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spakman
05-10-2002, 07:33 PM
It's been great seeing all these lo poly character concept pieces! A ton of talent all around! :beer:

WI would get an even greater kick out of seeing, are some hirez poly models, mebbe 12k, built animator friendly, and then see a version of that, down rezed to like 3 and even 1.5k.

Somebody who can do that effectively would be somebody the game industry is going to be gunning for....

cya. d=^)

MosaFacku
05-11-2002, 07:50 AM
is this a big *nudge nudge wink wink* type of post? out of curiosity, what types of games can support these high res models?

tpe
05-11-2002, 10:37 AM
Is this what you mean

http://www.tnslblover.co.uk/users/tpe/megadentlow.jpg

This is 3k

then there is a 10 k version here http://users.cybercity.dk/~dsl11905/resume/Images/paradents1.jpg

and a 1.5 k on its way, still have to texture it though, if i ever get round to it

tpe

spakman
05-11-2002, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by MosaFacku
is this a big *nudge nudge wink wink* type of post? out of curiosity, what types of games can support these high res models?


You'd be surprised what can find its way into a game if you build if first, then show the boss...

Seriously tho, it isn't so much as to what types of games can support higher rez. Any game that you are soon to be paid for working on will. It just depends on where you put the polys. RE can go that hi cos that's pretty much all they use the triangles for. But they do it, and the artists are clearly up to the task.

All these low poly models are great, but they're for 20th century tech. Or mebbe one of the mid to low LOD that will be like 150 pixels max onscreen. And any new game involving characters is only going to get more detailed as Moore's law rolls on.

At the minimum, I think a developer's gonna want to know that their fresh meat can handle the hi rez when that new processor comes out....

MosaFacku
05-12-2002, 12:05 AM
cool. thanks for explainin. yeah, i feel like an idiot for replying before i checked out your profile. thanks for the heads up. it really goes along with what i've been told in school, not to worry about keepin it too low anymore, systems can and will handle much higher res. thanks again.

prototyp3
05-12-2002, 05:53 PM
In regards to your last comment, I don't think low polygon artists have any problem building models with more detail. It's much easier than having a TV/film artist, used to hi res work, build and a texture a character model using less than 1500 triangles.

I do agree that things are going to change and soon. However, I think you'll still see low polygon models around in some specific genres.

spakman
05-12-2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by prototyp3
In regards to your last comment, I don't think low polygon artists have any problem building models with more detail. It's much easier than having a TV/film artist, used to hi res work, build and a texture a character model using less than 1500 triangles.

I do agree that things are going to change and soon. However, I think you'll still see low polygon models around in some specific genres.

Which is why I added the caveat of successfully downrezing same model. There's a certain skill to that as well....

But things aren't going to change soon. They're changing right now. They never stop changing.

If I were gonna hire somebody (and I have NO say here) I wouldn't hire an artist for "specific genre". If I'm hiring a character artist, I want to know their skills can handle what's to come.

First thing I would say is: "Great work! Now show me how your edgeloops and other topology stands up at 30K."

spakman
05-15-2002, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by MosaFacku
.... it really goes along with what i've been told in school, not to worry about keepin it too low anymore, systems can and will handle much higher res...

See now you've piqued my curiosity. So, what do they teach all the heads about realtime character theory nowadays?

MosaFacku
05-15-2002, 05:48 AM
well, they teach us heads...not to be so uptight about real time anymore. we still need to be very conscious of not wasting polys, but we need to be aware that we have a lot more to work with now that consoles and graphics cards can push a lot of polys. also, they made sure we knew that memory for texture space is very valuable so use it wisely. those are pretty much the main concepts of what i got out of the class. it was only a month long so that kinda blew. if you want more info, the schools site is www.fullsail.com.
is there anything that in particular that you'd like to see in game art courses or in artists right out of school? since i'm going to graduate soon, (november), i could really use any advice you guys can give.

tpe
05-15-2002, 10:15 AM
I cant say that i agree, in unreall the polycount is about the highest of soon to be games and that is still only 3k for actors that appear individually, as soon as there are several on screen that drops quickly. In high poly work if you have deformation problems you just put anothe line of verts in, that cant be done in real time applications. The increase in geometry was very rapid 2 years ago but has slowed recently from q2 to q3.

I am working on games that are to be released this year and the polycount is very critical, and although there is constant change resources continue to be scarce. When you create high poly work it is necessary to continiously hide various aspects of the scene to allow the hardware to cope with the number of elements in the scene. The secret of real time art is to understand and accomodate these limitations. that skill is to some extent necessary in high poly and will always be required when developing for any media that uses all the recources of its destination platform.

Anyone can be taught to model something that looks correct but not everyone cando that and combine it with an understanding of how it can be efficiently applied to real time media.

The skill of the reall time artes is not going to be obsolete any time soon, and that skill is waht will seperate the mediocre high poly artist from one that really knowes his stuff.

tpe

spakman
05-15-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by tpe
...Anyone can be taught to model something that looks correct but not everyone cando that and combine it with an understanding of how it can be efficiently applied to real time media.
tpe

I find the opposite to be true. You have to have "the eye" first. Once you have that, the rest is mere procedure - true, it may be cutting edge NDA company specific procedure, but it's still procedure. If somebody can't effectively model hirez, then they probably don't have a fundamental understanding form and planes. That person may have knowledge and experience in pipeline infrastructure, but would ultimately be suited for an art tech position, rather than art asset creation.

Forget about quarter to quarter tech advances. Don't get lost in that stuff. You're not selling an excuse, you're selling entertainment. The customer, doesn't care about catch phrase mumbo jumbo. They only care that they saw something cool on one game and want to see more of that in others. And the better your art, the better the sale. Its up to you, the artist to do the best you can, and downsize from there.

The thing is, if a programmer sez you can't have it in there, you don't necessarily have to take that as gospel. Assets that rock may inspire the programmer streamline something or optimise something else in order to get your stuff in. Then you push a little more and see what happens.

Then end result is an artist - programmer relationship with significant R&D advantages over a team where guidelines are religiously adhered to. Remember, this is new stuff to the programmers too. They also don't have complete knowledge on what can and can't be done with new tech.

Even if the hi rez doesn't make it into the game, chance are the version that does will look a lot better than it would have if you had started out thinking low poly from the get-go.

peace d=^)

CADster
05-15-2002, 07:48 PM
Originally posted by spakman


is an artist - programmer relationship

ummm, i never knew there was such a thing ;)



CADster

spakman
05-16-2002, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by MosaFacku
is there anything that in particular that you'd like to see in game art courses or in artists right out of school? since i'm going to graduate soon, (november), i could really use any advice you guys can give.

Well, I kinda make this stuff up as I go - and keep in mind that anything I say is heavily biased toward characters...

I guess I would put setup and weighting techniques right up there with modeling techniques. Even if you don't want to be an animator, you should thorougly understand how your creation moves. A better understanding of setup will most definitely influence where and how you model your hirez detail.

The kicker is, it's one thing to get a ton of extra triangles in your budget, and quite another to know where and how to arrange them so that your character doesn't blow the fantasy when it moves.

This little headf**k is compounded when you consider your model will most likely be realtime and inspected from all angles, and you don't get to use all the fancy muscle and skin and cloth deformation hooyahs that all the current FMV folks get to play with for their staged, non realtime, single vantage point shots...

cya d=^)

MosaFacku
05-16-2002, 09:45 AM
thanks for the help.

spakman
05-24-2002, 12:54 AM
heh, kinda appropo'

From today's Blue's News (5-23-02) re Doom III models...

http://www.bluesnews.com/

quote

...The original models created for the monsters are made up of over 100,000 polygons, but are then scaled down as much as possible without losing that high-quality look...

end of quote

L8

MosaFacku
05-24-2002, 06:06 AM
downloaded the Legacy of Doom movie. Doom 3 looks amazing. I read what spakman posted about 100,000 poly characters that are scaled down.....but how much are they scaled down? 50% 75%? anyone ideas?

spakman
05-24-2002, 11:35 PM
Originally posted by MosaFacku
...about 100,000 poly characters that are scaled down.....but how much are they scaled down? 50% 75%? anyone ideas?

I think they're using sub-D's like within they're engine, so it may very well be camera dependent (true auto LOD). Dunno for sure.

Anybody? d=^\

MosaFacku
05-25-2002, 02:46 AM
no way, that'd be friggin sweet. i haven't heard a thing about a real time subD engine. i feel so behind. i was told that is a few years down the road if that soon. where can i research emerging real time tech?? i read game developer religiously. i visit gamasutra every day. i check this place and many other forums. i go to differenct studios' websites regularly. you'd think i'd be on top of things!! ;) anyways, it'd be awesome if it was subD but some of the screen shots show monsters that dont look subD....granted since subDs have resolution independence, they can have hard edges and stuff.......but still. while writing this, i just checked out that legacy of doom vid where the dude that used to work at pdi is explaining how they make the models and the shot of the monitor where they've got a model loaded up in max doesnt look like its subD. now, i could be completely wrong, its just what i see.

anyone else??

see spakman, ya should have gone to e3 and found out first hand!! then you could let us all know;)

spakman
05-29-2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by MosaFacku
no way, that'd be friggin sweet. i haven't heard a thing about a real time subD engine. i feel so behind. i was told that is a few years down the road if that soon....

The gamecube can do it now. So can the G3. Its just a matter of pipeline infrastructure, your knowledge base and your production schedule.

That's why I asked what they're teaching, and why I stressed having "the eye." Maybe I'm working with realtime sub-d's right now, or maybe we don't have the pipeline in yet and are working with polys. It would break my NDA, I think, to say, but the point is, don't wait for the tech to come to you, be ready for the tech. Either way, I'm confident in my buds here.

And what that rilly means is, don't think tech, think goal. Imagine what you are trying to make, and make it. If it's dope enough, the rest will take care of itself.

peace

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