Max 6 NEW Features

[IMarshal]

ummm, you forgot a few main points DarkMantid:

New Icon
New Packaging
...etc...

weeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

[phil]

New Icon, New Packaging?!!!!!!!!
Where does it say that?

Man I'm excited now!!!!
:-)


ps.
remember reactor is/was in there too, xsi still doesn't have any rigid body dynamics. I don't think it's as clear cut as "max is crap maya & xsi rule the world".

[Aldaryn]

Originally posted by DarkMantid

1/ Discreet have 2 - 3 people working on the Max code base.


Well, it seems so, but they've definately got more than a thousend people working on advertisement, and was working really hard on: "How to fill a whole page with the "improvements" on nothing? So think, think, think, we're cartainly can pull something up from the code! Can't we?" - marketing branch.

Hehe... What should we do? Wait for MAX 7? Meanwhile, download the freeware stuff for MAX 5, or 6 that will be integrated fully, and in a professional manner into the future MAX 7...

No hard on discreet, this was supposed to be a bit ironic. But they've got to do better than this... :( Like the "integrated Deep Paint engine" goosip. I'm sad it was only a goosip.
And yes, they've got another few prgrammers retrained to create front end graph, UI layout, and some cool "logos", like MAX 6 has one, it don't even looks like the one Maya got... no sir, oh no..

By the way, no info mentiones the base code of MAX, like stability... I had a lots of cute crashes along with MAX 5...

- A.

[Joel Hooks]

:shrug:

The new box comes with the subscription anyway, so sounds good to me. As long as Max keeps on keeping my lights on and my kids fed I am a happy camper ;)

[indianBoy]

i really dont understand why is everyone criticizing discreet, after all the main aim of a designer is to produce A+ images and animation from any application, and tho i am no pro i have seen equally good work ( if not better ) being produced in 3d studio as in XSI etc...after all in the end its the artist that drives the app...

[chrom]

DarkMantid about mental ray you are wrong.I have a friend that is a beta tester of 6 and its show me the new features.The integration of MR is perfect.Is a better fast then MR in maya.

but for other things i agree with you.Everething in this new release is about the number "6".To be one step before Maya but with 5% new features.


But I'm a maxer and I love discreet:)
And i'm happy with the new version.
:buttrock:

[DarkMantid]

Its comforts me to see that there are some people out there as frustrated as I am about Discreet and its attutude towards Max development ..

Even these rumors .. of Deep paint integration .. further concrete my point that they have a very small development team who basically incorperates 3rd party code into the shaky framework that is Max.

I believe this approach to software development has lead to max's less that robust nature.

What next ? Shag Fur/Hair or Shave and haircut for Max 7 ?


The plugin framework that we call 3dsMax is getting pretty shakey and top heavy with years all the poorly intergrated 3rd party code.

[Genesis]

Indianboy, if you were to fork out cash for a car would you expect it to drive well without crashing randomly, or stopping for no reason?

You should expect the same from software, if it says it should do something it should do it, not pretend to do it. I work in max every day, and produce good stuff with it. However in doing this why should there be so much pain, and wasted time on crashes and setting up features that don't work.

I agree, Max 6 seems like yet another group of plugins sticky taped to the side of max in an effort to say "look what we have!"

Discreet should stop trying to have every feature every other program has and start making it solid to work on, and ensure everything in there works well. Also Discreet admitting when they have faults and bugs would be good too.

This being said, what is in this version could have easily been Max 5.5, and would have been for most other programs. I am not impressed at all.

[holosynthetic]

Originally posted by Genesis
Indianboy, if you were to fork out cash for a car would you expect it to drive well without crashing randomly, or stopping for no reason?


cars have a few minute test drive before buying...max has a 30 day trial version..if you bought max hopefully you tryed it first to like it enough to buy it...no?

[drunkirishmic]

they actually put metaballs in!? holy crap!

indianboy: its not about the art, thats not the point of the thread, its about getting a POS for 4 grand.

anyways, discreet will get the point sooner or later or go the way of mirai. from what i understand is a lot of houses r moving to maya or xsi. when it comes to modelling, all apps pretty much hav the same to offer. no go to animation, maya is way better than max, and more stable, and xsi is even better. then u hav dynamics, fur, fluids, etc. maya has most already there and somewhat easy to use. max has crap that they didnt even create. they r like the M$ of 3d apps. the only thing max has that gives it an edge is particle flow, brazil, and vray.

i feel ur pain dude, we all do:banghead:

[twilight]

I've worked in 3dsmax for 8 years (well, started in 3ds v.1 in DOS) and a couple of years ago i "switched" to Cinema 4D.
I still use 3dsmax for some ocasional work, but C4D is used 95% of the time.
I'm not saying C4D is better than 3dsmax, don't get me wrong, even because there's still a lot to be done in C4D for it to become a major 3D package. Oh, and i'm not a mac geek, i use a pc! :)
But there are some features that really impressed me like stability, openGL support, fast workflow, etc...
But the thing i liked most about C4D was the company's (Maxon) attitude. They really listen to their users and each upgrade is a real improvement to the program. Not to mention that they upgrade almost once a year with some point releases along the way.
I remember a time when discreet (kinetix? autodesk?) would listen to us users. What has happened? Is discreet more interested in the high-end post-production apps? Is 3dsmax the "3D toy" of their post-production suite?
If it is, maybe autodesk should put 3dsmax in the hands of someone who really cares about 3D.
We are losing a great program. Don't let this happen.

Cheers!

[halo]

i think its called sitting on their laurels....discreet are exploiting an established workflow pipeline that exists

[SuperMax]

The announcement of Max6 hasnt actually put the world on fire from what i can tell from browsing around the net. Even CGtalk didnt announce it on the front page.
I remember Max5 had a bigger impact when it first came out.

Maybe when they actually release to the rest of us, well see some ads and demo videos of what it can actually do.

Coz right now it feels that Discreet just quietly whispered to the world that max6 is out. Sssssshhhhhhhhh keep your voices down when talking about max6 :shame:

[allenlikewo]

If some of you hate max and discreet so much then why are you hanging out in the max forum???

[Xilica]

haha i'm most excited about the new icon

serious too btw!! :beer:

[ToddD]

Every app has problems:shrug: I always wish for better nurbs implementation, it never comes. But the grass always looks greener somewhere else. I often read about the "terrible" max booleans(agreed), I thought well maya or lightwave users must not experience the same issues, WRONG! The other day I decided to search the forums for lightwave and maya, and the search term "nurbs", you know what I found, the same gripes and issues max users complain about are present in both. I'm sure there are stability issues in both. I too am disappointed in this update(except for MR), but for me the workflow is best with max, we are just more aware of its shortcomings because we use it, if we used maya we would probably have the same discussion with the name maya substituted for max:shrug:

[gandhics]

MAX 6 radiosity render engine is improved as good as VIZ render engine.

You have good RADIOSITY renderer.

What 3d program has radiosity renderer? Mental Ray is not a radiosity renderer.

Max add metaball. is it bad thing? Maya doesn't have metalball yet.

Max buy reactor code from Havok. So what? I dont care who develop it.

nah.....

[twilight]

You gotta be kidding!

Lightwave has radiosity, Cinema 4D has radiosity, even FormZ has radiosity!

[DarkMantid]

I definately conceede that every app has its problems ,,, this thread is only partially about stability and features ... its more about the long history of discreet's cheap and nasty methodology to max's development .. most bugs are not being admitted to (especially the case with characterstudio ).. they dont take an open stance on the applications development .. or ( it seems) to allow users to really help push it into an "ahead of the rest" 3d application.

[gandhics]

Oh.. Sorry I forgot LW!

So.. how about LW radiosity? is it good?

Cinema4D provide radiosity as kinds of plugin.

Anyway.. u can have good production-proven radiosity render engine. isn't it good?

[twilight]

Cinema4D provide radiosity as kinds of plugin.


Completely wrong! Cinema 4D's radiosity is built-in and part of the rendering engine since version 7.
As a matter of fact it's one of the fastest radiosity engines around and a pretty fast raytracer as well!

There's no harm in trying something new. Why don't you give it a spin and see for yourself?
go to www.maxon.net and download the demo.
You may think it's a bit confusing to get into radiosity in a different package... well, it's as simple as going to render options and turn radiosity on. ops, i forgot the last step: hit render!
It's really this simple.

Don't take this as an attempt to change your mind. I'd love to see 3dsmax on a higher level and i still love to use it.
But i think discreet is taking users for granted!
All the times i see a flamed thread about this i think of all the mac hype! Discreet is becoming a hype as well... everybody uses it, it must be good!
Or a better argument i've heard lately: listen mate, C4D costs U$ 750 and 3dsmax costs U$4.000! There's no comparison!
Well, how about raising the price to U$10.000????? That would make it better than maya!!!

Don't get me wrong, i'm not against 3dsmax i'm really not!
I'm against all kind of "dictatorship" and blind faith! If discreet wants me to pay U$4.000 for a piece of software it better worth it!

[gandhics]

I went Maxon web site.

They sell radiosity as advance render module at $495.

Cinama4D is $595.

I think that module thing is kinds of plugin like as character studio.

There are several module such as Shave and Haircut, Thinking Particle, Body Paint...

Am I wrong?

[thorn3d]

In the way that really counts - yes, you are wrong in comparing C4D's render module to Character Studio. Here's why:

Character Studio isn't written by discreet. It's written by a 3rd party and marketed/sold by discreet as a discreet product. CS is not FULLY integrated into max; for example, it uses it's own workspace for things like function curves. That's just one example.

The C4D render module isn't a bolt-on system which was coded elsewhere, nor does it only work in some situations. It was written to link directly to the render engine core, and as such is fully aware of everything else going on in the application. The GI and Caustic features are written in tandem with the rest of the application, by the same coders that work on the raytracer.

To look at it another way - in version 7, the advanced render module was sold completely in the list price. In other words, you bought v7, and there it was. The reason it's now sold as a separate module is due to customers wanting more flexibility in purchasing, not because it's a 3rd party plugin that is coded separately from the application.

thorn

[xynaria]

I think the point about Maxons attitude is a very very valid one in all areas, and one that appears to have paid off for Maxon. When Discreet released Plasma for instance, it could have taken a similar line with Max by releasing it as a stripped down Max for those that didn't want the *Nurbs* etc but didn't and didn't even allow them to talk properly to each other so it came over as much as anything as milking the code for all it was worth. When you do visit other apps forums you do get some sense of where they might be going and what they are doing but Discreet advertantly or inadvertantly end up fostering rumour after rumour and their asking for posts to be removed which mention these rumours only add to that not detract from it. Visit Splutterfish for example and you get a roadmap for Brazil, where it might be going and an idea how it is coming along......does this harm anyone.. I'd argue it just gets people more involved and excited about where it might be going. Rumours have been rife about the supposed Max rewrite since before R4 but no solid indication has actually been shown. If it is and that is actually admitted how would that harm Max......it would make people actually think that issues might just be being attended to and that brighter days were ahead. Instead many start looking towards other apps...especailly when what might be seen as it's main competitor is now at base less than two thirds of the price depending on where you live....... that is in Discreets own interests..er how?????? Whilst integration of MR may well prove to be good, it's possibly not going to be so good for those developers that have gone out on a limb to provide rendering solutions for Max....... meanwhile to all intents and purposes it takes one of CG Talks own scripters to come up with a usable cut tool!!!!!!!!!!!! Two updates that focus on rendering solutions to the point of overkill whilst not showing signs of development in other key areas of concern is something they shouldn't open up about and clarify????? :surprised

[TRick]

Originally posted by gandhics
Oh.. Sorry I forgot LW!

So.. how about LW radiosity? is it good?

Cinema4D provide radiosity as kinds of plugin.

Anyway.. u can have good production-proven radiosity render engine. isn't it good?

The HARDEST proof of Discreet being a REAL commercial company: they ATE Lightscape...put HALF the functionality in MAX and VIZ to have a competitive product...and did NOT care about the other half (PROGRESSIVE REFINEMENT !!!). For me this is very hard to forgive since LS was (and still IS) the fastest and best radisity solution on the planet: NOT VRAY, NOT BRAZIL, NOT FINALRENDER, NOT MR, NOT C4D, NOT LW....well maybe Japanese SHADE. I can render very large scenes under 3 min/frame (on todays single proc.machines) I can take the scenes apart, put different solutions on them and afterwards at will sew them back together again: try this in MAX and you're crippled !!! It's even harder to forgive instead of putting the WHOLE functionality of LS in MAX6, they are putting MR in it.

Well: I think a lot of users will be excited about MAX6, but given my history with 3dStudio DOS, MAX 1,2&3, Lightscape 2&3 in my area I would be more competitive/faster with 3dStudio R4 and Lightscape 3.2 then with MAX6. On the other hand...I'm ALWAYS in for a surprise !!!

[RuneV]

I agree with gandhics: "I dont care who develop it."

If max is that bad as some of you say then;
I've seen just as good images produced in max as maya, lw etc. Does that mean that the max users are some fantastic artists that can do with a crappy prog what others can with a "good" software?
:beer: sheers

[El_Schubi]

concerning MR: as far as i know, MR has a "per cpu" licence. one was always allowed to use max for network rendering on an unlimited or almost unlimited amount of rendernodes. does this change with the integration of MR? or will i be allowed to use MR also on an unlimited amount of cpus?
i always use multi-processor workstations do i have to deactivate one cpu for rendering?

i do not really plan to use MR for my renderings as i am a finalrender-"fan", but as MR is a said to be a more professional renderer than FR i want to compare it for myself. but i don't want to take part in this "take care of how many cpus you use with our renderer" - game, that do really suck!

[LFShade]

Max 6 feels like Max 5.5. There are some great new features in there that really should have been great old features. In a sense, though, it makes me happy to see these advancements, however small they seem to be. The improvement to the schematic view (and what an improvement it is!), for instance, will make using Max in real production a lot less of a hassle. For those who do game work, the new vertex color interface (that's really all it is - an improved interface to an existing tool) will undoubtedly enhance the speed and quality of game production. They finally got MR integration right, and it's fast and easy to use. You really shouldn't underestimate the workflow improvement in being able to save preset render settings, so try to reserve judgement on that feature until you've had a chance to put it to use. Another strong production-enhancing feature of 6 is that the renderer can now be controlled from the system command line (according to one of the demo artists I spoke to at SIGGRAPH). It may not seem like such a large feature, but I'm sure the render wranglers out there will understand the importance of being able to manage rendering using shell scripting. Particle Flow is particles done the way they always should have been done. We can righteously gripe that it's about damn time we had good particles; they may be late but at least we've got 'em!

Like I said before - it feels more like it should be tagged Max 5.5. Some of this stuff really ought to be a free download for licensed users. And Discreet may continue to lose some customers to Maya over the pricing issue. But the reality is, studios that make the switch are likely to find that they're really just ditching an old set of Max production hassles for a whole new set of Maya ones. And starting with R5 Discreet has at least shown that they are willing to start playing the game of catch-up. I have my problems with the state of the application, but I'm really looking forward to seeing how things go over the next couple of years!

RH

[Rurouni]

straight from discreet website

"A license of one of the world's most advanced film-quality renderers, mental ray 3.2 is now fully integrated into the 3ds max 6 software program. With up to two processors supported per license, shaders from Lume Tools, and substantial integration into the Material Editor, the power of mental ray 3.2 rendering is now available for all 3ds max artists, with an easy-to-approach workflow making mental ray easier to harness."

[hugo.m]

Correct me if I'm wrong but:

3D Max = 5 000$/liscence
XSI = 20 000$/liscence

Obviosly it's not the best software but comparing it to XSI, it's worthy of recognition. It deserves what it has achieved and much more. No matter what software you use, it will always have it's share of problems. Good thing most of us will never have to buy these liscenses.

[credmond]

I think this is the "bite the bullet" release for Max.

I think they did the right thing to go light on throwing in features and to focus on stability. If Max 6 ships with far fewer bugs and lots of stability and performance I am sure people will be very pleased in the long run. Max's stability is currently its single greatest problem.

I am sure customers think bugs should be handled free of charge in a point release but going on a massive and deep bug hunt can be an enormous expenditure of development resources worthy of a full upgrade.

Some of you might recall that the upgrade from Maya 3 to Maya 4 was a stability release. Even though customers complained about the upgrade not having enough features, the Maya customer base has benefited from much fewer bugs. (Interestingly, with Maya 5 and their new pricing and development strategy of targeting Maya for the masses, lots of bugs crept into the Maya 5 upgrade.)

Also, it is my hunch and speculation that the next-gen Max is just around the corner and that their development is currently split between patching up the old Max core for what I think is the last version of Max in its current incarnation and focusing resources on the development of the new core. In fact I think some of these Max 6 features are "dribbling down" from the next-gen development.

So, right now with just the feature announcement of Max 6 it is looking a lot underpacked but maybe when it launches its stability and performance will more than make up for it.

[IMarshal]

I think I missed something here.

Where did Discreet say they went on a massive bug hunt (as they should have done quite a few versions ago) for v6?

credmond is correct in stating that bug-hunts on a large project such as Max require a considerable amount of resources. That's all I do is software architecture/development (I feel like I work just to support my 3d habit though :rolleyes: ). Some 40% of development, I always forget the number, is spent debugging. Frankly, no matter how complex, there is room for argument that someone possibly dropped the ball on QA and now we are paying the price. Debug/QA is supposed to be part of the development cycle, not an afterthought.

Being somewhat cynical, here's what I see. Discreet has introduced this subscription program to pre-fund development of features for the next release. They tried this a few years ago with some VIP program - it was dropped and people never saw much from it (at least I sure didn't).

I further agree that a lot of the features in the new Max 6 release are pretty much plugins that, for the most part, were simply refined.

Don't get me wrong, I like Max 5. I really think it is slick. But, like all 3d applications it has it's share of problems. But, what seems mystifying, is where the company decides some of these features are so important? I don't believe I personally know what is important for everyone. But my impression is that neither does Discreet - they are supposed to poll the users, user groups, a number of houses (not just Sega) for what's important. My *impression* (and we all know that can be wrong) is they just decided what's good for us - nice. I had my Dad for that when I was 6 years old :) I dont need that now thank you.

Again, every program has its own problems. The grass is *not* always greener on the other side of the fence. However, to bury your head in the sand and not become aware of how your favorite apps suffers so much when compared to others in the market is simply naive. For instance, when will Discreet bring their Nurbs support, or lack thereof, up to par with other packages such as Maya?

-IMarsal

[drunkirishmic]

wow, usually in this type of thread there is some support for discreet. but there isnt any. i think discreet is finally pissin people off. they r pushing that line. hey maybe when they lose a big chunk of their user base, we might see a decent app emerge.

[credmond]

"I think that you hit the nail on the head. It has been my intention from the beginning of 3ds max 6 to focus a lot of our energies on fixing pre-existing bugs and not just to focus on our existing tools. Our move to vc7 has also helped make this happen as any time one ports in this manner it brings bugs to the surface (which were fixed). I am confident that 3ds max 6.0 will meet your stability needs.

Also, note that much of the development in 3ds max 6 is focused on making existing features far better. We wanted to take what was already there but going under utilized and making them something that you could count on every day.

Dan Prochazka
product manager 3ds max
discreet"

. . . clipped from the discreet support forums

[DarkMantid]

Originally posted by credmond
"I think that you hit the nail on the head. It has been my intention from the beginning of 3ds max 6 to focus a lot of our energies on fixing pre-existing bugs and not just to focus on our existing tools. Our move to vc7 has also helped make this happen as any time one ports in this manner it brings bugs to the surface (which were fixed). I am confident that 3ds max 6.0 will meet your stability needs.

Also, note that much of the development in 3ds max 6 is focused on making existing features far better. We wanted to take what was already there but going under utilized and making them something that you could count on every day.

Dan Prochazka
product manager 3ds max
discreet"


Ok So conveniently now we have talk of this release being all about stability and bug hunting not new features .. Why is this focus hidden. Why isnt it mentioned once in your techical specifications sheet or on your website regarding the Max6 release???

And even if this IS the focus ,why on earth should we have to pay out our hard earned money for the bug fixes / stability of poorly implimented features from the last few releases of max?

Surely stability issues should be at least attempted to be resolved as patches for max 5.x

So where is Max 5.2 patch.. incorperating some of these fixes that appear to be rushed into max 6 ?

I think as investors in Discreet's product , we entitled to a far more support and responsibilty for the existing release of max 5.

I dont quite understand why we should have to pay a subscription to get our hands on fixes for your previous poor Quality assurance.

End rant :)

[Chico]

>> I am sure customers think bugs should be handled free of charge in a point release but going on a massive and deep bug hunt can be an enormous expenditure of development resources worthy of a full upgrade.<<

Well Newtek did it with 7.5, it wa a free upgrade and they made it know that 500 bugs were squashed. I understand that this takes time (I can't remeber the size of their team but it was big) and people to do these things but they have been a long time coming and you shouldn't need to pay for repairs to a faulty product.

That said I max 6 is 99% stable (hell I settle for 20%) then it may well have my money just to ease my poor heart.

>>I think as investors in Discreet's product ...<<

Well I might point out that Autodesk is a publicly listed company and has many other types of investors....you (and I sadly) are no where near the top of their list. Well thats how it feels.

[dvornik]

Would command-line render work with things like Muster and Smedge?

As for discreet - it's one of the worst software companies I've ever seen as far as support and customer relations go. I agree they are losing their customer base and they deserve it.

[xynaria]

When a company makes a point about a new logo and packaging amongst it's updates then you gotta start thinking... 'I'm outta here', doubly so when it's previous upgrade was widely seen as not much better than pointless to most, and so those that didn't bother to upgrade, if they want R6 have to pay most of the cost for a seat of Maya to do so. The fuss they made about Siggraph, I doubt I was alone in thinking that a new PRODUCT was going to be announced and to have done so would have cleared the air for many.. it wasn't and so is still a rumour that may or may not be with any basis in fact, nor any imaginable timescale.
A lot of adverts at the agencies I see are now asking for Maya experience where they used to ask for Max.. this has been put down to being mainly start ups... could be .. after all 5-10 seats at $3,500 and 5-10 seats at $1,999 makes quite a difference plus if you are in Europe that differential is far greater to the point of almost being double... but more intrinsically.. Maya has the general impression of being more responsive.. though whether that turns out to be reality remains to be seen. The thing is.. these things become cyclical........Max was bought by more.. partly on price.. but partly on user base.. and good learning base....obviously you are going to staff easier with an app that is more widely used .. Something that what was formerly A|W really picked up on. The ball is in Discreets court but it does look like it's bouncing through the gate.

[Aaron Moore]

I say drop the current code base... and start over. They are locked into MFC's rigid doc view style and they really need to take a fresh new approach to put focus on features rather then fixing bugs that are caused in part by MFC.

They really should look at running an OS independent code base with apple releasing the dual 2ghz G5.

I'd like to have a few render machines there.

As for MR ... what use is it withought network rendering.... I always use a second machine to dump a render onto because I don't want to wait there while my primary machine crunches numbers...

and seeing as 2 or the 3 machines that I have in my room (not to mention the others) are dual cpu... i don't think I'll be using MR.

[vclaes]

we wanted to make a film with max (25.000.000€) . With their attitude of salesman of lollipop we left on XSI. We had
programmers of softimages on the production: to improve the software! A lot of help.an attitude of partner!!!
discreet said: we have the best rendering in the world with max
5!!!!! nothing like another assistance! they do not have any more the foot on ground!
MAX 5 or how to work with bugs full the software!!!!
to already make a film it is very difficult but if in more it is
necessary to have a software not stable and not support in the 24hours;then you died!

In Europe there is no more support with an office and a qualified
person. I speak for Belgium!!!! what want to say: more no respect of the customer!The minimum is to inform their customer on the future of the software! and not only days out of the software! or not only with a forum or a wishlist on the net!!!!

we are worried for the moment to do this or that....

but the problem as a freelance it is the price of the software. also not I would have already left towards XSI. But if you have a good solution! I listen with attention!
I saw that I formed part of the old men of the 3d (more than 14 years of activity in the 3d industry!)
and frankly I have some enough of the attitude of the great group like discreet: only money, money any price has!


I asked to be discreet center: since one should not be an instructor to approve! it should be known that there are discreet center without approved
instructor (they is also scandalous). Ever have answer but the
discreet center without instructor always exists!!!!AND the customers are stolen!!!
as long as that brings back money........!

dissatisfaction:banghead:

[vclaes]

They forget a very important thing: a bug software kill the software. kill the market! You work and OUps! of the problems caused by bugs!!!
your customer do not have the product has time and not only you are taken for an idiot and in more it do not want any more 3d.

It is not rare! the solution: to have 5 programmers houses!

loads of cretins !

[Steve Green]

I may be wrong, but I think the examples of 'new logo, new marketing, 100 bugfixes' etc. were from literature for dealers rather than end users.

- Steve

[vclaes]

you are right completely. we purchase a software, it must function or it is swindle! but it became a practice which all the "3d max world" accepts ( or theworld of high technologies only?) . I **** you up the ass with your agreement! and in more you must say thank you! and in more it is you who must use shit to earn your living!it should be believed that the world likes this!
In more they do not dare same step to announce the bugs, it would benecessary to add 1/3 of documentation!



I will like to still be able to hear my farts:applause:

[credmond]

Let's assume for the sake of argument, that when Max 6 ships it is as solid as a rock with nothing but minor bugs. Crashes once a leapyear.

Would you be pleased with what you got, keeping in mind the short new feature list?

I would be.

[Murf_Miser]

Yep, as long as it's stable i would be happy. As mentioned before, maybe they could realease a 5.2 with all the bug fixes... :rolleyes:

[Xilica]

i dont know if this ha been brought up

but will 3ds max 6 have HDRI built in without a plug-in?

or do you think future versions will have it?

[lukx]

=( after reading all these posts I realy don't know what to think. I know 3d s max since 3d studio, plaing with it since max 4 and using it for real since 5 and now...after I know it quite good it looks like I was just wasting time learing it. I was trying Maya and Lightwave but just don't like them (understand their workflow or whatever) or maybe I should learn them cause max doesn't have so grate future as they have. Just tell me to start learning Maya or lightwave before it's not to late I'm 23 =). And yes I'm serious! I just want to find job in the future so give me any advice.

[LFShade]

As to whether Max6 will have HDRI without a plugin: yes and no. You won't have to worry about going out and downloading anything extra, but all Discreet did was license and wrap Splutterfish's HDRI plugin into the base package.

RH

[Chico]

lukx, I'm with you.
I've been using max since Max 1 (I misse d the DOS era), and full time since Max 3. Not looking foward to shifting to Maya or whatever, mainly cause I'm so embedded in Max's workflow. Max does have one of the best, slickest workflows I have come across. The hate side in this 'love / hate' relationship is really starting to win these days :L

...solid as a rock with nothing but minor bugs.
Crashes once a leapyear. Would you be pleased with what you got...

Yes definatly, as I mentioned earlier, I'd happily buy it. Who cares about all the new features. Teres not a hell of a lot the benifits the TV/Film industry anyway.

[ToddD]

In regards to HDRi max had the ability to recognize hdr images without a plug-in in version 5, you are able to use a floating point tiff without the use of any kind of importer, although you do need hdrshop to convert the images to floating point tiff. Of course that was for use with the now obsolete lighttracer;)

[lragno]

for those that may not be aware of it:


http://www.discreet.com/support/max/bug_reporting.html

[dmak]

My god.. what is going on here? I don't know if you guys have noticed, but max ACTUALLY has some really cool and useful new features. NOT TO MENTION THAT IT ALREADY KICKS ASS.

Now, I'm not going to kid anyone and say that Max doesn't have flaws. But what app out there doesn't? Speculation on how much time the coders spent is just rediculous. If you don't like max, well go find yourself another application, and complain on their forums about that software.

Max is just as capable as the other major applications out there, in some respects more capable and in others a little less. If you don't think so, learn another application, say maya, and you'll find the feature set very comparable. The workflow is completely different, but you can achieve similar results in both apps with similar tools.

Hope you don't spend to much time learning a new app and not bieng productive. My guess is that most of you will get the new version of max anyways, and you all probably complain with every revision of max.

dan
www.3dimplant.com

[Ryan-B]

Originally posted by dmak
My god.. what is going on here? I don't know if you guys have noticed, but max ACTUALLY has some really cool and useful new features. NOT TO MENTION THAT IT ALREADY KICKS ASS.

Now, I'm not going to kid anyone and say that Max doesn't have flaws. But what app out there doesn't? Speculation on how much time the coders spent is just rediculous. If you don't like max, well go find yourself another application, and complain on their forums about that software.

Max is just as capable as the other major applications out there, in some respects more capable and in others a little less. If you don't think so, learn another application, say maya, and you'll find the feature set very comparable. The workflow is completely different, but you can achieve similar results in both apps with similar tools.

Hope you don't spend to much time learning a new app and not bieng productive. My guess is that most of you will get the new version of max anyways, and you all probably complain with every revision of max.

dan
www.3dimplant.com

Why do you feel the need to protect Discreet from criticism?

[dmak]

It's not a need to protect discreet, it's a matter of listening to the complaints out there. You guys sound like you're looking for an application that you plug into your head. The fact is that MAX is a good piece of software that is as capable as everything else out there.

I as well have my critism of certain aspects of max, but overall I feel it's one of the three top apps on the market. When I look at the previous crits on the new features list I feel as though people are jumping the gun. Yes alot of whats in max 6 are plugins that have been integrated, what release of max has not integrated plugins? Thats been the nature of Max for a long time. That is why max has a big third party community.

The slow process of evolving the software I think has alot more to do with the corporate environment. Why make a car that won't break when you can make alot more money fixing (or upgrading) it? Thats not a discreet or Avid or Alias philosophy.. it's a Business philosophy. Take a look at microsoft.

Having that said, compare the features in max to any other application out there and you'll find it's extremely similar at it's pricepoint. I can tell you, I will enjoy the new features quite a bit.

[holosynthetic]

people defending their favorite program such as max makes sence, after all, after paying $3500+ for a program you use almost every day it feels like its a part of you..kinda like religion to some people..and last I checked people don't like when you call their religion stupid :)

[IMarshal]

dmak, that's ridiculous. The discussions of the Max 6 upgrade have been lively because people DO care; they've invested time and money in the product. It's in everyone's interest to see the product improve over time and at least keep up with it's peers.

I'd find this community to be a congregation of clones if they all just sat by saying "long live Discreet", "all hail Max". Give me a break.

Part of improving a product/service is understanding your current flaws.

It's an opinion for you, or myself, to say it's the best 3d app out there. But that has *nothing* to do with the upgrade. The upgrade feature-set stands on it's own. Period.

I've not heard people say Max is some low-level piss-poor application. I've heard people say that the upgrade feature-set is thing - very thin. Nothing is wrong with that. And frankly, I totally agree the upgrade is thin. It seems to me that the majority of the new features have been external plug-ins brought in to the system. No, there is nothing wrong with doing this; but I think it's entirely different when the vast majority of the product is delivered in this manner - that's entirely different.

I own two 3d products of which neither I've had enough time to learn. I am just now starting to get into actually learning them. I know I will upgrade one of the two - not sure which yet. But my money is just as good as any other user's here. I could see people complaining about negative comments if they were simply slamming a product/company maliciously; I have yet to see that occur.

Just my 2 cents :)

[dmak]

I guess I wasn't very clear with my point.. I do rant alot :) My main argument is about the upgrade. The quality of the features in this upgrade as far as I have seen are comparable to Maya's last upgrade, alot better than Lightwaves upgrade announcement (which I can't really tell if it's an actual upgrade or rather a re-release).

The updates are extremely useful and make the software alot more robust as a standalone app than it was before. Particle Flow gives us event driven particles, 100 times better than the old particle systems. Realtime viewport shaders will reduce the render time for a lot of things. Mental Ray will give us the ability to render radiosity, caustics, global illumination, subsurface scattering, all built in. The other features look useful as well and now I won't have to buy them as seperate plugins or search for them on the net.

I never said that opinions don't matter, and that we shouldn't express them. Hence, I am expressing mine. Also, please don't misinterperate my opinions to be one of a mindless clone. As I have stated I have my issues with Max as well, it's by no means a perfect product. However to me it is one of the best available products on the market.

[yoni-cohen]

the price of an upgrade is fair (the new features worth it - Pflow)
give it 3 days f work and buy the thing.
or work another week and switch to maya but please stop talking about the developers like that, use the right channels to get your info to discreet and don't let your mind drift away and hurt those who worked so hard for it.

I shell upgrade!

please stop this and wait for a more informative spec then discuss it

[IMarshal]

I agree with you dmak, there are improvements in the product but... well, I won't rehash it. But I do understand your point.

But, I do have a question now for everyone. dmak touched on it when he mentioned mental ray giving us the ability to do raydiosity, caustics, etc.

Doesn't the current version of Max (v5) give those features? The program included two new rendering modes, I hope I have this right, one was physically accurate lighting and the other is not.

So, now they add MentalRay. If MR is so great for well... it seems to me the same things as the current feature-set; Why is it so good? Isn't that overlap?

Why would I want to use MR over the existing raydiosity and (damn I cant remember it's name) non-physically accurate lighting (ugh) lighting system? What are the pros/cons to MR?

Is it faster/slower? Is the image quality better? Does it render everything the others provide (I'm assuming they render everything) such as volumetrics, particles, refraction, translucency, etc?

Thanks.

[lukx]

two rendering modes in max are :
"Radiosity- is rendering technology that realistically simulates the way in which light interacts in an environment."
and
"The Light Tracer- provides soft-edged shadows and color bleeding for brightly-lit scenes such as outdoor scenes. Unlike radiosity, the Light Tracer does not attempt to create a physically accurate model, and can be easier to set up.

And as far as I know max doesn't have caustic.

[Bobo]

Originally posted by IMarshal
I agree with you dmak, there are improvements in the product but... well, I won't rehash it. But I do understand your point.

But, I do have a question now for everyone. dmak touched on it when he mentioned mental ray giving us the ability to do raydiosity, caustics, etc.

Doesn't the current version of Max (v5) give those features? The program included two new rendering modes, I hope I have this right, one was physically accurate lighting and the other is not.

So, now they add MentalRay. If MR is so great for well... it seems to me the same things as the current feature-set; Why is it so good? Isn't that overlap?

Why would I want to use MR over the existing raydiosity and (damn I cant remember it's name) non-physically accurate lighting (ugh) lighting system? What are the pros/cons to MR?

Is it faster/slower? Is the image quality better? Does it render everything the others provide (I'm assuming they render everything) such as volumetrics, particles, refraction, translucency, etc?

Thanks.


Here is a bit of info about mental ray.

mental Images was established in 1986 which means they have longer experience with rendering than the whole history of 3D Studio.

mental ray was the first renderer to include Global Illumination - they just hired the guy who wrote the first papers on the topic:
http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~henrik/
Since Max 5 does not support caustics, you always needed a 3rd party renderer such as Brazil r/s, finalRender or VRay. Now caustics will come out of the box.

mental ray shipped with the Softimage 3D Extreme package for many years, and is currently part of XSI and Maya. This means that if a company has already purchased network rendering nodes of mental ray to use with the above products, a Max installation could render on the same network!

mental ray can run as stand-alone renderer on about any OS you could imagine - Windows, Linux, OS-X, IRIX. AIX, HPUX. SunOS etc. The dream of a Max renderfarm using Linux is a step closer.
The drawback is that you have to purchase stand-alone licenses, Max gives you just one "interactive" embedded license. Other than with XSI and Maya, Max will be able to render animation frames on multiple machines with legal idle Max 6 licenses installed thanks to Backburner.

mental ray is fully programmable - not as easily as RenderMan, but much better than what was possible before. It ships with many advanced shaders for natural phenomena etc.

The development of the mental ray translator for Max started around 1997. The first version of the translator shipped in summer 2000. That version supported mr 2.1 and only the basic materials and maps in Max.
The new one in Max 6 supports mr 3.2 and can build a UI for a mental ray shader and display it in the Material Editor. (I am changing TreeMatoGraph to support these, too).
Other than in XSI where shaders had to be connected to get even the simplest material description, Max lets you use its standard materials and mix them with mental ray shaders at will or go hardcore and use mental ray shaders only - whatever you like. Max 6 will do alot of work behind the scene to make your life easier if you are new to mental ray, but still let you tweak any parameter if you are an experienced user.

The speed of mental ray (just like with Brazil) depends alot on the rendering settings. In XSI, materials are being previewed directly in the viewport because mental ray can shade almost in realtime with the correct settings.
People had prejustices based on the older Max mr connection - one could read that mental ray is slow on about any forum speculating about the potential inclusion of the renderer in Max 6.
You should have seen the reaction of the crowd at the Evolve Siggraph event where the demo guy hit render and got the scene with glass material and caustics in 12 seconds on the screen.
He even used the time to render an animation of a crystal with caustics while we were waiting to get into the event hall...

Since the Ink'n'Paint material in Max was based on the old Raytracer, it was very slow. The Ink'n'Paint translation as mental ray shader is usually faster. There are also over a dozen contour shaders shipping with Max 6 which can be used for customized cartoon / outline effects.
Reflections, refractions, sub-surface scattering, blurry reflections, displacement etc. are much faster or possible for the first time out of the box.

mental ray in Max 6 also supports RenderElements and most G-Buffer channels just like the Default Scanline Renderer. At Siggraph, the demo guys even composited passes from both renderers in Combustion - this integration works well, too.


This is from top of my head - wait for Max 6 to ship and see for yourself...

[DarkMantid]

I have to agree with Imarshal, this thread isnt as simple as a discussion about which application has better features than the other ( its about support and direction and value for money vs new features).. As i stated at the start of this thread ive been a 3dsmax user for serveral years now, and the studio where I work has quite a few animators all of which are max users.. we have been using max for years now .. and now we are getting fed up with discreet and actually having to pay for discreets shoddy QA and bug fixes (which are appearntly in max6).. its not as simple as saying ok then you guys should switch. There are considerable investments that have been in licences, production pipline, work flow etc .. I seriously want discreet to create a max 5.2 patch with those bug fixes in there ..

[xynaria]

Whilst in a way it might seem good to see people *cough*'defending' Max..it's also unneccessary to some degree as if Max didn't do somethings very well it wouldn't have such a large user base.. and that base obviously cares about Max or it wouldn't be so vocal. I have always maintained that R5 was an insult quite franky and the reason so many are upset about R6 is that it only appears to compound that rather than compensate. In real terms, even if the code for the inclusion for existing scripts was re written for incorporation, it didn't give anyone something they didn't have access to already. The purported new rendering 'solutions' were not IMHO, what was required by most and the inclusion of MR into R6 only reinforces that as do Bobo's comments about the ludicrous speed of the 'Ink an Paint' material.
Particle Flow was believed by many to be going to be included in R5 but was not ready in time and rumoured therefore to be a point release, so that is an inclusion that straddles two releases, however welcome it might be.
If R6 was R5, then many would have probably forgiven what it didn't tackle and commend it for what it did include and be fairly happy. As it is it now comes over as as much a rearguard action for the folly of R5, almost to the point of inducing the feeling of paying twice for what essentially two and a half years down the line from R4 still shows all the signs of not only offering little that is new, but purposely ignoring some areas such as the nurbs, acute lack of speed in the native raytracer, bad implementation of render elements etc etc etc etc... the list is pretty long in many ways.......and in theory would mean the minimum of yet another year minimum of not being addressed
Ah you argue.. what about the new schematic view........yeah why was it so useless for 3 versions in the first place?..there isn't a good answer to that.
You also have to factor in that with so much inclusion of licenced software.. what do either of these upgrades do for anyone who bought an independent rendering solution?......very very little. :)

[Martin Andersen]

Bobo: Thanks alot for that answer, that was very helpfull... Do you know anything about render out in Layers, passes... They have something special in xsi that they can render update/render scenen extreeme fast with mental ray, because it use somekind of render layers ????

:applause:

[dmak]

First off, Bobo, great explanation! Also Treematograph is a great tool and I can't wait to see the next revision! Awsome work, maybe discreet will integrate it sometime :)

On to the issue of the dissapointed max users, I will stop my attempts to change any opinions. I think it's a shame many of you feel this way, but I do understand, you just can't make everyone happy. None the less it's good to see that so many people care in their own way.

Good luck with your complaining. :)

P.S. Just a quick story about money down the drain. I convinced my company to buy Maya 2.5 Complete when it was $22k (On sale for a limited time!). One month later the price dropped to $7k. Since we missed our 30 day return window, we were unable to salvage any of that money. We called and complained for nearly a month with no results. Overall more was spent on that purchase alone than Max, the updates and the plugins we used.

Dan
www.3dimplant.com

[Marsel Khadiyev]

Ahh, mental ray :) now it all makes perfect sense, thanks Bobo.

/me misses good old computer vision/photogrammetry programming *sniff*

Henrik's site brought some memories as well as insight into photon mapping.

About whole Max 6 thing, we'll just have to wait and see...ohh yeah, and we should also put a little more trust in Discreet, they're not as evil as they seem.

Marsel

[BigSerge]

Sweet Googly Moogly, Wow what a thread, If I did not grow up in a 3rd world country I'd hide under my bed and be scared to get hit by one of these bullets flying around. I must voice my opinion on this topic Foshizy. I will agree with most and say that Max does have it's share of buggers but we all can agree, for every bug that bit us we've learned how to squash them and have developed are own workflow to never deal with them again, that is something that all newage artist do in any app. I am a Max lover to the core so rather than pulling out my semi and gunning down those who work hard at improving a software that puts some bred and butter on my table I do what's known as constructive criticism. I am one that is pleased with the upcoming releases new features, as a matter of fact for the hour or so I got to sit on a workstation at siggraph with a Max 6 beta loaded, I had me an ear to ear smile especially getting the chance to do up a quick rigg and put to work the new schematic view (those of you that do a lot of custom riggs or use the wire parameters alot for your animations would definately appreciate this sweet setup).
My rule number one is this, you improve my workflow and I'm a happy camper :thumbsup: when it comes down to the niddy griddy of it all does evryone use every tool in any software (KEY WORD EVERY)???....

I will garantee you that the answer is a big fat No. Mostlikely the tools that you use the most have been improved on, obviously some still do but hey truely with the high demands of todays CGartist what tool does not need improvement? (NURBS) but reality check here why worry about NURBS when SubDiv is what it's all about lately. Oh and BTW the new patch modeling add-ons (just too sweet) and if the tools did not improvement other software developers would be S.O.L.


LPCG (Max Lovers)
Serge

www.3dimplant.com

[Tagi]

My disapointment comes more from the LACK of added features...

For instance... I want to be able to rig morphs/influence objects to a SINGLE bone axis with out writing a headachey script...

I want set driven keys!!!

I want a merge animation feature that works... and is easy to implement.

I want lots of things... but what i struggle with as a max user is that i've invested not only money but YEARS of time learning this app and workflow. So I find myself continually getting disapointed as I see other apps making advancements and we're at release 6 STILL with essential bug problems. So sure say Maya is better or whatever... but that takes time to learn... and i can't be stuffed.. just give me a version of max that does what i need. whinge whinge whinge.....

On other note why would I AGAIN pay for a program that fixes problems the orignal had... this should be a free service/upgrade. The new features alone don't justify the price to me.... maybe some of you will benefit from the more than me... but I am seriously disapointed with the lack of animation and rigging enhancments.


:annoyed: eugh the LAST thing i want to do is learn another app....

[robioto]

If you're talking about set driven keys as in Maya, you can do many if not all of the same things in 3dsmax with wire parameters.

What I would really love is to get the parameter manipulators out of the viewport and into a floater and/or a rollout. That would be awesome. Bobo, any shot at that happening if it's even possible :)

I'm looking forward to this release of 3dsmax, it may not be everything everyone hoped for but I think it's a pretty solid release despite not having paint studio <which I hope is released on subscription soon and with the ability to paint displacement and normal maps -you never know who reads these threads.>

I think that Discreet dosen't do themselves any favors by not showing the breadth and depth of the enhanced feature set, I imagine that's because it might change during the beta process but they need to show potential buyers a little more sizzle and steak if they want to get people excited as Bobo's explaination of Mental Ray illustrates. Discreet should have that description and more on their website about every new feature.

-r

[xynaria]

Originally posted by BigSerge
(NURBS) but reality check here why worry about NURBS when SubDiv is what it's all about lately. Oh and BTW the new patch modeling add-ons (just too sweet) and if the tools did not improvement other software developers would be S.O.L.


LPCG (Max Lovers)
Serge




Sub D might be very fashionable at the moment as are paint like tools becoming.......the simple truth is no tool is ideal for all situations and there are just some jobs that are nigh on if not impossible without Nurbs, then a major pain......if you are going to claim a tool in your toolset, then it should IMHO be reasonably usable. Introducing the Editable Poly was great but not if it's not then integrated properly into the other tools... apart from the serious shortcomings Max's Nurbs have within themselves as it where, then at least they could convert into an untriangulated form to have consistency. Editable Poly should be available as a modifier so the stack can be taken advantage of.....is that unreasonable?
Speaking of which.. Max's so called Sub D could do with some noticeable imrovements ......i.e. less problematic cut tool, and the ability to define sharp or soft edges without having to resort to chamfering tricks which at the moment fail in some instances.
Don't get me started on the near uselessness of selection sets that don't allow mesh editing. :)

[ToddD]

I agree with XYNARIASub D might be very fashionable at the moment as are paint like tools becoming.......the simple truth is no tool is ideal for all situations and there are just some jobs that are nigh on if not impossible without Nurbs
Discounting NURBs because something else is in fashion is not acceptable. Not everyone models characters, for technical models,all types of vehicles, robots, anything else that might require hi surface detail, we are all adapting and using sub-d, but honestly if the nurbs toolset worked properly, it would make things a whole lot easier(and quite possibly improve the final product) for these circumstances. :shrug:

[BigSerge]

"the ability to define sharp or soft edges without having to resort to chamfering tricks which at the moment fail in some instances."


??? define soft or sharp edges hey well slap me silly and call me Suzy if I'm understanding correctly than the option to adjust edge weight and crease value in the edit edges rollout would be what you're looking for I hope and If it is than someone managed to overlook a few tools

[xynaria]

Originally posted by BigSerge


??? define soft or sharp edges hey well slap me silly and call me Suzy if I'm understanding correctly than the option to adjust edge weight and crease value in the edit edges rollout would be what you're looking for I hope and If it is than someone managed to overlook a few tools


Well Suzy, try understanding...... the abilty to determine whether an edge is sharp or soft makes life a lot easier as Wings/Nendo and I'm sure many others have shown. Alhough smoothing groups can work in some instances, they will not be appropiate in all. Creasing I don't use as it distorts the mesh..you might find that workable, in most instances I don't. :)

[ToddD]

Crease and weighting are weak substitutions! :)Are you suggesting that because we have them available, we should feel satisfied? As an example, If your schematic view was lame, would you want me to tell you about some other sub-par feature that you could use in its place? Sub-d is great, and I have a pretty good handle on it, thanx to this forum. . .but for the modeling situations I mentioned, sub-d in conjunction with weight and crease is hardly a substitution for NURBs. Xynaria is right, chamfering and vertex manipulation is our most viable and affective option. I have no beef with max, I have expressed that my thought is any software will have weak points, and users to gripe about them, but Max's nurbs are pathetic, and have remained virtually untouched since their earliest implementation. Someone stated in another post here that the only reason they are included is for import compatability, and so discreet can tout them as a feature, I think that statement isn't too far off.:hmm:

[Tagi]

Originally posted by robioto
If you're talking about set driven keys as in Maya, you can do many if not all of the same things in 3dsmax with wire parameters.


While yeah you can get similar results, wire parameters has NOTHING on set driven key.... you wire it.. and then you gotta write expressions to normalise your results and get it working the way you want.... basically with set driven key... you say I want this to be effected by that.... then you move both the objects where you want them and press set driven key, simple...

Also max's reactor controller is useless as it doesnt work on an IK rig.... so if you want to set up a controll based on a single axis rotation.. you gotta use a script controller... then you gotta extract the individual values... inverse the matrix... normalise the result... EACH time.... talk about headache...

It's these simple problems that most common artists who generate pretty scenes or just model never encounter yet the animator/rigger is faced with these problems all the time... From what i can tell it would easy to add these simple features.. im just disapointed that discreet STILL haven't put complex character rigging at its priority list and have left the animator with a set of dodgey unfinished tools... or worse yet let them rely on character studio. I'm sure im not alone on these frustrations... and the discreet forums are plagued with these issues. I would've expected that if discreet ever wanted to be a major player in film work then it would've made this kind of workflow higher priority....

So if you use max to model/ render fly throughs ... before you say "it's the artist not the tool" try actually doing a complex character rig and then see if you'll ask me why i'm tempted to leave max all alltogether.

:cry:

[LFShade]

Actually, the thing Max has that's closest to set driven key is the reactor controller. Wire parameters give you that extra bit of expressional control when you need it. Also note the advantage of wire parameters in that they can be made to work as a two-way relationship. Not so easy with set driven key!

RH

[Tagi]

I'm unsure why you'd even want them to work both ways...

Also as i said earlier the reactor controller is no good as it fails... (mysteriously) when you want to react to a specific euler angle in an IK rig.

The main pain is having to write the expressions. While yeah i can get a pretty complex rig together in max with a LOT of effort I just wish version 6 was going streamline this stuff so there was no need for expressions etc.

[LFShade]

I feel ya! When it comes to rigging, my main wish is that they would simply optimize controllers better. A handful of constraints on a rig can sometimes slow it down to a painful crawl. A moderately complex rig with around 15 constraints and a matching number of expressions/scripts still animates like butter in Maya or XSI, so why does Max have to bottleneck so badly on it? It's a question that's been asked a few thousand times, but it never seems to be addressed:annoyed:

RH

[xynaria]

Originally posted by LFShade
I When it comes to rigging, my main wish is that they would simply optimize controllers better. A handful of constraints on a rig can sometimes slow it down to a painful crawl. A moderately complex rig with around 15 constraints and a matching number of expressions/scripts still animates like butter in Maya or XSI, so why does Max have to bottleneck so badly on it? It's a question that's been asked a few thousand times, but it never seems to be addressed:annoyed:

RH
Like you niave enough to think they care ????!!! Sorry not being bitchy to you LF Shade.. you know you're a good guy but as for Di$creet ... goodbye and good riddance

[Darv]

Originally posted by Genesis
Indianboy, if you were to fork out cash for a car would you expect it to drive well without crashing randomly, or stopping for no reason?


I see this auto analogy quite often. First, a car is hardware, not software. Secondly, it only takes a second on some of the automotive forums out there to realize that most automotive manufacturers have plenty of issues. One of the auto's requiring the most maintainence are also the most expensive. Ths is not a good analogy.

Darv

[Tagi]

Just cause a car is mechanical hardware doesn't mean it can't be compared with "software"... A car in essance is a tool... it gets your from A to B. 3dsmax is a tool.... it gets your from A to B. Therefore you can compare it to a car in this sense or more the process of transport method to B from A.

When you make anaologies you have to pick and choose the parts relevant to describe what you're talking about, not look at every aspect and say therefore all must apply.

I bet when you need to buy a car to go from A to B you take a long time deciding what's the best vehicle for you. You analyise price, reliability, performance, function and definately comfort, etc etc... so you also should when purchasing software. I also bet you don't go... "oh its all about my driving skills, any car will do".

The problem with the analogy, if any is that the software vehicles we are comparing here are so close in functionality. It causes confusion when people want to compare price, reliability, performance and comfort.

But why? more than likely because people are biased.... How can we judge comfort in software when it comes down to what YOU are used to. Of course MY software is more comfortable... that's what I know. So most will argue based on this biased opinion without rationally and correctly anaylising ALL factors.

"It's all about the artist" argument is ONLY relevant when talking about peoples artistic skills not making judgements on the tools. It's time people seperated the two and formed real analytic opinion not formed on insecurities - In short the phrase could translate to: "I don't want to learn or even admit that their are better methods, stop making me feel insecure with what I'm comfortable with".

Different tasks take different paths. If the road is bumpy... and believe me with character rigging it is... then taking 3dsmax on a spin down that road will leave me battered and bruised... I might get there in the end, but man if I could've spent less or more money on a vehicle with good suspension that will ride the bumps then isn't that worth investigating? :shrug:

[Darv]

The two just don't seem like good comparison to me.

However, one look out there at all the automotives being sold will tell you that reliability is seldom the reason someone buys a car. A lot more goes in to the decision than just how reliable it is. Performance, style, functionality... granted a lot of the same reasons you would buy software.

There is always room for improvment in any software. 3ds max is no different and there are areas where it is more difficult to use than other applciations. I've talked to people who use more than one applciation and they agree, other products have similar issues just in different areas.

The best advice I can give is to let the manufacturer know your concerns through proper channels. For discreet that is http://www.discreet.com/support/max/bug_reporting.html.

Hope that helps.
Regards,
darv

[Genesis]

Tagi, I agree with pretty much everythig you said.

Darv, if you bought a car and the salesman it said it had air condititoning, then when you turned it on, the car stopped, and then kicked you out of the door, I think you would be pretty upset?

Parts of max that just don't work are exactly the same. You go to use some feature in a scene and it kicks you out for no reason anyone can see.

You mention other programs also have problems, so what? we should just accept problems and issues because other programs have problems too?

It would be much better if discreet put in a serious effort, with a proper team, to fix max. make everything work, and work quickly before they move on to adding new things.

I could not care less if max has caustics (for example), its something I would probably use once a year if it was implemented.

Discreet should create a rock solid program, where everything works, especially when using complex scenes. Doing this would attract much more intrest than some new flashy feature.

[thorn3d]

Let's face some cold hard facts - most software has bugs. (Most, not all.) The more features we ask for, the more code that is written - the more chance of getting new bugs. That's life.

Having said that, it's not ok to just take the stance of "all our competitors have problems, we're no different." People - we should STRIVE to be different!

If your house is burned to the ground by an arsonist, is it ok because an entire apt development was burned by arsonists last week? No. Do you feel better when you realize you only lost a single house, and not a multi-million dollar investment? I doubt it.

There is a difference in:

a) NOT knowing about a bug
b) Knowing about a bug, but not being able to easily fix it
c) Knowing about a bug, but making a conscious decision to not fix it until you can charge money for it.

The problem many users have is that discreet often goes with Option C. The press release for max6 even pointed it out - over 100 long-standing bugs were fixed in max6. I will be charged $800 - not only for mental ray - but for the priviledge of getting features I've already paid for... at least, i thought i paid for them in the last version, or the one before that. The point collapse bug - is this fixed in max6? If so, why should I have to pay for it? I thought i was getting reliable non-collapsing behavior in max5.

The problem that ultimately fails in this car analogy is the "lemon law." Most states have them... if you have the same problem in X number of days, and after X number of repairs it is not fixed... boom, you can take the car back and the dealer must refund your money. Software? Forget it.

Software publishers have long enjoyed the license agreement; ie, "this product isn't warrantied nor guaranteed nor intended to be used nor fit for any particular purpose". Software is one of the only industries i can think of in which the company has far more rights than the consumer... even to the point that you can advertise "Feature X!" without having to back up that claim when the user breaks open the freshness seal.

Why do you think people make fun of the "Discreet Certified Plugins" program over at TurboSquid? The app itself isn't certified to even work (see the license agreement), yet somehow the consumer is supposed to have faith in the companies "gold star of approval"?

I'm not slamming discreet. Yes, other 3D companies DO have this method of operation. But this doesn't change the fact that customers do tire of feeling like they spend their hard-earned dollars with barely a thanks in return... and then get charged for a bugfix. The customer base deserves better, and it's within discreet's (and Alias' and Softimage's) abilities and financials to offer them more than what they're getting.

thorn

[Joel Hooks]

"But this doesn't change the fact that customers do tire of feeling like they spend their hard-earned dollars with barely a thanks in return..."

For the love of god....

I can't possibly be the only person that makes a comfortable living using 3dsMax. My paycheck is plenty thanks for me.

If the $800 every year and a half is really hurting you you have a few choices:

1.) Don't upgrade. Stay with your current release until you retire.
2.) Switch to another product. There are many available with many different business models.
3.) Switch fields. Buy this proverbial car and hope it's not a lemon. Use it to deliver pizzas or chinese food to the hungry masses.
4.) Upgrade and continue to use the product for fun and profit.

I can offer my clients hookers and cocaine, it would be within my financial abilities - and I am sure some of them would like it, but I don't.

[I just wanted to hop on the analogy train]

[Tagi]

Toot Toot :thumbsup:

[BigSerge]

Dang tell it like it is Lowdown you don't miss a beat:)

[lukx]

so...bottom line...what tool then is simillar to 3dsmax but doesn't have so much bug problems and is more stable in complicated scenes? Also it's renderer is nice and fast?

[TRick]

Originally posted by lukx
so...bottom line...what tool then is simillar to 3dsmax but doesn't have so much bug problems and is more stable in complicated scenes? Also it's renderer is nice and fast?

Stable...fast...community...support...?!?!?

Seeing your services...I surely say C4D. And if they are maintaining their developments as in the last years, lots can be expected. I use Lightwave (with lots of plugins), FormZ and Lightscape, but my services also contain character animation. I left MAX at version 3, mainly because I don't like it's workflow and user dedication(certainly not for it's price). I could have left at version 1, but I always hoped for a better future. Maybe I still am hoping for some surprises since 3DStudio DOS helped me on the way, and for that I'm very thankfull !!

[robioto]

C4D is excellent for still renders and modeling. For animation its IK system is a joke/nightmare compared to Maya, XSI or 3dsmax for that matter. Some new scripted modules they've developed make the process easier but they still haven't fixed the problem which is a poor ik implementation. I have a friend who used to use C4D, he bought it at version 5 used it until version 7 and then switched to Maya when he saw the ik solution hadn't changed for 8.

If you are doing still, fly throughs, print, etc C4D is an excellent choice, world class renderer, great particles, very nice material system, and good modeling <no ngons but that may have changed for 8.1> but for character animation it's still a dog.

Thorn should have alot to say about C4D as he was kind of like their prodigal son<ok maybe that's an exaggeration>. <He had a series of tutorial videos, and produced some very nice work with it>

-r

[Darv]

Originally posted by Genesis
Tagi, I agree with pretty much everythig you said.

Darv, if you bought a car and the salesman it said it had air condititoning, then when you turned it on, the car stopped, and then kicked you out of the door, I think you would be pretty upset?

Parts of max that just don't work are exactly the same. You go to use some feature in a scene and it kicks you out for no reason anyone can see.

You mention other programs also have problems, so what? we should just accept problems and issues because other programs have problems too?

It would be much better if discreet put in a serious effort, with a proper team, to fix max. make everything work, and work quickly before they move on to adding new things.

I could not care less if max has caustics (for example), its something I would probably use once a year if it was implemented.

Discreet should create a rock solid program, where everything works, especially when using complex scenes. Doing this would attract much more intrest than some new flashy feature.

To your questions.

Besides the point that your analogy is physically impossible...First I would take the car to the dealer and ask them to fix it. I'd demonstrate the problem to them directly so they could verify the problem. As it happens, I've had serious problems with a new Toyota I purchased and so long as the dealer was willing to work with me to find a solution I've been okay with it. I may have been frustrated at the time. I may have been inconvenienced by it. But no, I never got angry about it.

If you know of a specific problem, report it directly to Discreet support so they get it addressed. Remember, they can't fix what they can't reproduce. They need some interaction from the users in identifying the problem so that it can be addressed.

Cheers,
Darv

[lukx]

so after what robioto said we got Maya nad XSI. Now Maya has not quite nice renderer so there's only XSI last.

[LFShade]

actually, Maya 5 and XSI have the same renderer: Mental Ray. And now Max 6 will have it as well:)

RH

[Darv]

Originally posted by neverwake
Let's face some cold hard facts - most software has bugs. (Most, not all.) The more features we ask for, the more code that is written - the more chance of getting new bugs. That's life.

Having said that, it's not ok to just take the stance of "all our competitors have problems, we're no different." People - we should STRIVE to be different!

If your house is burned to the ground by an arsonist, is it ok because an entire apt development was burned by arsonists last week? No. Do you feel better when you realize you only lost a single house, and not a multi-million dollar investment? I doubt it.

There is a difference in:

a) NOT knowing about a bug
b) Knowing about a bug, but not being able to easily fix it
c) Knowing about a bug, but making a conscious decision to not fix it until you can charge money for it.

The problem many users have is that discreet often goes with Option C. The press release for max6 even pointed it out - over 100 long-standing bugs were fixed in max6. I will be charged $800 - not only for mental ray - but for the priviledge of getting features I've already paid for... at least, i thought i paid for them in the last version, or the one before that. The point collapse bug - is this fixed in max6? If so, why should I have to pay for it? I thought i was getting reliable non-collapsing behavior in max5.

The problem that ultimately fails in this car analogy is the "lemon law." Most states have them... if you have the same problem in X number of days, and after X number of repairs it is not fixed... boom, you can take the car back and the dealer must refund your money. Software? Forget it.

Software publishers have long enjoyed the license agreement; ie, "this product isn't warrantied nor guaranteed nor intended to be used nor fit for any particular purpose". Software is one of the only industries i can think of in which the company has far more rights than the consumer... even to the point that you can advertise "Feature X!" without having to back up that claim when the user breaks open the freshness seal.

Why do you think people make fun of the "Discreet Certified Plugins" program over at TurboSquid? The app itself isn't certified to even work (see the license agreement), yet somehow the consumer is supposed to have faith in the companies "gold star of approval"?

I'm not slamming discreet. Yes, other 3D companies DO have this method of operation. But this doesn't change the fact that customers do tire of feeling like they spend their hard-earned dollars with barely a thanks in return... and then get charged for a bugfix. The customer base deserves better, and it's within discreet's (and Alias' and Softimage's) abilities and financials to offer them more than what they're getting.

thorn

More specifically, any software as complex as 3ds max (or any other professional 3D package) is going to have issues. And it's not just the complexity of the program that is the problem. Your also running it on systems that vary widely from system to system. It is unrealisitic to think that you can eliminate all the issues.

Your option #C isn't quite how it works. Defects are not delayed so that there can be a charge made for them. The upgrade costs reflect new features and feature enhancements only. Defects are typically fixed according to severity. During development of new versions some developer time is alotted to address issues that have been identified. Programmers may also address previously defered defects especially when they involve an area of the program that is being updated anyway. This is the way it is at most any company continually developing software.

Cheers,
Darv

[Genesis]

Hey people check out Darv's profile at:

http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=21788

I understand where he is comming from now :rolleyes:

I like the bit where it says:

Biography: Senior Support Engineer

and

Homepage: http://support.discreet.com


Maybe you should spend more time working on your product rather than defending it.

Anyhow, so far as your toyota with the problems, how upset would you be if you took the car back and they said, "oh, yeah we know about those problems, they will be fixed in next year's model, you should buy that, it has some cool new accessories too"

I am guessing you would be upset? Well that is what discreet is doing to us, the users of its product, so why should we not be upset.

You want us to pay for an upgrade to 6, which is for the most part a fix for all of the parts they stuffed up in previous editions.

I don't hate max, I use it every day to earn my living. I do enjoy its workflow also, however Max is losing support in the indstury.

Due to issues like I, and many others in this thread have mentioned above and previously, more and more companies are asking for maya, or softimage. I have a lot of production max knowledge I dont want to be useless, already many companies I work with have switched to soft and maya, and are looking down on max for its instability.

So I don't hate max or discreet, it just want them to pick up there game and continue to be a force and grow rather than fade away.

[dmak]

Genesis,
Please heed these remarks:

#1. You speak for yourself and maybe a couple other people in this thread. Please don't use the word US when trying to make your point. Many of US are not as frustrated and angry as other people in this thread.
#2. If Darv is a Senior Engineer for discreet, it's obvious that Discreet CARES, he posted in this thread.
#3. This is not the official Discreet bug report or customer service site, if you want to see if they care about your complaints, use thier site.
#4. You think you can do a better job coding a more complex piece of software? Go for it. Until I see a product I can critique of yours, keep your whitty comments to yourself.

PLEASE KEEP THIS CONVERSATION CIVIL. I understand there are flaws with Max, as with any software out there, if you really want to help change things, be rational, calm, civil and use the right channels.

Frustrated,
dmak
www.3dimplant.com

[BigSerge]

The Heck okay I personaly had enough and am offended, People hidding behind keyboards and monitors and be so cocky and so quick to flex those muscle and dis-respect people working hard at giving you a better tool set to work with.


Genesis who ever you are?? oh wait a minute that seems to be the case for all the complainers on most threads (NO PROFILE) on who they are. I'm sorry that just means to me that either people are affraid to show there true identity for whatever reason that maybe, which simply means that your opinion might not be as important but blatent rudeness is. So as I was saying How Childish is that Genesis??

"
Hey people check out Darv's profile at:

http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?s=...fo&userid=21788

I understand where he is comming from now

I like the bit where it says:

Biography: Senior Support Engineer

and

Homepage: http://support.discreet.com


Maybe you should spend more time working on your product rather than defending it. "

Wow sounds like something a 15 year old kid would post. Now I do appreciate your bit of CONSTRUCTIVE criticism you have there at the end of your vent but, do some of us a favor and do not speak for everyone (especially talking down to the Senior Support Engineer) Darv may not be able to vent off sense he does work for Discreet and attacking Darv is like attacking guys like Bobo in which I think all Max users should bow down too.

I for one do not work for Discreet but, I Stand for them toe for toe pound for pound and will rap this up by saying you guys seem to have too much time at hand to be ranting like this and kicking one of the greatest software developers down. So you want to be heard how about starting of with a completed profile?? keyboard muscle heads I have nothing too hide

NO love and No respect for you players
Serge

[Genesis]

1# I never spoke for anyone else, I just mentioned that others had pointed out that they were furstrated and had put up their own reasons, that's how this post started after all.

2# cares, or wants to save face? he is not here in an official role.

3# people are not reporting bugs, this is a discussion forum, people are putting up opinions, that is what it is for.

4# What, because I and no coder and could do no better I should shut up? That is a comment without thought, so you never complain about anything unless you can do better?

This is getting personal now, and is fast becoming a waste of space, I am leaving the post. Calling me a 15 year old kid? We should be happy discreet is:

"giving you a better tool set to work with."

Yeah for a big fat wad of cash, sure.

anyhow I am out, peace people.

[magicm]

People, please don't let this thread turn into a flame-war and just stick to the subject. I think it should be seen as a privelege having someone from discreet participating in this conversation.

thanks
Martijn

[xynaria]

Originally posted by BigSerge
I for one do not work for Discreet but, I Stand for them toe for toe pound for pound and will rap this up by saying you guys seem to have too much time at hand to be ranting like this and kicking one of the greatest software developers down.
If there were proper visible signs of development do you really think so many would be so upset about the state of the last two upgrades (sic)

[Marsel Khadiyev]

Just out of curiosity, what kind of visual signs were you expecting? :P

Marsel

[Darv]

Originally posted by Genesis
Hey people check out Darv's profile at:

http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?s=&action=getinfo&userid=21788

I understand where he is comming from now :rolleyes:

I like the bit where it says:

Biography: Senior Support Engineer

and

Homepage: http://support.discreet.com


Maybe you should spend more time working on your product rather than defending it.

As a support engineer, I support the product. I don't develop it. I would imagine most people, at least those that frequent the 3ds max forums at Discreet, would know who I am.


Anyhow, so far as your toyota with the problems, how upset would you be if you took the car back and they said, "oh, yeah we know about those problems, they will be fixed in next year's model, you should buy that, it has some cool new accessories too"

I am guessing you would be upset? Well that is what discreet is doing to us, the users of its product, so why should we not be upset.

You want us to pay for an upgrade to 6, which is for the most part a fix for all of the parts they stuffed up in previous editions.

I don't hate max, I use it every day to earn my living. I do enjoy its workflow also, however Max is losing support in the indstury.

Due to issues like I, and many others in this thread have mentioned above and previously, more and more companies are asking for maya, or softimage. I have a lot of production max knowledge I dont want to be useless, already many companies I work with have switched to soft and maya, and are looking down on max for its instability.

So I don't hate max or discreet, it just want them to pick up there game and continue to be a force and grow rather than fade away.

As a support engineer, I don't so much work on the product as I do support for it. One of those tasks is to report known issues. I am also a published 3ds max artist. So I use the product. As an user I also like to frequent the forums to see what people are saying. It helps me be a better support engineer and I learn things about the program that help me to be a better artist. My goal in coming here is simply to see what issues people are having and what if anything I can do about it. Besides, discreet didn't ask me to post here. I did it on my own.

Thus far, I have seen just complaints. I believe there is a reason for the complaint, but I have yet to see a specific issue pointed out. If there are issues, I urge you to report them though the bug submission form on the discreet support web site. It helps us to help you. If you assume that another artist will report it, then we still have no idea how many people it is a problem for.

I still think the car analogy isn't fitting. First, I don't get the option of buying the next model at a significantly reduced price. Secondly, where software is involved, I am probably going to upgrade anyway. Sorry, I just don't agree with the connection between a new car and software.

Cheers,
Darv

[Steve Green]

Hi Darv,

OK, here's the old chestnut/dead horse...

I would like an answer regarding the bug which results in editable poly objects being collapsed if you have a subobject selection active at the vertex level and use set key. It looks like it was introduced in 5.1

Example

1. create a cube
2. collapse to editable poly
3. select top 4 vertices
4. close sub-object mode without deselecting polys
5. Create sphere
6. Turn setkey mode on
7. Go to frame 10 and move the sphere and set key
8. Scrub slider and watch your cube collapse

This is a particularly bad bug because it is not immediately apparent until you know what causes it and what you are looking for.

I would have expected a bugfix for this to be a free patch, but it looks like it will have to be a paid Max 6 upgrade to get it. I can't get a straight yes/no answer out of discreet on this topic. This behavior was first reported at the beginning of the year, but the cause was unknown (I even posted a file which collapsed as soon as you scrubbed the slider for Peter Watje to look at), and exact steps were given by users in March.

At the very, very least I would expect discreet to e-mail their users about this, so they can avoid it, or have it in the FAQ. They have done neither.

I really want to know why discreet do not consider a bug like this an essential one to fix, and are content to leave it in a major release of Max.

Think of it this way, a new user buys a seat of Max 5.1 and their meshes collapse when they animate for no reason that they can see.

New user takes a look in the FAQ on the board - the only mention of disappearing meshes relates to skin, but this happens on all meshes. So they ask around, "is there a bugfix?", "no, you'll have to pay £600 to upgrade"....

This is why I am hesitant to hand over £600 to a company that is happy to leave a bug like this in their product when they have known about it for 5 months.

Regards,

Steve

[xynaria]

Originally posted by Marsel Khadiyev
Just out of curiosity, what kind of visual signs were you expecting? :P

Marsel
Visible..not visual.. probably signs that the problematic areas were being 'addressed' ..that repeated requests by many were being considered, and that indications of actual development were taking place either within Max or it's still rumoured but never verified replacement. To my mind both R5 and R6 were/are not what I would call proper upgrades and show a distinct lack of direction. Fair enough.. some cry.. don't upgrade.. exceedingly doubtful I will, I didn't to R5, not just because of that, but the attitude etc, I see no point in 'going forward' in that way. There are elements of Max I really like but I don't like the way it's being 'handled' ..or not being possibly more to the point......many think at best R5 and R6 combined would be equivalent to R5.5.. I'd still say that was being rather kind to them. Sure all software has bugs, sure there's always more wish lists than are ever met.. just that others manage to make more of a case for at least seeming to bother, rather than appearing to try to get away with as little as possible, because they thought they could.

[Aearon]

i'm still amazed how many conclusions you're able to draw from a press release. i admit that discreet doesn't have the best track record given the last two updates.. but who says that none of the existing problems were adressed in R6? it's only natural that a press release anouncing a new product would put new features in the foreground. that doesn't mean that debugging didn't take place :shrug:

i for one am gonna keep my cool and wait for the actual product

i'm getting the impression that all the flaming on discreet is not based on actual facts but on a general attidute of hatred towards the company that's spreading...i'm not saying max doesn't need improvement, nor am i adressing any specific posters with this, it's just a general impression... criticism is less and less attached to FACTS.

to quote darv "I have yet to see a specific issue pointed out."

[taboo]

let me summarize why everybody really pissed of.
None of the screenshots showing actually something about the new features in Max6 under discreet site.

it is this simple.

:rolleyes:

[BigSerge]

"let me summarize why everybody really pissed of.
None of the screenshots showing actually something about the new features in Max6 under discreet site."



Well in that case why not keep a positive note instead of negative? you are pre-judging just by a few screen shots, yes it maybe exactly what you're thinking of to be ticked off but, then again how about thinking the final release maybe much more/much better than you expected??


Just a thought :hmm:

Back into the Love mode
Serge
www.3dimplant.com

[thorn3d]

i'm getting the impression that all the flaming on discreet is not based on actual facts but on a general attidute of hatred towards the company that's spreading...

That's certainly not my motivation... i don't hate discreet nor have any hatred towards the programming team. I think Darv is a great guy who puts a lot of quality hours into his job. No hatred here at all.

However, i will say this: I'm getting the impression that unless one wishes to be a cheerleader for the upgrade, you're expected to shut your mouth and be quiet... and if you DON'T, you're labelled an instigator or someone who just wishes to grind an ax with discreet over petty, pointless things.

Finally: when i first came to use 3dsmax, it was with v4. I saw a lot of the "thanks for just adding on scripts, great job :(" posts around the web, and frankly i didn't understand what everyone was talking about... all i saw were a lot of good tools. With v5, the same thing came around again... this time, i saw there was a slight bit of truth (meshtools), but overall i thought v5 was a good buy for my money. With v6, it's a different story entirely... i DO see why 3dsmax has gotten this reputation, and it's not undeserved.

Futhermore, as the previous poster mentioned - yes, the point collapse situtation is unforunate. It's VERY unforunate that the bug was identified nearly 5 months ago, and to date there has been no patch to rectify the situation. It is things like that which start the "flames" on these boards, moreso than whether or not the new isoline display is a valuable feature.

When I look at how Maxon and Newtek handle bug fixes with continual free patches between versions, and compare this to discreet's approach - sorry, I don't think that discreet is doing the right thing for their customers.

thorn

[taboo]

what is the use of having the screenshots if you really showing nothing.
how a company like discreet did this kind of childish mistake ?

that is what we are questioning actually.

i checked out the big versions of the screenshots in somewhere none of them showing the actuall feature.

it is really funny.

why discreet likes to keep things hidden?

[Darv]

Originally posted by Steve Green
Hi Darv,

OK, here's the old chestnut/dead horse...

I would like an answer regarding the bug which results in editable poly objects being collapsed if you have a subobject selection active at the vertex level and use set key. It looks like it was introduced in 5.1



Yes, I head about this issue when it was posted to the discreet forums. It has been logged and I believe is scheduled to be addressed. I do believe that a workaround was offered to help avoid this problem. Did that not help avoid the crash?

As far as I know, product support has never received a call or a bug report on this issue but then I don't see all of them. At any rate, it's not something we are getting calls on. Of course, those issues that do receive a number of calls will get the highest priority. Especially if there is a workaround available to us. If this issue is a problem that you are unable to avoid, I recommend logging a case or bug report against it. This will help to get the issue addressed.

Cheers,
Darv

[dmak]

I hope a moderator deletes this thread. It's really getting repetitive.

Fine some of us want a 5.5 release or a patch, thats great, everyone who wants that, http://support.discreet.com

Some of us now hate Discreet for reasons that are seemingly childish as they are due to speculation and have no factual basis. Start a new thread called "We want to bash Discreet just because"

Some of us actually have a bug to report that hasn't been resolved, start a new thread called "3DS Max Bugs" or, as I stated above http://support.discreet.com

Some of us might ACTUALLY want to discuss the features Discreet has decided to implement in MAX 6, hence the name of this thread (Look at the thread title "Max 6 NEW Features"). Please, for the love of god, lets be gentlemen about this and try and use these great web tools (cgtalk and other forum based websites as well as discreets support site) we have before us for our benefit not to our detriment. For the sake of everyone lets do that..

dan
www.3dimplant.com

[Steve Green]

Hi Darv,

yes, I know the workaround (to set a key on the first frame for everything, animated or not), but it didn't help recover the work that I had to redo because of it, and regardless of whether you've had calls about it, it worries me that discreet have not issued a patch, nor have it on their FAQ database.

I consider workarounds for major bugs to be temporary solutions for failings in the programme, not something that you *must* do until the next (paid) release.

- Steve

[Steve Green]

Dmak,

until discreet can offer more detailed info on what the new features consist of, or example movies of them in action, I don't think the majority of people have enough information to fairly discuss them.

And that is up to discreet to provide.

- Steve

[Darv]

Originally posted by Steve Green
Hi Darv,

yes, I know the workaround (to set a key on the first frame for everything, animated or not), but it didn't help recover the work that I had to redo because of it, and regardless of whether you've had calls about it, it worries me that discreet have not issued a patch, nor have it on their FAQ database.

I consider workarounds for major bugs to be temporary solutions for failings in the programme, not something that you *must* do until the next (paid) release.

- Steve

I agree. The thing is that defects that we get calls on typically are the one that get classified as a "major bug" simply becasue we are getting reports of it.

For instance, until your note, I didn't realize the scope of the problem it was for you. I agree there should be a FAQ on it and will see if I can't find some time to pump one out on it now that I am more aware of it. If this issue is a big one for you, then please take a moment and log a bug against it to us. We'd appreciate it.

Regards,
Darv

[Steve Green]

Hi,

Thanks, I've already logged it (when it first came up).

I can log it again if you think it necessary


Regards,

Steve

[Darv]

Did you receive a message back from us regarding it?

I was away on vacation for 3 weeks to it's possible I just missed it.

Darv

[Steve Green]

I received a workaround for tech support, I presume this means that it is definitely known and logged in the bug database?

Thanks,

Steve

[Darv]

Yes, it's definately been logged. I checked on that already.

Darv

[thorn3d]

Trying to move in a positive direction...

Setting a frame 0 key for everything in the scene isn't really a practical workaround. However, it would seem to me that it wouldn't take a whole lot of work to write a maxscript which would go through the entire scene, select each poly object, and "unselect" any subobject selection. Then you'd be somewhat assured your scene was "clean" for animation.

Perhaps something to consider?

thorn

[Tagi]

Darv,

you'd think a software company that cared about its products would firstly be interested in potential bugs regardless if it was an official posting or not. What I mean by "care" is that if the company or employee hears about a bug on a forum or floating around the industry then why wouldn't they investigate this and add it to their list without "waiting" for some user to officially do it? No offence to you personally but this sounds like the laziest way of discreet getting around the issue.

Everyone else,

Perhaps some people bag the software because it hasn't met their expectations? Perhaps some people defend max so vividly because its been loyal and good to them for what they need it to do. Perhaps people don't officially report bugs because they have a warez copy? :shame: Perhaps forums are a good way to vent some steam and not ment to be so serious?

From what I understand when people actually complain things usually get better... it's when people sit on their arse that things remain unchanged. So apart from some bruised egos its a good thing to voice your opinons... put on some tough skin people and express yourself... that's what a forum is for. Keep it clean though and hopefully someone will hear what you have to say.

[Steve Green]

Hi Thorn,

not really a solution in all cases, what if you need a sub-object solution, say with a modifier on top for animation?

Adding a mesh-select doesn't help either, it still collapses.

The only 2 solutions that really work are to force a set key, or don't have any editable polys in there with sub-obj selections.

Cheers,

Steve

[thorn3d]

not really a solution in all cases, what if you need a sub-object solution, say with a modifier on top for animation?

Hi Steve,

Ya know, that kind of occured to me when i was writing it but i wasn't 100% sure if it was the case or not... thanks for the clarity. :)

thorn

[Darv]

Originally posted by Tagi
Darv,

you'd think a software company that cared about its products would firstly be interested in potential bugs regardless if it was an official posting or not. What I mean by "care" is that if the company or employee hears about a bug on a forum or floating around the industry then why wouldn't they investigate this and add it to their list without "waiting" for some user to officially do it? No offence to you personally but this sounds like the laziest way of discreet getting around the issue.


That's exactly what is done and exactly what occured in this case. If someone in QE or product support sees and issue on the forums, it gets logged. And in the person that found it also came up with a workaround. The problem with this route is that if this issue isn't reported though the support channel, there are no cases tied to the defect. When defects are being addressed, the highest priority ones are those with multiple reports. The more reports from different clients, the more people it affects and the higher it moves up the priority. The product support cases help to identify those areas that need to be addressed first and quickest.

The discussion forums are peer to peer support. It's because many of us do care about the product that we go out there and find issues, log them, and when possible, provide a workaround to the user. It's not mandated by the company and is quite time consuming because of all the non-issue related chat. Contacting discreet support directly is the best way to get an issue that you care about addressed. That's my only point.

Regards,
Darv

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