CGTalk - W.I.P.

JamesMK

07-24-2003, 07:53 PM

The red ones look good, but they should perhaps be a bit more irregularly shaped. They might also look better not so saturated and slightly darker.

The sausage-shaped thingies on the surface of the white cell looks a bit detatched IMO, like they are not really part of the same geometry (at least compared to the reference image).

Interesting stuff anyway.

JIII

07-25-2003, 01:21 AM

hmm the picture shows the white little tubular doo hickys as a part of the white cell.

in your pic they really are not. maybe you need to mess around with matrix exrude and they hyper nurbs it.

this might just might help you achieve the look of it them being a part of the whole.

SeanL

07-25-2003, 02:40 AM

Thanks for the comments guys.

JIII, matrix extrude and HN? Ok.

I think metaballs would work too, but I can't get good feedback with it on my slower computer.

Sean

ndat

07-25-2003, 03:00 AM

nooo... for the sake of all thats holly matrix it meat balls on that would make render times insane. Nice pic by the way is it a little somthin somthin for that special someone?

flingster

07-25-2003, 10:39 AM

joeld is always good for tips on this type of work
looks ok to me though.

SeanL

07-25-2003, 06:03 PM

Hi joeld,
any suggestions appreciated.

Sean

chikega

07-25-2003, 06:51 PM

White blood cells have always been tricky - I've used deformation maps - but the poly count does get out of hand quickly.

One bit of advice, as it stands now - the RBC's have a bit of a squarish shape. I would use a hexagonal shape before using HyperNurbs to get a rounder blood cell shape

http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Octagon.JPG
http://www.3ddmd.com/gallery_enter.htm

Hint: I would use a Cylinder object - scale it down along the Y axis - "Rotation Segments" set to 6 - "Height Segments" set to 1 or 2. Then convert it to a poly object. This is a lot easier than extruding a HyperNurbs "n-side" curve with resulting end caps.

AdamT

07-25-2003, 07:48 PM

Joel must be busy or on vacation or something. Haven't seen any posts from him in a while.

flingster

07-25-2003, 07:55 PM

hey adamt does he have a website seanL could look at?
:shrug:

flingster

07-25-2003, 08:07 PM

found it
http://www.joeldubin.net/

http://www.joeldubin.net/assets/movies/pharma_1.mov

SeanL

07-25-2003, 08:11 PM

Gary,

Thanks. I found your modeling tips for the red cells very helpful.

I'm not familiar with the terminology 'deformation maps' as I'm relatively new to 3d. Can you elaborate on this?

Sean

JoelOtron

07-25-2003, 08:14 PM

Hey guys--I'm here--just been busy on a project. wish it was a vaca :(

I had similar thoughts as others did here already so I didnt feel I needed to post.

Looks nice, (and great photo reference) but I mighte add a secondary bump and displacement map on the RBCs. Nickl will work well too (thats what I sometimes use for that sort of thing)

The nodule thingies on the WBCs dont look attached, as stated b4. Maybe just increasing the shadow map resolution would help that. Using matrix extrude to random groups of square polys as your HN cage could work nice too.

And flingster, my website is kinda crappy at present :(
I am in the process of redesigning it and adding a ton more stuff into it. Hopefully by the end of the summer. It was thrown together in a weekend last year and was designed while focussing on a particular job I was trying to get so its lacking in many areas--and not completely functional.

Here it is anyway :hmm:

http://www.joeldubin.net/

(whoops--I see you found it fling)

SeanL

07-25-2003, 09:29 PM

Thanks for your ideas on this Joel.

On the RBC texture, I'm using reference photos where they have a velvet-like texture so I ended up using 'Chanlum'. Would be interested in seeing any online references where the texture looks rougher.

How to increase shadow map resolution?

Also, using matrix extrude on random groups of square polys as a HN cage...would this acheive a surface texture that would be superimposed on some kind of sphere object to get the overall shape? I guess I don't follow completely.

Sean

JoelOtron

07-25-2003, 09:41 PM

On the RBC texture, I'm using reference photos where they have a velvet-like texture so I ended up using 'Chanlum'. Would be interested in seeing any online references where the texture looks rougher.

The RBCs as shown in the ref photo have an irregularity to their form that is not apparent in you illustration. Using a displacement map and a matching bump map will help get them looking ,ore organic and natural. I'll try to do something to show you what I mean. In your material editor, you will find a bump channel and a displacement chennel into which you can add an SLA noise map (or any other kind of map). The displacememnt map works like a bump map, except it creates a bumpy surface to the geomety as well. the finer the mesh, the more detailed and accurate the displacement map.

How to increase shadow map resolution?

Select your light and in the attributes manager, go to the shadow tab. The default map is set to 250. Upping this will make your shadow more accurate and sharpen the edges a bit.

The HN and matrix extrude method probably isnt the way to go. You can achieve what you want through bump and displacement maps I think. I will try something and post later tonight.

flingster

07-25-2003, 10:03 PM

hey JoelD wake up buddy....we thought you had gone awol...heh heh...

btw...i told you he knew his RBC from his WBC!!!!:deal:

JoelOtron

07-25-2003, 10:32 PM

Here is my attempt at the red blood cells:

http://www.joeldubin.net/xol/rbcs.jpg

Here is the file (needs the pre-Jenna version of Nickl which I believe is still up at plugin Cafe)

http://www.joeldubin.net/xol/rbcs.jpg

I built the cell as illustrated by chikega so the cell was rouncer. I then added SLA 3d noise into the color, bump and displacement channel.

chikega

07-25-2003, 10:52 PM

One caveat when using displacement mapping:

Here's a displacement map using "bhodiNUT 3D Noise" - Noise Type is "Dent" - all other variables are at their default.

http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Macrophage.JPG

If you have extruded "appendages". This is what you'll end up with ... "puffy" appendages.

http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Macrophage1c.JPG

If you turn down the Height to 2m you'll get something like:

http://www.3ddmd.com/images/Macrophage1a.JPG

Somewhat less "puffiness", but you'll lose some of the displacement on the base of the object. So, for this to work properly, you'd have to make the appendages extremely skinny to offset, what I like to call, the "puff factor". Inset a lot before you extrude the appendages - and also bevel the tip so the appendages are not so pointy - more sausage like. You may also want to avoid the "Standard" sphere type because of pinching that occurs at the poles.

http://www.3ddmd.com/Sepsis.htm

I'm really not too familiar with C4D. So, it may be possible to limit the influence of the displacement map through weight maps - some of the more experienced C4D'ers may know the answer to this.

JoelOtron

07-26-2003, 02:14 AM

Originally posted by flingster
hey JoelD wake up buddy....we thought you had gone awol...heh heh...

btw...i told you he knew his RBC from his WBC!!!!:deal:

No--still here, :) .

Its also been a great summer for once here in Philly; a city known for the most disgustingly humid summers imaginable. (Last summer it was above 90º for 3 months, no rain and very humid). So I've been trying to take advantage of that. You know, life and all that.

TO CHIKEGA:

Saw your website

GREAT WORK :thumbsup:

SeanL

07-26-2003, 02:38 AM

@Joel

I see what you're saying now. It's possible to make more irregular looking cells using those channels. Thanks for the tip, I wouldn't have figured out to use them that way. :cool:

It looks like you posted the jpg twice, instead of the file.

Sean

JoelOtron

07-26-2003, 02:42 AM

whoops--try this:

www.joeldubin.net/xol/rbc_proj.c4d.zip

chikega

07-26-2003, 02:46 AM

Joel ... Thanks - I saw your goods too! :) Nice clean work and website design -

Clever name also - "myelin" studio. I can see which audience your studio is geared to ;) Are you a Johns Hopkins grad, by chance? I went to the Medical College of Georgia, myself.

JoelOtron

07-26-2003, 02:54 AM

Originally posted by chikega
Joel ... Thanks - I saw your goods too! :) Nice clean work and website design -

Clever name also - "myelin" studio. I can see which audience your studio is geared to ;) Are you a Johns Hopkins grad, by chance? I went to the Medical College of Georgia, myself.

Nope!

In terms of Medical illustration, I'm actually self taught. Went to University of the Arts in Phila, PA (BA in illustration) and soon after became an art director/illustrator/animator for a medical illustration studio nearby. Was there for almost 10 years. You can learn a lot in 10 years. :)

The place I used to work for just hired a Georgia guy as their art director, and I work with a couple of friends who have hired some freelance Georgia graduates on occasion as well. You guys must have a good program--good stuff all around.

As I said above, my site is minimal at the moment. More stuff to come.

JoelOtron

07-26-2003, 03:03 AM

Heres my take on a white blood cell.

I will explain what I did as soon as I can...

(pretty much the same approach as chikega--but I have created a selection set rom the tendrils and applied a modified material just to the tendrils----NO displacement map on the tendrils)

http://joeldubin.net/xol/leukocyte_test.jpg

SeanL

07-26-2003, 06:58 AM

Ok! That's something.

I would really be interested to hear how you created that mean blue lymphocyte.

Sean

chikega

07-26-2003, 02:33 PM

Originally posted by JoelD
Nope!
Was there for almost 10 years. You can learn a lot in 10 years. :)

Wow, that's wonderful. I've met many medical illustrators and actually some of the better ones are self-taught.

You guys must have a good program--good stuff all around.

It's one of the best ;) I'm actually an "adjunct" professor there. I went to school there from 1991-3. So, we've been out for about the same time period - ten years. They have a Mac lab, and the students were complaining about instability issues with FormZ and Electric Image 2.9. Although I was using Lightwave (PC), I couldn't really suggest LW for the Mac, because I felt it wasn't up to par to the PC version. So, I suggested C4d. Maxon gave me a free copy of C4d XL bundle for convincing them to switch to C4d. What a great company!

As I said above, my site is minimal at the moment. More stuff to come.
I can't wait to see the new site. Oh, I really like your WBC - the selection set solution is a great way to control the displacement map - but, is there anyway to get a smoother transition? Can you overlap selection sets to form a transition zone? Or maybe weight maps?:)

JoelOtron

07-26-2003, 02:43 PM

Sounds like we have similar histories in terms of 3d. We were using formZ and EI (and Strata) as well (all MAc) I discovered Cinema 4d 6.3 around 2000 and convinced the boss to buy it. No one has touched FZ and EI since. We had a lot of stability probs as well. Nothing was solid on the Mac in terms of 3d until C4d came along. Wish Maxon gave ME a free copy :)

I agree with you about the smoothing that needs t happen. There are ways to do this with weighted vertex selections using the plugin DiTools I believe and perhaps Jenna (?). I could use a weighted selection and use Nickl on that as well.

And Sean--I will post some info about the blood cell later today.

JoelOtron

07-26-2003, 02:46 PM

Heres another shot:

http://joeldubin.net/xol/testshot.jpg

AdamT

07-26-2003, 02:54 PM

You could smooth the transition in a couple of ways. The easiest would be to use a vertex weight map in place of the selection set--then use the map inside Fusion components via DirtyNuts. Another way would be to use two materials and an alpha mask, but that would require some pretty fancy UV mapping.

flingster

07-26-2003, 04:08 PM

presume you guys have seen this site.....(i think joel posted it before on here...but for those that missed it)

http://www.hybridmedicalanimation.com/pages/hybridmedicalanimationhome.html

the vapor

07-26-2003, 06:53 PM

This may be of intertest - they're abstact representatons but they're quite nice in places, the colours are a touch over saturated and the images tend to be too busy but the subject matter matter is kind of on-topic:

http://www.digitalvisiononline.co.uk/search/cd_contents.asp?cd_code=542

JoelOtron

07-26-2003, 08:14 PM

Also check out the Jackals Forge as well (Richard Morris). He is the guy responsible for the animation in Body Story and a few other amazing TV documentaries.

http://www.jackals-forge.com/mayaarchive.htm

Heres a blood vessel shot from his site.

http://www.jackals-forge.com/bodystory/blood_s3.jpg

SeanL

07-26-2003, 09:08 PM

Joel, thanks for the link.

I'm going to post a couple links here of people's med-sci work that I think is particularly remarkable:

Drew Berry
(this link is an animation of cells)

http://www.wehi.edu.au/education/wehi-tv/movies/CSF/stems_in_blood.html

Lawrence Fields/Jillian Rose
Phleschbubble Productions

http://www.phleschbubble.com

Neither use C4D, but I think that just means they've been nice enough to leave that up to us...

Hope these links are new/inspirational to people.

Sean

JoelOtron

07-26-2003, 09:55 PM

WOW!!!

Thanks for the links--hadnt seen those b4.

JoelOtron

07-27-2003, 01:37 AM

Found these images:

http://www.mta.ca/~jehrman/blood.htm

chikega

07-27-2003, 03:57 PM

Wow - look at all these links! Ah yes, Jeff Johnson - he's a good example of an excellent self-taught medical illustrator/animator. And he happens to use C4D :) I believe Alec Syme and he have the same rep or maybe he's gone out on his own now.

And of course, Morris's work is unprecedented. Very clean and exceptional shading work done in Maya/Renderman.

Another animation you should see, large download 32MB, but well worth it is. It's got a grittier feel than Morris's work - but probably the best "medical animation" I've ever seen and it was actually made for an independent musical video. Matt Drummond is part of a band, "not the question". Really, check it out, if you haven't seen it before - a must see - it blew me away the first, second and third time I saw it.

http://www.electricimage.com/images/gallery/tv_movie/microbel_invasion.jpg

chikega

07-27-2003, 04:06 PM

Mmmm ... can't seem to copy a direct link ... so check it out on Electric Image's site, there are several by Matt Drummond but "Microbel_invasion" is his best video:

http://www.electricimage.com/community/gallery_tv_film2.html

P.S. Joel, I like the shading you've done on the WBC - very sweet. And your RBC's have an SSS quality to them which is a nice touch.

JoelOtron

07-27-2003, 04:53 PM

That's funny--that was actually the next link I was gonna post :)

Matt Drummond's stuff is pretty amazing. I first learned about him a few months ago on postforum. Its a great reel too in terms of editing. Very nice cuts and good choice of music.

SeanL

07-27-2003, 08:05 PM

Yes, Jeff Johnson, Matt Drummond, Richard Morris are great. No Question (no pun intended).

They are always the ones people post links to which was why I posted those two 'unknown' groups (About now someone will say, 'What about Bear at Wombat Interactive?' Here is his site: http://www.wombatinteractive.com).

Be sure to see 'Respirocyte' and 'Retinal implant' movies at Pleschbubble (movies-image with RBCs and purple sphere - below click same image or eye image)

Sean

JoelOtron

07-28-2003, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by chikega
Mmmm ... can't seem to copy a direct link ... so check it out on Electric Image's site, there are several by Matt Drummond but "Microbel_invasion" is his best video:

http://www.electricimage.com/community/gallery_tv_film2.html

P.S. Joel, I like the shading you've done on the WBC - very sweet. And your RBC's have an SSS quality to them which is a nice touch.

Hey--didnt cstch this tidbiot util now---That was for a music video???!!!

i thought it was for a documentary on parasites? Thats awesome if all tha work was done for a music video. I'd like to see how he pulled off a lot of those effects. Back when I was using EI, I would never thought of getting such realistic looking shots---but of course that has a lot to do with the user.

Thanks for the complement. I hink he SSS look was a result of a toned back wide fresnel in the luminosity channel and adding the Highlight post effect, turned down low. It added a subtle glow to the cells.