XSI and game-engines?

[IslandDreamer]

I'm not aware of any lower-end game engines that would import particles or ICE compounds. (I don't think higher end engines do it either, but I don't have any hands-on experience with them.)

Unity will import Softimage meshes, animation and texture maps generated by RenderMap. Unity does not directly support Softimage's file format. Objects will have to be exported as .obj, .fbx or .dae using Crosswalk. I've confirmed that 3.3 works perfectly with Unity 2.5.

I hope some enterprising developer will soon come up with a way to import shaders into Unity. No matter what shader you assign in Softimage, the imported file will be the equivalent of a Blinn or Lambert. You will then have to manually assign a shader in Unity. Someone on the forums demonstrated progress being made on such a utility for Maya.

This link http://www.theunityartist.com/forum/index.php?topic=250.0 points to a video demonstrating the export of an animated mesh from XSI 7 to Unity 2.5.

Hope that helps. Unity rocks and we need more Softimage artists in the community!

[wannabeArtist]

Thanks for the info!

Is all of that you mentioned available in the Indie version of Unity?

From what I've read so far about Unity seems great, but I'm not quite sure if I understood what exactly is provided with Indie (=affordable) version and what is not.

I also got the idea that XNA might be more versatile but also more code-oriented - I don't know if understood that correctly.

P.S. Sorry, if this gets almost off-topic considering the forum, but since I'm doing all my 3d work in XSI and interested in game-engines that would be both easy-to-start with and would work with XSI content, I could not find a better forum for my post :)

[IslandDreamer]

I definitely recommend Unity Pro when you're ready for it, but the only thing you'll miss at first in the Indie version are real-time shadows. This link points to the features of each version: http://unity3d.com/unity/licenses

XNA is 100% code, so you won't get much out of it unless you are a programmer. It's free so check it out for yourself: http://creators.xna.com/en-US

[wannabeArtist]

Thanks for clearing that up!

If I start with Unity, it's going to be the Indie version since I'm not getting any profit for this. I'm simply trying to teach myself something that would improve my chances in the job market.

I am a programmer actually, but in fact I'm trying to change that and instead get a job in 3d modeling or closely related position -most probably in the game industry.

This is why I'm not sure if I want to go with XNA, because I know how long it can take to get anything half-working when coding from scratch and I want to be able to make something decent, both in order to learn and perhaps also serve as portfolio material :)

[IslandDreamer]

If you decide on Unity, please look me up on the Unity and UnityArtist forums. I could always use a programmer collaborator.

[wannabeArtist]

Thanks,

I will get back to you on the appropriate forums if I go further with Unity. At least I will try the demo out first :)

[R10k]

Another alternative to Unity is Shiva (http://www.stonetrip.com). Unity and Shiva both have advantages over each other, and issues, but both are worth checking out. Shiva's PLE version also doesn't expire, so you can tinker with it for as long as you like, before commiting any cash.

But what if I want to make use of particle systems or some fancy ICE-trick done with XSI?

In theory you could store the animation of an object made in ICE and import that to either program. Someone please correct me if that isn't possible- I haven't yet looked into it :)

No matter what shader you assign in Softimage, the imported file will be the equivalent of a Blinn or Lambert. You will then have to manually assign a shader in Unity.

Are you talking about Mental Ray shaders to realtime? That's never going to happen, if you are. Otherwise, I can agree it'd be nice to have any realtime shader built in XSI exportable to either program. But, even then the chances are pretty slim, because XSI can do so much it'd be incredibly easy to include something that'd break the shader in Unity. It doesn't take long to set things up in either Shiva or Unity, so... personally I don't think it's worth the hassle.

[CiaranM]

In theory you could store the animation of an object made in ICE and import that to either program. Someone please correct me if that isn't possible- I haven't yet looked into it :)


I don't think you'll be able to export particles as such, but with a bit of work you can plot your particles to fcurves e.g. on nulls. A workaround as long as the particle system is not too heavy.

[wannabeArtist]

Thanks for mentioning Shiva - that one I had not heard about before, must check it out.

I just installed the trial for Unity and I got to say it's pretty cool. With very little work and knowledge of it, I already managed to import the girl character from the DT training that comes with XSI 7! I didn't get the animation to work yet, though, but it's pretty amazing how easy that was :)

It's really too bad (for an enthusiast, not for Unity) that they left shadows out of the Indie version. I can imagine that the character and the environment look really cool with the shadows, but I'm not going to pay 1000 euros for it, not as a hobbyist.

I can do without the particles and ICE-tricks for now :) I was just curious to know if they can be used in games.

[IslandDreamer]

You can simulate shadows in the Indie version by using blob shadows (a texture projection attached to your moving character) and lightmapping your static meshes. It's actually preferable to do the latter for your levels because point light sources are very computationally expensive.

R10k, I didn't mean Mental Ray shaders exactly (although that would be sweet. Mental Mill is actually supposed to allow you to create FX shaders, but I'm not sufficiently technical to figure it out). What I just want is for Unity to tell the difference between a Phong, Lambert, Blinn or other standard shader, so that you don't have to go the extra step of defining the shader after the mesh has been imported. Not that big a deal, but it adds up over time.

[R10k]

What I just want is for Unity to tell the difference between a Phong, Lambert, Blinn or other standard shader, so that you don't have to go the extra step of defining the shader after the mesh has been imported. Not that big a deal, but it adds up over time.

Ah, no worries... I see :)

It's really too bad (for an enthusiast, not for Unity) that they left shadows out of the Indie version.

And slapped a splash screen for all applications made with it, and disabled any post processing effects. Shiva has the post processing effects included with all versions, but then solid networking (included in the price of the lower-end version) and a solid net player aren't something Shiva has just yet. Unity's physics system is currently a step above Shiva's also, but it really depends on what it is you're after. The pros and cons of each go on and on and on... :)

[IslandDreamer]

If Shiva had been available when I first discovered Unity a couple of years ago, I might have given it serious consideration. At the time, using Unity meant purchasing a Mac as well!

I don't regret the purchase, but bouncing between platforms is a hassle. It's great to be able to model and prototype on the same Windows box.

[IslandDreamer]

Found this interesting thread on the Mental Mill forums: http://forum.mentalimages.com/showthread.php?t=5266

It's good to note that Unity is at least on Mental Images' radar!

[wannabeArtist]

That's good to know about Mental Images!

Didn't get to try Shiva just yet, but I guess will.

Licensing is a big deal when I choose software: I don't want to be trying out something really expensive for 30 days and on the other hand I would like to have all the features with a hobbyist price :)

That's why I chose XSI couple of years ago when I was wondering which 3d package to choose: XSI had the Foundation edition for relatively cheap price and nothing major missing, so I went and bought that. Foundation was not for commercial work, but that was not my idea either - I was just looking for a 3d app to learn (quite like now with game-engines). Last winter I did update to Essentials, but only because Foundation got discontinued.

[IslandDreamer]

I took the same route: going from Foundation to Essentials with maintenance. I don't like being forced to renew every year, but it beats forking over $3000 all at once.

I hope Autodesk reconsiders its pricing and creates an entry level version of Softimage soon. The Mod Tool is a great way for students, hobbyists and modders to learn the fundamentals of the software for free, but there should be a sub-$1000 bridge to the full version for independent artists.

[wannabeArtist]

You're definitely right!

I for one don't understand why software companies don't want to tap in to hobbyists' wallets and rather see illegal use of their software!

Expecting a home user to pay more than, say, $1000 for a software is pretty steep and yet - as a programmer myself - I rather leave it alone than use an illegal version.
Even with XSI I'm now staying away from updates for a while. It just gets too expensive, since I'm not (yet) doing any profit with it.

Anyways, I just very briefly tried Shiva and worked one tutorial.

I did get the impression that Shiva might have allow more control over the code, but on the other hand it was not quite as intuitive and fast to learn as Unity. Also what's that language used with Shiva? Some sort of custom Lua?

At least for now it seems that I try to learn Unity first and then after the trial I see if I can afford the Indie license (out of job now, so very small budget).

[wannabeArtist]

Well, I really don't seem to get Shiva work for me very easily :-/

I could not get the DT tutorial character imported into Shiva, no matter what. Even updated Crosswalk, but no luck - This was definitely easier with FBX in Unity, too bad the shaders look really nice in Shiva demos.


Anyhoo, If anyone cares to share experiences about making games with XNA (or yet another framework/engine) - I would like to hear it!

If not, then I guess I try to learn Unity and see if I can gather up the 149 euros for the license, before the trial expires!

[IslandDreamer]

The guys at Unity are usually good about granting extensions to the trial period. Don't be too shy to ask!

[3dtutorial]

I agree -- the Unity people are great!

Cheers,

J

[Jettatore]

Unity is very solid. I played with it for about a month when they first released the Windows demo and I learned a lot in a short period of time before it expired on me. It's somewhat similar to other artist friendly coding software I've worked with and I'm finding Javascript, it's version of it, is relatively simple to understand. It also worked great with Softimage. Honestly though, you could probably get away with the Mod Tool and Unity if you had to for the time being, full .FBX support. As far as particles and effects and stuff, Unity has tools for that, and you wouldn't be able to properly get that done in Softimage and transfer it to a game engine.

[R10k]

I took the same route: going from Foundation to Essentials with maintenance. I don't like being forced to renew every year, but it beats forking over $3000 all at once.

Same here- wasn't that a good deal? :)

I could not get the DT tutorial character imported into Shiva, no matter what. Even updated Crosswalk, but no luck - This was definitely easier with FBX in Unity, too bad the shaders look really nice in Shiva demos.

Just a word of advice- don't worry too much about importing experiences with something like a pre-built character from DT. With all middleware solutions you'll no doubt hit issues eventually, and a big part of (indie) game development is building a pipeline that's solid. Shiva has issues with XSI rigs that contain shadow rig parts (the devs are now aware of it) and it's pretty easy to get around, once you know how. So far my pipeline consists of importing/exporting through five programs, so getting things to work in Shiva is just one of my pipeline issues to work out :)

Obviously in a non-middleware solution a programmer might build a converter for an XSI rig/model and strip out what's needed for the game. With things like Shiva, the stripping out (for the most part) needs to be done by the artist.

I did get the impression that Shiva might have allow more control over the code, but on the other hand it was not quite as intuitive and fast to learn as Unity.

Really? I've never seen Lua before, and managed to pick up Stonescript (a cutdown version of Lua) in no time at all. My only previous programing experience was with a form of basic. Unity on the other hand, while decent, was much harder. I guess for a programmer though, it's all down to what you're used to.

[wannabeArtist]

Darn, so many posts and no notification! I really got to stop trusting that reply notification!

Honestly though, you could probably get away with the Mod Tool and Unity if you had to for the time being, full .FBX support. As far as particles and effects and stuff, Unity has tools for that, and you wouldn't be able to properly get that done in Softimage and transfer it to a game engine.

Thanks, I do currently have an XSI Essentials license, but if I would had known about Mod tool before, I might have settled for that or at least started with that. Oh well, I do want to learn 3d modeling and related tasks in a more general sense, so I can't really say I wasted my money there :)

R10k,

I guess it's a matter of preference, at least for me having no prior experience with game-engines or such. I was mainly referring to the interface, though, and general learning curve rather than the programming language.

I do come from a Java background (non-game related applications) so in that sense Javascript is more intuitive to me, although it's really not the same thing as Java and I never used that in a work setting (so far).

[R10k]

Darn, so many posts and no notification! I really got to stop trusting that reply notification!

Sometimes ol' Cgtalk's mailer needs white listing ;)

I was mainly referring to the interface, though, and general learning curve rather than the programming language.

No worries then :thumbsup:

[Jettatore]

Off conversation but on topic. Softimage 7.5 x64 no longer works with Valves Source kit. You can grab the new mod tool and use it with that still but it would be nice if the family was all back together, as Valve and Softimage have had a strong partnership and a great pipeline with each other since the release of HL2, which is what sold me on my first Softimage purchase several years back. Just hoping a rep will see this and get the issue resolved.

[wannabeArtist]

That's pretty much on topic still - It would be cool to have a sub-forum for game-engines in CGTalk...

Good to know that. How is the Valve? Is it difficult to learn? Expensive?

I have been totally sucked in to learn Unity - no actual modeling for a week :D

[Jettatore]

You get everything you need to make a mod with Source engine when you buy any Source engine game, it's pretty solid. The Unreal Engine 3 editor is pretty phenomenal as well however the licensing for commercial use is astronomical. Unity is probably your best bet, I quite like Unity myself, however I'm a huge Team Fortress 2 fan and have been toying around with map mods and having the Valve Source tools not work in Softimage 7.5 x64 forces me to add an extra step into my pipeline and it's a pain.

I have a free copy of Half-Life 2 and HL2 Episode 1 if you want them, that should give you access to the source engine tools for free.

[wannabeArtist]

Thanks for the offer!

I do think I stick with Unity for now. I'm still quite a beginner with it and I better concentrate on learning that first :)

But very good to know that, as Valve was mentioned in Softimage site and I didn't know anything about it. I guess the commercial licensing price is really expensive for most of these products that come with games. Isn't that the case with CryEngines also?

[Jettatore]

It seems that way, you do get virtually all of the tools to make your mod or total conversion with Source, Unreal Engine or Crytek Engine that the original teams had but if you actually finish a full fledged game with any of them, the cost of licensing to sell it commercially is in the hundreds of thousands plus more for the console SDK's to port it. There are older engines, like the original Quake, that are now completely open source where if you can do some serious programming you can use the base code completely for free. It does strike me that if you had a worthwhile project ready for sale that these companies, especially Valve, would make an effort to help you go commercial because if what you have is good everyone would make money, but thats a big leap of faith if your putting in the ammount of time and energy required to pull off such a feat. If I was determined to make an indie game for commercial sale I'd stick with Unity.

Anyways, if anyone is in need of the original HL2 and Episode One for the editor or just to play the game let me know.

[wannabeArtist]

Yeah, that's a big investment even if you have a whole team of really talented artists and programmers and a wonderful idea for the game.

I guess it explains why not everyone wants to use ready-made engines. Check out this (http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/MarkDeLoura/20090302/581/The_Engine_Survey_General_results.php) article for interesting survey results about use of game-engines :)

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