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markdc
07-28-2003, 05:15 PM
http://www.3dtotal.com/press_releases/discreet02/02.asp

plastic
07-28-2003, 05:49 PM
looks pathetic :thumbsdow

Ajaciedwt
07-28-2003, 05:52 PM
jep heard the news yet, I´m already excited :D

Cyberdigitus
07-28-2003, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by plastic
looks pathetic :thumbsdow

why you think so ? It's just a press release, wait until more info is released before making such dumb statement.

roald
07-28-2003, 06:23 PM
hmmm... it doesn`t look very promising :( I have heard rumors that said discreet was completely rewriting the code. Well... its only a press release.. I hope it will be more stable than its predecessors though...


roald:shrug:

mo_pic
07-28-2003, 06:51 PM
Funny. There’s nothing about the new release on discreet's website.

trex4d
07-28-2003, 07:02 PM
Is it a "new release"??:)
I see just some plugins...
"completely rewriting code"??
Hey!! It is 3dsmax!
:shame:

TheWraith
07-28-2003, 07:21 PM
http://www.3d-palace.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=630

has a couple screen grabs and some other stuff

Noxerus
07-28-2003, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by roald
I have heard rumors that said discreet was completely rewriting the code.

Actually, the rumors go that the rewritten code is not for the next revision of max, but for the next revision of 3d studio.
At first, there was 3d studio for DOS.
Then, there was 3d studio MAX.
Next year (or whenever), there will be 3d studio [???]...

As for Max 6, indeed doesn't seem too special, but the integrated (and hopefully improved) new particle extension seems nice, as does the integrated MR 3.2 connection.

:)

GRMac13
07-28-2003, 07:29 PM
Personally I find it a bit ridiculous how often software is being updated these days. It feels like max 5 was just released a few months ago, and now here we have max 6 already.

I think the developers should take some more time between major releases and concentrate on improving the existing package more. It seems like they are simply tacking on features that are available as plug-ins without doing much with the actual core of the app. It seems like most of it is driven to much by trying to compete with other vendors than with actually improving the software and catering to the consumers' requests.

I hope this is a major upgrade from the previous version, otherwise it's just a wate of time and money. Discreet really needs to concentrate on making max much more stable. The biggest complaint I hear from people I know who uses max (including myself) is how often it crashes. Hopefully this will be addressed in this new release, otherwise it looks like they just added some bells and whistles.

:shrug:

poe
07-28-2003, 08:02 PM
from what ive heard, 3dsmax is pretty much a programmers nightmare right now, bloated code and a nightmare to debug.

if they are re-writing it, its going to take a *long* time. the question is, is it viable from a business sense, now that the prices of licenses are dropping so low (from good competition).

at least they have a more attractive price-point if mental ray is included in the £2695

Indy3
07-28-2003, 08:09 PM
where is the new logo?

percydaman
07-28-2003, 08:14 PM
ugh...ive been waiting on a complete code rewrite for way too long now...when brazil or vray gets ported to maya...ill be gone and will never look back at max again. Its no wonder 3dsmax is the redheaded stepchild of 3d graphics programs

mattregnier
07-28-2003, 08:15 PM
I wouldn't be surprised if this new version is just a quick fix as well to address the recent problems or incompatibilities between max 5.1 and windows 2000 and earlier...

jtothec
07-28-2003, 08:37 PM
From the Discreet boards:

FEATURES: 3ds max 6
3ds max 6 represents a comprehensive engineering delivery, with brand new features, as well as increased focus on the quality and reliability across all modeling, animation and rendering tools.

What’s New:

Games
3ds max 6 has customer-driven features dedicated specifically for the game developers:

Access to data and batch processing of this data either inside or outside of 3ds max is a consistent theme in many of the features.

Schematic View: Schematic View is a graphical representation of the 3ds max scene graph and depicts relationships between objects, modifiers, controllers and custom attributes. The completely reworked schematic view includes new layout control (load/save layouts per scene/character, et al), a fleshed-out filtering system, and the ability to add/edit/delete most modifiers, controllers, wires, and constraints.

Paint Studio: New integrated 3D painting system for the creation of texture and other maps. Includes support for multiple layers, painting on multiple channels and across multiple objects. Based on Right Hemisphere’s industry-leading paint technology.
Maxscript support on the 3ds max command line, .max file data accessible from outside of 3ds max.

Render to Texture: Radiosity solutions for texture-baking (and any other texture-baking requirements) can now be calculated over your 3ds max render farm.

Vertex Paint: Painting vertex colors in 3ds max 6 received a significant update in workflow and functionality:
o Paint game-specific data into vertex channels, such as how slippery a floor is, or how much damage a lava flow inflicts on the character.
o New brush tools, including pressure-sensitivity, blurring, and the ability to tint existing vertex colors.
o Selections—Use vertex & face selections as a mask for interactively painting on the parts of the object you want—and Soft Selections allow for feathered control
o Each Vertex Paint Modifier gives a single layer of color, with Photoshop-style blending modes and opacity control.

DX9 support will be made available as it has been from 3ds max 5.11 and will also include support for the dynamic generation of UI from Microsoft’s .FX shader parameters.

Spline/Patch Improvements: Time saving enhancements to make the process of modeling with Patches and Spline Cages faster.

UVW Unwrap Enhancements: The industry’s best mapping utility now gives users the ability to “relax” mapping coordinates—making it easier to place your textures onto 3D objects without “Stretching”.

Mirror Skin Weights: Character rigging gets faster with automatic mirroring of skin weighting across an object.
Improved Multi-Material Workflow: Makes the process of managing multiple–textures-per-object easier.

Critical partner relationships with all Middleware vendors, including game engines (Criterion, NDL, Lithtech, et al) and 3rd party add-on technologies (Bionatics, NxN, et al). Current relationship with Criterion to build new tools for mobile game market, PS2, and “next generation” console development. Discreet is also committed to providing industry-leading SDK/API exposure for those houses building their own tools.
Mobile Gaming with a set of exporters, and the first move to Mobile Gaming Middleware players, including Criterion.

Design Visualization
Benefiting from its close relationship with parent company Autodesk, Discreet delivers 3ds max 6 with the ideal workflow for designers and visualization specialists in Industrial Design, Architecture, Building and Manufacturing markets with its unmatched integration with Autodesk’s product line: AutoCAD, Architectural Desktop (ADT) and Inventor.

The latest Autodesk release of Architectural Desktop includes a new VIZ Render rendering solution for photo-realistic results. These VIZ Render capabilities have been embedded in 3ds max 6.

3ds max 6 has customer-driven features dedicated specifically for the design visualization market:

Integration with Autodesk products: transfer data between 3ds max 6 and any application that supports the .dwg format such as ADT and AutoCAD. 3ds max 6 also opens ADT VIZ Render files directly for advanced visualization work.

Architectural Material: The 3ds max renderer and mental ray support new Physical Material properties.

Other VIZ Render Features: The geometry organization and material propagation work done for VIZ Render is now intrinsic to 3ds max 6. Much of the rendering and radiosity performance and quality improvements accomplished in ADT VIZ Render are included in 3ds max 6.

Layer Manager: The Layer Manager now operates as a Modeless dialogue (switch layer states such as Visibility/Selectability/Renderable, etc without having to close the window) – simplifying workflow significantly.

User Interface Improvements: 3ds max 6 will include custom ini with default settings appropriate for each user domain.

Rendering Presets: The ability to save rendering presets (able to be called from the command line) for frequently used settings will streamline rendering tasks. Global Rendering Settings, Raytrace Globals, Advanced Lighting, Environment, and Effects settings will all be preserved.

Tabbed Render Dialogue: All relevant rendering settings, from Environment Effects to Output Options, are now accessible from within a single Rendering component in the 3ds max UI.

Support for mental ray 3.2: This renderer noted for its use in film is also a leading rendering solution in the architectural visualization industry noted for its ability to render physically accurate lighting, reflections and shadows. mental ray is integrated and directly accessible through the 3ds max user interface. This FREE rendering solution is included as part of the shipping version of 3ds max 6, used as one of the preferred technologies for the best in film and television effects, game cinematics, and design visualizations. Not only will 3ds max 6 ship with a single license of Mental Ray 3.2, but the implementation has been updated and now includes shader support within the Materials Editor, and new Mental Ray specific shader types from the LUME TOOLS collection.
Support “renderable” property flag for lights : A preference that gives artists the ability to not render those lights in the scene that are hidden. Perfect for trying multiple lighting setups within the same scene, or for focusing on certain types of lighting within the scene (ie working on the lights that affect the columns only, or those that provide the ambient room lighting, etc)

Command Line Rendering (see below)

Video/Film/Cinematics
3ds max 6 will excite animators creating television and film visual effects or game cinematics:

reactor 2: Integrated directly within 3ds max 6, these new features stunt man / rag doll, vehicle dynamics and a more advanced fracture.

Particle Flow: a Discreet-developed event-driven particle system for creating complex particle systems – already used on effects-intensive feature films such as The Core and XMEN-2, Particle Flow gives artists an intuitive interface for creating realistic fountains, fog, snow, splashes, contrails, explosions, and other environmental effects.

Command Line Rendering: Technical Directors and rendering specialists will be able to perform batch operations – rendering can be started from a command line prompt, and text files are able to drive rendering operations without engaging the 3ds max UI.

Region Net Render: Enables the rendering of single frames to be deployed over the entire render farm by breaking the frame up into “buckets” and deploying them across the network.
3D Paint (see above)
Support for mental ray 3.2 (see above)
Rendering Presets (see above)
Schematic View (see above)
Tabbed Render Dialogue (see above)
Layer Manager (see above)
Mirror Skin Weights (see above)
Patch Improvements (see above)

HDRI Support: Allows for the use of HDRI maps to simulate photorealistic lighting of a 3D scene, based on an image map

Blobmesh Object

Improved Job Archiving controls: Enable job archiving directly from the Job Submissions dialogue.

Government Simulation:
Discreet has partnered with several leading OpenFlight translator companies to deliver without any additional charge the best available OpenFlight translation to the 3ds max 6 artist.
Workflow/General Improvements
Many areas of 3ds max have been greatly enhanced and stabilized, including:

A new layer manager
Speed improvements to the Dope Sheet editor
Nearly 100 severe yet obscure bugs have been fixed during the development of 3ds max 6 instead of during the beta/bug fix period.

What else is new in 3ds max 6?

A new look! Including:
o New packaging
o New icon
o New marketing look-and-feel
o New advertising
o More community outreach
o More online streamed tutorials

MartinGFoster
07-28-2003, 08:41 PM
although, I don't use max anymore, except occasionally dabbling with my neglected copy of max4, I wonder how good the integration of mental ray 3.2 will be as compared to Maya and XSI's?

With a powerful renderer like Mental Ray, the connection is critical since few want to write C++ to access features inaccessible from the the GUI and Mental Ray doesn't really have a user-friendly shader language like RenderMan compatible renderers have.

Martin Foster
Rhythm and Hues

halo
07-28-2003, 09:55 PM
Speaking of mental ray, why is it that only 2 of those screen shots have a Mental Ray menu, why would it be in lower case and i'm wondering why its even got a menu..../me is suspicious

Limbus
07-28-2003, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by jtothec

A new look! Including:
o New packaging
o New icon
o New marketing look-and-feel
o New advertising
o More community outreach
o More online streamed tutorials

I can't wait for the "New marketing look-and-feel". :applause:

halo
07-28-2003, 10:25 PM
more importantly that new packaging and that NEW ICON...oh god i can hardly wait..!

xynaria
07-28-2003, 10:49 PM
Spin Spin Spin.. considering all the preamble heavily indicated the announcement of a new animation tool not the emperors new clothes on an old one what has gone awry???????
How surprising to not see any indication of anything being done or developed to some of the core problems isn't it. :wip:




Rumours that Max 7 is to include native Brazil and that Max 8 is to include native PRman are said to be unfounded.

mattregnier
07-28-2003, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by jtothec

Schematic View

Mental Ray

Paint Studio

UVW Unwrap Enhancements

Mirror Skin Weights

Wow... simply wow, it sounds like this is what Max 5 was supposed to be. If all this is really included in 6, it's gonna be a hell of an upgrade. The schematic view is awesome, I've been hoping max would implement this ever since I used it in Maya. Paint studio sounds sweet, and the UV tools needed a major overhaul. Here's one max user that is excited!

pff
07-28-2003, 11:21 PM
@@How surprising to not see any indication of anything being @@done or developed to some of the core problems isn't it.

that IS the Discreet Surpise :)

seriously it says "fixed 100 bugs" someplace and also mention performance increases but who knows? we won´t know for real until the softw is out being sold.

About the new animation tool... I doubt it´s over yet. I would hold my horses ´til the Evolve Event is done at least....

The Deep Paint/Mental Ray rumours were true...
The actually useable schematic view looks kewl
Particle Flow rocks already knew that thanx Brandon adding some culture into that :)

Suppose the question is how well is all this implemented, especially Mental Ray?
And I wonder how the industry will react to all this?
Will Discreet actually sell new licenses from now on?

Let´s say everything works flawlessly and decently fast too. I still lack some fur/hair, decent volumetrics in the base package. But that´s just me. Whatever the outcome, I think, at least this is an upgrade worth calling upgrade, even if they DID use special Discreet-Jedi-Tricks to add some new stuff to the old beast (talking about the Deep Paint engine as well as MR here).

Hear the Mayians can look forward to some improved speed with Paint FX, and jaw dropping real time fluid simulation stuff in M*** as a comparison.

Hmmmm. I have like no idea.... Will shut up now.

pff

halo
07-28-2003, 11:34 PM
probably a bit of a bitch if you bought reactor and or mental ray for max (wasnt that supposed to be mega expensive?)

still its nice if you didnt...except that i reckon that mental ray wont do much to tempt people away from the 3rd party renderers they've bought...horse gate bolt?

erilaz
07-28-2003, 11:43 PM
If they said they've been working with SEGA, does that mean we're going to see Animanium integrated into the package by next year?:D

Array
07-28-2003, 11:45 PM
Originally posted by halo
probably a bit of a bitch if you bought reactor and or mental ray for max (wasnt that supposed to be mega expensive?)

still its nice if you didnt...except that i reckon that mental ray wont do much to tempt people away from the 3rd party renderers they've bought...horse gate bolt?

the version of mentalray that was previously available for max was version 2.1. this is 3.2, which is the latest version.

halo
07-28-2003, 11:50 PM
yes i've heard its good, but i'm just wondering if its gobsmackingly good to make people drop finalrender which has just gone stage 1 (bet cebas are happy) vray brazil etc...

xynaria
07-29-2003, 12:04 AM
I actually think its a brilliant ploy by Discreet, after all few companies release upgrades that give you more reasons not to upgrade rather than to do so. :D

Linus Ericson
07-29-2003, 12:12 AM
weight mirror, that is good.:thumbsup:
But what is with max4/5 plugins?
Do they work in max6?

Signal2Noise
07-29-2003, 12:19 AM
The most important question is...

"What color is the splash screen going to be?"

:eek:

StefanDidak
07-29-2003, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by MartinGFoster
although, I don't use max anymore, except occasionally dabbling with my neglected copy of max4, I wonder how good the integration of mental ray 3.2 will be as compared to Maya and XSI's?


That depends on the number of interns that were put onto it, of course but my randomly wild guess of the day is that it'll be one of those "looks fine on paper" implementations that falls short in the actual production process or fails to meet the requirements that the others have had a major headstart with for the past years. It'll probably disgruntle a lot of current users if the end result is typical of the Discreet style of "promise nothing and deliver half".

Array
07-29-2003, 12:59 AM
i guess the good thing about this release is that splutterfish is going to have to hurry and port brazil to other platforms (or release the long awaited standalone version with orchid).

polygun
07-29-2003, 02:21 AM
Is there any screenshots of max 6 floating around? Im just curious to see this new 'look'

erilaz
07-29-2003, 02:36 AM
Um... did you read the first page of this thread by any chance? There was a link to a couple of screengrabs.

There wasn't much to see though.:hmm:

leigh
07-29-2003, 03:45 AM
All sounds very exciting :) I'm looking forward to seeing how this is going to be, even though I stopped using Max a few years ago for my own work.

raz-0
07-29-2003, 04:13 AM
Well, for $750 MSRP, you get a single license of MR 3.2, the guts of deep paint, a new particle system, and a new schematic system.

seriously, better particles and a production quality renderer were some of the top requests.

As for MR integration, they have been adding hooks and integrating since version 4. I't not like this is the first revision. There's at least reason to evpect it to be usable.

The original warning was that max 4/5 plugins would not work with 6, but nobody has said anything official yet. The level of improvement, in my eyes would not justify incompatibility. But incompatibility seems to be dictated more by when M$ releases a new version of VC++ and it's libraries.

StefanDidak
07-29-2003, 04:27 AM
Originally posted by raz-0
But incompatibility seems to be dictated more by when M$ releases a new version of VC++ and it's libraries.

As someone who's been intimately familiar with the MAX/SDK source code I can tell you that M$ lib issues are minor compared to altering the v-tables of the MAX SDK libs (which breaks the SDK and causes incompatibilities). Even with the greatest care it's not always easy to make sure additions append to the existing v-tables and offsets and testing for such compatibility is a royal pain in the beeeeehind.

mental
07-29-2003, 04:51 AM
Originally posted by mattregnier
it sounds like this is what Max 5 was supposed to be.funny that the same thing has been said of Maya. By right versions 4.0, 4.5 and 5.0 should have been called 3.5, 4.0 and 4.5 respectively :)

xynaria
07-29-2003, 05:58 AM
LOL...maybe 'the next generation' that *doesn't exist* will be what Max 6 should have been.:p

mattregnier
07-29-2003, 06:20 AM
mental-

haha, very true :D always seems like these guys a day late and a buck short, but i guess better late then never :)

robioto
07-29-2003, 06:36 AM
If they wanted to make their new paint studio bad ass and worth using in a production environment they'd make it able to handle 500k - 2million polys and paint displacement and normal maps.

-r

chudofsinister
07-29-2003, 06:42 AM
"Blobmesh Object "

What do you suppose this is?

And are we to take that they are officially buying out Deep Paint or whatever, said something to that effect in the press release? That could be cool if its totally intergretated and is furthered developed with the offor mentioned normal/displacement mapping features of Z-brush.

xynaria
07-29-2003, 07:04 AM
Originally posted by chudofsinister
"Blobmesh Object "

What do you suppose this is?




Possibly what everyone else call metaballs when they are not busy thinking.. hum.. but where is the actual development of Max iself.. did it run away in a sulk at feeling neglected and they haven't been able to find it?

jason-slab
07-29-2003, 07:49 AM
sweet, can't wait for the new particle system:)

it's a pitty that everyone seems to have esablished that 3dsmax is joke.

|jason

-JT-
07-29-2003, 07:54 AM
Max 6 sounds nice, it's probably what the studios requested, i just wish they had a lighter/cheaper version (not everybody needs particles, paint studios, mental ray etc..).

headengine
07-29-2003, 09:37 AM
It's kind of sad and also predictable that this thread was going to turn into (mostly) a bitching session.

I have been using 3DStudio since R3, and Max, in a production (games) environment for years now, and I'd be the first to say that it can be a *major* pain in the ass: instant crashes for no apparent reason, still missing (even in max6!) core features that others have had for *ages* now.... I'll sound like a broken record if I continue.

However - this isn't my point. My point is, I have also been using Maya for a year or so, and while it's a great package - wonderful in many ways - it's just a different flavour of 3D tool. Its robust, but it also crashes. Sometimes its amazingly convoluted (for what we do with it) to do simple things. But... it's great.

I'm looking forward to using Max6 for games stuff, and I'm hoping a lot of stuff has been fixed as people have been saying earlier in the thread... I'm not here to defend Max, but a lot of game studios use it and they love it. It was the main tool in one of the biggest selling games of all time. Who cares? Titanic was the biggest movie of all time and we don't bang on about the great use of Lightwave, Maya, Soft, Nuke, other in-house tools.... what stands, what remains, is the movie - the art.

I just wish people would *finally* try and rise above the flame wars about which is best and just get on with doing good work, whatever they choose as their tool.

I mean - look at expose. I can't wait to get my book, and I don't really give a rats ass what package someone has used. I just know its going to be fantastic.

That's what we're here for, making great CG art in our chosen field. Let's please stop wasting our time talking about the tools in such a negative light...

mo_pic
07-29-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by mattregnier
mental-

haha, very true :D always seems like these guys a day late and a buck short, but i guess better late then never :)

At least Zbrush is still version 1.xx and they put many new features every time there is an update.

dell
07-29-2003, 10:05 AM
Man it's impossible to keep up with software, and the cost is a killer to. They should slow down a bit, I've only just got used to man r4 and learning 5?.:shame:

halo
07-29-2003, 11:33 AM
headengine, do you pay for max or just use it?....if you had pumped £1000's into max then i'd say your completely justified in complaining

i'm starting to wonder wether this is some royal f**kup by someone, because theres 0 comment or announcement by discreet either on their site or forum

if you think that people are just bashing for the sake of it go and have a look on discreets own board where people are just as vocal

Iain McFadzen
07-29-2003, 12:04 PM
Discreet are sneaky bastards. By releasing a "new" version of the software before they've fixed all the things that were wrong with the last one they effectively draw a line under their sloppy code every year, but never ever have to actualy fix it.

headengine
07-29-2003, 12:27 PM
Halo - last copy I actually bought was years ago, and yes, it did cost me thousands. Since then any copy of any softs I use have been bought by the companies where I have been employed... Max and Maya.

Regardless, I *was* complaining about the program... I just hate it when people single any one program out for special criticism. They all have good and bad points.

Hey - when I finally get to use Max6 if its flaky as some previous versions I'll be as vocal as anyone else about it... I'm just *hoping* it will be better.

Kind of a glass half empty/half full situation ;) We can but dream...

Steve Green
07-29-2003, 12:53 PM
I totally agree Iain,

if they refuse to release a service pack 2 to fix bugs like the collapsing editable poly/set key one, that's been known about for 6 months, then I doubt I will be upgrading.

I'm not about to go through the same buggy period for Max 6 and pay for the privilege.

- Steve

halo
07-29-2003, 01:24 PM
headengine - no worries, i just think that out of the apps i use at the moment max is the one that stinks the most and stings the most seeing as its the one i've piled more money into...dont get me wrong its not a bad app, its just what it should be

lets see what this upgrade brings in actual performance..im staring at the glass 1/2 full :)...its just that the bit i want is the top half ;)

sforsyth
07-29-2003, 01:27 PM
There *is* actually something on their website, it's just hidden under Press - Press releases - 3 articles down from the top. Seems like they're almost hushing it out the door...

Steve : could be that one of the 100 bug fixes they've done is precisely for that bug, question is, are you willing to fork out hundreds of dollars for the fix?

I have to agree, the idea that they can keep pushing new upgrades down our necks without having to accept responsibility for patches to fix major bugs really irks me. You're effectively paying upgrade prices in the hope that bug fixes will be included. Can you imagine if every software company did that? It appears the graphics industry is especially plagued by it, in games, problems are routinely addressed by patches, after all, you want to keep your customers happy, right?

xynaria
07-29-2003, 02:49 PM
http://www.discreet.com/products/3dsmax6/

Equinoxx
07-29-2003, 03:36 PM
From the Techspec PDF

Editable poly improvements include the integration of Meshsmooth and a new Isoline Display mode that keeps the artists focused on building good model topology without having to view every resulting polygon in the viewport

whoohoo finally Lightwave style edgedfaces view when smoothed :cool:

Ballo
07-29-2003, 03:54 PM
Where is?
- simulator hair
-cloth, beteer reactor.
-Improve videopost.
-Autorigging based on bones.
-NLA for bones.
-Nurbs?¿
-Better Booleans.
and more

Discreet is continued laughing of our intelligence. This is not max6, this is max 5.5, has many improvements, but
without surprise.

Steve Green
07-29-2003, 04:21 PM
This may be unfair, but whenever discreet unveil a new Max I'm reminded of the scene in Robocop where they unveil the ED-209

"I had a guaranteed military sale with ED209! Renovation program! Spare parts for 25 years! Who cares if it worked or not!"

- Steve

xynaria
07-29-2003, 04:53 PM
Schematic view was introduced in R3..it takes till R6 to make it of any real use......that's only 4 years.....Rome wasn't built in a day and all that and those poor souls were obviously so exhausted by this that there just weren't enough hours for them to tackle any other real concerns..after all they'd used up all the overtime designing the new logo and packaging. We can also look forward I'm sure to the massively improved extensions features to come which are bound to address all the other aforementioned woes....won't they??????
As for those who cynically deride Max's Nurbs ..they are wrong pure and simple.....how on earth could a major 3D player have a feature that didn't perform as desired for 4 years and ignore it ... it just wouldn't be possible.

Peter Reynolds
07-29-2003, 05:05 PM
Well said Steve Green.

Spot on with ED-209. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if ED-209 was a secret doctrine for many software developers of the last 10 years, not just discreet.

When companies such as Alias or Discreet release software upgrades in such a short period, do you start to worry that the "development" is a quick marketing ploy to juice existing customers because new sales aren't going so well?

Marc Andreoli
07-29-2003, 05:21 PM
and what is up with the swirl logo in every 3D app recently ? Lightwave has 'the wave', alias has 'the motion'...now 3DSmax has 'the 6' ?



p.s: does anybody have the lowdown on the mobile platform dev tools (discreet /criterion) that are supposed to be included ? cheers

http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/Images/newsHeaders/s_max6.jpg

slime
07-29-2003, 06:09 PM
Ballo>

>>Where is?
>>- simulator hair
shave and haircut for max is going to be released very soon, and I bet you will be surprised by it's power.

>>-cloth, beteer reactor.
stitch for the cloth is great! and reactor 2 is great news! (they are going to release reactor 2 with max 6) I think reactor 1.4 (max5) have fantastic rigid body / constraint simulation.

>>Discreet is continued laughing of our intelligence. This is not >>max6, this is max 5.5, has many improvements, but
>>without surprise.

The companies have their marketing "tricks", doesn't they? Don't look at the number, but at the features, and if you are not interested, don't buy the upgrade. :) And of course, if you are a registered user, you can always ask them for the features you need! ;)

cheers! :D

halo
07-29-2003, 06:36 PM
And of course, if you are a registered user, you can always ask them for the features you need!

LMFAO

Laa-Yosh
07-29-2003, 08:50 PM
Studios like Blizzard and Blur have managed to create quite good cloth and hair stuff since Max 3.1... Sure it's not in the package, but Maya doesn't have these features in Complete either.

raz-0
07-29-2003, 09:52 PM
ok, so everyone is now bitching about the "improved marketing" feature as a waste?

i can not even begin to count the number of posts on the discreet forum that are a variation on "why doesn't MAX have cool marketing like _____".

I think I just have to come to the conclusion that graphics professionals are some of the biggest whiners on theplanet when it comes to their tools. Seriously, I have never run into a group of people who complain more about software revisions.

I've heard the same complaining mantra over and over again for the most part for premier, photoshop, lightwave, MAX, maya, and those are just the ones I can name off the top of my head.

I mean hell, I paid for MAX, and frankly the things that anger me the most have nothing to do with the software. It has to do with their customer relations and their regional dealer program. The average max dealer is starting to make chrysler corp. dealers from the mid 80's look like cabelas.

Does it look like a killer app for drawing in new sales? Not really. But for adding on stuff prior to a rewrite, it looks like a good value for an upgrade. Hopefully they are working on a rewrite and have some of their muscle reallocated. Also, hopefully what they have made MAX 6 is their target for base features for the rewritten core and/or new product.

FabioMSilva
07-29-2003, 09:54 PM
this isnt quite new actually...there was alot of speculation on max R6 abilities quite a while ago.

when a new max is released its alwas troublesome for to ge the plugins for the new version...:surprised ...thank god max5 wasnt so troublesome....

Steve Green
07-29-2003, 10:18 PM
Raz-0

The biggest problem I have with Max and discreet in general, is their tendency to put in a new feature just so they can tick it off on a feature list, regardless of whether it is production-worthy or not.

The first release of flex bogged down immensely on sequences of more than a few seconds.

Editable poly in R4 was practically useless until scripts were written by users to make it worth using.

Skylight and Ink and Paint in R5 are slow as treacle.

The other gripe I have with them is their attitude to bug fixes. Max 5 had and still has a b*stard of a bug, which can destroy your mesh when using sub-object selections on editable poly, and set key on a totally unrelated object.

Discreet have known about this bug for months and have not released a fix, or even an e-mail to users to warn them about a bug which could cost them work.

When I complained about this on the official board, and asked if there would be a service pack, I got a response from the product manager who said 'It concerned them' but would not comment on future plans.

If they release 6 without fixing such a destructive bug as that, it says a great deal about what they think of their user base

I'm going to hold fire on commenting on the content of the R6 upgrade, excluding Pflow, I need to see the new features in action before I judge them worthwhile, or just eyecandy which are good for tradeshow demos.

- Steve

Marc Andreoli
07-29-2003, 10:41 PM
Originally posted by Steve Green
Raz-0

The biggest problem I have with Max and discreet in general, is their tendency to put in a new feature just so they can tick it off on a feature list, regardless of whether it is production-worthy or not.



very good point ! The schematic view is the prime example for this, and it has finally been fixed (apparently). Another one is 'animation blocks' for non-linear animation...it is in there, but is it working ?

Pixelmaestro
07-30-2003, 01:11 AM
I skipped the upgrade from 4.2 to 5. This is Discreet current offering for upgrade costs from their online store. Subscription costs can vary depending upon the reseller. Always bargain.

I will try to spend some time on the pre release 6 at a reseller first before I sign up. I spent some time with the 30 day Max 5 demo and was not impressed.

"*If you own 3ds max 4 software and have not yet upgraded to 3ds max 5, do so now, and purchase subscription to save yourself an additional upgrade cost once 3ds max 6 is released. Upgrading today from 3ds max 4 to 3ds max 5 + subscription: $795 + $390 =$1185. Upgrading after 3ds max 6 is released: $1295 + $390 =$1685. Savings: $500. Note, subscription must be purchased separately from a reseller within 30days of purchase from this store."

I still use Rhino for nurbs
Maya 3 for particles and dynamics, My upgrade cost to go from Maya 3 Complete to 5 saves me abou 100 bux from buying a new seat. My Maya seat is worth more as a competitive upgrade vehicle to purchase XSI.

Particle Flow and Reactor 2 will hopefully fix some kinks in my production pipeline.

holosynthetic
07-30-2003, 02:26 AM
what exactly are metaballs?..is it the same thing thats used in Digimations clay studio plugin? balls thats blend together when they get close enough?

AdamT
07-30-2003, 02:52 AM
Originally posted by holosynthetic
what exactly are metaballs?..is it the same thing thats used in Digimations clay studio plugin? balls thats blend together when they get close enough?
That's it. As a non-Max user I'm kind of shocked it's just getting metaballs now. Hell, trueSpace has had them for about three years!

cdg2003
07-30-2003, 03:28 AM
good!
if it have hair or fur then better! ;)

Marc Andreoli
07-30-2003, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by AdamT
That's it. As a non-Max user I'm kind of shocked it's just getting metaballs now. Hell, trueSpace has had them for about three years!

Max did have them as a particle type, though...

urgaffel
07-30-2003, 04:13 AM
Looks like a nice upgrade to me. Improved vertex paint, the 3d painting thing, particle flow (which rocks, thanks for the vids Brandon), reactor 2. And the mentalray connection looks like it's a lot better than the last version. Mirroring skinweights is finally included (although there are scripts for it for max5), and the new layout looks ace. Look at the screengrab of the character layout window, looks pretty nifty to me.

btw, xynaria, do you use max or do you just like to bitch and moan?

markdc
07-30-2003, 05:36 AM
I saw max6 at sig today: particle flow, reactor2, and mental ray all look amazing. Mental ray is completely integrated (you can still use max materials, render elements, backburner, etc). Particle flow is a node based particle system that really gives you great control. I didn't see the 3d painting (maybe tommorrow). There are also some nice enhancements to the schematic view (minor stuff, but useful). Looks like uv mapping also has some improvements. I think it's a pretty nice update. There's alot to see at sig and 7 hours goes by really fast.

robioto
07-30-2003, 06:06 AM
They decided not to include it because they weren't satisfied with the implementation. Maybe they will release it through subscription but it won't ship with 3dsmax 6.


-r

xynaria
07-30-2003, 06:43 AM
Forget about new features cos we are talking Di$$$$$$$$creet ok.....we get licenced technology that might have just been acceptable as R5 or even R5.5 we are talking shafting pure and simple .. none of the core stuff has been dealt with cos they want you to buy 'the next generation' *that doesn't exist* so they aren't gonna fix it.. cynical... why yes.... objectionable....why yes.. but you'll still buy.,,,,, why yes... end of sad and sorry and cynical story ... why yes!

eek
07-30-2003, 10:39 AM
edit vertex normals - only 7 years late!

-eek

-JT-
07-30-2003, 10:53 AM
How about a 3dsmax lighter/cheaper version ? i like 3dsmax a lot but not everybody needs particles, reactor etc...
Maxon has a nice approach with the modules, maya too with complete, even flash is making two apps (the rumor : matador and toreador or something like that).

holosynthetic
07-30-2003, 11:14 AM
in times like these I feel sorry for the programmers of companies that get bashed....i would be a bit angry if i slaved away at implimenting new features because discreet payed their employees to..then have all that work complained about. Discreet..i feel for you man!

i've never used particles before..so i'll probably get this upgrade cause of the pFlow, its something i would like to become familiar with

no info about the shell modifier, but it sounds good

iso what view for editable poly's?..someone mentioned it was something like lightwave does?..guess i'll find out

Frank_3D
07-30-2003, 11:30 AM
Have a look at this:

Discreet US – Press release:

3ds max 6 software is expected to be available in fall 2003 with pricing at US $3,495. Localized international versions will be available later in 2003. Upgrade pricing is US $795 from 3ds max 5, and US $1,295 from the 3ds max 4 release.



Discreet Germany – Press release:
(I translated it and transferred the prices to US$)

english version of 3ds max 6 software is expected to be available in fall 2003 with pricing at US $4,870 (+ Tax). The German version will be available later in 2003. Upgrade pricing is US $1,030 (+ Tax) from 3ds max 5, and US $1,715 (+ Tax) from the 3ds max 4 release.

And it is not allowed to run a US Version of 3ds max out of the United States :annoyed:

pff
07-30-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Frank_3D
Have a look at this:

Discreet US – Press release:

3ds max 6 software is expected to be available in fall 2003 with pricing at US $3,495. Localized international versions will be available later in 2003. Upgrade pricing is US $795 from 3ds max 5, and US $1,295 from the 3ds max 4 release.



Discreet Germany – Press release:
(I translated it and transferred the prices to US$)

english version of 3ds max 6 software is expected to be available in fall 2003 with pricing at US $4,870 (+ Tax). The German version will be available later in 2003. Upgrade pricing is US $1,030 (+ Tax) from 3ds max 5, and US $1,715 (+ Tax) from the 3ds max 4 release. And it is not allowed to run a US Version of 3ds max out of the United States :annoyed:



!!!! I am terrrified waiting for the prices in my country then!!!
What a joke!! They´re f***** killing the software off!!!

pff

MarkusB
07-30-2003, 12:31 PM
I use max since 3d Studio R2 now... and i must say that i am getting more and more angry with each update :annoyed:

if you are a professional max user you have most of the "new" features as a plugin.. and now i should pay a lot $ (or much more euro´s, because i am living in germany :thumbsdow ) for ther integration...

if this were free max 5.5 i would be happy ....

-Markus

PS: but he...we have "meatballs" now :buttrock:

eek
07-30-2003, 01:29 PM
ive stuck to max 4! waiting for the rewrite...

-eek

Onno
07-30-2003, 03:06 PM
Funny that 90% of the replies are only about how incredibly bad Discreet and 3D Max is... Is there nothing constructive to say other that starting the app-war for the (10 to the power 1000)th time?

I like 3D Max, a lot. The upgrade from 4 to 5 was IMHO a nice (r)evolution. The features they implemented (modeling + rendering + texturing wise) were awesome and made almost everything I did way way faster.
I too have to say that some of the stuff that are new (HDRI support! WOW! :p) in it aren't really spectacular, but I'd say wait until you have used it for yourself, compare it to the version you used before, before burning it down.

MarkusB
07-30-2003, 04:27 PM
Onno.. the thing is that as a max user i have to pay the highest price for everything..but not getting the best quality/feature/speed... as max 1 came out, everything (price/feature ratio) was fine... but from each version to the next, max getting more and more expensive !!! but features werent making the same big steps

i love(d) my max too... but everything is working 75% of possible 100% .. and that makes me sad. why isnt discreet making the features we have working 100% !!!! and then put in some great new things ?!!? which i can use 100%


and i couldnt see an awesome evolution in max 5 or max 6... sorry.... just some nice stuff coming in ..but not a reason for a major release.......


....discreet know why the doesnt allow the user to resell their max-packages....

xynaria
07-30-2003, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by Onno
Funny that 90% of the replies are only about how incredibly bad Discreet and 3D Max is... Is there nothing constructive to say other that starting the app-war for the (10 to the power 1000)th time?

I
There would be a lot constructive to say if people didn't feel Discreet were shafting them.. but then some real developmemt and fixing would have to have been done.

Signal2Noise
07-30-2003, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by xynaria
There would be a lot constructive to say if people didn't feel Discreet were shafting them..

I'll bet dollars to donuts that quite a few max 'users' are shafting discreet (re: warez):annoyed:

MarkusB
07-30-2003, 04:35 PM
i couldnt believe that i am the only one on this planet who is for example dissatisfied with the slow viewport-performance... especially with meshsmooth and bones (ik/fk).....

this is a known problem ... but nothing changes

renato
07-30-2003, 05:43 PM
People out there are managing to do some amazing things with max so all i have to say is:

"Poor craftsmen always blames their tools"

MarkusB
07-30-2003, 05:57 PM
ohh.. yeah... i am such a poor craftsman that i manage , just with my physical presence, that the max viewport slows down :)

pff
07-30-2003, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by renato
People out there are managing to do some amazing things with max so all i have to say is:

"Poor craftsmen always blames their tools"



Yeah? I am certain there are tons of people here wanting improvements w 3ds since they actually DO stuff with their software and has PAYED for it too.

I am sorry i get suspicious of people glorifying 3ds. Know how heavy my crashing scenes are and have tried M*** too know that it at least CAN be a shi*load better. I would like 3ds up there too. Especially for that price.

I do love having 3ds as a working environment, but belong to the people wanting major improvements and a price cut too.

pff

mattregnier
07-30-2003, 06:21 PM
I've been using max now in production for almost 2 years at work, have gone through 2 revisions, and I must say that discreet has always given me support when I needed it. Sure I run into the occasional Your scene has had an error while working in it and it will close, but you are gonna get that with any software. I've been pleased with the updates and have thought all to be worth the money to upgrade. I have 7 renderboxes here, and was totally impressed with the backburner software updates that came with version 5 of max. I'm eagerly awaiting max 6 now, so

Onno-

I'm with you, I'm not here to bash Max or Discreet, as I've had next to nothing as far as problems are concerned.

*ducks and covers -> :D

Renato-

You totally hit it man! you totally hit the nail on the head :D

KiboOst
07-30-2003, 06:32 PM
So it's because of you markus ? these slow viewports ? The hell on you !! Does old booleans/nurbs not touched for years also is because you ? And this high price compared to the rest of the world (no, discreet isn't alone) ? And the fact that after 5yers, we will have metaballs and usufull schematic (hopes) ? Dudes, we now have to kill you !!

Seriously, I, like 90% of max users, am really sad about max6 announcement, as mr and many stuff don't interest me. Anyway, I will give max6 a chance by waiting to get my hand on it before saying it's crap. But sure it's not worth its price, and willl still drag years old useless stuffs !

The sole reason I can see is that after all those people who touched the core, Discreet himself dunno how to enhance/fix it. But this mean that they should have started rewrite their entire new architecture/core (even standed on actual workflow/ui, so HyperMax could use new ParticleFlow, IK, mr integration, new schem, unxrap, polys, etc) for a while now.

What should seems right to me is releasing a free bugfix/mr integration, and officially say "we know where max is, we are coding our all new core for the future, it should be ready soon, so we give you this bugfix/minor enhancement to keep you patients".
And no "give us your money, even more than a full maya seat, and be happy with that". It somehow is like that actually.

But once more, wait and see max6, while our boss pay the upgrade !

My 3cents

Kib

Steve Green
07-30-2003, 06:32 PM
'Bad workmen blaming their tools'?

OK, Renato

try this

1. create a cube

2. convert to editable poly

3. select the top 4 vertices

4. go out of vertex level of the editable cube, without deselecting your vertices and create a sphere.

5 Turn set key on and start setting transform keys for your sphere

Scrub the timeline and watch the cube you created collapse on itself.


I would expect a modeling and animation package to at least create a cube and sphere and to then animate it without the danger of it going kablooey.

- Steve

youknowjack
07-30-2003, 06:52 PM
Wow, that was crazy!

The top of the cube got collapsed!

No wonder you guys are angry if they don't fix it up.

Jack

(newcomer)

Steve Green
07-30-2003, 06:57 PM
What is really nasty about this is it's not related to what you are working on, I was working on a project and had finished the modeling days ago, but had left some vertices selected at the sub-object level.

Then when I went to animate, my models collapsed - not the best thing to happen when you're on a deadline.

Discreet have had this as a reproducible bug since at least March.

And that's the reason I'm so narked at them, there are more important things than new features...

- Steve

trex4d
07-30-2003, 08:06 PM
Big MAX6 images...if You are interested in...
http://www.discreet.com/press/imagelib/3dsmax.html
:p

MarkusB
07-30-2003, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Steve Green
What is really nasty about this is it's not related to what you are working on, I was working on a project and had finished the modeling days ago, but had left some vertices selected at the sub-object level.

Then when I went to animate, my models collapsed - not the best thing to happen when you're on a deadline.

Discreet have had this as a reproducible bug since at least March.

And that's the reason I'm so narked at them, there are more important things than new features...

- Steve

Hi Steve,

thats exactly the point ..there are a lot of small bugs, which make the life of a max user really a pain in some situations. I know that the world isnt black and white and the other 3d-packages have their own problems... but if a bug or a "bad behavior" is known for a couple of months, then i expect form discreet that, if they charge me nearly 1000 Euros for an update, this is fixed in the update!!!!

and Steve.. I could only repeat myself.... I dont see the new features in max 6 (ok.. there a some small)!!! All I see is an integration of features or plugins that all professionals are using since months/years.

I could only speak for myself...but i am not really happy about the integration of a full mental ray version. I dont need it, because i am a member of the stage-1 beta team and i am pretty sure that all other guys out there, who dont like stage-1, are having vray or brazil... so why put in the most expensive renderer in max6!?!?!?

I had prefered stage-1 or vray !!! They cost less and all freelancer didnt have to spend money for there render-slaves!!

holosynthetic
07-30-2003, 09:44 PM
when i got a price estimate for mental ray 2.1 for max back in november, the sales rep said it was going for $3000.....

an update thats only $800 US with mental ray 3.2 and other new stuff is well worth it i would say

MarkusB
07-30-2003, 09:47 PM
if you need mental ray..sure !!!

maybe i can write a letter to discreet if they would sell me max6 update WITHOUT mental ray for ...maybe 250$ :rolleyes:

stone indian
07-31-2003, 12:34 AM
Steve Green,


I tried your little experiment, and had no problems in max 5.
I've been using max for about 7 yrs. and I think it does a great job. I agree with the statment,'Bad workmen blaming their tools'.
I've heard people for too any years complain about things in max that I've had no problem with. And I can't begin to count the number of times that I heard people say max can't do this and max can't do that. All things that I have done with max. So know your tool and Love your tool. So what if their are little bug, do what everyone else does work around them and quit cring.

Marty

pff
07-31-2003, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by stone indian
Steve Green,


I tried your little experiment, and had no problems in max 5.
I've been using max for about 7 yrs. and I think it does a great job. I agree with the statment,'Bad workmen blaming their tools'.
I've heard people for too any years complain about things in max that I've had no problem with. And I can't begin to count the number of times that I heard people say max can't do this and max can't do that. All things that I have done with max. So know your tool and Love your tool. So what if their are little bug, do what everyone else does work around them and quit cring.

Marty



LOOOOOL! Marty, i don´t wanna downsize the importance of vizualization and interactive multimedia or anything, that line of work is kewl and all, HOWEVER; there is a MAJOR difference between what you do and the variety of work more general 3ds artists do. No wonder you aren´t having problems w max. :)

There is a shitloa* of stuff 3ds SHOULD have been able to do, wouldn´t it just choke under the pressure, wich really isn´t good enough, especially considering the price of the software.

pff

Steve Green
07-31-2003, 08:47 AM
Stone Indian,

I'm not a newbie, I've been using Max since its first version, and 3DS DOS before that.

I find your attitude unbelievable - of course there are going to be bugs in any programme - the difference is how the company deals with them, and treats their users.

Discreet have acknowledged and confirmed this bug months ago, and I have seen other people report it. Just because you can't reproduce it, doesn't mean it's not important.

This bug should be in the FAQ, which I have pointed out to an FA on the webboard, and they have not added it. Making users aware of bugs is the very least they could do.

I lost a shedload of work because of this, which I had to redo by doing a couple of all-nighters.

Think of it this way, if someone bought a new seat of Max, and in their first work animating with it, what kind of impression do you think that gives?

Honestly, at times I think I care about how Max is perceived more than discreet does.

If I hit a nail with a hammer, I don't expect the head to fly off and break the chair I've just built.

- Steve

Steve Green
07-31-2003, 11:15 AM
BTW this bug was not in the original 5, it was introduced in the 5.1 patch to fix other bugs, and was not fixed in Service Pack 1.

However, I am very wary of rolling back to older versions of Max, when I already have files saved in the 5.1 format.

- Steve

stone indian
07-31-2003, 04:15 PM
Pff,

"there is a MAJOR difference between what you do and the variety of work more general 3ds artists do. No wonder you aren´t having problems w max."

Thanks for looking at my web page and all, But I think that you underestimate what I do and have done. you say there is "Major" diffrence between what I do And the variety of work that other 3d artists do. Just because I work mainly in Multimedia, Don't assume that I haven't touched other areas, like Film, t.v. adds, product design, ect..... because I have. And I still have no complants with max.


Marty

lragno
07-31-2003, 05:04 PM
well, what can be done in order for discreet to fix max?

petitions, boycotts, angry letters, contact the resellers?

anybody got any ties in with discreet?

let's use the power of these forums and maybe get some results.

power to the people:thumbsup:

eek
07-31-2003, 10:17 PM
"Poor craftsmen always blames their tools" ok what if the tools in the first place are dented,scratched and blunt as anything!

I can see the point if the tools are good in the first place, but using tools that arnt doesnt help anyone. Im not saying max is bad, i love it and have stuck to it through any other software ive used, but these updates are bad- adding things that came out on other software five years ago! eek! Problem is max is a jack of all trades and either needs to boost specific parts e.g animation, particles, in each update or go this way in its orientation. eg. be a cutting edge effects tools or animation system.

eek

iamdaddy
07-31-2003, 10:53 PM
Hey,

It's my first time posting here and I thought I would give some opinions.

First of all, I've tackled many bugs with Max, not as long as some, but since the release of Max 1. I come from a background where I was using Alias Studio v5. I had the opportunity to start using Max and I haven't looked back from there. An old professor of mine would show me some cool feature in Alias and say look what Alias can do. I would then have to make sure that Max could do it too.....I never failed. Max had it's problems and so did Alias. We could complain about the problem or move on with our lives and work around it.

Any way, I'm going to post a quote from the NEW Product Manager for Max from the Discreet forum, it makes me feel better about the direction they are headed. As some of you may know, the old Product Manager left Discreet and now we have a new one. Maybe he will put this program on track.

Here's the qoute it was a response to a max user:

"I think that you hit the nail on the head. It has been my intention from the beginning of 3ds max 6 to focus a lot of our energies on fixing pre-existing bugs and not just to focus on our existing tools. Our move to vc7 has also helped make this happen as any time one ports in this manner it brings bugs to the surface (which were fixed). I am confident that 3ds max 6.0 will meet your stability needs.

Also, note that much of the development in 3ds max 6 is focused on making existing features far better. We wanted to take what was already there but going under utilized and making them something that you could count on every day.

Dan Prochazka
product manager 3ds max
discreet"

I know this won't appease anyone, but it makes me think there may be a good future there.

TH

StefanDidak
08-01-2003, 03:32 AM
Originally posted by iamdaddy
Any way, I'm going to post a quote from the NEW Product Manager for Max from the Discreet forum

Dan isn't new to Discreet and not even the new product manager. He's been that for the past year (or close to a year if I haven't lost track of time) and was formerly the PM for CS for several years.

As some of you may know, the old Product Manager left Discreet

"Left" in a real hurry after he started making incorrect insinuations to various parties (both within and outside of Discreet) behind my back... or maybe it was in a hurry right after it became a legal issue for Autodesk in which it was a factor. Autodesk lost a huge case they had from Vermont Micro due to litigation of their e-mail records... I bet they didn't want to risk that again. The poor man didn't even have the time to do the "leaving because I wish to spend more time with the family" graceful exit. Strange how people always seem to 'vanish' after an inferno when the smoke sets in (ok, bad pun). :)

urgaffel
08-01-2003, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by Steve Green
This bug should be in the FAQ, which I have pointed out to an FA on the webboard, and they have not added it. Making users aware of bugs is the very least they could do.

I lost a shedload of work because of this, which I had to redo by doing a couple of all-nighters.

Just curious, but what about the autosaves? Shouldn't they have a fairly recent version that you could use, or did it corrupt the autosaveS too? Or had you turned them off for performance gains? (I know how hellish it can be to have autosave grind max to a halt while saving an architectural model...)

MCronin
08-01-2003, 05:17 AM
Originally posted by iamdaddy


"I think that you hit the nail on the head. It has been my intention from the beginning of 3ds max 6 to focus a lot of our energies on fixing pre-existing bugs and not just to focus on our existing tools. Our move to vc7 has also helped make this happen as any time one ports in this manner it brings bugs to the surface (which were fixed). I am confident that 3ds max 6.0 will meet your stability needs.

Also, note that much of the development in 3ds max 6 is focused on making existing features far better. We wanted to take what was already there but going under utilized and making them something that you could count on every day.

Dan Prochazka
product manager 3ds max
discreet"

I know this won't appease anyone, but it makes me think there may be a good future there.

TH

I dunno, if I were a Max user this would really aggravate me. He's basicly saying this major version is mostly going to be a bug fix. So, you are paying full upgrade price for fixes that should be a free point release to existing licensees.

slime
08-01-2003, 05:20 AM
:rolleyes:
why don't you check the software before posting such things?
There are a lot of new features in v6.

RockinAkin
08-01-2003, 05:31 AM
Looking VERY forward to upgrading to max 6.

Steve Green
08-01-2003, 08:37 AM
The collapsing bug is a bit of an oddity, the potential to screw up your mesh is there in the autosaves as well. It's more like it's something that is waiting to be triggered.

The problem with it is that the effect varies from situation to situation, if you don't know about it then it could only affect a tiny portion of the scene, going unnoticed until you render. But still something that could cost you money.

This is a particular problem on a large scene, where you might turn box mode on, or hide models to speed up the viewport. Something you modelled a day ago, or is over the other side of a city could collapse and you wouldn't immediately notice.

Once you know the bug, it can be circumvented, but if you don't it can be bewildering and annoying because it just seems like Max is randomly collapsing your mesh.

Solutions are

Don't use set key

Don't use editable poly

Make sure you don't have sub-object selections on editable polys if you are using set key

Set a key on everything on frame 0, even if it doesn't move.


Cheers,

Steve

mouj
08-01-2003, 10:51 AM
Sorry to pop in like that.. I am just amazed at the number of people bitching and ranting that this version does not feature enough new stuff, does not feature this and that, when a couple months / weeks ago, most of the very same people were saying that all they could wish for in this next release was stability and bug fixing.
I'm looking foward to Max6, maybe the fact there is not 'that much' new features is a good point and means that bugs have been a priority ?
Anyhow, i won't be able to tell anything until i can play with it.

my 2 cents

mouj

Dominique
08-01-2003, 05:46 PM
Sure it's going to be a good one,
I'm confident.

Dom

lragno
08-03-2003, 08:21 PM
for those that may not be aware of it:

http://www.discreet.com/support/max/bug_reporting.html

^Lele^
08-05-2003, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by Onno
Funny that 90% of the replies are only about how incredibly bad Discreet and 3D Max is... Is there nothing constructive to say other that starting the app-war for the (10 to the power 1000)th time?

I like 3D Max, a lot. The upgrade from 4 to 5 was IMHO a nice (r)evolution. The features they implemented (modeling + rendering + texturing wise) were awesome and made almost everything I did way way faster.
I too have to say that some of the stuff that are new (HDRI support! WOW! :p) in it aren't really spectacular, but I'd say wait until you have used it for yourself, compare it to the version you used before, before burning it down.

Starded wit 3DS2, i was authorized as a trainer in max 1, and kept following it since.

The core in itself was and remains pretty revolutionary, and in terms of ease of use, and readily available power, is in my opinion still unbeatable.

The material interface has very few flaws, is completely hierahical, and can be reliably and quickly wired to (scripted) parameters.

From the Kinetix Times, Autodesk decided to market max as a Plugin platform, rather than a complete software (and the evolution has decidedly been in that direction: every new version cannibalises some plugin on the market, sells for roughly the same price - but varies with the market conditions quite sensibly, as App*e ShakeforPC demonstrates- and adds as integrated a few more functionalities).

Some bugs get fixed, some introduced.
Most of the time, with each release u're saving a few dollars in plugins (well around the grand), some of wich u'll need, some of wich ur neighbour will.

Everyone is free to evaluate a new release, these days, and is not uncommon that studios, or even freelancers can get demo licenses lasting whichever amount of time (of course it goes for most, if not all the other softwares too).

You use max to work, or just as a passion, well, you have to know what plugin does what for your software, what script takes you around this or that bug, and yes, post yellow notes to the monitor to remember what you shouldn't do. Hands up the ones wich use the perfect 3d tool, please.

When you check it out as a demo, well, you might see the new particle system being just as useful as a sandblaster (erm, i'm gasping for air if that's the case...), or maybe better than a bleeding edge integration of thinking particles technology (see C4* 8, in example... Anybody turned that "upgrade" down, by chance? TP has been available for max from release 4, and used in many a Feature, at a very affordable price). like it, or not :) Buy it, or stick to Whatever you prefer...

Somebody said that Humans tend to forget the good, and remember the bad...

The Gi of max 5 was production proven Lightscape Technology for ONE engine, and something that look, felt behaved and ran as fast as an integrated release of brazil for the OTHER. (that makes two VERY different engines for the price of one... Lightscape used to sell around 10k if i'm not mistaken, just a few years ago).

1.2 Million polygon of very finely detailed buildings on a VERY large City area, one area light, and a skylight, three GI bounces with the full lot of rendering capabilities, extensive raytracing and some gig and a half of textures, rendering in twenty minute a frame on dual 1gig P3 at full 16:9 pal? SLOW? :shame:

Am i mistaken, or max is still the only one to show a FULL radiosity + soft shadows solution in viewport? And the realtime HDR Exposure + realtime blur? Or the Radiosity painting? And the FREE 32Bpc HDRI support trough the kind Splutterfish People? And the Full 96bpp RPF image format, the automatic pass generation, the tight integration with combustion... Something might not be at 100%, something might be at even 50%. I use it daily, the whole concept works, and delivers.

Peeps, the sun shines bright in august... Cheer for whoever steps a bit farther in some area, be it max 6, S*ft, X*I, Ma*a, or C4*... we'll all benefit in a way or in the other.

I generally talk too much, by the way.

Lele

zen
08-05-2003, 10:41 PM
whats with the *'s ? on names except max...

Revolutionary core huh? wow, and i thought i was sold. I mean its cool to like your tools and be a fan... but, sorry, your just oblivious. Do you have any production experience on other platforms? Or in fields other than viz?

Maybe thats why ILM and PIXAR use Soft and maya, cause 3Dmax, the bestest program of all time, is just too gosh darn advanced for them right?

Your "revolutionary" core is a hacked autocad, emulating 3d space on a primarly 2d engine. (this is why your z goes up btw). The coordinate system is seriously f*cked up. Anyone of experience who writes scripts in max knows this. My coworker who is a scripting genius spends half his time trying to hack the correct numbers out of max, as it often gives the wrong ones or outright lies! It causes a great deal of headaches when he is able to acheive what he wants very easily and quickly in "less revolutionary" platforms such as softimage|3D. Even in soft|3d every nodes local, global, and parent coordinates were readily available.
Your "revolutionary" core is one of the only cores that has circular dependecies inside its own node controllers. Thats without any scripts, expressions, constraints or whatnot, the circular dependencies just exist all the time! posxyz, rotxyz, scalxyz, theyre all intertwined all the time! its insane!!:thumbsdow

If the rest of you guys want to know why this release is so cheap (i especially love the "camera zoom" in the new features column hehe), Its because discreet has probably pulled alot of dev people off of 3dmax and are concentrating their efforts elsewhere. This is because as some of you might know, v6 is the end of the line and the next release is a complete rewrite from the ground up. a completely new product. The down side to this is that software RnD is usually low-income high-cost, ie they need money, and thats probably where this release comes in.
This is unfortunate and after seeing the new feature list, i would feel ripped off as well.
Hopefully the next discreet 3d platform will be more "revolutionary" than this one.

Steve Green
08-05-2003, 10:49 PM
You are joking, aren't you? Saying Lighttracer is comparable to Brazil 1.x?

Why, Splutterfish could have saved themself an awful lot of time if that was the case...

- Steve

DaJuice
08-05-2003, 11:01 PM
The radiosity in MAX/VIZ was never as good as lightscape. Faster? Maybe. Better looking? Hell no!

googlo
08-05-2003, 11:47 PM
as it often gives the wrong ones or outright lies!.

Yeah you're right, it's not the genius programmer who is doing something wrong, it's the program being mischievous..

zen
08-06-2003, 06:18 AM
actually, yes.
The coordinate system is screwed up and plagued with circular dependencies. It is not at all node-based and often gives out the wrong numbers, wrong source pivot reference or the numbers arent accesible at all (such as biped rotation values).
This causes some great frustration when creating advanced scripts such as for procedural animation.
i mean, heirarchy animation doesnt even work well.
Whats sad though is that the coordinate system is at the core, and i dont think discreet can fix it. the code is too deep and branched out into too many dependent functions.

And btw, when i say procedural animation i dont mean clock handles moving, i mean a crowd of soldiers moving over a hill, at random speeds and random positions. Walk cycles, no feet slipage, variable walkcycle speed, the whole deal with no fcurves, completely math-expression animation. This was done in soft|3d but cannot be done in max.

^Lele^
08-06-2003, 12:17 PM
Uh boy, i raised an issue.

I do not think to deserve a Wow effect from you, Zen, nor i accept it. There's no place anywhere on this site wehre it says i can be bossed around by whoever here is an older poster, and PRESUMES on the base of my post to have more experience.

My opinions are here to be discussed, not taken the piss.
Like the *s. Do not fancy them, fill the gaps yourself.
IF, that is, there's no EVIL math gremlin in your browser, too.
READ, mate. Do not INTERPRET.

I have experience of PRODUCTION scripting, and it works for me.
And not of just Max.
Actually, translation of coordinates from MAX (Right Hand 3d, Z-Up, coordinate System) to LW (Left handed, Y-up, CS) worked to quite a degree, and i could dump points spatial informations fromMAX, and REBUILD a correctly orientated mesh in LW Modeler, with coordinate and references working. And that worked for ANY existing 3d entity u could view, and animate using u prefered method (i needed it for Cloth sims).

As for what you use for your projects, well. You are on the bleeding edge of technology? wanna reinvent a Piccolo scripting Language when is there already? Feel free to exercise, but do not blame on tools wich are there for GENERAL PURPOSE.
Took SI a few years to develop their crowd sim system, and so to WETA.
And you genius friend tries doing it with maxscript? Boy, i don't doubt the scripting skills, but pick your fights better...
Soft does it? Extremely good. Go on, then, you're sorted :D

But do not blame it on Max. It works for the rest of people that daily build their tiny scripting tools, with an easy enough scripting system, and if nobody told you, the world does NOT end at your doorstep.

I'd be dead curious to SEE where max LIES with numbers, and how comes u can't get rotation information out of biped parts ( i can see a BILLION ways to get those rotation out, even, if it was the case, by rebuilding a standard geometry mesh parented to the individual Bibed parts, and measuring ITS rotations). Ever heard the tale of Columbus' Egg?

To put it in another way: Give a scalpel to Michelangelo, and he'll create the David for you. Give it to me, and expect quite a mess.

Sure, i could well blame the scalpel. :surprised

No complaints from Splutterfish, Cebas, Digimation or sitnisati or animalLogic. So i really think is a matter of skills, rather than of tools.
You, and your scripting genius friend, Zen, are entitled to think else, of it, of course.

As for my experience production, i have a wee bit of it.
I might not be as good, ar as genial as you scripting guru friend, mate, but that's like discussing the sex of angels, and most definitely not up to your personal judgement.
The fact that i don't go around STATING i am a genius does not mean u are entitled to treat me as a fool.
My skills are beside the point of this post, and i'd gladly invite you to be a bit more civil in your later posts (as i'm sure this one too will be torn apart
in the samee fashion)

As for Max 5 GI engines, i wasn't SO accurate in my previous post, i agree.
Brazil 1.x is a complete Rendering pipeline, and shaders, lights, cameras and the lost are of course a different thing from max's Lighttracer.
But i NEVER mentioned in my post a Brazil 1.x release.
What is NOT so different, though, is the QMC sampler's way of behaving.
I invite any skeptic to exhume a brazil 0.x free beta, prepare a test scene, set your GI parameters in BR, and render. Then switch to Max lighttracer, set your parameters (ups, they really look the same, just in a slightly different orientation pattern in the dialogs) and render.

Times are VERY similar, so are pitfalls. Only difference i could see was in the antialiasing method, as Max uses a scanline AA on top of a (under)sampled GI solution, whereas BR uses adaptive oversampling, wich is quite a bit slower.
Now, of course any discreet coder could have developed it own QMC sampler.
Have you ever seen discreet doing it? Would u throw away all these years of collaboration with the BLUR studios (raytrace material, try pressing the "About" button) just to rewrite one of their own? It feels more possible that they simply went to Blur/splutterfish, and asked for a helping hand. But we should ask them...
(notice, please, that a year and a half ago, by the time max 5 was beta, the biggets thing on the market -MAX's Market that is!- sounded like Brazil, while still in beta, and it could have made a HELL of a lot of sense to knock at that door... - alternatively, they could have asked to our scripting genius friend, wich would have blamed maxscript, or max's APIs, and we would have never gotten a GI engine for max. Maybe for soft, just maybe)

I'm italian, and possess quite a temper. Sorry if i heat up, i do not mean any harm :beer:
Just cheap polemics and arbitrary assumptions drive me crazy.

Lele

Steve Green
08-06-2003, 12:47 PM
Hi,

You should have been more specific as to what you meant by Brazil.

I think comparing the current Max 5 Lighttracer engine with an old free beta of Brazil, (now called Orchid to avoid confusion) is unfair. Lighttracer is pretty basic, IMHO. The free version of Vray knocks it for six, so I'm not sure why you think it is that great.

- Steve

Steve Green
08-06-2003, 12:53 PM
"And btw, when i say procedural animation i dont mean clock handles moving, i mean a crowd of soldiers moving over a hill, at random speeds and random positions. Walk cycles, no feet slipage, variable walkcycle speed, the whole deal with no fcurves, completely math-expression animation. This was done in soft|3d but cannot be done in max."

http://www.adamwatkins.com/mayhem.htm

OK, the animation is a little rough in places, but this guy has certainly managed to circumvent any limitations.

- Steve

^Lele^
08-06-2003, 01:43 PM
Originally posted by Steve Green
Hi,

You should have been more specific as to what you meant by Brazil.

I think comparing the current Max 5 Lighttracer engine with an old free beta of Brazil, (now called Orchid to avoid confusion) is unfair. Lighttracer is pretty basic, IMHO. The free version of Vray knocks it for six, so I'm not sure why you think it is that great.

- Steve

Beacuse it shipped with max 5 at no added price, and Does GI calculations in a reliable way?
I know, and love Vray, personally. But i wasn't discussing the quality of what's on the market, but the quality of something that shipped with MAX.
And as for your animations, well... :D
What better an answer to the limitations of max :D

Lele

danne82
08-06-2003, 03:26 PM
discreet introduce max6 (http://www.eeye.us/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=9&t=812&)

don´t know if you have posted the url here, it´s a link to another forum that I´m running don´t have time right now to follow that link and copy and paste so you have to visit that forum and then click on the first link there... shouldn´t be too hard :beer: :buttrock:

Ze PilOt
08-06-2003, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by ^Lele^

I'd be dead curious to SEE where max LIES with numbersLele

Don't know about scripting, but try this (wait, max loading Zzzz²²²)


Ok, I take a sphere and select some polys :

http://www.thepilot.easynet.be/max/max1.jpg

Then I move the poly in LOCAL mode in the Z axis

http://www.thepilot.easynet.be/max/max2.jpg


Ok, no problems.

Then on the Y axis

http://www.thepilot.easynet.be/max/max3.jpg

but.. ???

and the X axis

http://www.thepilot.easynet.be/max/max4.jpg

what the **** ???

Very great tool, you can't move some poly on local mode without having a bug :-/

Ok, I open XSI and try the same thing :

http://www.thepilot.easynet.be/max/xsi.jpg

But it's certainly my fault, I can't use the tool :(

zen
08-06-2003, 04:22 PM
So your italian huh? Im french canadian myself. 13th generation actually. My ancestors moved here from the north of france and NOBODY CARES.

side note for steve greene - I saw that before. mayhem is a nice project, although id like to see it on something other than perfectly flat ground. But its not at all what i was talking about. Mayhem is basically a scripted 2d particle system, with a control script assigning pre-fabricated animation clips from a database to nodes using a conditional rule set. But the animation is motion data. I was talking about procedural (math equasion-based) animation. No running scripts, all realtime on-the-fly animation. While the scene i referred to was more of an experiment, its applications can be important in realtime usage such as gaming.

And here another little max coordinates funny from my coworker, just copy and run:

--This creates some odd-scaled objects
Box lengthsegs:1 widthsegs:1 heightsegs:1 length:25.4312 width:29.0716 height:34.2855 mapCoords:off pos:[-3.06505,-9.77762,0] isSelected:on
copy $Box01 isSelected:on name:"Box02"
$Box02.pos = [-3.06505,-9.77762,37.2201]
copy $Box02 isSelected:on name:"Box03"
$Box03.pos = [-3.06505,-9.77762,74.4403]
copy $Box03 isSelected:on name:"Box04"
$Box04.pos = [-3.06505,-9.77762,110.331]
$Box02.scale = [0.3,3,1]
$Box03.scale = [5,0.232438,1]
$Box04.scale = [0.2934,0.232428,3.25648]
$Box01.scale = [1.69021,1.69021,1]

--this links them
max link
clearSelection()
select $Box04
$.parent = $Box03
select $Box03
$.parent = $Box02
select $Box02
$.parent = $Box01


--this sets up the pain
select $Box03
max rotate
toolMode.coordsys #local

--this shows you a bug I saw way back in 3D studio 2.0 for dos (before max even existed)
messagebox "Go ahead now and try to rotate \n this object on ANY axis\n \n Let me know what it's doing and \n don't say I had to use \nXform to scale an object\n because that's insane\n\n Maya, Houdini, XSI, and Soft3D\n never do this\n\nby the 'idiot-genius'\n P.s. No that's not perspective\nOMG?!?! what happened to the axis" title: "MAX COORDINATE FUN"

http://pages.infinit.net/monkey3d/share/cubes_of_wrath.jpg

oh and thanks to ze pilot for another clear demonstration.

!

Steve Green
08-06-2003, 05:17 PM
Hi Zen,

I know you weren't, what I meant is that there's more than one way to skin a cat (or have soldiers marching about).

If they haven't fixed what's apparently wrong with Max now, I doubt they ever will in its current incarnation, so ways have to be found round the problem. I'd like to see what Adam has got lined up with Mayhem.

Hopefully the next gen will be a fresh start without all the baggage of 6 releases of Max.

I've never got into scripting or expressions so this is way over my head, but has this topic ever come up on the official boards? I'd like to hear some explanations on why it's like this from discreet.

- Steve

DaWhirlpool
08-06-2003, 06:09 PM
Zen might be harsh, but he speaks his mind. If you disagree that's fine... speaking of disagreeing:

"I'd be dead curious to SEE where max LIES with numbers, and how comes u can't get rotation information out of biped parts ( i can see a BILLION ways to get those rotation out, even, if it was the case, by rebuilding a standard geometry mesh parented to the individual Bibed parts, and measuring ITS rotations). Ever heard the tale of Columbus' Egg?"

If I parent object A to Object B and then rotate B... A's rotation will be 0,0,0... hence "parenting". Unless you meant constrain? Have you tried it on a biped? Try to get the rotation value out of a constrained object from a biped using expressions (debug will give 0,0,0). Have you tried all the .rotations available through scripts? They give you numbers, but none them match the real "parent" one you see in max's viewport. Remember that Biped works on global positions. You should really try it before you assume it's easy. Good thing somebody named Grant Adam created a script that converts biped to normal geometry... hey! there's f-curves now! Wow!

"As for my experience production, i have a wee bit of it."
I'm happy for you... any in animation or rigging?


DaWhirlpool
P.s. I'm Spanish but NOBODY CARES

DaWhirlpool
08-06-2003, 06:22 PM
"If they haven't fixed what's apparently wrong with Max now, I doubt they ever will in its current incarnation, so ways have to be found round the problem."

That's exactly what I've been doing... finding work-arounds. Sure there's always a way... but it shouldn't have to be like that. I wrote a quick particle system that simulated a torch in 2 hours in Soft/3d, it took me 2 days to reproduce it in Max. I am not exagerating.

"I've never got into scripting or expressions so this is way over my head, but has this topic ever come up on the official boards?"

"official" boards tend to defend their software unreasonably. They never admit there's some serious flaws in Max. Don't get me wrong, I use it and there's options in it that I love but I no longer consider using Max for any personal projects that might have some trickiness to them.

DaWhirlpool

Cyberdigitus
08-06-2003, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by DaWhirlpool
I wrote a quick particle system that simulated a torch in 2 hours in Soft/3d, it took me 2 days to reproduce it in Max. I am not exagerating.

well, since this is a thread about 3ds max r6 features, i guess you will be happy that particle flow will be in...

Steve Green
08-06-2003, 06:52 PM
I would like to see the effect you were trying to achieve, and what the result was in SI - any chance of it being posted. I'm just curious to see if I can replicate it in less than 2 days in Max.

I still think it would be worth posting these on the boards, particularly if you've got reproducible examples like the local axis one - when presented with something like that, it's very difficult for a company to defend it.

- Steve

John-Stetzer
08-06-2003, 08:08 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ze PilOt

>>Let me know what it's doing...

Check the Max help, topic Select and Non-Uniform Scale, the "Important" section at the the bottom.

>>and don't say I had to use Xform to scale an object...

You don't have to use an Xform modifier for your scaling (tho' that would have properly preserved the transform of the object). Going to the Hierarchy tab and pressing Reset: Scale prior to linking or going to the Utilities Panel and using Reset Xform on the objects (again, prior to linking) would work. Or you could have scaled at the sub-object level; scaling there will not adversely affect the transform of the object.

DaWhirlpool
08-06-2003, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Cyberdigitus
well, since this is a thread about 3ds max r6 features, i guess you will be happy that particle flow will be in...


Actually, I can't use the particle system (MAX 6 or otherwise) directly in our game engine. This is the reason why I was converting my system from Soft/3D to MAX (since the algorithm can be given directly to the programmers). Needless to say, doing so requires a coordinate system that doesn't give you circular dependencies. I will post a link to some videos that demonstrate what I worked on in soft/3d and my difficulties in Max.

DaWhirlpool

^Lele^
08-07-2003, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by Ze PilOt
Don't know about scripting, but try this (wait, max loading Zzzz²²²)


Ok, I take a sphere and select some polys :

http://www.thepilot.easynet.be/max/max1.jpg

Then I move the poly in LOCAL mode in the Z axis

http://www.thepilot.easynet.be/max/max2.jpg


Ok, no problems.



Here, if u exit sub object mode and reenter it, your next translation will behave as normal. Note that your sub object selection is preserved, so is just a case of tapping twice a key, or simply double clicking on the poly icon.
Is a bug, let's hope they fix it soon. Lucky me there is a workaround.

notice it is really a stupid refresh bug, that happens trough mouse interaction.
U can check yourself if uselct a polyobject, select one or more polys, and simply run this, maybe line by line with the numeric keypad "enter"...


in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [10,0,0]
in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [0,10,0]
in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [0,0,10]
in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [-10,0,0]
in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [0,-10,0]
in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [0,0,-10]


As u can see the math is rock solid: three operations in a row, on three different axes, reversed and not a glitch. Just a dumb refresh thing.

There isn't a workaround, and you were completely right, and me completely talking out of my *** (this is easily fillable), for the biped rotations.
I gave it a quick go, and yes, of course parenting does not help, at best u bounce back to the limb coordinates.
Wich are missing, for the biped class, the LOCAL coordsys.
In fact, in the maxscript reference, under the chapter
"Biped Transform Methods" the construct

biped.getTransform <biped_node> (#pos | #rotation | #scale) [limb:<biped_node>]
is the one responsible of reading the transforms, "set" instead of "get" sets them, as it states clearly below:

"Gets the specified node’s transform in world coordinates"

This page is pretty much ALL of the documentation for CS4's biped rotations.
Nowhere else mentions rotations, less so Local ones.

So it is either a choice -biped is actually a plugin, still developed outside discreet, they might wish to drop it in favour of a bigger, better, ik sistem, maybe, and maybe they limit it purposefully - or simply a limitation out of sloppy code/bad design.

Either way is documented.

Unfortunately, i haven't rigged anything, nor scripted crowd stuff.

Mostly, i'm afraid so, it had to do with mass processing batches of images into image planes -read macro + interface, no math whatsoever- or at most dumping vertices positions into a binary file to be read into LW, so i could try and do cloth simulations and physics sims on max, when the original model was done in LW, and in LW had to return. Unfortunately, i never had a chance to see if it really worked. I presumed at the time it did, but the reader in LW was unfinished, and not done by me. If it continues i'd be glad to post any glitch i might find, even tought at the level i use it, i'll probably never encounter one.

One thing, i don't understand, simply out of ignorance, i presume.
Why would you use a Biped object to do scripted animation? Wouldn't it be easier to use standard bones (i think at Daniel Lara's rigs, for example : as non-animator they impressed me for flexibility. Then again, just apparent, maybe.) to then have complete access to local coordinates trough the simple

$.rotation = (eulerangles x y z) ?w
and set it swapping coordinate space at will trough

in coordsys local rotate $ (eulerangles x y z) to increment

or

in coordsys local $ rotation = (eulerangles x y z)

to set it as absolute value?

No quaternon, no conversion, no approximations, and if it all goes bonkers u can manually reassign the controller for the channel you want to modify, and use its properties too in the script.

I though CS was good for games for the fact the the Quaternion rotation were a better format for game coders, but then again animation is either prebaked (in wich case u can forget rotation readings, vertices positions will do) or keyframed and has ik driving it... -guessing-

But even to do facial expressions u have to add bones to the biped, so i always considered it a quick and rought tool for quick previz/game stuff. If u need more control, as far as i see it, u should abandon the peculiar Biped Class and switch to the maybe -i guess- more reliable bones/object systems.

Of course u'd have to respect the rules of a different platform than xsi. Anyone who tried non uniform scaling ANYTHING in max discovered the thing. Good will and some 30 seconds, and u read on the manual how it should be done for it to behave as expected.

I'm curious to see anything u'd post, mate!
More curious still to dig a bit in max 6.


Lele

^Lele^
08-07-2003, 04:16 AM
As for XSI, come on. It's a good TWO years Younger than Max's first release.
As such, they observed, and implemented.

First max then maya, then XSI.

While the first did mistakes, XSI had two valuable years to evaluate, and take cover.
While the first two were expanding their userbase, and impairing future renewal for compatibility's sake, Softimage was banking still on SOFT|3D.
By the time they FINALLY released it, of course it was a step ahead in a few things...

I want to hope XSI is better, more scriptable, more flexible, more EVERYTHING than max.
Hells, u script in Js, or VBScript. Can't almost tell the difference from html...
It has to be fun, doing it for a living...

But remember that 'til version 3(!) you couldn't hide polygons belonging to the same mesh you were editing ( read: to hide half a face u had to detach the polys to a new object and hide the object...), so not even it's majesty is untouchable...
The day they finally made it possible, they shipped an INTRO video with the feature, and they even made the hide property animatable (as the visibility track in max, just applyable on polys).
Class, indeed :buttrock:

And the xsi 3.01 i tried at work, refused to load a scene three times in a row with all the textures in place. The rendertree lost trace of imageclips, MR didn't want to chande MP displacement parameters, there was a crash every twenty minutes, constraints reloaded screwed up, so that imageplane trees aligned to the camera, parented to a null, on reload were firing in all directions.

I admit i was tampering badly with it, in the worst possible way, as an ignorant. But if it's so stable, it shouldn't fear me...
As i'm sure most of the bugs have been fixed with the release after 3.01, or the one that is yet to come, wichever it is.

I had good fun tampering with it, guess for me is gonna be enough...

sorry to move out of thread, it was just to try and prove the point that all the tools on the market have flaws, and workrounds. Partying for one or the other is imho pointless. I prefer generally to look for and remember the positive aspects of each...
And if there's a bug, there's also a chance i might get paid to work around it, so on top of the fun, there's the added nicety of the money...

Lele

youknowjack
08-11-2003, 11:06 PM
I asked one of the beat tester today and
seems to me that setting keys no longer
collapse the geometry!

But the local poly moving problem
still exists...

maybe someone should sumbit the bug.

Jack

zen
08-12-2003, 04:13 AM
as stated before, its rather useless to submit such a bug, as it is max's coordinate system (the way the program calculates 3d space) which is screwed up. And the coordinate system is pretty much the backbone of a 3d program. I highly doubt discreet can fix it, and for that reason i doubt they would even admit to its existence.
I mean, at its core, 3dmax probably still has legacy autocad 2d engine code (which btw is the reason for the Z up), patched and built uppon over and over to meet the demands of advancing technology.

^Lele^
08-12-2003, 09:00 AM
Originally posted by zen
as stated before, its rather useless to submit such a bug, as it is max's coordinate system (the way the program calculates 3d space) which is screwed up. And the coordinate system is pretty much the backbone of a 3d program. I highly doubt discreet can fix it, and for that reason i doubt they would even admit to its existence.
I mean, at its core, 3dmax probably still has legacy autocad 2d engine code (which btw is the reason for the Z up), patched and built uppon over and over to meet the demands of advancing technology.

Discreet does not admit it, nor they'll fix it, the coordinate system is 2d, Cstudio is not good enough (indeed, do NOT make Cakes with it! They do NOT bake properly), the Z-up is because of Acad's Csys reimported and somehow patched.

A bit of Substantiation might be in order, don't you think?
So far, you've just thrown a rock, and then hid a hand.
If u care to check the tiny script above (a few posts ago), u can see for yourself that the CS is quite solid. Or isn't it?

Would YOU care to substantiate YOUR claims, rather than having somebody else doing it?

It is a bug,it is there,it has a workaround.
People do create game models with it, and CG for TV (this is what i have PERSONALLY witnessed).

You are still knocking a VERY good software on the base of your superior knowledge of it.
Like saying that LW sucks, because it hasn't got the Edge primitive, no history and very few undos.
So must be a Sh*t modeller.
Ask a few of those who make a living out of it, and create ART with it.
These are tools, and if you WANT to use them, you can.
If you're good, it shines trough.
If you are not, you winge, and blame the tool.
This much i learnt on my skin :D

In real production there are also a few other things to take in account, other than bugs and/or features.
Price is a factor, and a big one, when it comes to a choice.
Max renders on any amount of workstations at no added price.
Quite a help on a tight budget and a tight deadline.
Userbase is another, for freelance recruitment.
At least here in London there is quite an abundance of Maxers.
(quite an abundance of fools, listening to someone...)

Not everybody needs and escavator to plant their flowers, you know?
Cg is CHEATING, and will always be. Cheat the software too, if u can, mate.

Lele.

DaWhirlpool
08-12-2003, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by ^Lele^
If u care to check the tiny script above (a few posts ago), u can see for yourself that the CS is quite solid. Or isn't it?


Speaking of substantiating, I took a look at your script. You're actually proving there IS something wrong in the coordinate system:

in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [10,0,0]
in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [0,10,0]
in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [0,0,10]

...should NOT look like this:

http://pages.infinit.net/monkey3d/share/local_bug.gif

that's a global translation although you specified local! Which by the way is the reason why the second part to your script brings it back to the original shape.

in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [-10,0,0]
in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [0,-10,0]
in coordsys local move $.selectedFaces [0,0,-10]

Cg is CHEATING, and will always be. Cheat the software too, if u can, mate.

Yes, CG is an illusion/cheat and yes other programs have their own problems (I agree with you there) but 3D is also based on mathematics. If you have this "error" in its foundation you'll be doomed to be consistently working around problems that other software packages won't have you do.
To continue your metaphore of scalpels: Sure the artist plays the biggest part of the equation, but it you give me a spoon instead of a good scalpel to make a sculpture, it will take me much longer to make it and it will be much more difficult.

Anyhow, all I'm saying is that Discreet better re-work its coordinates for its next generation.

DaWhirlpool

zen
08-12-2003, 08:14 PM
If u care to check the tiny script above (a few posts ago), u can see for yourself that the CS is quite solid. Or isn't it?

Well, no. its not actually. All your script really proves is that 0+1-1=0. First off the polys move globaly contrary to you telling it to move with the local coor sys. All you really show is that if you apply flawed math and then substract the same flawed math you return to your original position. I dont care that max can compute 0+1-1=0, thats not the problem. Its the resulting spacial transformation which is screwed up, as shown above. So no, the Csys is not quite solid. This is what your script should look like applied in a solid Csys:

http://pages.infinit.net/monkey3d/share/xsilocalcsys.gif

It is a bug,it is there,it has a workaround.
People do create game models with it, and CG for TV (this is what i have PERSONALLY witnessed).

So what? There are bugs in XSI too. I dont dismiss them and blindly declare xsi the perfect 3d platform. Such as the refraction bug. Yes, theres a work around. But i still wont be satisfied until they fix it. And its not up to me to defend why they havnt fixed it yet. not until they pay me too! hehe

Like saying that LW sucks, because it hasn't got the Edge primitive, no history and very few undos.
So must be a Sh*t modeller.
Ask a few of those who make a living out of it, and create ART with it.
These are tools, and if you WANT to use them, you can.
If you're good, it shines trough.
If you are not, you winge, and blame the tool.
This much i learnt on my skin :D

Oh so now im not an artist because im too "aware" of the math in 3d, right? Ive gotten that line before, and its pretty cheap and meaningless. People who thinks artists must be blissfully ignorant of technical and mathmatical aspects of work are shallow stereotypes. And your simplifying my words into a black and white situation shows poor problem comprehension too: No, its not like saying LW sucks because theres no edge primitive. You're trying to ridiculize my arguments by comparing apples to oranges, or in this case a missing tool vs the core of the program.
As for the tool vs the artist lines you keep spewing: You seem to love metaphores, so heres one i like:

A hammer, a rock, and your forehead. You can use all of these to hammer a nail into a board, but one of them just works better.

You are taking this thread WAY too personnaly. We put forward a flaw in max and even proved it after you had valoriously boasted it as the most advanced system ( [...]The core in itself was and remains pretty revolutionary, and in terms of ease of use, and readily available power, is in my opinion still unbeatable. [...] ), and you act as though we have just cut off your balls!
We've put forth valid, proven and verifiable info. What arguments have you put up front besides subjectively boasting max and attacking our skills and talents???

Cheat the software too, if u can, mate.:rolleyes:

Woohoo! thems be fightin' words!! hahaha! You see, when people start attacking my skills and talents is when i know such people are rapidly running out of valid arguments!

So again with my initial conclusion, 3dmax's coordinate system is screwed up. Discreet knows this, and they cant fix it, because its legacy code deep inside the program. v6 is low on substance because discreet is in RnD for a complete rewrite, and they need RnD $$$. In all likelyhood, there will not be a max v7, and this is GOOD news, so dont bust a heart attack!!
Im actually excited to see what disceet can do from scratch, instead of trying to fix messy old code from another company.

youknowjack
08-12-2003, 08:30 PM
so , when 3dsmax changes its name, all of the messy codes will be gone? I sure hope they do it soon!

Oh by the way, patch is actually good in release 6.

What are they gonna call it then?

MAX 1.0 ? (no 3ds in the front)

JACK

spacefrog
08-12-2003, 09:11 PM
oh guys !

did all of you run out of creative energy ?

or to say it more nicely:
wouldn't it be better to focus your creative (?) energy on
making good artwork, and not to fall into self-pity
"I know the truth" battles ?

Or post a link to some Artwork you made, and exactly
describe why it is not as good as you could do,
because you are using Max.
Nobody of you fighting this things to death has a webside
listed in the profile.
So make a webpage and show me some stuff !!

:)

^Lele^
08-12-2003, 10:01 PM
You two are right, and i was wrong...
And i did take it personally :P
As such i paid with a really bad figure (tiny script above...)
I could have noticed it myself, and spare u lot the effort :P


But no, discreet does not pay me. *shame, really :(*

That is a real pain, as i'm realising now...
Yes, it simply ignores (as Cstudio for rotation using the same Csys specification) the local parameter.

I think i'll try and dig deeper once i'm free from work (as a freelancer it works very much ON/OFF, and when on, i have really no time or energy.), and possibly check out more of this -not so hidden, not so small- flaws.

I hate when people put strange ideas in my head, and i can't get rid of them :P

DOH!

It does remain the fact that i wouldn't bin the whole software as flawed.
Some of the newest Rendering techinques are still developed on that platform, rather than any other (Vray, Brazil, Fr). And the plethora of plugins on the market does still make the whole thing extremely usable. Again, depending from the task u need to perform. I mostly render, so i've never been interested in animation, even tough it does happen around me in the studio i work for. Fact is they use messiah and LW...

Life ain't perfect...

^Lele^
08-13-2003, 02:18 AM
I was wondering how could it happen that i NEVER came across the bug itself before...

I did do some modelling in max, most of it poly modelling, and my guess would be that any transformation that required local coordinates were Z translations (the one type that actually works), possibly because of the alignment to any of the construction planes, or custom grids, of the other two axes (mostly working in Global, or Grid mode) and still having two parallel axes (is it the infamous 2D plane of autocad heritage by chance, Zen?) to model with even in local mode.

Strikes me the fact that in Italy ('til max 3) i mostly had dealings with architects, so more on the "cubist" modelling, no animation at all, and more focus on material creation and lighting.
After i came to london i didn't do any complex or organic modelling at all in max, coincentrating on trying and learing the tricks of Lightwave modeller first, and then going back to max for some rendering, more architectural modelling and scripting.

Of course not doing animation at all, especially in Sub-object mode (nor apparently having EVER translated a subset of faces non parallel to one of the world axes, as it seemed to work on individual ones, in local X or Y) i never realised it was there...

It baffles me the fact that it seems to work in Object mode, both with single and multiple objects selected.

Note i'm not being sarchastic, but more on the worried side...
Are there any other examples of the flaw?
I am honestly curious to know a bit more on it, if nothing else just to know what NOT to do...

Lele

spacefrog
08-13-2003, 07:53 AM
Guys !

The local transform of the multiselected polys does not behave as you expect, cause the local axes are NOT aligned all the same way. So go to your preferences - dialog, Gizmos and turn on "Allow multiple gizmos", now you get a transform gizmo for every selected Poly and will see that Max moves all polies along the specified axes, they are only not aligned all the same way.

Better discuss the this fact, than to speculate about
"The Inner CS of Max is flawed...."

^Lele^
08-13-2003, 10:18 AM
I see what you mean, spacefrog...

Point is, still a multiple-poly selection is not movable as shown in the example from xsi...

I can see the mutiple gizmos, and i can see they are all rotated around the Z axis...
Why would it rotate them that way? I can't see any topology dependance on the way they are rotated...
Some of the polys actually have X and Y aligned to the two sides, some others have them slightly off set...

http://www.emanuelelecchi.f2s.com/M_Gizmos.jpg

This though answers why it does work (still with the local coordinates wlightly offset) for one poly at a time, and for the object mode (a gizmo per object there, oriented with the pivot).

On the other hand, it seems to be perfectly allright with vertices, but has the same offset orientation at edges level...

googlo
08-13-2003, 10:41 AM
spacefrog,

I don't think the issue is that technically the translations are working according to their local axis, it's that they are expected to be uniform and symmetrical

^Lele^
08-13-2003, 11:50 AM
As a workaround, if u select the polygons u want to move in Local CS, then RMclick and convert the selection to vertices, it works...

They're not gonna be faces you'll be moving around, but the resulting geometry should be allright, exactly as if u moved the faces themselves...

Am i erring again, ot does this actually make sense?

spacefrog
08-13-2003, 12:19 PM
can any of you maya guys give me a hint -
how to even have the option in maya to move several faces at once - each of them on it's local axis ?

after a search in the maya help i think it's impossible ?

----------------------------------

or even don't think about moving multiple polys along there respective normal axes in lightwave modeler
( there is an external plugin available somewhere)

-----------------------------------

so it look's like only XSI has got this option -
and there it works, but is there an option to have a handle/axes display for every poly selected ? it would be great to have more feedback, at least if you do not have to much polies selected

-----------------------------------

Walter
08-13-2003, 02:15 PM
...

spacefrog
08-13-2003, 03:40 PM
Walter:
If you would be a official Beta Tester you would not be allowed to post such info.
You would be bound to Discreets strict NDA.
So how did you get the Beta Version ?
Surely not in a legal way....

EDIT:
I got info from walter that he has legal access to a beta-site,
so nevermind..... ;-)

Walter
08-13-2003, 09:31 PM
Sorry

Walter
08-13-2003, 09:32 PM
I use Max 6 only in legal mode...

googlo
08-13-2003, 11:13 PM
spacefrog,

I don't know if that's true because Max 6 has already been announced as well as it's new features. Other poeple who say they have beta tested Max 6 have talked about it as well (not in huge detail, but saying pretty much the same things that have already been announced and making comments about it). I think Max 6 is supposed to be available for buying pretty quick now isn't it?

Signal2Noise
08-14-2003, 12:09 AM
Originally posted by Walter
I use Max 6 only in legal mode...

:rolleyes:

antweiler
08-14-2003, 10:40 PM
@ spacefrog
can any of you maya guys give me a hint -
how to even have the option in maya to move several faces at once - each of them on it's local axis ?

after a search in the maya help i think it's impossible ?

im not sure, not in front of maya... use edit polygons-> move component, that should do it. (this function is for sure stupidly hidden)

antweiler

Signal2Noise
08-14-2003, 11:18 PM
Maya?

How does a Maya question get thrown into a 3ds max thread let alone into a CG News discussion?

Antweiler, you'd be better off going to the Maya forum to get help.:thumbsup:

robioto
08-15-2003, 12:49 AM
it's a response to the question spacefrog posted above... not a new question

youknowjack
08-15-2003, 12:54 AM
yo Signal to Noise,
someone pointed out that max 5
(including the new max 6) still has this bug
where faces would not move correctly (using local)

So, people like me, antweiler (and this one other dude) went to other program to see if we can even move faces according to their normal local.

XSI can do it flawlessly, maya's probably for vertex only(what I saw) and max has some issues with it involving its core math.

Give it a try:

create a sphere, convert it to poly
select multiple faces, alt+right click to select local.
And faces would not move in the same xyz.

Maybe discreet can fix this some day.
(they fixed that set key mode bug though :hmm: )

JACK

holosynthetic
08-15-2003, 04:09 AM
last time i selected multiple faces on an editable poly and used the move TOOL they all moved in the same direction no matter which way i moved the faces :)

(but i of coarse thats using the simple yet effective move tool, not complicated scripts, heh)

youknowjack
08-15-2003, 06:20 AM
Somehow discreet read my mind, haha.
I was using the blob modifier earlier with reactor to
do water. But it didn't have an add button so it's
a pain in the ass to add all the cube in.
Now I heard from a friend that blob has "add"!

Nice, happy fluid time.

Oh and, of course "view " mode works.

Otherwise, 3dsmax would be screwed up!
(the only thing that doesn't work is local)

From my observation , it is 3dsmax's way of creating object's faces that causes the problem.
If you select a weird face(one that has a weird local axis), you would then see that it's x axis is always pointing up or down in the other views(top, front, left)

!!! Strange, huh?

Select a face and you will know what I mean.
I will try to get a pic up later.

So what I am suggesting is that :
Build your own face before moving them by local. Then it should work.

*that doesn't work either. I guess its local is messed up

JACK:thumbsdow

spacefrog
08-15-2003, 10:39 AM
Following is an assumption:

* Polys/Faces do NOT have a local coordinate-system- they only have the normal-vector stored in their datastructure- that's the reason why the local Z-axis is always correct, cause it's the normal vector.(you can't edit a poly's local CS, cause it'S not stored anywhere,vertices store their normal vector EXPLICITELY, the polygons normalvector is - i guess - interpolated from the vertices Normalvectors( only the vertices forming the polygon).
Max 6 will have a Edit Normal tool that allows manipulation of the vertices normal vector....

* if you select multiple faces, every selected face gets a TEMPORARY cs,Z-axis aligned to normal, the alignement
of the other two axis is generated on the fly,somehow derived from the facealignment RELATIVE to the objects local cs.
Or interpolated from the Normal-vectors from the vertices that are part of the actual polygon

they are not ALIGNED to the objects local cs or the world cs (you see this if multiple gizmos is on)- that's the reason why they do not move all in the same direction, cause their axis'alignment is different, and they move locally, so locally the movement IS CONSISTENT!!!

Maya:
you cannot move along components local axis,
cause there is only the OBJECTS local axes,
so Maya CANNOT do it, Max CAN do it,
not totally the way you guys want it too, but it can

In Maya there is a "Move Normal" tool with vertices, that makes
the same "ERRORS", like max makes when you move multiple
polygons in local mode

In my opinion this behavior makes sense, cause if you wan't all
the vertices or polygons to move in the same direction don't use
local mode

;-)

Saku
08-15-2003, 11:15 AM
Originally posted by spacefrog
Following is an assumption:

* Polys/Faces do NOT have a local coordinate-system- they only have the normal-vector stored in their datastructure- that's the reason why the local Z-axis is always correct, cause it's the normal vector.(you can't edit a poly's local CS, cause it'S not stored anywhere)

* if you select multiple faces, every selected face gets a TEMPORARY cs,Z-axis aligned to normal, the alignement
of the other two axis is generated on the fly,somehow derived from the facealignment RELATIVE to the objects local cs.
Or interpolated from the Normal-vectors from the vertices that are part of the actual polygon

they are not ALIGNED to the objects local cs or the world cs (you see this if multiple gizmos is on)- that's the reason why they do not move all in the same direction, cause their axis'alignment is different, and they move locally, so locally the movement IS CONSISTENT!!!

This is right.


Lele
On the other hand, it seems to be perfectly allright with vertices

This is not true.
You might think that Local Axis for vertices is aligned as you made test with simple primitive like Sphere. But if you have a bit more complex model you see that one Axis is pointing outwards from surface, but two other are pointing to random directions. As Spacefrog explained, one Local axis is possible to take from normal of polygon (for vertices: average of surrounding polygons), but other two is impossible for software to specify as polygons does not contain enough information.

I don't think that any software can handle local subobject coordinate system any better. Maybe it would be possible to store Local Coordinate System for each polygon, but then you would have to rotate these Coordinate Systems to fit for your purposes before using local translations. (other than inwards or outwards of surface normal)

wgreenlee1
08-15-2003, 02:22 PM
New features in 3ds max 6 will include: advanced schematic view for easier viewing and better management of complex scenes; included mental ray® rendering software; vertex colour painting; design visualisation tools and interchange support with Autodesk and other computer-aided design (CAD) and CAD-related solutions; integrated reactor® 2 complete physics-with stuntman and vehicle dynamics; distributed network texture baking, and features that provide greater accessibility to the software for power users. Also included in the release will be a particle flow system for creating realistic fountains, fog, snow, splashes, contrails, explosions and other environmental effects.


Ya sold me....
Thats all the stuff I want....


Oh wait a minute....I have all that in Maya....:rolleyes:

googlo
08-15-2003, 03:32 PM
Oh wait a minute, you're in a MAX 6 thread..

youknowjack
08-15-2003, 05:20 PM
Well, then xsi seems to be the only one that does exactly
the thing .( per-poly local store)

So, the reason that max and maya doesn't do it:

It's not because max's core is mesed up right?

IT's not a bug or something. Max just didn't implenmented it.
(for stablity reason?)

I guess it's ok since most people tweak in other sub-object mode.
Oh by the way, there is a work around to move poly (separately)
in local x,y. Use edge as constraint. move it in local x or y then switch to "off" for constraint and move in z.

I do want to hear about other bugs of max though(that really affects the workflow and time-consuming) so I can ask my friend if it's fixed in 6.

JACK

:hmm:

zen
08-15-2003, 09:57 PM
max's core IS messed up. go read the rest of these posts. This has all been discussed. Especially pages 9-10. Max is the only core to have circular dependencies BY DEFAULT.
The local Csys problems in max were simply an example to demonstrate the fault. As you might have guessed, i dont spend my day nudging faces on a default sphere... These faults are simply headaches when doing REAL production on more complicated tasks, such as procedural animations, and max just cant handle it.
The local poly Csys in max can be worked around, i know. i model in it everyday at work. But that wasnt the point. It was just an example to expose the flaw, which creates huge problems when doing tasks that depend on the core Csys much more, such as rigging, scripting and especially animating.
Max is fine for modelling and texturing game models but even soft|3D is a better animation platform.

Ryan-B
08-15-2003, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by zen
max's core IS messed up. go read the rest of these posts. This has all been discussed. Especially pages 9-10. Max is the only core to have circular dependencies BY DEFAULT.
The local Csys problems in max were simply an example to demonstrate the fault. As you might have guessed, i dont spend my day nudging faces on a default sphere... These faults are simply headaches when doing REAL production on more complicated tasks, such as procedural animations, and max just cant handle it.
The local poly Csys in max can be worked around, i know. i model in it everyday at work. But that wasnt the point. It was just an example to expose the flaw, which creates huge problems when doing tasks that depend on the core Csys much more, such as rigging, scripting and especially animating.
Max is fine for modelling and texturing game models but even soft|3D is a better animation platform.

No matter how clearly you try to explain this fault, some people will try to argue that it doesn't exist. I think you are wasting your energy trying to present a logical argument.

spacefrog
08-16-2003, 09:07 AM
Ryan B, Zen:

You both must be the most frustrated guys on earth.
Having to work with software on a daily basis and hate the
software at the same time is surely not a healthy situation.

What's the problem with changing the package ?
why you still stick with max ?

by the way - that's a serious question...

it all sounds like an aged, unhappy marriage - both can't live
with each other, nor can they live without....

;-)

No matter how clearly you try to explain this fault, some people will try to argue that it doesn't exist. I think you are wasting your energy trying to present a logical argument.

that's not correct - at least with me. I'm a tech guy, so i see a problem without the emotional bias,that sometimes shines through the posts, be it hate or love.
When i tested the "NU-scaling and parenting cs" thingy i was really wondering why the hell this happens.
But doing animation/fx for years now I never had a problem with this -issue.
maybe cause i read the manual and work around and do not NU scale in a hierarchy.
You guys just sound like some priests sometimes... ;-)

StefanA
08-16-2003, 11:19 AM
First of all, I'm amazed that this thread is still alive. It's been very amusing to read for us non maxers. I did use MAX myself many years ago, as the demo artist for the distrubitor in Sweden.
I had a lot of fun back then, and unfortantly no one of those who made max a great package has left ( Stefan Didak who has responded here is one of them, but we still talk :) ).

Personally I can't stand max anymore. I did test animate with it earlier this spring just to give it a chance. And I was greatly disapointed that they hadn't come much further than R2.5
Still the F-Curves are useless and you have to apply a operator to get them at all. The hole app feel wobbly and extremely unstable. The OGL support is one of the worst in the business.
And as people has mentioned before, the modeling with normals are kind of wierd (even though I didn't do much of that).

Unless MAX6 turns out to be the best release ever I think Discreet are in for a very very very dark period of their existance.


What's the problem with changing the package ?
why you still stick with max ?


The problem for many is that they need to pay at least $1500-$6000 to switch (depending on what they chose), not even to mention all the conversion problems and old backups. Even though many packages now have "trade-in" there is still a lot of money that needs to be placed. And if you have five 3D artists you need to take that sum times five... = $7500-$30000 so you can see how it might case a problem.

Switching softwares is always a difficult thing, and you also have to take in count the learning period before you are comfortable to put it into production.

I Switched to Softimage|3D back then, and now I'm working with Softimage|XSI. I'm happy with my "choice" (which has been new employers over the years) and I'm a very happy camper that doesn't miss one single thing in max :)

But in the end packages doesn't matter, only the finished animation.

best regards

.stefan andersson

spacefrog
08-16-2003, 01:41 PM
But in the end packages doesn't matter, only the finished animation.

that's the point, and so this is my last post.

i'm tired of this topic
:)

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