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dmeyer
07-23-2009, 05:29 PM
Apple updates Final Cut Studio with more than 100 new features
July 23, 2009
Apple today announced a significant update to Final Cut Studio, offering more than 100 new features and new versions of Final Cut Pro, Motion, Soundtrack Pro, Color, and Compressor. Final Cut Pro 7 expands Apple’s ProRes codec family to support virtually any workflow and includes Easy Export for one step output to a variety of formats. At $999, the new Final Cut Studio is $300 less than the previous release and is also available as an upgrade for just $299.

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/


Apple unveils new Logic Studio
July 23, 2009
The new version of Logic Studio introduced today offers major upgrades to Logic Pro and Mainstage and more than 200 new features that simplify tasks. “The new Logic Studio is ideal for professional musicians, live performers and GarageBand enthusiasts who want to take their music to the next level,” said Philip Schiller, Apple’s senior vice president of Worldwide Product Marketing. Available today, Logic Studio sells for $499. Current Logic Studio and Logic Pro users can upgrade for $199.

http://www.apple.com/logicstudio/

Venkman
07-23-2009, 06:43 PM
I wonder if they fixed the bug in Soundtrack pro which can cause it to output sound as loud as possible - which can damage your hearing and/or your equipment.

Click the link to see, I didn't want to embed it:

http://www.kolumbus.fi/heilei/stp_bug_big.jpg


And now you can burn a blu-ray disc from compressor (very cool), but not from DVD Studio Pro (WTF?). What a shame to have a fully HD video suite with multichannel mixing capabilities from Apple that can't master your own design to a Blu-Ray disc.

Oh well, baby steps, apple. They'll hold out until optical media is dead. ;)

John-S
07-23-2009, 06:44 PM
I didn't even notice that dvd sp no blu ray support. Crazy.

I guess if apple decides to throw a player in the mac pro they can add that feature via software update. Doesn't appear they care too though...

Lone Deranger
07-23-2009, 08:41 PM
I wonder if they finally cocoa-fied these apps. And made them fully 64bit.
Apple has really been dragging their heels on their Pro stuff. :banghead:

SheepFactory
07-23-2009, 08:52 PM
Too bad you have to be out of your mind to buy one of the mac pros required to enjoy these.

Per-Anders
07-23-2009, 09:37 PM
Looks like it might not be Cocoa yet :/ Some nice features in there though, I just wish that Apple would deign to communicate once in a while with it's userbase. MS Trounce them when it comes to bug-reporting/tracking and general communication IMO.

John-S
07-23-2009, 09:40 PM
Too bad you have to be out of your mind to buy one of the mac pros required to enjoy these.
Whats wrong with an imac or macbook pro? I've got them running on both :)

Final Cut Studio System Requirements aren't much at all...

deepcgi
07-23-2009, 09:48 PM
There IS Blu-ray support, now. You have to look down under What's New for Compressor and DVD Studio Pro. I don't think the OS will be supporting Blu-Ray playback until Snow Leopard, though.

SheepFactory
07-23-2009, 09:50 PM
Whats wrong with an imac or macbook pro? I've got them running on both :)

Final Cut Studio System Requirements aren't much at all...


I am running them on my macbook pro as well but its showing its age nowadays. I am done with Apple as soon as I get my new i7 desktop soon. :)

dmeyer
07-23-2009, 09:59 PM
Too bad you have to be out of your mind to buy one of the mac pros required to enjoy these.

The single chip Mac Pros are expensive. The 8 core machines are pretty similar to competition.

fahr
07-23-2009, 10:14 PM
Why does every effing discussion concerning an apple product always degenerate into a mac vs pc war before the end of the first page?

Imhotep397
07-23-2009, 10:24 PM
It's kind of funny how Apple has been using Francis Ford Coppola to promote their stuff since he was Avid beta tester 1 and pretty much helped architect how the original Avid system interface worked without ever getting any kind of credit or significant stake in the company. Apparently Avid just went off after he helped them develop it and took all of the credit. It wouldn't surprise me if him promoting Final Cut is almost all about payback time for him.

aglick
07-23-2009, 10:42 PM
Why does every effing discussion concerning an apple product always degenerate into a mac vs pc war before the end of the first page?


'cause MACs SUCK!



I kid. I kid.

MAC's are fine machines. I like them.

I can't figure out how to use one, but they sure are sexy to look at.

;)

Seriously though, they're good machines. But then again, any machine is a good machine if you can get your work done on it.

Imhotep397
07-23-2009, 11:08 PM
As far as BluRay is concerned...As an independent I'm not concerned at all. BluRay is a D.O.A playback format that's pretty much the LaserDisc format of this era. Most average consumers won't buy them and the licensing terms for authoring sucks. Unless you want a ghetto non-official BluRay logo bearing product which every "big" release won't do you're stuck paying some ridiculous licensing fee. People will probably think your stuff is bootlegged.

John-S
07-23-2009, 11:32 PM
I am running them on my macbook pro as well but its showing its age nowadays. I am done with Apple as soon as I get my new i7 desktop soon. :)
Hey, whatever you prefer. I just wanted to be sure you understood the hardware min requirements because it sounded like you thought it required a mac pro tower to run or something...

I agree somewhat about blu-ray. Personally I think its DOA. As the world moves more and more online so fast as well as ipods etc... I think there won't be a huge demand for blu-ray. I mean, it might take over dvd slowly I don't really doubt that too much but I think the whole "disk" theory in general is kinda slowely disappearing.

Maybe I'm way off... I don't know.

John-S
07-24-2009, 12:04 AM
I wonder if they finally cocoa-fied these apps. And made them fully 64bit.
Apple has really been dragging their heels on their Pro stuff. :banghead:
Found this "observation" I guess we can call it... on the topic. Some of it is irrelevant since the announcement today but it gives a slight understanding of what to expect.

http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2009/06/21/what-about-final-cut-studio-and-snow-leopard/

Not that we should be happy with "what to expect" but some of it seems like he's got a little bit of a clue what he's talking about in terms of a timeline etc.

Linz
07-24-2009, 12:42 AM
Too bad you have to be out of your mind to buy one of the mac pros required to enjoy these.

Why the hell would the 'Forum Leader' say something as troll-like and inflammatory as that? I thought part of your job would be to keep these threads from being derailed...guess not.

vfx
07-24-2009, 08:19 AM
Why the hell would the 'Forum Leader' say something as troll-like and inflammatory as that? I thought part of your job would be to keep these threads from being derailed...guess not.

And your comment only helps to fuel fustration so why bother writing something if you haven't got anything nice to say?

and why do people always get on their high horse about people debating PC vs Mac - its healthy in this industry to find the best tech for the job. So to add to this, I will say that the one thing that always turns me off Macs is the lack of upgradability. For example, my i7 desktop machine has some reused parts that I didnt need to upgrade from my old pc thus saving money and still getting all the power I need. It just kinda feels like a throwaway society over there in mac world.

Also it would be nice to see Apple port some of their best software (Final Cut) over to the PC - hell MS has done it for them!

flipnap
07-24-2009, 12:14 PM
Too bad you have to be out of your mind to buy one of the mac pros required to enjoy these.

tsk tsk tsk.. sheep you know better than that

aglick
07-24-2009, 12:37 PM
Hey - as moderators, we may indeed be Gods among men (yuk yuk) - but we're only human.

;)

We have stong ideas about stuff as well and sometimes it shows.

I'd like to think we can all cut each other some slack now and then, huh?

Don't worry - Be Happy.

kex
07-24-2009, 01:04 PM
Its just sheep hes a big flip flopper any who, im sure he will be suckling from the tender apple send in a month or twos time.

aglick
07-24-2009, 01:26 PM
Also it would be nice to see Apple port some of their best software (Final Cut) over to the PC - hell MS has done it for them!

I don't ever see that happening. It's a foregone conclusion that Apple only develops software in order to push its hardware and OS. I may be way of base, but It's my feeling that they (the Apple corporate brass) see software apps as a necessary evil.

Venkman
07-24-2009, 01:56 PM
There IS Blu-ray support, now. You have to look down under What's New for Compressor and DVD Studio Pro. I don't think the OS will be supporting Blu-Ray playback until Snow Leopard, though.

Yes, in an export option to use an apple template from all the video programs (final cut, motion, compressor, etc), but not from DVD SP - which has not been updated with anything new. You can't author Blu Ray discs with DVD SP.

From what I understand, the licensing fees for the software are still in the tens of thousands for shops that do work on Blu-Ray. I guess Apple doesn't have the clout to bring that price down to a reasonable point for consumers.

Too bad you have to be out of your mind to buy one of the mac pros required to enjoy these.

I can't really find cheaper prices from anyone else for those new machines. I dunno what that's about...

Apoclypse
07-24-2009, 02:30 PM
And your comment only helps to fuel fustration so why bother writing something if you haven't got anything nice to say?

and why do people always get on their high horse about people debating PC vs Mac - its healthy in this industry to find the best tech for the job. So to add to this, I will say that the one thing that always turns me off Macs is the lack of upgradability. For example, my i7 desktop machine has some reused parts that I didnt need to upgrade from my old pc thus saving money and still getting all the power I need. It just kinda feels like a throwaway society over there in mac world.

Also it would be nice to see Apple port some of their best software (Final Cut) over to the PC - hell MS has done it for them!

That's silly. Software is the main differentiator for the Mac, its what drives Mac sales, not the hardware. Should Apple really give up their main selling point? MS is a software company, they don't care what they have their software running on just as long as they are the only game in town. In-fact MS Word (and I think Excel) was on MacOS before MS even created Windows. Even if Apple were to offer their pro apps on other platforms, prices wouldn't be as low as they are on the Mac. In-fact if you have a Mac nothing comes close to Apple's pricing. Logic Studio for $499 is almost a giveaway, compare that to other applications in the same category which only start at $499 and if you want all the bells and whistles that Logic Studio has you are looking at over $1500 worth of software. I should know I bought Komplete 5 for that much and that was just a plugin bundle. I bought Ableton Live and that was $799 at the end of the day, Pro Tools at that price range is not even a full version its an LE version which limits what you can do. If you want the "real" version you are looking at a downpayment on a house.

Lone Deranger
07-24-2009, 02:41 PM
Or how about you stop making the same lame "jokes" and abusing your moderator status for your own company's agenda every time a topic like this comes up? You strike me as terribly biased and the only reason you get away with it is Boxx' long time sponsoring relationship with the CG Society. Honestly.. it's quite pitiful.


Hey - as moderators, we may indeed be Gods among men (yuk yuk) - but we're only human.

;)

We have stong ideas about stuff as well and sometimes it shows.

I'd like to think we can all cut each other some slack now and then, huh?

Don't worry - Be Happy.

ThirdEye
07-24-2009, 04:16 PM
Or how about you stop making the same lame "jokes" and abusing your moderator status for your own company's agenda every time a topic like this comes up? You strike me as terribly biased and the only reason you get away with it is Boxx' long time sponsoring relationship with the CG Society. Honestly.. it's quite pitiful.

Or how about you stop insulting moderators just because you don't like them? Maybe you should read the rules of this forum again.

SheepFactory
07-24-2009, 04:35 PM
Why the hell would the 'Forum Leader' say something as troll-like and inflammatory as that? I thought part of your job would be to keep these threads from being derailed...guess not.


I say it as a long time and current apple user. Sorry next time I will cater to your needs instead of giving my opinion.

If you think getting a mac pro 2.6, with a friggin gforce gt 120 and 3 gb of ram is a good deal for $2900 (cad) all the more power to you.

Linz
07-24-2009, 06:16 PM
I say it as a long time and current apple user. Sorry next time I will cater to your needs instead of giving my opinion.

If you think getting a mac pro 2.6, with a friggin gforce gt 120 and 3 gb of ram is a good deal for $2900 (cad) all the more power to you.

I'm a long time Apple user too and I don't entirely disagree with you. However, I felt your tone was unprofessional...particularly as a moderator. I've always thought of CGTalk as one of the premiere CG sites and was simply surprised to find a forum leader potentially derail a thread in that way.

Apologies if I caused anyone offence.

Lone Deranger
07-24-2009, 06:23 PM
Interesting article. Thanks for posting it. Guess we'll have to wait and see what Snow Leopard brings to the table.

Found this "observation" I guess we can call it... on the topic. Some of it is irrelevant since the announcement today but it gives a slight understanding of what to expect.

http://www.philiphodgetts.com/2009/06/21/what-about-final-cut-studio-and-snow-leopard/

Not that we should be happy with "what to expect" but some of it seems like he's got a little bit of a clue what he's talking about in terms of a timeline etc.

SheepFactory
07-24-2009, 06:41 PM
I'm a long time Apple user too and I don't entirely disagree with you. However, I felt your tone was unprofessional...particularly as a moderator. I've always thought of CGTalk as one of the premiere CG sites and was simply surprised to find a forum leader potentially derail a thread in that way.

Apologies if I caused anyone offence.


Sorry didnt mean to derail the thread.

On topic:

Logic upgrade seems pretty sweet, Definitely going to upgrade.

RFX
07-24-2009, 08:43 PM
And where's that supposed Shake successor :D ...

kex
07-24-2009, 08:57 PM
A shake successor would have to be really really good, better than nuke as its multiplatform to even stand a chance?

Seraca
07-24-2009, 09:01 PM
As far as BluRay is concerned...As an independent I'm not concerned at all. BluRay is a D.O.A playback format that's pretty much the LaserDisc format of this era.


Must Agree here!!
I think Digital Distribution is the future
Sony has seen the light and dropped that horrible "UMD" Disk format
an will implement digital distribution for fall content for the next generation of PSP hand helds.

SheepFactory
07-24-2009, 09:06 PM
As far as BluRay is concerned...As an independent I'm not concerned at all. BluRay is a D.O.A playback format that's pretty much the LaserDisc format of this era.


I think the numbers kinda disagree with your opinion:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6651924.html

Imhotep397
07-24-2009, 09:07 PM
And where's that supposed Shake successor :D ...

Probably won't be out until after Snow Leopard like the 64-bit Final Cut Studio. I'm actually surprised they released a version of Final Cut before Snow Leopard, but I guess the new hardware had been waiting too long already.

Lone Deranger
07-24-2009, 09:10 PM
I'd rather see all media requiring some form of mechanical device go the way of the Dodo. Optical media in particular is slow, noisy, unreliable (better not scratch those backup discs), big and much more prone to wear and tear.
If there must be some form of physical distribution for media, I'd prefer something like SDXC instead. Especially where space is at a premium, like laptops. Imagine all the space you'd save tearing out that DVD/BR drive, and what could be done with it.


Must Agree here!!
I think Digital Distribution is the future
Sony has seen the light and dropped that horrible "UMD" Disk format
an will implement digital distribution for fall content for the next generation of PSP hand helds.

CiaranM
07-24-2009, 09:13 PM
I think the numbers kinda disagree with your opinion:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6651924.html

My internet connection disagrees with his opinion too.

Gentle Fury
07-24-2009, 09:34 PM
Too bad you have to be out of your mind to buy one of the mac pros required to enjoy these.


I have a high end mac pro....im not out of my mind. ;)

As for blu-ray.....it is around for now, but it won't have the era that DVD had....it will be gone in a few years. Download is the way to go...I hate optical media...it's slow, it's fragile, its just not good! Once we get to the point where streaming full HD is a plausible platform we will start to see plug in boxes with full hd VOD.....as I see it if you pay the purchase price you should be able to watch it as often as you like, and if you pay a rental price you can watch it once. Simple as that....why do we need personal archival media, when they are SO crazy about anti-piracy?? You sell something a physical disk with the media encoded onto it people WILL bootleg it! Allow them to affordably watch it (maybe even a netflix style monthly fee) and piracy will dramatically decrease. Remember piracy is seldom about being cheap...it is about a few things....shortening the time it takes to watch the movie, not paying for a movie people said was crap to begin with, and to not have to go to the store to purchase something that is seriously overpriced! Look at what happened with iTunes. Music piracy was extremely high...iTunes came along and people started buying music again. Same will happen with movies.

Seraca
07-24-2009, 10:10 PM
I'd rather see all media requiring some form of mechanical device go the way of the Dodo. Optical media in particular is slow, noisy, unreliable (better not scratch those backup discs), big and much more prone to wear and tear.
If there must be some form of physical distribution for media, I'd prefer something like SDXC instead. Especially where space is at a premium, like laptops. Imagine all the space you'd save tearing out that DVD/BR drive, and what could be done with it.


Yeah the new "PSP GO" will have 16 gigs
of storage in the base model
But with movies it will take while to convince Old people and Die hard "Collectors" who dont realize/care that they are paying $6 USD for their movie Disc and $17 for Colorful environmentally unsound packaging not to mention the wasted physical space in your flat that your DVD "Collection" requires.

John-S
07-24-2009, 10:45 PM
I am REALLY looking forward to hearing about what is coming of Shake. I expected to hear some type of info by now so I'm a little nervous! Aren't they kinda losing all their market share by this point? I realize its cheap but its also unsupported which I'm guessing is pretty important to alot of folks. Plus studios have probably shifted there pipelines and training into other programs. I really don't see why they didn't just keep Shake development going slightly while building its replacement that way they retain market share. Is my thinking really off on this from a production house point of view?

As far as digital downloads etc. I love them (especially with how quick older tv series are getting released now) but my only beef with them is that I like to be able to loan a friend a dvd out of my dvd collection. Or hand "mom" a hand full of kids dvd's to play in the van or something while watching my babies. I also miss DVD extra's etc. I prefer everything on my iphone, apple tv, dvr, etc but there is just some hiccups that I wish were addressed to make things easier.

Makes me think of how much I loved this whole magic jack/high speed internet/cable/phone stuff. It just all made sense and was so cheap! Then all of a sudden my Comcast goes out and I lose Cable, Phone and Internet. Just a slight hiccup I never thought about as it was all getting installed and I was bragging...LOL.

aaraaf
07-24-2009, 10:56 PM
A little side note... Laserdisc was around for about 10 years, just about as long as DVD before the HD formats hit. Download options just don't look as nice as Blu Ray, especially on a large 1080p TV. I use both depending on what it is.

Apple's got some nice user stuff in their video apps that I wish Adobe did... They're definitely keeping those guys on their toes!

SheepFactory
07-24-2009, 11:50 PM
I have a high end mac pro....im not out of my mind. ;)

As for blu-ray.....it is around for now, but it won't have the era that DVD had....it will be gone in a few years. Download is the way to go...I hate optical media...it's slow, it's fragile, its just not good! Once we get to the point where streaming full HD is a plausible platform we will start to see plug in boxes with full hd VOD.....as I see it if you pay the purchase price you should be able to watch it as often as you like, and if you pay a rental price you can watch it once. Simple as that....why do we need personal archival media, when they are SO crazy about anti-piracy?? You sell something a physical disk with the media encoded onto it people WILL bootleg it! Allow them to affordably watch it (maybe even a netflix style monthly fee) and piracy will dramatically decrease. Remember piracy is seldom about being cheap...it is about a few things....shortening the time it takes to watch the movie, not paying for a movie people said was crap to begin with, and to not have to go to the store to purchase something that is seriously overpriced! Look at what happened with iTunes. Music piracy was extremely high...iTunes came along and people started buying music again. Same will happen with movies.


Itunes impact is smaller than a ripple a pebble makes in a river as far as reversing piracy goes. This is all very well documented and is a google search away.

Also it is nice to want things but blu ray is here to stay. You guys said the same thing when the format launched since then they have quadrupled their sales and user base year over year. The players are priced low enough for the consumer to invest in now. I do buy DD movies and shows when I feel like it but you are kidding yourself if you think DD is going to replace Physical media anytime soon.

ThirdEye
07-24-2009, 11:52 PM
I do buy DD movies and shows when I feel like it but you are kidding yourself if you think DD is going to replace Physical media anytime soon.

QFA
___________

Imhotep397
07-25-2009, 12:53 AM
I think the numbers kinda disagree with your opinion:

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6651924.html

Ha!

(here's something to put into perspective for you)

Total Sales numbers of DVD players as of 2007:
131,902,035
(http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html)

Total Sales numbers of BluRay Players as of 2009:
10,500,000

DVD represented the major breakthrough and BluRay is a new fad. The other major issue is that probably significantly more than third, probably closer to half or maybe even more of the BluRay units sold are Playstations which aren't primarily for watching movies. Sony will probably release a PS3 that doesn't have BluRay player some point soon and the next Playstation is not slated to have BluRay, so the numbers will level out and probably drop dramatically pretty early after the Playstation changes and it probably won't grow much after that.

I like the convenience of streaming HD, but I like going to stores to get my media. I like the idea of going into the Virgin Megastore at Times Square and actually walking out with something in my hands among throngs of REAL PEOPLE and lots of attractive live women. I hate the idea of Times Square or any other major shopping area being half open because everyone's "Plugged-in" to the net for all of their media needs. It's odd having watched so many sci-fi films that are a precursor to the horror of being too reliant on computer programming solutions for everything and to see that development happening anyway. I have no interest in becoming a Wall-E style pod person plugged into the net for everything. BluRay will not turn the tide, it's just not that significant...it's an improved version of something that's not broken (a solution in search of a problem if you will). I would be happy to see an optical format inside of a protective cartridge. That wouldn't turn the tide but it would make optical media far more durable like archiving optical media of the past that was warranted for like a hundred years or something ridiculous like that, it would help.

Per-Anders
07-25-2009, 01:19 AM
Ha!

(here's something to put into perspective for you)

Total Sales numbers of DVD players as of 2007:
131,902,035
(http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articles/cemadvdsales.html)

Total Sales numbers of BluRay Players as of 2009:
10,500,000


Erm.. how does that prove anything except that sheep is right? Those are total sales since launch. DVD has been going since the 90's. You don't say if the bluray numbers are since launch or for this year (or give a source), either way they're good numbers, dvd took 3-4 years to break the 10 mil mark (both per year and grand total), I believe BluRay may be in the same range, at a point where yes things are much more challenging for any media format.

SheepFactory
07-25-2009, 04:28 AM
Thanks for proving my point Imhotep. The blu ray attach rate and sales are much higher than what DVD accomplished in the same time frame. Every studio is backing it %100 now and they are very happy with the results (Again this is actual factual info you can find in the studio quarterly sales results and press releases). This will only get better as more HD sets gets sold.

DoubleSupercool
07-25-2009, 11:03 AM
In Australia, I pay $115/mth for ADSL1 (8,000megabits, or around 1meg/sec absolute max, more like 500k max) and 55gig capped downloads (shaped to slightly faster than dial up speeds). I live 10km away from the CBD of Australia's second biggest city.

How big are them there 1080p downloads again?

cheebamonkey
07-26-2009, 03:36 AM
A shake successor would have to be really really good, better than nuke as its multiplatform to even stand a chance?

apple will never EVER make one of their pro apps multiplatform. Their point is to have you join their "family" from hardware to software and everything in between.

Nuke pretty much has it sowed up now, and they can thank Apple for that whole giving up on that Shake thing. ;)

John-S
07-26-2009, 03:48 AM
Shake is on Linux and used to be on windows correct?

I wouldn't be suprised to see the new shake run on Linux too. Maybe I'm thinking silly, I don't know but I think compositing software might be their exception...

fuzzylizard
07-26-2009, 05:34 AM
I have to disagree with those people who say that physical media is on the way out and download content is the wave of the future. I with bandwidth caps becoming a reality all over the world and internet costs starting to go through the roof, it just isn't feasible for download content to take over physical media right now.

I have a 100Gig download limit per month and I am not going to waste that on 4 1080p movies. I still need to check my email. In addition, if I want to watch a downloaded movie Saturday night, I need to think about it Monday morning in order to guarantee that it downloads in time.

Download content will not take over physical media until we have the infrastructure to support it and that means fiber to the door and unlimited bandwidth. The problem is that a lot of ISPs in a lot of countries are moving in the other direction and making large downloads (1080p large) a thing of the past. And this does not take into consideration packet shaping or other techniques used to further limit large downloads.

John-S
07-26-2009, 06:23 AM
just wanna clear up... when I say "take over" I don't mean to completely get rid of every other form of media. I just mean majority. There will always be those who live in a place with crap internet etc.

I'm not strong set in either direction...

As far as internet connection. Thats where I have a little misunderstanding. My internet went from 6mb to 28mb's download with no price difference over the course of a couple months... Your's is more expensive???

KayosIII
07-26-2009, 08:20 AM
Shake is on Linux and used to be on windows correct?

I wouldn't be suprised to see the new shake run on Linux too. Maybe I'm thinking silly, I don't know but I think compositing software might be their exception...

Logic also was cross platform before Apple bought it. If Apple can get away with dumping Shake on Linux it will. Apple practically gives away the hardware when you buy the Mac Version of Shake the difference in price is so rediculous.

imashination
07-26-2009, 04:51 PM
The vast vast vast majority of those bluray players are just PS3 consoles. All the people I know that have one either own no bluray movies at all, or they own one, didnt care and just bought dvds anyway.

Ive got a player, it was frankly a waste of money and I of all people am a sucker for eking out that final bit of definition in audio and video. But the reality is, I could barely tell the difference between an upscaled dvd and the bluray version. certainly no where near enough to justify paying £30 for a movie that I could buy for £3 on dvd.

imashination
07-26-2009, 04:53 PM
In Australia, I pay $115/mth for ADSL1 (8,000megabits, or around 1meg/sec absolute max, more like 500k max) and 55gig capped downloads (shaped to slightly faster than dial up speeds). I live 10km away from the CBD of Australia's second biggest city.

How big are them there 1080p downloads again?

Blimey Sheila!

£18 a month for 22 down, 3 up. No throttling or bandwidth caps.

SheepFactory
07-26-2009, 04:59 PM
But the reality is, I could barely tell the difference between an upscaled dvd and the bluray version. certainly no where near enough to justify paying £30 for a movie that I could buy for £3 on dvd.


I like anecdotal evidence too! I know people who have standalone BR players and own upwards of 100 blu ray movies on them. I guess we can do this back and forth or just look at factual sales data which shows that it is selling quite well so some of those ps3 owners must be buying them.

Regarding the quality, you must have a pretty crappy tv. I have yet to meet someone who cant tell the difference when you pop in planet earth, bladerunner, any pixar movie , etc. PS3 is one of the best dvd upscalers money can buy yet it is nowhere near the quality you get from blu ray.

Also blu rays in states and canada now range from $12 to $19 for most movies in stores. I dont remember paying $30 for a movie in a long time if you can wait a couple months after it releases.

Seraca
07-26-2009, 08:13 PM
just wanna clear up... when I say "take over" I don't mean to completely get rid of every other form of media. I just mean majority. There will always be those who live in a place with crap internet etc.

I'm not strong set in either direction...





QFA
There are still pockets of civilization using Audio Cassette's but that does not change the reality that it is a DEAD Format
now is Bluray DAO??.. Probably not
but it is likely the last of the cumbersome
RIDICULOUSLY PACKAGED physical formats for home movie watching so im just going to skip this one altogether.

Imhotep397
07-26-2009, 09:44 PM
Erm.. how does that prove anything except that sheep is right?...

Uh...no the market is saturated already and 131 million+ people are not going to replace their working DVD players with BluRay players which is what would have to happen. For the most part when the current user's DVD players break they won't pay atleast 4x the cost to get a BluRay player. When there's a high quality new $59 BluRay player BluRay will be able to chew into that massive installed base, which will probably never happen before another bigger and better format is released or DD becomes a preferred option. Guys like Sheep can rely on shady numbers that include computer players/burners and videogame systems not purchased for playing movies that won't support the format in the near future. Once the next Playstation without BluRay is released and Sony builds a non-BluRay PS3 BluRay will suffer the same fate as HD-DVD.

JDex
07-26-2009, 09:51 PM
Uh...no the market is saturated already and 131 million+ people are not going to replace their working DVD players with BluRay players which is what would have to happen..
My experiences, with regular consumers - not early adopters and technophiles - leads me to the conclusion that you're simply wrong on this point. Everyone (even in a shit economy) is flocking in droves to get 1080p screens, and replacing DVD players (for Netflix/rentals). Most don't intend to replace their DVD collections, but will not buy new DVDs.

BR =/= DOA

SheepFactory
07-26-2009, 10:43 PM
Uh...no the market is saturated already and 131 million+ people are not going to replace their working DVD players with BluRay players which is what would have to happen. For the most part when the current user's DVD players break they won't pay atleast 4x the cost to get a BluRay player. When there's a high quality new $59 BluRay player BluRay will be able to chew into that massive installed base, which will probably never happen before another bigger and better format is released or DD becomes a preferred option. Guys like Sheep can rely on shady numbers that include computer players/burners and videogame systems not purchased for playing movies that won't support the format in the near future. Once the next Playstation without BluRay is released and Sony builds a non-BluRay PS3 BluRay will suffer the same fate as HD-DVD.


Shady numbers? lol

They are from the quarterly financial results movie companies announce for their investors. They are much more factual than the unfounded anecdotal evidence and personal opinions you have been posting. Apparently you already know the specs of the ps4, care telling us some more about future trends?

Imhotep397
07-26-2009, 11:12 PM
Interesting reading, for the BlueRay zealots in particular:

Blu-ray sales are stagnating. What’s to blame? (http://features.csmonitor.com/innovation/2009/06/22/blu-ray-sales-are-stagnating-whats-to-blame/)

By Matthew Shaer | 06.22.09 (http://features.csmonitor.com/innovation/2009/06/22/blu-ray-sales-are-stagnating-whats-to-blame/)


Analysis: No Blu-ray on Macs, and nobody cares (http://apcmag.com/analysis_no_bluray_on_macs_and_nobody_cares.htm)

30 September 2008 (http://apcmag.com/analysis_no_bluray_on_macs_and_nobody_cares.htm)



With 50,000 movie rentals a day on iTunes, plus DVD sales, plus Netflix, plus cable, small dish, FIOS, DD etc. BluRay doesn't stand a chance unless the pricing changes and it's always been intended that BluRay would be a "Higher Price Brand", hence the ridiculous licensing for distributors. The high cost of Blue laser technology was a known factor before the development of the format and it was seen as the major obstacle to lowering prices on hardware into the DVD range to begin with. The cost was seen as probably the limiting factor to widespread adoption from the beginning and they moved forward anyway. The high price of BluRay hardware is going to be the price for the forseeable future unless they are willing to take major losses on the hardware. My guess is that in a year we'll start seeing the capacity for red laser based DVD triple based on one of many technologies that have already been "Out There" for quite some time so people will have a High Definition format at the same price point as current DVD player price points and probably even Sony will support it.

Imhotep397
07-26-2009, 11:13 PM
...care telling us some more about future trends?

Aside from the fact that Intel is building it which sounds like they are dumping the Cell architecture?

Seraca
07-27-2009, 01:06 AM
Some of Those reader comments after that
Mathew Shaer Article are pretty funny.:thumbsup:


Great Links Imhotep!!

SheepFactory
07-27-2009, 01:25 AM
Aside from the fact that Intel is building it which sounds like they are dumping the Cell architecture?


I dont think "fact" means what you think it means imhotep.

Also here is a thread for you to check out with actual weekly sales info. It's a bit more current than the selectively found blog article you posted.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=798272&page=230

Keep the laughs coming!

earwax69
07-27-2009, 02:08 AM
As for Apple, I would like them to concentrate fixing the poor compression in QT (especially h264) and fix those shifting colors. Sad I have to use third-party softwares to get the right colors when sending Quicktimes to my clients.

For me, Apple is now more an Ipod/Iphone marketing company. Im very happy with my Iphone but as far as post-production goes, Apple is often creating problems more than helping.

Lone Deranger
07-27-2009, 02:18 AM
Indeed, they seem to have lost their way a bit from a Pro/Artist's perspective. Which is regrettable to say the least.



For me, Apple is now more an Ipod/Iphone marketing company. Im very happy with my Iphone but as far as post-production goes, Apple is often creating problems more than helping.

Rezonance
07-27-2009, 02:31 AM
Wow this thread is off-topic! My thoughts:


Cant see Sony ditching Blu-Ray for the Ps4. It would seem like a step back in Technology, and those next gen games will need the storage space. Xbox is creaking at the seams with DVDs for some games.
It would also kill any backwards compatibility. Bad idea.
Judging from the facts and figures, Blu-Ray is doing well for a launch format.
Download media will one day beat out disks but not any time soon. A library of even just 20 movies would take up far too much space. And with download movies comes the hassle of a suitable DRM scheme. At least with a disc you can physically own the movie and play it where you want.
I dont see a single format market (either Blu-Ray or download) I see a hybrid market, with Blu-Ray potentially edging ahead for a while once players become cheap, then downloads taking over once storage becomes cheap and bandwidth becomes cheaper.
Blu-Ray is likely the last of the major disc formats for mainstream adoption.
My major attraction to Blu-Ray is using it as a format to back up files. Near 50 Gig on a disc sounds awesome and 200Gig sounds even better.

fuzzylizard
07-27-2009, 02:34 AM
I find it interesting that most of the people heralding the death of Blue-Ray and that download is the future all live in the US. There are still tonnes of places in the world with download caps and incredibly expensive internet. In addition, I would be interested in knowing if all the numbers being thrown around are world wide or just for the US.

JDex
07-27-2009, 02:42 AM
And with that :banghead: post, now we can move on to more relevant discussion...

Windows vs. Linux anyone? :cry:

- - - - - -

I've been looking over the offering. Can't see much of notable usefulness in the FCP release, but Logic seems to have some useful new features.

salmonmoose
07-27-2009, 07:46 AM
In Australia, I pay $115/mth for ADSL1 (8,000megabits, or around 1meg/sec absolute max, more like 500k max) and 55gig capped downloads (shaped to slightly faster than dial up speeds). I live 10km away from the CBD of Australia's second biggest city.

How big are them there 1080p downloads again?

I'm paying $120 for 80gig capped DSL2+ I'm 25km away from Adelaide, and am currently synced at over 17mb/s. Internet is bad in Australia, but in most cases not that bad. HD downloads clock in at around 4-6gig.

The issue is not the size - most a-grade ISPs will cache the content locally and serve the bandwidth free (I get Steam, and some HD video already for nothing).

Kabab
07-27-2009, 08:01 AM
Wow this thread is off-topic! My thoughts:



Cant see Sony ditching Blu-Ray for the Ps4. It would seem like a step back in Technology, and those next gen games will need the storage space. Xbox is creaking at the seams with DVDs for some games.

Why?


It wouldn't surprise me at all if next gen consoles have no physical media connection at all. I think the entire content distribution will be done via an online service, bypassing all that retail crap, physical media puts an end to piracy and makes the entire venture more profitable for Sony.


Remember the bottom line is to make $$$$.


I'd love to see some numbers to see if blueray has returned any profit for Sony.

Seraca
07-27-2009, 08:22 AM
- - - - - -

I've been looking over the offering. Can't see much of notable usefulness in the FCP release, but Logic seems to have some useful new features.


I Agree, im still running FCP-5 over here.

Honestly Have'nt Nonlinear video Editors sor of fully "matured" at this point?? what else can you add to them besides more compositing features and support for any new Video Formats.

Venkman
07-27-2009, 02:01 PM
I find it interesting that most of the people heralding the death of Blue-Ray and that download is the future all live in the US. There are still tonnes of places in the world with download caps and incredibly expensive internet. In addition, I would be interested in knowing if all the numbers being thrown around are world wide or just for the US.

Oh right, I forgot, to an American, the US is the whole world.

I agree that digital download is a way off from replacing physical media, but not all Americans are bad. Please be nice.

podperson
07-27-2009, 04:34 PM
As for the death of Bluray:

Bluray currently maxes out at 50GB for about $20 -- which is far more expensive than hard disk space (and probably has a far worse MTBF). And I'd much rather dump everything on a bunch of redundant giant hard disks than create a pile of shoddily labeled BDs to go next to my shoddily labelled DVDs and CD-Rs and Iomega Zip disks and Syquests that I can never find when I need something.

The fact that Bluray keeps evolving (quad layer, six layer, etc.) will actually fragment the market and will slow adoption. One DVD will work in any DVD player modulo stupid region code crap, and one DVD-ROM will work in any DVD-drive. A CD-ROM works almost anywhere.

Hard disk space generally gets cheaper a LOT faster than optical media (look at CD-Rs and DVD-Rs -- in 1993 a CD-Writer was ~$1000 and a blank CD was ~$5, while a top-of-the-line computer shipped with a 300MB hard disk (that cost over $1000); similarly DVD-Rs were very price-competitive with hard drives when they first appeared. Today, a Blu-ray writer + a blank Bluray disk costs as much as a 1.5TB hard disk.

Oh, and you can buy 4GB keydisks for $10, and 16GB SDHC for $40 -- and both require no expensive component to use, and both will get cheaper faster than Bluray.

The "Americans don't understand bandwidth caps" argument is very true. I remember how annoying it was to deal with Apple's 50MB system patches on a dialup connection, and now it's 250MB patches and 1.5GB XTools versions, blah blah blah. Good grief.

But bandwidth caps won't save Bluray from cheap hard disks, memory sticks, SD cards, and new technologies we haven't even considered, let alone the fact it's a non-solution to a non-problem.

DizzyJ
07-27-2009, 04:43 PM
I may be way of base, but It's my feeling that they (the Apple corporate brass) see software apps as a necessary evil.

I don't get that impression. That's probably true of some software (Shake, alas, being the primary one), but I get a sense of deep pride over Apple's consumer application and FCP. I bet there are a lot of people at Apple who are baffled that people use MS Office when they could use iWork, for example.

Where software runs into trouble at Apple is if it moves too far from the consumer side of things, where the clean and simple interface mantra breaks down. If the Shake team had figured out a way to make the interface more Apple-y without losing it's power, my guess is that it would still be around, instead of Apple seeming to think of Motion as it's successor.

For Apple, software and hardware are too closely related for one to become entirely dominant.

Re: the lack of Blu-Ray, my understanding is that Blu-Ray requires DRM built into the OS as part of copy protection. If so, I doubt Apple will release consumer Blu-Ray play-back.

cheebamonkey
07-28-2009, 12:16 AM
For me, Apple is now more an Ipod/Iphone marketing company. Im very happy with my Iphone but as far as post-production goes, Apple is often creating problems more than helping.

That's their bread and butter now. They believe they can suck people into the cult which will have members buying anything and everything Apple. It is working, unfortunately not for the creative types who actually use Macs for work. The best thing for Apple at this point is to reinvent themselves without Jobs or his top cronies at the helm. Yes, they're successful in marketing and selling gadgets, now move on to bigger and better things.

DizzyJ
07-28-2009, 12:40 AM
The best thing for Apple at this point is to reinvent themselves without Jobs or his top cronies at the helm. Yes, they're successful in marketing and selling gadgets, now move on to bigger and better things.

LOL. Like what? Windfarms? Or maybe they should enter the enormously profitable, unlimited market of CGI software. I heard SideFX's market cap had surpassed Apple's, so it's time Jobs turn that flagging company around and deliver some real profit for his investors.

John-S
07-28-2009, 12:42 AM
Guys, I realize that there is alot of people in the forum that don't choose to use Apple computers but I think we should take it easy on their pro apps teams. Apple may be selling a bagillion iphones, ipods etc but I don't think people should assume that those products take away from the development or focus of the pro apps. They are an entirely separate team with probley an entirely separate budget thats probley going up more then its going down.

Personally I'm disappointed that there isn't a couple things that I'd like to see in the new FCS but it doesn't mean that the pro apps team been sitting on their butts. They still are holding up some of the most adopted pro software titles in the pro industry.

As far as adding features, tracking bugs and communication with its customers... Lets not kid ourselves. Lets look at Autodesk... they release a new version of Maya (8?) which breaks the split poly tool. One of the most used features of the program! If you call them up or use their support online they tell you that you need to fill out a bug report EVEN though they know of the problem because those things are repaired by priority based on the number of reports. Seriously? Such an odvious feature and I have to go through the trouble of doing a seperate bug report even though I am telling them right then and there??? It took them over 5 months I believe to get a fix for that! And thats just my little minor irratation. We all know that Autodesk has a huge list of complaints from how they choose to handle incidents, releases etc.

Pixologic lies to their customers on SEVERAL occasions and leads their customers on for YEARS without giving them updates. They tell you NOTHING. Everybody is sooo willing to forgive.

Then we have apple who I have actually heard the least complaints about in terms of bugs etc but because they make iPhones and other consumer devices then their products must be getting worse and worse and should be not taken as seriously? No. It may seem minor but there is a whole lot of updates in this new FCS that alot of people are thrilled about. This software is used to edit Oscar nominated films etc and is less then $2,000 bucks. I'm not saying it doesn't have issues... it obviously does. But ALL these pro apps companies have just as many issues and disappointing releases. And at least we don't have to worry about Apple selling off Final Cut Pro or something to Autodesk like just about every other 3D company...LOL.

My main point is not an apple vs pc argument but just pointing out that Apple still has a pro apps team back there working their @$$'s off and doesn't deserve to be bashed because of consumer product sales.

earwax69
07-28-2009, 12:45 AM
Oh right, I forgot, to an American, the US is the whole world.

Here a quote from Obama's officials this morning in the news: "The president was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, the 50th state of the greatest country on the face of the earth. He's a citizen."

Funny because it really sound like something China or North Korea would say. You colleagues from the US dont feel a little embarassed when earing such blatant boasting?

More on topic, I think bluray format will be an excellent back-up solution for data. I feel way safer to backup stuff on disk than on old (or new) hard-drives.

I didnt know SideFX was doing so well... its great! Houdini look like a killer app. I wish Adobe would kick their ass a bit more too.

snku
07-28-2009, 01:23 AM
i come into this thread to read about the new fcp studio and i end up reading shit like the comment above. are you guys like 13 years old. go do your homework and go to bed.

edit: looks like you edited your post as i was posting.
but still there are too many comments around here that are extremely off-topic. it's like there is no reason really to read past the starting post around here anymore, as far as news goes.

Per-Anders
07-28-2009, 01:27 AM
Here a quote from Obama's officials this morning in the news: "The president was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, the 50th state of the greatest country on the face of the earth. He's a citizen."

Funny because it really sound like something China or North Korea would say. You colleagues from the US dont feel a little embarassed when earing such blatant boasting?


Please keep your politics off of CGTalk.

DizzyJ
07-28-2009, 04:47 AM
I didnt know SideFX was doing so well... its great! Houdini look like a killer app. I wish Adobe would kick their ass a bit more too.

I have no idea how well they are doing: I'm pretty sure they don't have a market cap at all because they're a privately-held company. But given that Autodesk paid $182M for Alias and Apple has a market cap of $142B, I'm confident Apple is worth orders of magnitude more than SideFX (Autodesk has a market cap of $5B, Adobe $17B). In short, I was being sarcastic.

However, in checking facts for this post, I ran into this hilarious article (http://www.bloggingstocks.com/2009/03/04/apple-market-cap-higher-than-ge-a-speculative-buyout-menu-for-a/) about what Apple could buy with their hordes of cash and massive market cap. The list includes ALL the major hotel chains in the U.S.

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