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Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 03:17 PM
don't want to start a big controversy here, or a app war, but i'm getting really depressed right now.. It seems that even though the new features of Lightwave 8 are pretty impressive that something isn't right.. IT REALLY GOT TO ME WHEN I SEEN MORE POST ON A TOPIC ABOUT "MODO" THAN ANYTHING ABOUT LIGHTWAVE 8...
i'm not saying that "modo" isn't going to be everything that it's expected to be, but until i looked through the post i thought it was something built exclusively for Lightwave..
I really wish someone could take the time to explain just what it is that lightwave is missing, and what it would take to improve it..
I need to know the advantages and disadvantages it has going for it, and what needs fixed..
I've seen talk of N-gons and things like that, but to be quite honest with you i have no idea what it is, but i would like to know if these things that everyone seems so excited about are going to play a big part in the future of modeling, or animation..

Sorry for ranting, and maybe i'm jumping the gun here, but my initial excitement is really starting to dull down now that i have opened my eyes a little bit..

Mike RB
07-30-2003, 03:19 PM
this is no different than the motion builder threads a while back, and possibly even more of interest to LW users as it is an app created by the original developers of LW. I'm sure things will simmer down after siggraph, and if not I'm sure cgtalk will open a modo forum or lump it in with wings and blender.

Mike

Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 03:25 PM
Nice to hear that coming from you MikeRB, you, and guys like Proton are one of the reasons i have stuck with lightwave so far..I know that other packages have advantages and disadvantages the same as lighwave, I just hope that we can still remain competitive in the time to come...

aurora
07-30-2003, 03:37 PM
From what I have seen so far I'd say LW is getting in position to take ALL the reigns and claims back from that other app! Patience coding takes time and they need our support in order to give us their support with what we want. Wow what the heck did that mean?

jrsunshine
07-30-2003, 03:44 PM
It's a matter of perspective.

Lux is going to add value to LW. Hopefully they will continue with each new product to add value to the LW we all love and use.

MoDo is an exciting new development. It is good for those who wanted Modeller changes. If all you do is model, MoDo might be the thing for you.

But, I don't see LW getting any less visibility. I think LW is rocking the whole show. Again an opinion.

:)

Robert Zeltsch
07-30-2003, 03:53 PM
... and remember: Until now, we have "only" seen cool things like the new dynamics and IK/FK.

What about the other features mentioned in the press release?

- enhancements in [...] modeling workflow
- Animatable UV Coordinates
- Texturing tools
- integration with other popular products

Why should Newtek write wrong things in the press release?
The fact that nobody has seen the other features doesn`t mean that these and other features aren`t existing.

Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 04:13 PM
I think i might be hoping for a bit much... I really hope that they just give us a package that is more than a mere update.. The bone dynamics looks very cool, and i could see alot of use for that stuff..
I hope Motion Designer is made a whole lot better and easier, but not dumbed down to be generic..
I hope the particle systems/ hypervoxels get a MAJOR overhaul.
I hope that the animation system is improved upon.. ( which i think it has been already..)
And i want muscle simulation.. Not cheats but real ILM sh!t..

I just want to be able to use lightwave and nothing else.. To lazy to learn another app..:eek:

discode
07-30-2003, 04:19 PM
Hello Infinity3d4life:

I need to know the advantages and disadvantages it has going for it, and what needs fixed..I've seen talk of N-gons and things like that, but to be quite honest with you i have no idea what it is, but i would like to know if these things that everyone seems so excited about are going to play a big part in the future of modeling, or animation..




N-gon subds are reffering to being able to hit the tab button in Modeler and have your model smooth out even if you have polys with more than 4 sides. This is currently a feature in pretty much all of the other 3d modelers out there. If Modeler had this support it would also mean that Layout would need this implemented as well. The other main issue for most people is having legitimate edge tools. In other words tools to add and remove edges. So for instance instead of having point, poly, vol selections modes you would have point, edge, poly, volume. If edges were incorportated it would mean we would need proper edge weighting as well. For all kinds of info on this check out the Newtek forum Jin has discussed this at length. This is again another feature that is incorporated into most other 3d modelers currently. The other main issue i think that people woudl like to see now is better UV tools. Ones that would not require some much welding and unwelding to deal with seems and such. I am not sure about how easy dealing with UVs in other applications are because i have not had to do it in anything other than Max. However I will say that i find Max's Unwrap UVW is easier to deal with than LW's UVs for me persoanlly.

This is just my personal take on the most requested stuff for modeler. This is not meant to get anyone rilled up. I just wanted to help clarify some of the most requested stuff up for Infinty3d4life.

Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 04:37 PM
Hey thanks for that explanation.. that would be awesome to have included in modeler..

Emmanuel
07-30-2003, 04:51 PM
"I just want to be able to use lightwave and nothing else.. To lazy to learn another app.."

"And i want muscle simulation.. Not cheats but real ILM sh!t.."

Actually You sound like someone who doesn't do anything with LW at all and wants an app that does it all for him at the push of a button.
No app can do it all without workarounds, so better get accustomed to broaden Your toolset or forget it.You think its just "make muscles" and off You go ? Yeah, sure.
What You claim ILM "Shit" is much more than just a few buttons and underlying code.
Its a lot of time, talent and patience and work, endless hours, with frustration and pain.

gruvsyco
07-30-2003, 04:54 PM
Not so sure why n-gons are such a big deal. Most of the modeling refs I see for sub-d's suggest quads get the best geometry. Tris seem to be next and it would seem that one could get virtually any combination the needed by combining quads and tris.

I can just see someone creating a head model with 1 poly. It may be a 2948 point poly but, hey I guess it would qualify as a low poly model.

gruvsyco
07-30-2003, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Robert Zeltsch
... and remember: Until now, we have "only" seen cool things like the new dynamics and IK/FK.

What about the other features mentioned in the press release?

- enhancements in [...] modeling workflow
- Animatable UV Coordinates
- Texturing tools
- integration with other popular products

Why should Newtek write wrong things in the press release?
The fact that nobody has seen the other features doesn`t mean that these and other features aren`t existing.


Dude... chill. That was day 1 of Siggraph. I suspect Newtek didn't want to show everything on day 1. Hopefully today will show some more new features.

Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 05:05 PM
I'm referring to muscle simulation like Maya has, and i think even 3d studio max.. Not a 20 year old plugin or workaround that gives half/a$$ results.. I have yet to see a good muscle simulation in lightwave comparable to anything that ILM has done.. Thats not laziness, thats the truth.. I have probably been using lightwave for as long as you have so don't flame me with speculations such as i want a one button push solution.:shame: What i won't do is say that i'm willing to sit down and work for days just to get a generic result for something... IF you or anyone could make a muscle simulation that is convincing, not a cheap workaround within lightwave then i apologize... Trust me Emmanuel i do work as hard if not harder with Lightwave than anyone on this board, and i know that after years of doing this that THERE IS NO PUSH OF A BUTTON solution for anything..

But i wish there was.. Then we would all be able to make ILM look amateur. :buttrock:

Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 05:07 PM
What part of my post made you think that i didn't do anything with lightwave?? Just curious cause i don't see anything in that post that would make you have such a comment..

Fellas i'm just trying to be reassured that the package that i have grown to love is still going to be a competitor.. I wish i was at Sig so i could see for myself just whats coming next.. Just a little worried..

Emmanuel sorry if i sounded wrong to you i think you just misunderstood what i was saying...:beer:

discode
07-30-2003, 05:23 PM
Hello gruvsyco:



Not so sure why n-gons are such a big deal. Most of the modeling refs I see for sub-d's suggest quads get the best geometry. Tris seem to be next and it would seem that one could get virtually any combination the needed by combining quads and tris.


I completely agree with you. For a clean mesh you should always try and maintine quads. However imagine this. You are building a head and you end up with a 5 point poly. You would still be able to hit tab and have it smooth out. This is not to say that you would want to leave it that way but instead as you are working prior to cleaning it up you could see all of your model smothed, its really just a workflow thing. I would agree with you though any experienced modeler knows that you are ultimately going for all quad or as close as you can get to it.

Castius
07-30-2003, 05:46 PM
http://www.steelronin.com/profiles/mov/mtest.mpg

Just focus and work with the tools you have. There is more possible than you can imagine. This was done in 7.5 with free plugins and works in real-time.

As far as i can see LW 8 PREVIEW looks like a solid list of some of the major things MOST users complained about. if you can't see that then you need to look harder. If it's not what you need and you need it now do what you have to do to get the job done. If you don't have faith and are sad about the money you paid to Newtek e-mail them about it. Or go get a job at ILM and let them code you your own modo.

Personally Modo looks like years of a waist in recreating what was already done. ngons and edges looks nice but I certainly don't care about an interface that can look like max. there is allot more I can rant about it but Iíll stop there cause that all it deserves

Scott Lange

Chewey
07-30-2003, 06:14 PM
I agree somewhat. I've been able to model what I need to with the current set of tools and see a lot of this clamoring for new and additional tools and gui's a bit just a whole lot of "feature fanboy" blathering to a large extent. Sure I'd like a few new modeling features if they are significant but I get the impression that what we have out there are quite a few folks that don't have decent modeling chops.

Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 06:18 PM
No i don't want to work at ILM and I'm not worried about the money.. Please understand what i am trying to say.. I DON"T WANT TO USE ANOTHER APPLICATION.. That said i don't want Lightwave to fall by the wayside when it comes to improvement either.. Alot of people on this board have said that it seems like lightwave is playing catch-up to other 3d applications.. I just want to make sure that we get these improvements that should have been there in the first place.. As far as muscle simulation i just was using that as an example.. I want Lightwave to also be able to do the X-men Fluid effect of Nightcrawler, the mass crowds that Massive does.. I don't want to jump into another application to get what i want.. I want to be able to stay right here with lightwave.. Just wanted to make sure that i can get what i want here..

If you don't have faith and are sad about the money you paid to Newtek e-mail them about it. Or go get a job at ILM and let them code you your own modo.

No need for this type of reply.. If you read my post you will see what i'm trying to get across..

Chewey i agree with you.. I was kinda worried when i seen all this MODO stuff.. I was thinking that luxology was working with lightwave and that Modo was going to be a IMPROVEMENT to lightwave.. I personally don't have any beef with the interface..
i just want a great package and i don't think its wrong to worry about whether or not its coming..

discode
07-30-2003, 06:31 PM
Hello Infinity:


As for the nightcrawler effect do a search on this for Bamph effect. It has been cover with examples that are really pretty close.


Chewy:

I would have to say that wanting new features in software is the natural evolution of software. Damn does that make sense? Anyway I feel that edges and better UV tools are definatley significant features regardless of your modeleing chops. I could live without n-gon subds but as i previously mentioned i simply see it as a workflow issue more than anything else. If you see these things as feature fanboy blathering you are cetainly entitled to your opinion. :) I know that they would make my life a little easier.

Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 06:47 PM
Thanks Discode,

I think i actually started one of those topics:p

Castius
07-30-2003, 07:05 PM
"Just wanted to make sure that i can get what i want here"

I just want to make a point that negative posts are way to common. It's like writing a letter to Santa Clause and yelling at him your nabor got a faster tricycle. I see to much hard work on Newteks part to see so many post like that. They have stated they are playing catch up form there issues with Lux. Ask for your request and wait and see LW 8 has shown they are lisening and doing what they can. Your post wasnít that bad Infinity3d4life but with so many other post about modo and not LW 8 itís kinda sucks. 8)

Scott

Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 07:14 PM
:beer:



Your post wasnít that bad Infinity3d4life but with so many other post about modo and not LW 8 itís kinda sucks.

I agree with you Castius,

That was exactly what i posted at the beginning of this topic..
I'm not trying to be negative, but more concerned.. Sorry for the misunderstanding..

Robert Zeltsch
07-30-2003, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by gruvsyco
Dude... chill. That was day 1 of Siggraph. I suspect Newtek didn't want to show everything on day 1. Hopefully today will show some more new features.

Hey gruvsyco, my post was not a sign of impatience. It was a question to all, who think dynamics are the only new feature in LW8. :rolleyes:

Be sure, I`m chilling all the day... :thumbsup:

Zithen
07-30-2003, 08:43 PM
LW 8 has some great features in it. No question. But it's not about the features at this point. It's about the long-term future. LW's architecture is antiquated and totally outdated compared to the competition. There are other programs have developed a better-integrated system and API that allows it to be more extensible.

I'm really not interested in waiting another 2 years for the more modern LW architecture that everyone else has had the good sense to implement.

And when Lux releases their full animation/render/model suite in about 6 months and if it's at a reasonable price point, then I will not be using LW. Period. The original visionaries have left Newtek. I'm not saying that Newtek can't come up with a spectacular LW9. But that's 2 years away. Newtek hasn't even started development on the new architecture. And honestly, I really don't think they'll come up with an architecture that's as innovative and extensible as Luxology's technology. Modo's UI lets the user create his/her own interface for goodness sake. Let's you even replace the subdivision algorithm. It really doesn't get more flexible and extensible than that.

Joviex
07-30-2003, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Zithen

I'm really not interested in waiting another 2 years for the more modern LW architecture that everyone else has had the good sense to implement.


Which has been my beef the entire time. And seeing as how the guys who invented LW are now someplace else, with something new and shiny, I would imagine all those that really love the core of what LW was/is will switch soon enough if the feature set is as rich as is claimed by those viewing the demos.

Zithen
07-30-2003, 08:59 PM
It's awesome. I think it will change the way applications are made, quite frankly.

Again, it's not Luxology's features that are so remarkable. It's the architecture, the philosophy behind the technology and how everything is implemented. Their philosophy is that the application is completely and totally open that should "play well" with all other tools and applications. It's also totally extensible in a remarkable way. Really, they basically made a 3d OS for their application. The code is 100% platform independent. Modo is simply the beginning. Brad even showed how he used soft body dynamics to flatten the mesh for UV fitting. So when the whole suite comes out, ALL the tools and UI (such as animation and rendering) will work with everything seamlessly. When you buy Modo, you're really buying the underlying 3d OS and system they've developed.

I think Luxology is being quite reserved about what they ultimately plan to do. I can't wait to use it. I can't express enough how blown away I was by Brad's presentation. It appears it's everything I've ever wanted and then some in a 3d architecture. And to think that this could have been Lightwave? What a shame.

Castius
07-30-2003, 09:28 PM
What makes you think the guys that created Lightwave where not the ones holding it back. LW 8 already has a new IK/FK system and multi undos. Don't you think it's funny that after so many years of asking we get them after they leave. We will never know till things are actually in our hands.

On a side note I seem to remember Brad demoing some animation that took a g5 64 bit machine to play back two box characters with motion capture data. Doesn't anyone else thinks this sounds a little silly.

So we will all just have to wait because no one really knows.

Zithen
07-30-2003, 09:48 PM
Well, what did you expect LW8 to have? Is it a suprise that they have multiple undos now? Is it a surprise they have better IK/FK and dynamics? They had to have something for LW8.

Bottom line is all these are features. Features are good. I like adding a new stereo, tires, digital radio and tinted glass to my car.
A new and better architecture is a whole other level. It's getting a new and better engine. A new and better design for the car itself.

Which one would you prefer to get?

Allen and Stuart aren't just giving people mutliple undos. They left Newtek, worked for a time and are going to offer a brand new design of car. A fuel cell car that can transform into a robot. Now is that better than getting cool new features added to you existing car? I think so, indeed.

lwbob
07-30-2003, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Castius
On a side note I seem to remember Brad demoing some animation that took a g5 64 bit machine to play back two box characters with motion capture data. Doesn't anyone else thinks this sounds a little silly.

That you think you need a "g5 64 bit machine" to use it, yes that IS silly.

Newtek is presenting on 64 bit BOXX machines at the show. Is that silly? Does that mean you need the opterons for LW8?

jrsunshine
07-30-2003, 10:28 PM
A fuel cell car that can transform into a robot. Now is that better than getting cool new features added to you existing car? I think so, indeed.

What a ridiculous analogy.

What's up with these people wanting to pounce on NewTek. This is the company that has served this community well for so many years. There is no question that LW is by far the best value out there for 3D and it's getting even better.

It is indeed..... a good point that once the actual original LW developers leave NewTek for Lux that all these cool new features start to show up. Where there is smoke......

I also find it funny that Luxology has never released a product and people are proclaiming them saviours. Funny indeed.

fastandfurious
07-30-2003, 10:48 PM
JR sunshine

maybe the car analogy is ridiculous but what you are sayin is totally based in your "impressions" not facts...so its even more ridiculous

the idea that the people that left Newtek to make Lux were doing everything to stop LW developpement is maybe true, maybe false you have no proof for this...so its speculation...in the other side what was also a speculation (the Luxology future) is today a reality...and the fact is that you dont have ANY good argument for that...

facts my friend facts...the first one is that the launch of Modo is a success no matter how hard you try to say the opposite ;)
and when you say that Modo isnt out your are perfectly right...but LW8 isnt out either...so....

anyways i wish to see "one day" some LW improvements...as soon as possible will be the best for evryone NT included

Zithen
07-30-2003, 11:05 PM
jrsunshine,

Hm, ridiculous analogy?

Why?

I thought it was a pretty good one, if I do say so myself. Design versus features. A fuel cell design is a completely different and new design versus the combustion engine. Pretty simple to understand and the analogy is correct in the case of Modo versus LW. Seems like some people are concerned about features, others about design and implementation. Please, if you're going to say something's ridiculous, at least show the intelligence to say why it is so.

For example...with all do respect, everything you said makes no logical sense to me.

Couple of points. Most of these new features in LW8 already existed as plug-ins designed by people outside Newtek. So it's no magic that when Allen and Stuart left, cool features just appeared. And besides, Allen and Stuart DID do some work on LW8. Also, just because a company served me for years doesn't make it a sin to consider another option, especially if it's a viable one. That would only be reasonable and intelligent. Also, Luxology is a start up company so of course they haven't released a product. They just announced their first one a few days ago. And your point is...? You'll only consider buying a product from a company that's released something before? Did you buy Newtek's DigiView when it was on the Amiga...Newtek's first product?

minus
07-30-2003, 11:15 PM
Over excited posting deleted by author... Waiting for both LW8 and Modo before further speculation. ;)

Zithen
07-30-2003, 11:21 PM
Newtek has said that all the new dynamics stuff and IK/FK was done by Motion Designer creator Ino. The bone setup was done by "Irrational Number."

minus
07-30-2003, 11:32 PM
Yea yea... I'm not normally one to troll... and I definatly try not to use charged words to incite emotion in people. Unfortunatly there isn't a Modo forum.... (I mean it's not even released yet).. and since it (modo) was made by the original Lightwave team... and since it seems to follow Lightwave most in it's modeling abilities... (if even only because it's just a modeling app... much like Lightwaves stand-alone modeler) I post my excitement here. I still think Lightwave 8 looks kick ass... the dynamics are great looking and so are the new character tools. -- I'm excited about Modo but i'm also concerned how it will fit with what I still use Lightwave for... (Cause I love LW)

**This Post replying to a retracted comment by Remi.

Shade01
07-30-2003, 11:51 PM
There seems to be a serious grass is greener on the otherside condition in here. All I know is right now, I can fire up modeler and make something in half the time it would take in Max or Maya because the workflow is much faster. Right now- with the program I have, not something that isn't out yet.

Emmanuel
07-31-2003, 09:12 AM
Also, people should consider the fact how even simple additions can have dramatic consequences to usability.
Okay, for me, undo in surface editor would be much more important than when manipulating items.
But the dynamics that work on bones (I just started getting into character animation this year) can be tremendous when having chars interact with items.Just imagine the trouble You have having a chars hand cling to something without having intersections in the geometry.
I guess in 8 You don't have to worry anymore.Make the object he clings to a collision object and the hand will not intersect with the object anymore !
No think of all the other possibilities...ships on the ocean...car wreckages...HULK like interactions with the environment...a comic character running against a closed door...and that is just the beginning.
The new stuff is incredible, alas, what we would need is some kind of WarCraft 3 like trailer that shows outstanding animation stuff in outstanding cinematic quality, I guess that would impress people more than a pink octopus :)))
But I exspect You folks to have the vision beyond just simple feature explanations...thats our job after all !

Infinity3d4life
07-31-2003, 01:24 PM
I missed a whole lot of the show yesterday.. I did however get to see CelShader explain some of her techniques and that was worth it...

Infinity3d4life
07-31-2003, 01:51 PM
I want to make it clear also that i'm not bashing Newtek..

And i have a question also..
How come only the lightwave community is buzzing with the "MODO" fever?? I don't see anyone from the Maya, Softimage, and 3d studio community foaming at the mouth for "MODO"...

carnera
07-31-2003, 02:45 PM
i am really excited to see all the nice features that 8 will have.
the new ik/fk....the new softbody simulation....how softbody can effect the bones...etc etc....
i am also not "disappointed" that newtek didnt (or maybe they have spend a little...we will see) spend time on modeler. sure there are a few thing that would be nice to have......time will tell.

but i am bit concerned that so far i didnt see a "setup-mode" or "figure-mode" in 8. thats essential....maybe even more essential than having "soft-ik". further i would like to see some improvements on motion-mixer, coz a good / handy nla-system plays a major part in character-animation.

but as said ...we will see...

but lw8 rocks...

fastandfurious
07-31-2003, 05:39 PM
to infinity3d4life,

"How come only the lightwave community is buzzing with the "MODO" fever?? I don't see anyone from the Maya, Softimage, and 3d studio community foaming at the mouth for "MODO"...
"

well the answer is simple...the lw users have been for a longtime living the dream that Modeler was the most complete thing out there...a part a couple of nice workflow ideas i've never seen a Maya or XSI user really "blown away" by any tool in LW because they are really used to all this thing...the same goes for MOdo...as i already say Modo goes in the right dircetion but it still is catching up...it is so sad to see people exited at some stuff that Maya or XSI has been using for YEARS...like history or edges stuff like that...is like if you were expecting them to be really surprised by the fact Modo has edges...this is a satndard you know?

so as a conclusion LW modeler in certain aspects is archaic (efficient but really of an antique architecture i mean) so don't expect the competition to be really amazed...is like if you wre expecting them to be excited at the idea we have undos in Layout...this is not great this is just normal stuff man...

hope you see my point

Infinity3d4life
07-31-2003, 05:45 PM
Thanks fastandfurious for that explanation.. I had no idea about other modeling packages, and what they contained...

Rabid pitbull
07-31-2003, 06:12 PM
ok I believe the reason tha LW users are so concerned with modo is simple. This should be the new modeler in LW. For whatever reason NT has a history of pushing away its developers to form companies on there own.

Says alot about the company, basically to me it says that they are not allowing the programmers any room for creative developement. Of course this is just my guess, for whatever reason they cannot keep there talented programmers happy.:thumbsdow

fastandfurious
07-31-2003, 06:49 PM
yea...

another example of the weird "behavior" of the LW community is the fact that some stuff (nice btw) like "patch it" is stuff i do in Maya (i'm both Maya and Lw modeler) every day for a long time now...i agree that it is cool to have those tools but if people were a little bit less "fanatic" and more openminded they will see good ideas everywhere instead of waiting NT to bring them and then suddenly find them "kick ass"...this is very childish and doesnt put enough preassure on NT for a good developpement IMHO...even more when you consider that this tools are mostly bring by 3d party developpers...

as a conclusion undos in Layout are not that important for some hardcore LW users until its is announced...that day it is suddenly a major hit...the same goes for any improvement...try asking for any improvement in the feature request threads and you will have some trolls in there "what for?" or "move on" until the NT gurus suddenly comes with that tool and the same trolls start to get excited about it :)

DaveW
07-31-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by carnera


but i am bit concerned that so far i didnt see a "setup-mode" or "figure-mode" in 8. thats essential


NewTek might add a setup mode like Messiah, but even if they don't, you don't really need it. What you do instead is create a setup frame. It works just like a setup mode, the only downside to it being that it's possible to accidentally ruin your setup frame, so keep a couple backup frames just in case.

carnera
07-31-2003, 07:51 PM
DaveW:

no no !! you cant compare a "setup-mode" (messiah) or "figure-mode" (CharacterStudio) to a "keyframe 0" setup.
.... lets say you have already rigged and animated a character. everything is fine and like "expected" the lead-artist or client wants some modifications e.g. shorter arms. so all you need to do is to go to modeler change the proportions of your object - go back in the animation tool (like messiah) change to "setup-mode" do your modifications (shorten the bones for the arms) and switch back to the "animation-mode"....voila....short arms...and your previously created animation is still intact......

DaveW
07-31-2003, 08:15 PM
yes yes, you can! With Orthopack, which is integrated into LW8.

Mike RB
07-31-2003, 09:47 PM
Ortho dosent offset the keyframes to the new location, only Keytrak does that for LW

carnera
07-31-2003, 09:59 PM
mhhh.yes..your right. i have heard that ortho will do that ...somehow....but i am not sure if orthos setup keyframe 0 is like messiahs setup-mode

but for instance......lets say i have motion capture data. lets say its bvh. so when i import that data into messiah it can happen that in setup-mode my character (unfortunately) is not standing in a relaxed "t-pose". so what i can do is, i can rotate the bones(e.g. for the arms) in setup-mode and further i can "decide" if i want to add that rotated value as a offset to my animation or NOT....thats a great feature...

DaveW
08-01-2003, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by Mike RB
Ortho dosent offset the keyframes to the new location, only Keytrak does that for LW

I'm not exactly sure what you're referring to here. We were comparing ortho's setup frame to messiah's setup mode. Neither of those offset any keyframes.

Originally posted by carnera
mhhh.yes..your right. i have heard that ortho will do that ...somehow....but i am not sure if orthos setup keyframe 0 is like messiahs setup-mode

but for instance......lets say i have motion capture data. lets say its bvh. so when i import that data into messiah it can happen that in setup-mode my character (unfortunately) is not standing in a relaxed "t-pose". so what i can do is, i can rotate the bones(e.g. for the arms) in setup-mode and further i can "decide" if i want to add that rotated value as a offset to my animation or NOT....thats a great feature... [/B]

Setup frames in Ortho work very much like setup mode in Messiah. I've never worked with mocap, but what you describe should be possible in LW.

MorBioS
08-01-2003, 05:20 AM
Originally posted by fastandfurious
yea...

another example of the weird "behavior" of the LW community is the fact that some stuff (nice btw) like "patch it" is stuff i do in Maya (i'm both Maya and Lw modeler) every day for a long time now...i agree that it is cool to have those tools but if people were a little bit less "fanatic" and more openminded they will see good ideas everywhere instead of waiting NT to bring them and then suddenly find them "kick ass"...this is very childish and doesnt put enough preassure on NT for a good developpement IMHO...even more when you consider that this tools are mostly bring by 3d party developpers...

as a conclusion undos in Layout are not that important for some hardcore LW users until its is announced...that day it is suddenly a major hit...the same goes for any improvement...try asking for any improvement in the feature request threads and you will have some trolls in there "what for?" or "move on" until the NT gurus suddenly comes with that tool and the same trolls start to get excited about it :)

hahaha I agree with you.

LW community is very strange.
I did heard many people said that LW don't need UNDO, that LW don't need edge support, that lw don't need n-gons sub-d etc etc but when NEWTEK make some improvements like it, this guys love it.
perhaps will happen with modeler and layout union. hehehe hilarious:applause:

I think that lw maniac need open your mind as soon as possible, because it just disturb lw progress. Look at other 3d packages there is very cool features as well.

cheers

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