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Ibanezhead
07-30-2003, 01:15 AM
All I can say is that I'm really glad I didn't wait for LW8, instead of buying Maya last year...

Shade01
07-30-2003, 01:23 AM
that 'didn't' supposed to be 'did'?

Ibanezhead
07-30-2003, 01:28 AM
let me re-phrase. I'm glad I bought Maya instead of waiting for LW8...

Shade01
07-30-2003, 01:30 AM
Oh ok, thanks for sharing. I can rest easy now :rolleyes:

Mattoo
07-30-2003, 01:33 AM
Personally I would have gone for 3DSMax, that would have really raised the heckles :p

Ibanezhead
07-30-2003, 01:40 AM
The point of the thread is for everyone to share. If you like what you see, then share it... This is my opinion. What is yours? :)

robinson
07-30-2003, 01:42 AM
No, maya is great you get a new update every six month, these updates are really cheap and they really worth the money.:scream: :rolleyes:

So have fun with maya and don't star that kind of discussions.:curious:

Ibanezhead
07-30-2003, 01:46 AM
Start what Kind of discussion? You misunderstand this discussion obviously. This isn't a Maya vs LW discussion... What are your first impressions of LW8? I gave mine, what are yours?

You guys are way to sensitive...

Dis
07-30-2003, 01:46 AM
what leads you to this conclusion Ibanezhead ?

Bytehawk
07-30-2003, 01:48 AM
it's like tasting a teaspoon of spaghetti and saying you're glad you took the pizza

Shade01
07-30-2003, 01:51 AM
What are your first impressions of LW8? I gave mine, what are yours?

How could you say you gave a first impression of LW8? All you said was you didn't want it. There was nothing intelligent or thought out about what you said.

All I can say is that I'm really glad I didn't wait for LW8, instead of buying Maya last year...

How is that an impression?

robinson
07-30-2003, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Ibanezhead
What are your first impressions of LW8? I gave mine, what are yours?

You gave some kind of impression, where ?

Ok back to the topic.

So far the new features look great, sure there needs to be a lot more done for the final Lightwave 8 version, but the new dynamics and character features look pretty good so far.
I really hope they are fast like in project messiah or motion builder !

I’m not sure about the rest, they never mentioned modeller and they said there are no improvements showed on Siggraph.

BTW I started a thread about that topic a while ago, maybe join us there ?

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78645

Ibanezhead
07-30-2003, 01:57 AM
I think the New character tools look pretty good, but they arn't the only changes that were needed. I was hoping LW would have integrated by now. Plus the undos in Layout are limited to 40 and to transformations?

They seemed to be caught off guard when asked to show modeling upgrades, and said, "this isn't feature complete". So they don't have anything to show for Modeler at Siggraph? They should be more prepared than that.

I'm just done with LW's workflow, etc, and have been for a few years. But I still had a ray of hope for LW8. It sounds like a cool upgrade for those that already like LW, but for me, hoping for integration and a change in workflow overall, not just in character tools, I'm a little disappointed...

DaveW
07-30-2003, 01:59 AM
Personally, I'm pretty glad I waited, I was close to dumping LW for Maya. The new character animation features and the dynamics are looking really good. Everything looks like it calculates a lot faster and the new IK engine looks like it's easier to setup and more powerful. And since I already have the Orthopack for rigging I know that it rocks :) I'm hoping to see some more dramatic Modeler and render improvements in the 8.x releases.

Ibanezhead
07-30-2003, 02:01 AM
How could you say you gave a first impression of LW8? All you said was you didn't want it. There was nothing intelligent or thought out about what you said.

Sorry, I thought you could tell by my initial statement that my impressions at first weren't good... I was more interested in starting a thread to see your impressions... I didn't mean to offend anyone.

Mattoo
07-30-2003, 02:09 AM
If you'd qualified your initial statement with some specific reasons it wouldn't come across as soooo...... harsh.

I'm not overly impressed with what I'm hearing LW8 has (mostly because I'm not an animator).
But atleast it's more than Discreet are adding to version 6 of Max and what Alias added to Maya the last time around. There's nothing in Maya 5 that I wasn't already using in Maya 4....

Ibanezhead
07-30-2003, 02:12 AM
I'm not overly impressed with what I'm hearing LW8 has (mostly because I'm not an animator).
But atleast it's more than Discreet are adding to version 6 of Max and what Alias added to Maya the last time around. There's nothing in Maya 5 that I wasn't already using in Maya 4....

We didn't upgrade to Max5 when it came out, so going from 4 to 6 will be nice. As far as Maya, I agree. I'm still at 4.5.

I really would like to see the upgrades to Modeler as well, especially since Modo has been revealed. Without integration though, all other changes seem pointless...

DaveW
07-30-2003, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by Ibanezhead

I really would like to see the upgrades to Modeler as well, especially since Modo has been revealed. Without integration though, all other changes seem pointless...

It's already been posted at NewTek's forums that the modeler and renderer won't see significant upgrades for the 8.0 release, but they're working on improvements that should be coming out in 8.x releases. I don't really agree about integration either; I do want the two to be integrated but the biggest problems with the seperate modeler/layout for me were setting up bones and making corrective morphs, both of which have been addressed in LW8.

Your earlier comment about the undos has merit, but some people don't like the history undos in other apps. I've never had a problem with them though. But it would be nice if the undos were global instead of just for motion. I'm curious if the ls commander has improved, it's been very useful in the past for multiple undos, even if it is a bit of a clunky way to do it.

Mattoo
07-30-2003, 02:30 AM
Originally posted by Ibanezhead
We didn't upgrade to Max5 when it came out, so going from 4 to 6 will be nice. As far as Maya, I agree. I'm still at 4.5.

I really would like to see the upgrades to Modeler as well, especially since Modo has been revealed. Without integration though, all other changes seem pointless...

Agreed. I was hoping for a bit more of an overhaul but I didn't get my hopes up when I read a while back that most improvements would be to Layout. But I guess that's where it needed it the most.

Shade01
07-30-2003, 02:36 AM
I'm an animator, which can be more difficult than it should be at times in LW, so I'm thrilled at the improvements. Even though modeler has not recieved significant upgrades, there's plenty of plugins out there that help do the things I need it to do, but not so many for Layout. I'll be getting this upgrade for sure. Obviously, if your not an animator this upgrade doesn't mean much and I can totally understand that. I'd want render and speed improvements in layout (realtime) before modeler improvements though.

Gollum
07-30-2003, 02:40 AM
No offence taken. I'm curious - and I'm not trying to be bitchy here or anything, you have every right to express your opinion - but if integration between modeler/layout is so critical to you, then maybe LW just isn't the right program for you?

Most LW users I've talked to don't really have a problem with the seperation, in fact I've heard numerous people state that they actually appreciate it as it helps them focus on the task at hand (modeling/animating).

I do share your dissapointment about the lack of news for Modeler though. While LW Modeler currently is good as it is, it sure could do with some enhancements and fresh ideas. It's a bit dissapointing they're not ready to show anything and it could very well mean that there isn't going to be much to show at all even if it were "feature complete". :(

As for my opinion on what is being shown, I posted that in another thread already...

Random thought: it's the year 2003 and they're giving away hats at the booth? Is that really the best NT could come up with? ;)

Ibanezhead
07-30-2003, 02:41 AM
I can see why your excited shade. I animate too, but the lack of integration in LW, and the workflow route they have chosen to impliment(SP?) to get around it isn't very intuitive, but seems clunky...

Ibanezhead
07-30-2003, 02:45 AM
but if integration between modeler/layout is so critical to you, then maybe LW just isn't the right program for you?

That's why I gave it up a year ago... :) It does seem many people like it seperated. I don't understand why, but not every program nor user has to be the same...

Mike RB
07-30-2003, 02:47 AM
LW8 is still a long way off. Seeing as they will be shipping probably in December they have lots of time. I bet they are going to redouble thier efforts on the Modeling side of things, especially now. :)

Competition is good.

Mike

mr_nebel
07-30-2003, 02:54 AM
I'm only on 56k so it was rather choppy but i'm sure I heard someone say they might show some of the modeller stuff in the next two days.

gruvsyco
07-30-2003, 03:11 AM
Originally posted by Mike RB
LW8 is still a long way off. Seeing as they will be shipping probably in December they have lots of time. I bet they are going to redouble thier efforts on the Modeling side of things, especially now. :)

Competition is good.

Mike

Yeah.

I was quite impressed with the footage today. The Lux app looks intriguing too but, I currently have my $$$ invested in LW so, it's good to see them making some much needed changes.

geoff3dnz
07-30-2003, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by Gollum
Most LW users I've talked to don't really have a problem with the seperation, in fact I've heard numerous people state that they actually appreciate it as it helps them focus on the task at hand (modeling/animating).
I see integration as simply two main tabs at the top of the interface - 'modeler' and 'layout'. You'd still only focus on one task at a time, but it means things like generating OpenGL texture previews only have to be done once, and you'd have a 'camera' (along with perspective, front etc) option in the modeler window view. :)

AndréNozawa
07-30-2003, 08:45 AM
I don`t like Newtek`s policy.They are showing something that is not completed yet.It makes me think they had the obligation of showing something on Siggraph 2003...Maybe because of the pressure...:shrug:

Shade01
07-30-2003, 08:53 AM
I don`t like Newtek`s policy.They are showing something that is not completed yet.It makes me think they had the obligation of showing something on Siggraph 2003...Maybe because of the pressure...

That's actually very common to the point of being expected at these types of trade shows. And yes, there was pressure. After two years of Lightwave 7.x they needed to show this. To not show something in the face of increasingly stiff competition would have been a huge mistake.

DaveW
07-30-2003, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by AndréNozawa
I don`t like Newtek`s policy.They are showing something that is not completed yet.It makes me think they had the obligation of showing something on Siggraph 2003...Maybe because of the pressure...:shrug:

Oh please :rolleyes:

*Everybody* shows new stuff at Siggraph wether it's ready to ship or not. That's what the whole show is about. Do you complain that at e3, none of the games are ready to ship? And yeah, there was pressure from users to see what is in store for them. Users generally don't like to be kept in the dark about software they have invested thousands of dollars and countless hours into.

swampthing
07-30-2003, 02:59 PM
i'm not an animator so absolutely nothing in lw8 interests me. The little animating i do i've found lightwave to be completely inadequate for so i've got motionbuilder for that. I think that lightwave is now far enough behind other packages featurewise that it might be time to start looking at something else.

js33
07-30-2003, 03:15 PM
OK don't let the doorknob hit you in the a$$ on the way out.:wavey:

Also how can people that only model even claim to really be a 3D artist. You're more like less than half an artist if you never bring a model to life or create an environment for it. Also I'm betting now that modelers are a dime a dozen compared to full fledged 3d artists. Plus you can damn near buy just about any 3D model you could want now except for maybe custom characters. LW is going in the right direction. It was the animation part that needed the most work and that's what they focused on. I would have been pissed if they added n-gon subs and edges to modeler at the expense of the dynamics and character tool improvements.:thumbsup:

Cheers,
JS

Infinity3d4life
07-30-2003, 03:31 PM
Jesus,

What is it that is so bad about lightwaves modeler?? I've had no problems getting what i want to out of it.. I think the only thing that is missing for is the ability to telepathically model what i want.. There are plenty of FREE plugins that improve the workflow of modeler, but hell even with Knife, smoothshift, and drag i can get what has to be done, done.... As far as the animation capabilities in lightwave i think they good enough by themselves to get the job done, but with a little help from ACS4, TSM, and ortho that makes the process simpler.. The stuff that i seen on the stream had me very excited.. I don't need any improvement in modeler, just the improvements that i have seen so far in layout are enough to sell me..

I really don't know what else people are expecting from lightwave 8.. Maybe they will include a 3D scanner with it or something...

Keep it up Newtek..

JohnD
07-30-2003, 03:45 PM
Definitely agree with Infinity. As far as character animation in Layout, I've had no problems with rigging or animating. I'm 4 minutes into my "heavy character animated" short film and have used nothing but Lightwave. The new IK/FK system looks great, but what I was really hoping for was Hard Body Dynamics, which I saw them demo yesterday on that robot dog, so I'm really excited. As far as Modeler, I've always thought it was next to godliness. Never been anything I couldn't make in it, and quicky too. I'm not saying that Lightwave shouldn't keep pushing forward, but so far, I've had really no complaints.

EsHrA
07-30-2003, 03:59 PM
When Deuce mentioned at the beginning of the streams' We have tons of new stuff to show you' i was rather dissapointed to see all out through the day that they showed like 4 or 5 times the same exact stuff....

There was also kinda a nervous break down in the audience when Duece and Proton asked them what to show the audience...
and ofcoz the audience wanted to see the new modeling tools they were expecting (hey...its lw8 right)...which arent there :( at that point they kinda lost the audience...almost bitt embarrasing to see..... sorry guys...

Still NT has allot of time to enhance lw and make new tools for modeller not to mention the renderer. so....come on NT, my money is still on you...but competition is stiff to say the least...



Cheers,

-EsH-

Robert Zeltsch
07-30-2003, 03:59 PM
I`m very excited about this new character and dynamics stuff. I`m planning to deal with the matter of character modeling and animation for a while, so these new features are what I wanted.

Sil3
07-30-2003, 04:58 PM
I must admit that after seeing the streams my faith in LW ressurged, they will have my $500 :buttrock:

Nicodemus
07-30-2003, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by js33
OK don't let the doorknob hit you in the a$$ on the way out.:wavey:

Also how can people that only model even claim to really be a 3D artist. You're more like less than half an artist if you never bring a model to life or create an environment for it. Also I'm betting now that modelers are a dime a dozen compared to full fledged 3d artists. Plus you can damn near buy just about any 3D model you could want now except for maybe custom characters. LW is going in the right direction. It was the animation part that needed the most work and that's what they focused on. I would have been pissed if they added n-gon subs and edges to modeler at the expense of the dynamics and character tool improvements.:thumbsup:

Cheers,
JS

Just a bit harsh there don't you think. To claim that someone who only models is not an artist is very short sighted. You might as well say someone that paints but does not sculpt is not a artist. There are alot of really great artists that specialize in modeling and to dismiss the ability needed to build a good model is not smart.

~L~

Nicodemus
07-30-2003, 05:30 PM
Also....the stream looks really good. I am learing more about character animation so I have to say I am really excited about the things they have shown.

~L~

swampthing
07-30-2003, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by js33

Also how can people that only model even claim to really be a 3D artist. You're more like less than half an artist if you never bring a model to life or create an environment for it. Also I'm betting now that modelers are a dime a dozen compared to full fledged 3d artists. Plus you can damn near buy just about any 3D model you could want now except for maybe custom characters.

Cheers,
JS




Congratulations, you just insulted probably half of the entire 3d community with your close minded views which are seemingly based on nothing more than a stupid premise of software loyalty.

As someone that enjoys modelling, the continued abscense of true edges and ngons has become limiting. Sure you can do it, but it's easier when it's built into the software rather than using some 3rd party plugin. As much as i like lightwave i'm honestly finding myself using the XSI demo more and more.

Gollum
07-31-2003, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by geoff3dnz
I see integration as simply two main tabs at the top of the interface - 'modeler' and 'layout'. You'd still only focus on one task at a time, but it means things like generating OpenGL texture previews only have to be done once, and you'd have a 'camera' (along with perspective, front etc) option in the modeler window view. :)
Well, there IS a button called "layout" in the top of modeller and a button called "modeller" in the top of layout... ;)

j/k, I know what you mean and yeah, I would appreciate it too, but if I had to choose between the new dynamics and integration, I'd say screw integration, at least for now, hehe.

I think so far the whole LW8 presentation is kind of a mixed bag, the new animation features seem great and are actually way more than what I expected, they alone sold me on the upgrade. But on the other hand it still looks and feels like LW[6] on steroids (and a new skin). Dunno how much longer NT can keep sticking with this tried but aging architecture, they gotta start from scratch some day...

iratethemad
07-31-2003, 05:33 AM
Ok i dont know what you guys are complaining about well those of you that are complaining but i used LW8 yesterday at the show and i must say i was jaw droping impresed especially at the bone dynamics whitch are effected by wind, gravity, and collision and the ability to cut and sew polys that was sweet.

I think they did a great job with the animation part of lightwave and thats what needed help the most and they built it well.

nostromo_va
07-31-2003, 02:10 PM
I lean towards what Infinity3d4life said.

I can pretty much model just about anything I want with the "out of the box" toolset in LW modeler, or find a few (and mostly free) plugins to enhance the job.
Once I got past the initial learning curve, I have to say I really enjoy working in modeler.

Layout needed a big overhaul. I would like to see more about that, but missed the shows on those. The little tidbits of info I've picked up sound like an improvement. I like that bones can be affected by environment and that they have added a ridgid body dynamics system.

I am still in the dark about the rumor I heard that a character rigging package would be included: Is it the Setup Machine or ACS4 or neither?

Thanks.

Infinity3d4life
07-31-2003, 02:20 PM
Ok i dont know what you guys are complaining about well those of you that are complaining but i used LW8 yesterday at the show

LUCKY DAWG:buttrock:

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