at adsk you guys repackaged Maya added some freebies to keep the mob in check and that a kick ass Maya 2010.5 will come out with stacks of new features?

That is how I interpret it :bounce:Whatever they are working on just isn't ready for prime time...that's why these new releases each year is more of a curse than a blessing to them sometimes. I could see people complaining if it was just Combustion thrown in (which hasn't been updated in a CG lifetime), but Toxik is no slouch at all. It's a very elegant compositor, and seemingly the next generation replacement for Combustion. Toxic, extra Mental Ray nodes and MatchMover is a sweet "Tide you over till dinner is ready" treat, if you want to look at it that way.
I think it's great and makes me rather envious as a Max user.

ulb
08-05-2009, 04:37 AM
I think it's great and makes me rather envious as a Max user.
I'm jealous too! I hope they will also package toxik with max. Having a compositor with max or maya is really a big and welcome addition.

swardson
08-05-2009, 04:38 AM
As an initially frustrated user I am starting to cool down and look at this from a business standpoint. Now I for one am excited about this release because having Toxic and match mover in my arsenal can only be a positive thing. After reading the post from AutoDesk above I am more even excited to see what is coming down the pipe.

I do have a question though. Do we have any confirmation about what will be able to run under OS X?

Maya -> Of course
Toxic -> ?
Matchmover -> I think so
Backburner-> ?

I really hope there are no limitations on the OS X side. Being a subscription member I am looking forward to receiving my copies in a couple weeks and hope to get my feet wet with everything listed.

Brad

dprgb
08-05-2009, 04:39 AM
Anyone know if there will be a crossgrade available to go from Max to Maya?

DizzyJ
08-05-2009, 05:11 AM
Do we have any confirmation about what will be able to run under OS X?


ADSK answered that with the system specks: only Backburner is astrisked as requiring Windows or Linux. Everything else should be good to go under Intel OS X

cresshead
08-05-2009, 05:14 AM
As an initially frustrated user I am starting to cool down and look at this from a business standpoint. Now I for one am excited about this release because having Toxic and match mover in my arsenal can only be a positive thing. After reading the post from AutoDesk above I am more even excited to see what is coming down the pipe.

I do have a question though. Do we have any confirmation about what will be able to run under OS X?

Maya -> Of course
Toxic -> ?
Matchmover -> I think so
Backburner-> ?

I really hope there are no limitations on the OS X side. Being a subscription member I am looking forward to receiving my copies in a couple weeks and hope to get my feet wet with everything listed.

Brad

Toxic was available for windows and linux...no osx version so you'll need to bootcamp it.

see the 2009 review of it
http://www.postmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?tier=4&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&sid=&nm=&id=7181E1FF912B476287C654CA183A7F1E&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle

mercuito
08-05-2009, 06:13 AM
I think what autodesk is doing is great. And I commend them for pubicly responding to all our concerns.

Obviously whatever they are planning is big and worth the wait. I respect them for once for not bowing to pressure to release a set of half finished features and then releasing a service pack later on to fix it, as we've all seen many times. Microsoft have got their act together and are finally releasing a worthy product and I think AD are going the same way.

They now have the time they need to redesign or whatever they are doing with Maya and not have the pressure of a tight release date.

I for one am happy to wait for them to release a truely worthy product, and this current upgrade is a great way for them to buy the time they need and also provide a great boost to smaller studios and individuals.

I just hope we don't have to wait another year before we hear anything new.

SheepFactory
08-05-2009, 06:17 AM
Toxic was available for windows and linux...no osx version so you'll need to bootcamp it.

see the 2009 review of it
http://www.postmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?tier=4&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&sid=&nm=&id=7181E1FF912B476287C654CA183A7F1E&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle


The review says they have been beta testing the mac version so maybe it will be out with 2010.

techmage
08-05-2009, 06:28 AM
what if each new release of maya is dissapointing but then the autodesk pr pops in and says 'just wait to see how awesome its going to be in the coming months'

I mean. they could keep that going for years without anything ever happening...

It's not like autodesk has to worry about people stealing the new maya UI, or new integrations of mental ray. Autodesk could be a little more open about whats coming. I mean, both luxology and pixologic were discussing and showing off new features well over a month in advance. And both those companies have more to worry about in IP being stolen than autodesk, given that luxology and pixologic are actually innovators. Why is autodesk so secretive? Theres no need to be. It makes me wonder.

dprgb
08-05-2009, 06:35 AM
Autodesk could be a little more open about whats coming.

It's not the threat of IP being stealed, it's Sarbanes-Oxley (see Wikipedia for the full bill). They're not allowed to let you know what's coming too far ahead of time. I think it was this last release of Max that they had to get it out by a certain date or they'd be in big trouble accounting wise with how they post profits from the subscription service.

aydinu
08-05-2009, 07:39 AM
From what I heard when they bought Softimage was that Autodesk was planning to focus with Max mainly into Viz, XSI for games and Maya for highend stuff. But at the end I am also happy that there are not separate versions anymore

mattwood
08-05-2009, 08:39 AM
Toxic was available for windows and linux...no osx version so you'll need to bootcamp it.

see the 2009 review of it
http://www.postmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?tier=4&mid=8F3A7027421841978F18BE895F87F791&sid=&nm=&id=7181E1FF912B476287C654CA183A7F1E&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle

Toxic 2010 is OSX native. The release of Toxic 2009 OSX was announced in back in January.

link (http://www.pcdistrict.com/autodesk-introduces-autodesk-toxik-mudbox-and-imagemodeler-review7017-21.html)

I wonder why AD spent all that money porting the app to the Mac? It's almost as if they were purposefully investing in a long term strategy. Who'd have thought.

morimitsu
08-05-2009, 09:08 AM
By the time AD bought Alias, I have been thinking they must have a secret project for developing the real next generation 3d app. After they bought Softimage, the odds increased. They are the ones who have the money and after those purchases, they have one of the best developers.

I think it´s just a matter of time for them to keep slowing down the development of their Max, Maya and SI and release, maybe in 2 to 5 years, the next big thing.

Just like in the old times, when Silicon Graphics bought Alias, Wavefront and TDI, and a few years later released Maya. After that every other software copied or adapted some workflow of Maya into their own. So, it was really a great release, to say the least.

The next generation 3D software release could be great. I can´t wait to see how it´s going to be.

Dimitree
08-05-2009, 04:58 PM
Ultimately disappointing release in a row -> switches to another package :banghead:

CaptainSam
08-05-2009, 05:06 PM
By the time AD bought Alias, I have been thinking they must have a secret project for developing the real next generation 3d app. After they bought Softimage, the odds increased. They are the ones who have the money and after those purchases, they have one of the best developers.

Max, Maya and Softimage are all approximately 10 years old. The feature set, stability etc that they have are the result of TEN years of work. Given the current economical climate, what are the chances that Autodesk will pay God knows how many programmers for God knows how many years to write a new program when they have the three leading applications in the field already, partilularly when none of them are in any desparate need of a complete rewrite. And merging the code of three separate programs, one of which only ruins on Windows, is simply not doable.

cresshead
08-05-2009, 05:18 PM
Ultimately disappointing release in a row -> switches to another package :banghead:

best of luck with your new app>>> poser 8! :thumbsup:

ThirdEye
08-05-2009, 05:45 PM
best of luck with your new app>>> poser 8! :thumbsup:

Now tell me how useful your comment is supposed to be.

DuttyFoot
08-05-2009, 06:38 PM
Ultimately disappointing release in a row -> switches to another package :banghead:

maybe he doesn't really mean it

best of luck with your new app>>> poser 8! :thumbsup:

and he is just trying to be funny :)

mustique
08-05-2009, 07:02 PM
Max, Maya and Softimage are all approximately 10 years old. The feature set, stability etc that they have are the result of TEN years of work. Given the current economical climate, what are the chances that Autodesk will pay God knows how many programmers for God knows how many years to write a new program when they have the three leading applications in the field already, partilularly when none of them are in any desparate need of a complete rewrite. And merging the code of three separate programs, one of which only ruins on Windows, is simply not doable.

IMO the 10 year old codebase is not sustainable for lets say another 5 years no mather what. Everything changes too fast. API's, programming languages, GPU's, CPU's... People even dare to speak about realtime raytracing these days...

So AD will be forced to develop at least one nextgen app sooner or later. Only thing is AD is terrible at developing nextgen anything as the toxik example has shown. So some kind of cg dev guru needs to step in and lead as Bill Buxton did back in the days.

cresshead
08-05-2009, 07:02 PM
Now tell me how useful your comment is supposed to be.

i'd say pretty much useless...but i raised a smile here with all the 'half empty' comments of late.

Cheesestraws
08-05-2009, 07:08 PM
Only thing is AD is terrible at developing nextgen anything as the toxik example has shown.

The problem with Toxik was never the advanced nextgen type stuff, it was more the lack of all the basics that were in other applications. And of course by the time it started to be more feature complete studios had started switching to Nuke.

DizzyJ
08-05-2009, 07:26 PM
Only thing is AD is terrible at developing nextgen anything as the toxik example has shown. So some kind of cg dev guru needs to step in and lead as Bill Buxton did back in the days.

I'm not sure why you think Toxik's problem was that it was a bad product. Every independent review I read (granted, not many) suggested that it is a robust competitor to Nuke and Fusion. If ADSK made a mistake in developing it, it was in being too aggressively cutting edge by tying it to a relational database that—I assume—made adoption by smaller studios difficult. The idea behind the original decision seems sound, and I've never heard that the execution was poor. The failure was one of misreading the larger market based on needs of a subsegment of the market. Or perhaps a market that wasn't ready to risk so much on one solution.

For ADSK to create a new all-around 3D application to replace Maya, Softimage and Max is a huge risk for them. They run a risk of misreading the marketplace again, while alienating upsetting their current user bases. Many Maya users don't want to deal with the Max way of doing things, and vice versa. For studios, discontinuing software that's solidly integrated into their pipelines gives every single competitor an opening to replace it, not just your new product. It might seem that developing three different packages simultaneously is wasteful, but the difficulty of meeting the needs of three different user groups with strong loyalties to existing packages may make it a better choice than trying to develop an über-package replacement.

mustique
08-05-2009, 07:27 PM
The problem with Toxik was never the advanced nextgen type stuff, it was more the lack of all the basics that were in other applications. And of course by the time it started to be more feature complete studios had started switching to Nuke.

Sure. But the bootom line is Nuke has been embraced as a nextgen app,
while toxik ended up bundled with maya and is discontinued as a standalone app.

And if toxik will really be integrated into maya in the future (which it better should),
I don't know what will be left of it as it is known today.

sentry66
08-05-2009, 07:34 PM
Max, Maya and Softimage are all approximately 10 years old. The feature set, stability etc that they have are the result of TEN years of work. Given the current economical climate, what are the chances that Autodesk will pay God knows how many programmers for God knows how many years to write a new program when they have the three leading applications in the field already, partilularly when none of them are in any desparate need of a complete rewrite. And merging the code of three separate programs, one of which only ruins on Windows, is simply not doable.


To me, it only makes sense for them to have a single powerful app because it would cost less to maintain and update 1 app instead of 3 that pretty much all do the same things.

10 years is still a pretty long time.
I'd be thrilled to have a modern 3D app that has the speed of something like Zbrush and the flexibility of modo

ThirdEye
08-05-2009, 07:37 PM
toxik is discontinued as a standalone app.

I wasn't aware of that, are you sure?

mustique
08-05-2009, 07:41 PM
I'm not sure why you think Toxik's problem was that it was a bad product. Every independent review I read (granted, not many) suggested that it is a robust competitor to Nuke and Fusion. If ADSK made a mistake in developing it, it was in being too aggressively cutting edge by tying it to a relational database that—I assume—made adoption by smaller studios difficult. The idea behind the original decision seems sound, and I've never heard that the execution was poor. The failure was one of misreading the larger market based on needs of a subsegment of the market. Or perhaps a market that wasn't ready to risk so much on one solution.

For ADSK to create a new all-around 3D application to replace Maya, Softimage and Max is a huge risk for them. They run a risk of misreading the marketplace again, while alienating upsetting their current user bases. Many Maya users don't want to deal with the Max way of doing things, and vice versa. For studios, discontinuing software that's solidly integrated into their pipelines gives every single competitor an opening to replace it, not just your new product. It might seem that developing three different packages simultaneously is wasteful, but the difficulty of meeting the needs of three different user groups with strong loyalties to existing packages may make it a better choice than trying to develop an über-package replacement.

I agree, there have been made many failures with toxik which resulted in wasted time of talented devs unfortunately. Again bottom line is toxik will undergo a renaisance and I hope this time it will eventually be of good use even for naysayers like me :)

And in regards to the the nextgen stuff... There are risks both ways. Let's wait and see.

mustique
08-05-2009, 07:44 PM
I wasn't aware of that, are you sure?

it's true

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=5561949&siteID=123112

ThirdEye
08-05-2009, 07:45 PM
it's true

http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?id=5561949&siteID=123112

You're right. If i bought it i'd be quite pissed off.

ThirdEye
08-05-2009, 07:46 PM
almost as useful the first comment was ;)

Originally Posted by Dimitree
Ultimately disappointing release in a row -> switches to another package :banghead:

Can we stop it? I asked him in the first place, second the first post was pretty much harmless, the second one could have started a flame. Let's go back to the topic.

cheebamonkey
08-05-2009, 07:46 PM
Now tell me how useful your comment is supposed to be.

almost as useful the first comment was ;)

Originally Posted by Dimitree
Ultimately disappointing release in a row -> switches to another package :banghead:

Cheesestraws
08-05-2009, 07:48 PM
To me, it only makes sense for them to have a single powerful app because it would cost less to maintain and update 1 app instead of 3 that pretty much all do the same things.

10 years is still a pretty long time.
I'd be thrilled to have a modern 3D app that has the speed of something like Zbrush and the flexibility of modo

It might cost less maintain just one application, but it certainly won't bring in the same amount of money. If Autodesk introduced a new application they would lose massive amounts of market share, people would switch to other applications.

Also if they did I would hope they went for something more flexible than Modo if they developed a new application, that would seem like a step backwards in my opinion.

cheebamonkey
08-05-2009, 07:49 PM
You're right. If i bought it i'd be quite pissed off.


It's quite a steal for people needing a compositing app to go with Maya. It's refreshing to see them repackaging as long as this isn't some temporary thing. I know how companies can think something is a great idea and immediately after change their minds, screwing their customers (and employees) over.

Time will tell if this new strategy pays off.


Regarding money for creating 1 powerful app versus maintaining 3; I'd imagine it's extremely expensive to write a 3D application as complex as those 3 from scratch. it's not as easy as saying "take these features from this one and those features from that one and create a new application". The way each of the 3 were coded is probably completely different, relying on different codebases which are in legacy now. I doubt there's any way to borrow code from each to make a new one, so starting a new app from scrach may end up costing more money?

sentry66
08-05-2009, 08:04 PM
It might cost less maintain just one application, but it certainly won't bring in the same amount of money. If Autodesk introduced a new application they would lose massive amounts of market share, people would switch to other applications.

Also if they did I would hope they went for something more flexible than Modo if they developed a new application, that would seem like a step backwards in my opinion.

Yeah I agree people would consider other apps because their maya/max/xsi world will be coming to an end, so they'll be forced to look at their options. But what would they switch to?

houdini
cinema 4d
lightwave's next 3d app

I'm having a hard time thinking of any other full featured widespread serious 3d app that's on the same playing field.

Seeing the combined effort of maya/max/xsi in a single app sounds appealing to me. I'd even dare to say how can it go wrong with the quality of those 3 good teams behind it, but we can always count on there being naysayers.

mustique
08-05-2009, 08:54 PM
It's quite a steal for people needing a compositing app to go with Maya. It's refreshing to see them repackaging as long as this isn't some temporary thing. I know how companies can think something is a great idea and immediately after change their minds, screwing their customers (and employees) over...

This is exactly what I am afraid of, and why I insist on a roadmap.

empi
08-05-2009, 09:05 PM
Unfortunately we cannot disclose the roadmap publicly for legal and accounting reasons.

This is discussed in more detail here

http://www.the-area.com/blogs/cory/...10_announcement (http://www.the-area.com/blogs/cory/maya_and_motionbuilder_2010_announcement)

maurice

luxwork
08-05-2009, 09:18 PM
This is exactly what I am afraid of, and why I insist on a roadmap.

I recall there was a literal roadmap printed to help you figure out the workflow back when wavefront acquired explore. I wish I had it, it was the type of thing that would make your jaw drop today.

Which reminds me - people seem to forget (or never knew) that maya was created from a combination of existing software and software already in development by 3 companies that were acqired by SGI. Maya started as a redesign of wavefront with features of explore and alias thrown in. I'll try to recall-
wavefront preview provided the channel box, and the non linear deformers
tdi ipr and render provided the hypergraph, ipr and most of the software rendering system
dynamation is the original particle system
alias power animater lives on in the nurbs tools, the multilister, the attribute editor, graph editor, lattices, sculpts, and the bone/ik system. Also the shelves, the toolbox and the manipulator (people find it a bit mind boggling that most of those old apps did not have a manipulator or even an undo)
some of the old apps were left for dead. Kinemation, model, 3design and the old wavefront renderer are gone. (no more goldenrod default shader)
and the original sgi Motif UI environment is why people complain about the ui so much, although I am quite fine with it. I don't notice the ui unless it gets in the way.

so realize that there is likely a new app coming, and it will be a mix of the current software. Speculate all you want, but I think that the legacy stuff from all of the various packages will be the first left out. And it will take a while, so deal with it. And when that comes out it will eventually get old again, and the cycle continues.

MD

andrewhake
08-05-2009, 09:42 PM
Unfortunately we cannot disclose the roadmap publicly for legal and accounting reasons.

This is discussed in more detail here

http://www.the-area.com/blogs/cory/...10_announcement (http://www.the-area.com/blogs/cory/maya_and_motionbuilder_2010_announcement)

maurice


Again, this is why Autodesk as a software company is just not that fantastic. Especially in this industry where the software in question is used by so many different people and companies at different levels.

I can understand being publicly traded, but it comes down to Autodesk to make that decision as a company.

And just a question, Are there actually any new updates or features within Maya itself for 2010? According to the provided "What's New" info, it doesn't look that way.

mustique
08-05-2009, 10:30 PM
Would the devs at AD be able to pull out an all new mighty app?
Yes I believe they can.

Would users be willing to learn the new software?
Looking at the maya bundle and new suites you'll never stop learning something new
either way will you?

Would the high price of this app be welcomed by users?
if I could sculpt&paint like in Mudbox and rig/skin/animate/render/comp with equally innovative tools all within one nonedestructive app, YES by all means.

Would users be ready to fund the nextgen app development like for LightwaveCore?
Count me in.

Would many developers lose their jobs once people migrate to the nextgen thing?
If they set an appropiate pricetag, nobody should lose anything. Also the old tools won't disapear so fast, so AD will need them.

Why not continue with everything as it is and sell dozens of apps?
Why not designing and selling the nextgen app as modules sharing the same core and UI logic just like the Fur - Live - nParticle - nCloth - fluid modules in Maya Unlimited. Only with the option to buy what you need. Thefoundry does the same with nuke.

Wouldn't people than stick to their old tools?
No problem either, continue selling old tools at a declining development pace. Offer sidegrading options. Nobody resists forever.

So what's AD waiting for?
Maybe they wait for 2012, maybe for some industry giant to pay attention to their product portfolio, or to their market. Maybe they wait for quantum computers or some garage boys leaving them in the dust with a revolutionary toolset. Maybe they wait for shareholders to learn their tools. Maybe the media&entertainment division is just for fun and its only us dump users who take it serious.. Who knows.

Imhotep397
08-05-2009, 11:16 PM
Max, Maya and Softimage are all approximately 10 years old. The feature set, stability etc that they have are the result of TEN years of work. Given the current economical climate, what are the chances that Autodesk will pay God knows how many programmers for God knows how many years to write a new program when they have the three leading applications in the field already, partilularly when none of them are in any desparate need of a complete rewrite. And merging the code of three separate programs, one of which only ruins on Windows, is simply not doable.

I have thought that in the past, but I'm not really sure anymore. Over the long term it will be far more expensive to maintain 3 completely separate codebases indefinitely. I think their ultimate strategy is not to merge the 3 apps into one, perse, but in fact to use Maya which runs natively on all three major OS platforms, use it as the core codebase and rebuild the features of the others into it. Once that's done I suspect they'll still maintain the three UIs and continue to sell the software separately. I think that was the objective with the whole "View Cube" "View Widget"...to begin building that unified method of programming for multiple applications and probably to begin to mentally condition the user to seeing similarities between the apps.