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View Full Version : Spaceclaim adds multitouch modeling.GFX apps getting behind?


Bullit
07-23-2009, 09:47 AM
Spaceclaim a CAD application presented multitouch modeling that will be added to that application latter this year. Anything like this for our 3D apps?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kdkxqgbXaSI&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Efreecad%2Enet%2Fmain%2Fforums%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D3586&feature=player_embedded

Cheesestraws
07-23-2009, 10:09 AM
Autodesk has shown multi-touch in Mudbox.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wh1Qy6OvI1A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9qDXTJvlXk

I don't think multi-touch will have much of an impact any time soon in our markets.

Bullit
07-23-2009, 10:51 AM
Thanks for your pointer. Didn't know that.

Phrenzy84
07-23-2009, 11:27 AM
Its looks to me that sensitivity will be one of two major issues. The other one being, will artist really want to model this way (in mudbox's case). I looks like there isnt much control over what people can achieve with tablets.

I would guess the future will probably bring cheaper/thinner and more flexible cintqs, with possible multitouch support as an added bonus not as a primary method of content creation (even that would be a stretch because of the cintqs thick protective cover).

aadams
07-23-2009, 03:11 PM
I think the next big leap will be when people can model in the same modelling application at the same time....Like if 2+ users were in the same 3d modelling/scuplting environment.

with one server continually updating the result.

aglick
07-23-2009, 03:20 PM
multi-touch will be just one of the many new ways we will begin to interact with our computers over the next few years.

I sense an impending explosion of new human-computer interfaces coming to marjket for commercial use.

Pyke
07-23-2009, 03:22 PM
It looks sorta like finger painting as opposed to using a pencil. You just get more precision out of a mouse/tablet.

cbamber85
07-23-2009, 06:02 PM
I think the next big leap will be when people can model in the same modelling application at the same time....Like if 2+ users were in the same 3d modelling/scuplting environment.

with one server continually updating the result.I think you're right, my Uni had a big automotive design department and you often saw a few people working on scuplting a single clay vehicle. I think the biggest change in 3D software interfacing will come with the maturation of VR systems. The recent leaps and bounds in stereoscopy should accelerate this change.

PixelTricks
07-23-2009, 06:19 PM
I think touch surfaces are interesting but I don't see the advantage over a mouse. There is nothing in that demo that could not be done just as easy with a mouse.

I think touch surfaces are better used for things like menus, or manipulating things on a desktop, but not so good for working with points and polygons.

Like gaming I can't see people playing a fps shooter with fingers on the screen.



How do you keep the display clean ? My monitor gets smudges just from the occasional touch of a finger.

DanielWray
07-23-2009, 06:25 PM
You can already have two users in one application, the protocol is called verse and it works (AFAIK) on a mutlitude of software applications, from 3D modeling apps to 2D painting apps.

Multi-touch would be a very nice addition to a cintiq, the ability to use the precession point of the pen for sculpting/ painting and your free left/ or right hand to rotate/ zoom the view, press buttons, move sliders etc, will all make it a little easier.

gruhn
07-23-2009, 07:02 PM
> There is nothing in that demo that could not be done just as easy with a mouse.

Disagree.

There is nothing in that demo that couldn't be done easier with a mouse. And with less fatigue. And without marking up the screen. And without getting my hands in the way of my work.

MAYBE if the display had really good haptic feedback.

Of course, it's likely one reason there is nothing in that demo that couldn't be done with a mouse is that they didn't write an app to take advantage of multitouch, they merely wrote some multitouch to control an existing app. You can't expect interface innovation during the "hey, can we get this data in here?" stage. I am reminded of how long it took before I saw drag and drop applied to moving selected text in a word processor. "The mouse is for selection. Cut and paste are for moving."

What does touch bring? You wave your arms around in order to specify a point on screen instead of waving a mouse around. I don't think that is an advantage. You can control more than one point at a time. That could be an advantage. So far, it's only being used trivially. In this demo it pretty much pinned corners and specified axes. Familiar behaviours on a keyboard. The classic "rotate and scale a photo" demo is not really new, but it's not something we tend to do with mice. Probably because of ambiguity. Two point control makes the difference between scale and rotate intent far more evident and the software can respond more predicably.

There's a degree to which you're limited by the simple fact that the screen is 2d.

Still, we'll see what people come up with in future. For my money the "flapping your arms around" aspect will be the deciding factor.

vlad
07-24-2009, 06:17 PM
> There is nothing in that demo that could not be done just as easy with a mouse.

Disagree.

There is nothing in that demo that couldn't be done easier with a mouse. And with less fatigue. And without marking up the screen. And without getting my hands in the way of my work.

MAYBE if the display had really good haptic feedback.

Of course, it's likely one reason there is nothing in that demo that couldn't be done with a mouse is that they didn't write an app to take advantage of multitouch, they merely wrote some multitouch to control an existing app. You can't expect interface innovation during the "hey, can we get this data in here?" stage. I am reminded of how long it took before I saw drag and drop applied to moving selected text in a word processor. "The mouse is for selection. Cut and paste are for moving."

What does touch bring? You wave your arms around in order to specify a point on screen instead of waving a mouse around. I don't think that is an advantage. You can control more than one point at a time. That could be an advantage. So far, it's only being used trivially. In this demo it pretty much pinned corners and specified axes. Familiar behaviours on a keyboard. The classic "rotate and scale a photo" demo is not really new, but it's not something we tend to do with mice. Probably because of ambiguity. Two point control makes the difference between scale and rotate intent far more evident and the software can respond more predicably.

There's a degree to which you're limited by the simple fact that the screen is 2d.

Still, we'll see what people come up with in future. For my money the "flapping your arms around" aspect will be the deciding factor.

QFA
And try holding your arms up for a certain amount of time. Depending on your actual physical condition, you'll get tired at some point. Not to mention the lack of precision caused by the absence of resting points for your elbows or wrists. Until we're able to actually sculpt on a virtual 3D model with mocap gloves or similar tech, I fail to see the advantages of this particular method over a mouse/tablet. And those greasy smudges all over...

LucentDreams
07-25-2009, 02:12 AM
so inefficient the extra multi tasking to keep track of all your fingers and their proximity to the screen while interacting its not a natural behavior. If you want an Iphone/Ipod Touch user, they typically will use one finger from each hand or often just one finger when working with the device the majority of the time, and it works well because the hand gestures don't require full arm movement. Large format multi touch is more for communal sessions presentations and the likes not for fine fidelity work like 3D modeling.

Imhotep397
07-25-2009, 02:20 PM
I don't see this as being very practical, because there are a couple of really major obstacles. 3D applications developers rely heavily on the real proportional space of today's monitors to build interfaces. Pushing tools to the exterior of the screen is critical to leave the center of the screen open for work and that's always been necessary in art regardless of medium. If you have a twenty foot wide screen having tools all pushed to the outside of the screen quickly becomes a chore to work with. With 3D apps the ingenious thing that's been developed is the combination of keyboard keys and mouse/stylus movements not only to execute manipulation commands, but also to separate executed manipulation commands from navigation input commands. You would have to have a "Painter's Palette" to begin to make things easier and even then for 3D that would be problematic because because the user would lose most of the use of one hand. The bigger the screen the bigger the headache will be, but I can see a lot of value in integrating multitouch in a Wacom Cintiq style tablet up to 35". Being able to distinguish a stylus touch from a finger touch could change the whole ball game.

MasonDoran
07-26-2009, 09:35 PM
i can see a lot of cool stuffing coming out of this....years to come though because its both hardware and software required.

Imagine animating, with one finger holding the pivot, and the other controlling the arc of the movement.

Or sculpting, one can orbit with one hand and manipulate surface with the other.

aglick
07-26-2009, 10:17 PM
or imagine a 3D design paradigm that incorporated multi-touch, gestural analysis, VR/AR (augmented reality), eye/gaze tracking, voice command, etc. All combined into a nified user input system.

Now your getting into "emergent (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergence)" human-computer interaction models where adding a few relatively simple input signals can combine in unimagiably efficient (and simultaneously complex) ways. NObody can predict what will happen. But I can predict that it WILL happen. And that it WILL fundamentally change the way you guys are doing stuff.

Yes, we're a few years off from this type of system being availble commercially, but we're now seeing a "quickening" in research and development with an eye towards commercial uses for this.

Goon
07-26-2009, 11:29 PM
With a multi-touch cintiq, we could have virtual, adaptive keyboards, widgets, and very fluid interfaces that would allow us to move away from the keyboard. This would be incredible! I hate working and then needing to reach for the keyboard or hunt through a menu. With a multi-touch screen, it would be much closer to an intuitive, seamless experience. Our hands are very dexterous and can be put to better uses than a keyboard provides. Plus, simply being able to use your fingers directly provides a wonderful psychological connection to the program.

DoubleSupercool
07-27-2009, 12:10 AM
Pixar research paper on multi-touch input.

http://graphics.pixar.com/library/MultiTargetUserStudyA/paper.pdf

As a compositor it would be a dream to have a fully interactive surface that could use more than one input. Of course 2D is different to 3D, but multitouch would speed up workflow considerably in my opinion.

mynewcat
07-27-2009, 01:00 PM
i can see a lot of cool stuffing coming out of this....years to come though because its both hardware and software required.

Imagine animating, with one finger holding the pivot, and the other controlling the arc of the movement.

Or sculpting, one can orbit with one hand and manipulate surface with the other.

So like using a mouse and keyboard combination?

BigPixolin
07-27-2009, 01:17 PM
So like using a mouse and keyboard combination?
But in a more natural form for the human body and not in a so un-natural form as clawing a mouse and keyboard. Plus you are doing a 1:1 interaction with the model. Not some disembodied motions that arent even what you are really doing.(If that wording makes any sense)

mynewcat
07-27-2009, 02:02 PM
But in a more natural form for the human body and not in a so un-natural form as clawing a mouse and keyboard. Plus you are doing a 1:1 interaction with the model. Not some disembodied motions that arent even what you are really doing.(If that wording makes any sense)

I dont buy into this - firstly, even when using "real" models the modelers are using tools to cut and manipulate - so there will always be that tool/human interface.

Secondly, studies have shown that the brain adapts to tool usage and thinks of it as part of the body

http://www.scientificamerican.com/podcast/episode.cfm?id=0CBE4135-FC07-22EA-D9E01ED5B93E98A0

So for those of us who treat keyboard and mouse commands as instictive and second nature I dont think there is a problem. (eg everyone)

chewedon
07-27-2009, 02:14 PM
I think the next big leap will be when people can model in the same modelling application at the same time....Like if 2+ users were in the same 3d modelling/scuplting environment.

with one server continually updating the result.

We already have that.

In Blender, there's a technology called "Verse".

It's a collaborative function that allows multiple people to work on the same model at the same time. Not very stable the last time I tried it, especially when you're doing big operation like sculpting between two users, opposite to each other on the world. Tend to crash the session.

Think Maya also has it, so I was told a long time ago.

Kabab
07-28-2009, 01:53 AM
I see it more useful for end-user app's like kiosks etc..

MasonDoran
07-28-2009, 12:22 PM
what keyboard/mouse CANNOT do which the Cintiq achieves is use the muscle memory and gestural nature ingrained in every artist.

When an artist draws, he is trained to use his elbow and shoulder as a pivot to create natural arcs. To make arcs go in an opposite direction, he either rotates the surface or his body to compensate.

All of this is impossible, when limited to only wrist movements when using a mouse, and to a certain degree a stylus.

gruhn
07-28-2009, 04:06 PM
What aspect of the Cintique makes it superior for muscle memory over other tablets? Is that eye-work spatial immediacy really that important?

ubermensch76
07-28-2009, 06:22 PM
What aspect of the Cintique makes it superior for muscle memory over other tablets? Is that eye-work spatial immediacy really that important?


Cintiq is great for drawing and inking. Not sure about sculpting and definitely not much advantage in its present stage for painting

MasonDoran
07-29-2009, 10:43 AM
Stylus and Cintiq are fairly equal in performance.

The ergo dynamics of a Cintiq give it a great advantage though because you can rotate the display so that your body movements are the most efficient and are exactly the same as with real media.

You cannot do this on a stylus, so when drawing arcs, you have to often redraw several times to get it right because you cannot move the body in a natural way.

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