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chikega
07-26-2003, 05:06 AM
I came across this link while over at ZBrush Central and this WartHog creature by Weta is simply amazing. It was modeled in Maya and detailed out with ZBrush. As I progressed through the forum, it became apparent that Normal Mapping was used.

http://www.pixolator.com/zbc-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=011729

And this is how one might accomplish something similar in LW.

http://www.brilliant-creations.com/amapidemontut.htm

It's a link to Ken Brilliant's new tutorial using Normal Mapping, Amapi 6, LW, and ZBrush. Very interesting workflow - he seems well versed in many 3d apps. :)

He has listed some free Normal Mapping utilities at the bottom of the tutorial. But for those who want to burn some cash - you can get Microwave from Evasion3d.

Just FYI:)

LFGabel
07-26-2003, 07:31 AM
So how well does Normal Mapping stand up to deforming a character? I would think it could result in some pretty strange results.

Thanks

Mattoo
07-26-2003, 01:37 PM
Actually it's "normal displacement mapping" your seeing here, not "normal mapping". Although they do say that exporting normal maps is a feature in the new version of Z-brush.

I'm really looking forward to it.

Naz
07-27-2003, 01:37 AM
I would not just look forward to it but start spending some time learning the current version of zbrush so you can straight have an easy go at the new features.

zbrush has been around for some time now, but it really seems to finally kick off. it was about time : )

roguenroll
07-27-2003, 03:01 AM
that is pretty interesting.

lwbob
07-27-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by lfgabel
So how well does Normal Mapping stand up to deforming a character? I would think it could result in some pretty strange results.


I have heard from a few people that normal maps are working with deformed objects. This sounds like a programming error though.

The early reports sound like the normals are working in world coordinates instead of local.

Meaty
07-28-2003, 06:46 PM
Yeah, the tutuorial in that second link is good... the only real problem is that the normal map is created with world space instead of tangent space. You are right, world space normal maps are pretty weird if you have a deforming character. You can tell it is a world space normal map because of the wide spectrum of colors in the map... tangent space normal maps usually are only pink and blue pastel colors. That is becaue there is a much smaller range of vectors a normal map in tangent space need be able to cover.


http://www.cfxweb.net/~delphigl/images/dotnorm.gif that is what a tangent space normal looks like

chikega
03-14-2004, 06:54 PM
Sorry for dredging up this old thread - but with ZBrush2 coming out at the end of the month, I thought this may be appropiate. Does anyone know if LW's displacement mapping is working properly? I remember vaguely on a few threads that it wasn't

Originally posted by Kretin:
"If you're after Normal Displacement mapping, as shown by Weta's work, then LW has it built in although there is a bug in LW's Normal Displacement making it unusable for UV mapped displacement on subdivded objects."

Also, is there any word whether LW 8 will support Zbrush displacement mapping. Sure would be cool, if it did. :)

roguenroll
03-14-2004, 07:01 PM
not sure hope it works exactly as far as LW compatabilty, by simplylightwave has a normal tute, with a plugin I think. and if thats it, then it seems to work fine.

Im excited about the new zbrush, man to get that kind of detail,
then have it show up mapped on a lowpoly obj. killer

:)

http://www.simplylightwave.com/movie_pages/tutorial.mhtml?tut_id=517

chikega
03-14-2004, 07:07 PM
Thanks roguenroll, I have seen a few tutorials on normal mapping. But, I was wondering mainly about normal *displacement* mapping and LW 8. It's a bit different than plain normal mapping.

And yes, ZBrush 2 looks like it's going to be stellar - can't wait:bounce:

roguenroll
03-14-2004, 07:46 PM
yep I got ya, 'sub pixel displacement'

so far I havent seen any great news on this, they might surprise in 8, although ???

Mattoo
03-14-2004, 10:36 PM
Sub-pixel displacement isn't necessary to use the displacement maps from ZBrush - it just helps to get that super high res effect without needing crap loads of RAM and processing power.

There's 3 problems holding LW back from being able to use the UV displacement maps from ZBrush. One is described above, the other is that LWs Normal Displacement feature doesn't handle UV seams. It leaves nasty big lines all along the UV edges. This is not quite as bad as it seems as you can work around it. Firstly, don't use Atlas mapping - do the UV by hand and carefully decide where the seams will be, then when painting the displacement make sure not to paint those areas.
The last problem with LWs Normal Displacement is one I can't account for - it's just plain annoying, you get lots of little vertices that choose of their own free will not to displace.... god only knows why. :rolleyes:

Having said all that I've been playing with the Bump Displacement feature which acts similarly to Normal Displacement but appears to handle the seams much better and doesn't suffer the random vertex dots.
Problem is you can't then apply another "proper" bump map, so you can't get the really fine surface detail a bump map would normally provide.

Regardless, I'm still looking forward to ZBrush 2. Hopefully Newtek can finally get around to fixing Normal Displacement soon.

chikega
03-15-2004, 02:55 AM
Thanks, Mattoo, that reaffirms what I've heard before. I hope NT will work the kinks out as well. :)

Ramon
03-15-2004, 03:39 AM
Mattoo and others,... I very much like what I see in Zbrushes modeling/displacement capabilities (as I see most all of us do).
I guess needless to say that the Zbrush - Maya pipeline works like an absolute charm. Does anyone know if that is an accurate assumption? - No problems with displacement mapping and no problems with importing a very dense- HR mesh from Zbrush and animating it through a low res proxy? If only LW could do this without the pipeline issues that is "apparently" currently the case.
Not much good in an extremely detailed model if you can't feasibly function with it for animation.

Nemoid
03-15-2004, 09:01 AM
I'm gonna play with the current version of z brush...
today!! that way i can wait better for 2 version.

a friend showed me basically how it works and i have to see that modelling and detailing into it seems powerfull, just like you are modelling with clay.
he showed also to me that z brush can export meshes to lw quite good, especially if you set the shape subdivision to 1. think the best way to go is to detail previous modeled chars in lw , import and detail them. i also heard some people use it together with microwave plugin wich seems a good solution for normal mapping in lw.

there are also ways to model with it directly, though, with z spheres. but i dunno about the density of the final mesh u get.
in 2 version there are also methods to control better the poly flow, so maybe it will be a great direct modelling solution in 2 or future releases too.:buttrock:

Mattoo
03-15-2004, 09:05 AM
Mental Ray apparently has the best time in dealing with what ZBrush spits out. I haven't tried it yet but I have used Mayas displacement mapping - it's similar to LWs altough without the unexplained crap going on.

Maya should indeed handle the low-res proxy approach ok, but I'd much rather go the Sub-D displacement method, much cleaner.

I'll have to see how it goes, if it becomes a real bear to get LW working with ZBrush I'll have to start using Maya for this.

Julez4001
03-15-2004, 11:47 AM
I think what would be kool is that Zbrush save it out in its format in a sorta saved state but built on its technology and then lw has a plugin that adds/control the zbrush "format". So we could see it in Layout without having a frozen dense mesh to work off.

Nemoid
03-15-2004, 01:23 PM
So true. however i was testing z brush tools and UI till now and after some time grasping with the UI it seems amazing even just working shapes out from a simple sphere to model. seems quite natural.
back on reading the manual now. seems like there are many things i have to understand of the toolset so that i will be able to work also on imported meshes properly.

maybe can be good only for doing normal maps, with animated stuff, but the tools are really interesting.

from the little i know, the micro pixel displacement is very good in renderman,and vray but i dunno about issues with lightwave. if Mental ray does this well, it can be an interesting tool coupled with Maya.

mercuryrex
03-15-2004, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Julez4001
I think what would be kool is that Zbrush save it out in its format in a sorta saved state but built on its technology and then lw has a plugin that adds/control the zbrush "format". So we could see it in Layout without having a frozen dense mesh to work off.

I was reading some people before thinking that Zbrush only produces meshes with a high density count.

It's a misconception that simply isn't true.

You could knock out something low res, then export the mesh for further work in LW.

I was reading about ZBrush 2 in some link on these forums,...and it appears that you can now create something in detailed high res, and switch resolution to a lower res setting.

So you can choose what resolution you want it to be even AFTER you've done some high res detail modelling.

The ZSphere modelling is so quick to use too.
You can just knock up basic figures in a few minutes. (Then perhaps export to Lightwave for further refinement)

Also in ZS2,...there is supposed to be something that helps you create good polygon flow, or edgeloop control.

It can't possibly replace Lightwave as my program of choice,..but it certainly looks like it could be a good companion. Because what it does do, it is very good at.
It's very innovative,..and I hope that in the near future, LW picks up on some of it's finer points.

Nemoid
03-15-2004, 07:32 PM
i just saw you can set also the resolution of your 3d tools so that for example you can work with a low res sphere and so on. i'm gonna try z spheres, tomorrow.
the upcoming new feaures seem really interesting especially if you can obtain a good polyflow and lower res meshes good for animation or even ready to be subpatched. ! this is surely a technology wich could be coupled with traditional tools of an app like lw to get a great power on modelling. seems like z brush can handle huge amount of polygons without probs. very interesting!!!

jinchoung
03-16-2004, 07:57 AM
actually,

i don't AT ALL understand what the hell zbrush2 maps the displacement/normal map onto!!!

THE WHOLE PROCESS OF GENERATING NORMAL/DISPLACEMENT ALA LOTR IS TAKING THE COMPARISON BETWEEN A HIRES MESH AND A LOW POLY CAGE (usually nurbs or sds) AND ENCODING THAT DIFFERENCE ONTO A BITMAP.

that said, is it just ENCODING the difference between the superhi mesh to the base poly cage?

in that case, it's only useful if you plan on displacing the base poly cage (not likely to be too pretty).

BUT

if you're generating the bitmap on a uv mapped SDS cage, how the hell is that transferable to any other app since EVERY OTHER APP does the uv mapping of SDS SURFACES DIFFERENTLY! not to mention that the subdivision SCHEME ITSELF has to emulate the target render app....

SDS UV MAPPING tends to be a distorted mess on very low resolution meshes. in maya, you can use object history to generate the uvmap at a pretty dense level (that's very close to the limit surface) to avoid distortion - but maya allows you to step back down to base resolution for things like weight mapping... but how would you be able to export a low poly cage with a uv map snapped at a higher step from within zbrush?!

in lw, it's a TOTAL POOCH SCREW for MULTIPLE REASONS:

- you either have to make a base mesh that's maybe much denser than you need (for animation/weightmapping purposes) for the sake of eliminating distortion.

- use jdaniel's workaround that COUNTERDISTORTS the texture map (in this case, this would probably be the way that will actually work).

- use my workaround that allows you texture a hires nondistorting mesh while animating a low res cage (by means of METAMATION of all things - basically emulates maya's object history by using two separate objects) but then, using metamation object breaks displacement mapping when you set the subdivision order to where it needs to be.

- displacement maps still don't seem to work very reliably in any case.

- as has been said, our renderer isn't exactly setup to take best advantage of displacement mapping... it's almost better to just bite the bullet and animate the super high res mesh!
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

this method of ENCODING HIGH FREQUENCY DETAIL onto a regular, low density mesh, is a VERY IMPORTANT PRINCIPLE FOR HIGH END CHARACTER WORK.... but lw is not at all setup to handle this yet.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

free tool - makes it tough to justify paying lotsa dough:

http://www.soclab.bth.se/practices/orb.html

this rocks. basically enables you to create all the normal maps/displacement maps that your heart desires. even has a front end for maya that will enable you to select your comparison meshes from within maya. not sure if lscript is capable of the same kind of feedbacking but it may be possible for some lw coder to do similar.

but supports .lwos perfectly so is fine if you just use the external app to generate your stuff.

too bad lw's not really in a place where this is useful.

don't hold your breath for 8. really. but hope (and write them like mad) for the sake of the future.

jin

jinchoung
03-16-2004, 08:57 AM
BTW,

as for displacements causing issues on uv seams:

have you tried 're-exposing' the displacement map so that the 'base' color is absolute grey?

i've heard of displacements causing uv issues on other apps if the base color isn't calibrated to gray (that is - FLAT... no displacement up or down).

jin

jinchoung
03-16-2004, 09:04 AM
d'oh!

nevermind about my first question/complaint about getting all the displacement stuff from within zbrush.

ANSWER:

you don't do it in zbrush! at least, you don't if you want to map your displacement onto a higher order surface like nurbs or sds....

you simply generate your super dense mesh in zbrush and then just bring that into your target app, bring in your uv mapped SDS mesh in that app, then use a THIRD PARTY APP (usually quite completely free) to generate the displacement/normal map inside of the target app....

good stuff.

jin

(actually, if you bring into zbrush whatever mesh you used to derive the uv maps, you could do it inside of zbrush too.... at least for lw and maya - don't know how max, xsi gets around the sds uvmap issue)

Mattoo
03-16-2004, 10:01 AM
Yikes! Another Jin attack :p

I think there's a few issues you bring up that are interesting although I think it's not as complicated as you think it is.

For your second post, the displacement mapping in LW is only additive, so that grey on an image will actually displace outwards - black is the base colour and indeed there is no seams on these areas.

For your workflow problems, I think this is how it works:

- You UV your low res cage in LW/Maya/whatever.
- Freeze the Sub-D version.
- Import into ZBrush
- Paint your displacement and export the disp map.
- Apply the disp map to the low res mesh in LW/Maya/whatever. Note: make sure you tesselate before the displacement kicks in.

So effectively it'll be displacing the same as was given to ZBrush.

Granted, I'm sure apps will displace quite differently, but I'll have to wait and see how different.


All that said and done, that's fine if your Normal Displacement works. I found out last night through further investigation LW appears to Displace based on the orginal low res normals - which creates cracks across poly borders that aren't even UV seams but have very differing normal directions.

To prove this I froze the mesh in Modeler and and tried displacing that and it was fine - no cracks, not even very present on the UV seams.

I'll have to carry on playing with it tonight......

jinchoung
03-16-2004, 10:29 AM
hiya mattoo,

yah, there are indeed ways to get around all the concerns i had.

but as for generating a low poly cage - uv map - freeze and export: that's exactly the technique that causes distortion if your low poly cage is 'too low'.

BUT

as you say, it WILL work with zbrush... since it is projecting the final texture onto the 'distorted uvs', the image map will just be created 'counter-distorted'.

not a problem (although i have a problem with it strictly on principle) if you are using zbrush and painting your textures onto the mesh with something like deep paint 3d or zbrush...

but it can be a pain in the ass if you have to do your paintings in photoshop at some point.... there's no way you have 'hand counterdistort'....

or you can sidestep the issue altogether by just making your low poly cage dense enough to begin with. but that may become a problem later for animation and skinning.

jin

p.s. oh yeah, as for lw displacement mapping... i have officially written it off as a non-function until they make it predictable and announce that it has been officially addressed. every time i try it, there's something wrong somewhere and i'm just too tired to go about trying to figure out exactly WHY it's NOT WORKING!!!

Mattoo
03-16-2004, 12:32 PM
Jin,

Cool, I'm glad we're on the same page and can see the same problems.
In all honesty I'd probably never want to try accurately predicting what a displacement map might do created from a 2D app. All my efforts are on getting ZBrush or even Body Paint into LW.

Out of interest, check out this guy, he tried doing exactly that it seems, painting in PS a displacment map and then apply that to a Sub-D low poly cage using the Vertex shading in DirectX to do the displacing:

It's about halfway down this page, click on the picture with the low poly woman - quite impressive.

http://www.frost-art.com/Data/HTML/Tech.html

mandel
03-16-2004, 08:34 PM
hey
this normal map discussion has really interested me. it would be awsome to use zbrushes tools to scuplt detail, cuz modeling a million plus poly object in lightwave laggs seriously. i did some tests using the links and stuff i found, just to see how easy it would be. it was pretty simple, the detailed model i did really fast just to pust some extra something in there for the normals to pick up.
here are my results.
http://www.davidhensley.com/nomaltest.jpg
i'm getting some wierd stuff though. like around the nose. and when i turn subd's on, the meshes normal mapped detail seems to jiggle a bit, like it was noised up. like this:
http://www.davidhensley.com/jiggly.jpg
any thoughts?:)

jinchoung
03-17-2004, 12:10 AM
hey mattoo,

cool links.

but actually, i wasn't AT ALL addressing a scenario where you would use photoshop to paint displacements! what i meant was that if you create a counterdistorted bitmap for the displacements with zbrush, it will be exceedingly difficult to paint the COLOR MAP for that model with photoshop... again, not much of a problem if you decide to use zbrush or deeppaint3d for that task but a pain to deal with in a 2der....

hey, and where did you model your mohawk model? that's very very detailed and cool.

mandel,

couple of things right off... your low poly mesh is triangles... but notice the subdivision surface that you created in zbrush - it's all QUADS....

it seems like zbrush uses catmull clark for its subdivision. lw does not. instead of turning all faces into quads in the first subdivision step, lw keeps triangles as triangles... that may account for some of the discrepancy.

also, as i've noted before, i don't really trust lw's displacements to actually work reliably so you just might be running into the joys of bugginess.

jin

Mattoo
03-17-2004, 01:34 AM
Jin: Ah, okay I see we weren't on the same page :p But I can see your point now. I hadn't really thought of it in all honesty, but I couldn't imagine it would would be vastly different from painting over a bump map, which is what I traditionally do anyway....?

But as you say, it's not a problem if one plans to use a 3D paint app - which I do.

As to ZBrush using a Catmull Clark scheme, I'd be surprised (I can't see the pictures), the implementation in Maya seems to be incredibly slow that I'm surprised something well known for it's speed (ZBrush) uses it. But I guess that could just be Mayas problem and not an inherent one with the scheme.

mandel
03-17-2004, 01:41 AM
actually i created the hi poly object in lightwave not zbrush,
i want to use zbrush to do it.

jinchoung
03-17-2004, 01:47 AM
hey mandel,

errr, so how is it that your low poly cage is triangles and your high res mesh is quads?

using metaform or metaform plus?

jin

mandel
03-17-2004, 01:52 AM
actually i just tripled my object to get rid of
nonplaner faces that were showing up when
i wasn't in sub'd mode. i was just playing around
with the normal map, to see how the process
worked.

Nemoid
03-17-2004, 07:24 PM
hey guys: any good examples of objects with normal maps made in Lw/Zbrush ? anyone usiing Microwave plugin?

another question i was wondering is about the rendering, to get realistic silhouettes from them. if i understood well, its a real poligonal displacement what u use currently ?

i ask this because Lw rendering have not micropixel displacement to use normal maps properly a la LOTR. am i right?

Mattoo
03-17-2004, 10:52 PM
Hi Nemoid, since ZBrush 2 isn't out for another 2 weeks there probably won't be much evidence of LW with ZBrush generated Normal Maps/Displacement maps.
I did take a look at the beta team list on the ZBrush page and there was one or 2 LWers I recognised.

As for LW currently being incapable because of it's lack of micro polygon displacement, that's not true. You can already get as much detail as you want if you have the RAM (which is quite a bit with 1Gb RAM and above).
The other, cleverer schemes for displacement mapping are merely just that, not only faster but cheaper on the RAM. LW just has a brute force approach to it.
LWs main problem, as already discussed at length in this thread, is that it's own displacement mapping techniques are either inadequate, innapropriate or just plain broken.

There are ways to avoid some of the problems and they have been suggested earlier in this thread.
Sadly, there's not going to be much usage of ZBrush with LW in this regard until Newtek address the rendering and displacement mapping issues.

Ramon
03-17-2004, 11:04 PM
Yeah Mattoo. Newtek has got to implement Subpixel Displacement as it is in either Mental Ray or RM. That would be a sweet pipeline. Zbrush to LW (without compromise).

jinchoung
03-18-2004, 02:34 AM
it would be nice but i think it is a pipedream that newtek will ever make 'subpixel displacement' possible.

to make lw's renderer into a REYES one would basically mean throwing out most of what lw's renderer is now and make a new one from scratch. it does not at all seem to be a trivial feature addition!

from reading renderman docs, the reyes renderer does all kinds of crazy partitioning in order to make their adaptive tesselation into micropolys at all possible.

lw, and most renderers don't even approximate that kind of procedure.

SO....

we have to live with a renderer that is quite nice but not quite perfect for film level character work... it's good enough and great for the money, but it's NOT going to be the end all be all of renderers. that is the reality. you're NOT gonna get a benz... you're gonna get a honda accord.

and to hope for any different is to simply ignore all economic ramifications.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMO, since renderman and REYES renderers ARE the end all be all of renderers, it would be extremely wise for newtek to begin to execute what is imo, a DOABLE plan:

make lw architecture such that it is possible to SWAP OUT renderers in their entirety. make the lw scene description and architecture such that it is easily portable to RIB or other schemes.

and that includes supporting true catmull clark surfaces with edge and vert weighting.

there are a lot of even FREE REYES renderers out there (aqsis is one) and so this is probably the best way that lw can remain viable for extensive high end use.

jin

Nemoid
03-18-2004, 08:06 AM
Originally posted by Mattoo
Hi Nemoid, since ZBrush 2 isn't out for another 2 weeks there probably won't be much evidence of LW with ZBrush generated Normal Maps/Displacement maps.
I did take a look at the beta team list on the ZBrush page and there was one or 2 LWers I recognised.

As for LW currently being incapable because of it's lack of micro polygon displacement, that's not true. You can already get as much detail as you want if you have the RAM (which is quite a bit with 1Gb RAM and above).
The other, cleverer schemes for displacement mapping are merely just that, not only faster but cheaper on the RAM. LW just has a brute force approach to it.
LWs main problem, as already discussed at length in this thread, is that it's own displacement mapping techniques are either inadequate, innapropriate or just plain broken.

There are ways to avoid some of the problems and they have been suggested earlier in this thread.
Sadly, there's not going to be much usage of ZBrush with LW in this regard until Newtek address the rendering and displacement mapping issues.

Thanx for the reply, Mattoo! i actually was speaking of micro pixels displacement, just because i think micro poly displacement can take a great amount of memory and huge rendertimes, i think. am i assuming wrong? i think micropixel displacemenh has 2 main advantages, because it produces images with real displaced look also in silhouette and has maybe faster rendertimes.

i wasn't suggesting Lw renderer is crap in anyway, nor that the Lw/Zbrush pipeline is crap. was only asking for infos just because i'd really want to use this technique in lw.

about LW rendering, i think the best thing would be open Lw to externar renderers, just like other apps did. also,maybe in the future they can address the micropixel displacement in some way? it would be really good.

another thing i'm wondering is that maybe Fprime will handle micropixel disp in the future? as the first attempt for an external renderer for Lw this would put it among engines like Mental Ray or Final Render...:drool:

xtrm3d
03-18-2004, 12:08 PM
hey guys: any good examples of objects with normal maps made in Lw/Zbrush ?

hi nemoid..
dont know..if this is a good example..
but at least this is one .. :-)

meshe object done in lw .. sculpt detailling in zbrush 2 .. then export as a displacement map ..

subdivision level in lightewave put on level 7 at render time

http://www.xtrm3d.com/bilder/freedom_fighter/freedomfinal2.jpg

if any need , would try to post a wireframe later ..

Ramon
03-18-2004, 12:09 PM
I think Jin has got it right.
Thanks for the insight Jin.

Ramon
03-18-2004, 12:15 PM
xtrm3d, did you use any normal mapping in that image?

I am curious to see how LW would handle heavy (obvious) displacement extrusions that are curved. That way, you can really see if it "holds up". That would be great to see!
Thanks for posting the image.

Mattoo
03-18-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by xtrm3d
hi nemoid..
dont know..if this is a good example..
but at least this is one .. :-)

meshe object done in lw .. sculpt detailling in zbrush 2 .. then export as a displacement map ..

subdivision level in lightewave put on level 7 at render time

if any need , would try to post a wireframe later ..

Excellent Christoph, I noticed you on the beta list but I didn't want to point any expectant fingers :)

Could you tell us what methods/techniques and mappings you used to achieve that? What has been your working method?

Also, have tried doing any more extreme displacements rather than your example - which is not very deeply displaced.

Thanks very much.

xtrm3d
03-18-2004, 01:37 PM
well i .. just exported a gray displacemnt map out of zbrush ..
and put it on my object as a displacement :-) (under object property pannel )

at the times of this test .. i did have problem with the brocken uv of lightwave ..for displacement ..but my "small finger " told me that this issue shoul be solved in 8 " :)

my workflow :

1 : head modelling in lightwave around 700 polys

2 : imported the model in zbrush , creation of the uv map ,

3 : subdivion of the head in zbrush on level 6 .. should been around 800 000 polys ..

sculpting in real time ..:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

and painted some texture in zbrush

4 exporting of the level 5 and 6 as a bump map , and the level 4 as displacement map .. ( did not use normal shading displacemnt cause i dont really like the limitation with rendering )
and exported the texture too

5 : imported my low poly head back in lightwave .. and applied the displacement in the object property pannel ....+ added the color map and the bump to my surface ..

6 : put my subdivision level for the head on level 7 at render time et voila .. :-)


by the way .. i tried it in maya.. with the standard renderer and subdivision surface .. and it worked like a charme ...

Ramon
03-18-2004, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by xtrm3d


by the way .. i tried it in maya.. with the standard renderer and subdivision surface .. and it worked like a charme ...

I bet it worked much better through Maya huh? I heard that, that was Weta's pipeline with regard's to zbrush. Yet, you used the standard render? To really take full advantage of Zbrush's micro displacements wouldn't you need to render through Mental ray?

xtrm3d, I am very interested in this:
Since Maya allows the use of 5 point polys with sub-d surfaces, how does Zbrush handle 5 point polys from Maya? Reason for this of course is to minimize the number of polys that Zbrush will create in certain areas.
Example: Say the head of your object (seamless object) is the only area of the whole body that you need very detailed, in this case you can utilies Maya's 5 point polys (instead of dealing with edge loops) to create more geometry in that area only. Thus, this should translate in Zbrush to a much more poly dense area instead of waisting polys by equally subdividing the whole model.
True?
Thanks for your insight.

Mattoo
03-18-2004, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by xtrm3d
well i .. just exported a gray displacemnt map out of zbrush ..
and put it on my object as a displacement :-) (under object property pannel )



Thanks for answering that. You say you had the UV seam problems that we are aware of. But what type of Displacement did you use? LW has 3 methods from with the Object Properties:

Normal Displacement,
Bump Displacement,
... or old fashioned projection based (which I'd be surprised if ZBrush works with).

?

If it was Normal Displacement, which is the most appropriate, I don't notice you get any of the strange undeformed vertices that I suffer from.

Thanks for answering these questions, I hope your little finger is right about LW 8, although I somehow doubt it.

Cheers.

xtrm3d
03-19-2004, 08:30 AM
of Displacement did you use? LW has 3 methods from with the Object Properties

well , :-)
i used the normal displacemnt plugin in the object property panel

and yes ..i got these ugly uv seam problem .. but i was able with a little work to "work" them out ... i would "later" put an example file to download wit object ,map , and scenes


something that lot of people are thinking .. is that zbrush dont work well with lightwave ...
i would say that not true ... thatīs more lightwave who dont work well with zbrush :p

as told befor.. i can live with the lack of subpixel displacement ..
but not with the uv seam problem in the normal dispalcement ...

i tried the " bump displacemnt " solution that worked well.. in lightwave .. but that induced too much problem with lightning and shadow.. for my taste ...

by the way.. .. itīs work as a really nice 3d painter !!!!

i am really waiting to see the reaction from the people when they put theyr hand on zbrush 2 .. that stuff is not an evolution .. but more a revolution ... dont get me wrong ..i am bnot a fanboy.. or in the marketing team from zbrush .. that just that i feel ... that zbrush is the perfekt tools to work side by side with my two main application of choice .. lightwave and maya



:thumbsup:

roguenroll
03-19-2004, 08:39 AM
yep, I can't wait. :) Ive seen some great stuff

Mattoo
03-19-2004, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by xtrm3d
well , :-)
i used the normal displacemnt plugin in the object property panel

and yes ..i got these ugly uv seam problem .. but i was able with a little work to "work" them out ... i would "later" put an example file to download wit object ,map , and scenes


:thumbsup:

Thanks for that. I seem to suffer further misfortune with the Normal Displacement than you did, not just with UV seams - although I do try to work around the problems.

I'll have to post screen grabs of some of the problems here and see if anyone has any solutions for them.

Don't worry about being a fanboy of ZBrush, I already am and I haven't even used ZBrush 2 yet! ;)

Many thanks.

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