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Infinity3d4life
07-22-2003, 11:04 PM
I have been diving deeply into celshading lately, and while i'm getting the hang of it pretty well, I really HATE the way the shadows look on my characters when they are moving.. Moving shadows.. That takes away from the whole 2d illusion that i am trying to create.. If you look at the new Spiderman MTV show they have alot of what i think are ugly shadows on there characters when they are in motion.. Is there away to eliminate these?? I think my celshade looks very good, but those shadows are CRAP..

Shade01
07-22-2003, 11:08 PM
Got something we could see?

If you don't want any shadows, just get rid of the darkest color zones, or make it the same color.

Celshader
07-23-2003, 12:11 AM
Originally posted by Infinity3d4life
I have been diving deeply into celshading lately, and while i'm getting the hang of it pretty well, I really HATE the way the shadows look on my characters when they are moving.

The smoother the geometry, the cleaner the shadows will look. Unwanted/unplanned bumps and dents in your model will hurt your chances of getting clean shadows...and clean "inks."

Infinity3d4life
07-23-2003, 01:11 AM
I have this little clip,
it's 997 kb in size, and it's just a character rotating around, I just don't like the way the shadows fall on him, but maybe it's supposed to be like this? Oh by the way the clip was encoded to Mpeg so that i could transfer it on to my DVD-R.. hope it plays for ya..



RightClickAndSave (http://home.ma.rr.com/infinityfilmz/cel2.mov)

Celshader
07-23-2003, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Infinity3d4life
I have this little clip,
it's 997 kb in size, and it's just a character rotating around, I just don't like the way the shadows fall on him, but maybe it's supposed to be like this? Oh by the way the clip was encoded to Mpeg so that i could transfer it on to my DVD-R.. hope it plays for ya..



RightClickAndSave (http://home.ma.rr.com/infinityfilmz/Cel3.mpg)

It won't play on my machine. I don't have the codec that you used. :sad:

Infinity3d4life
07-23-2003, 02:19 AM
I will redo it and post again... OOps..

Fasty
07-23-2003, 02:23 AM
Damn crawling shadows! I think lighting has a lot to do with it, but I don't know what else to do in these situations :shrug:

Infinity3d4life
07-23-2003, 02:32 AM
I have reuploaded it in quicktime format, i used the sorenson 3 codec.. Hope that works for ya..

RightClickAndSave (http://home.ma.rr.com/infinityfilmz/cel2.mov)

peterpro
07-23-2003, 04:10 AM
what are you using to shade with?
cel shader or besm?

note that if you play with diffuse values you will control the banding on the character - this might be helpful in controlling the way SHADOWS fall on a character allowing more or less coverage without having to move or adjust the light.

=)

http://www.digitaltreats.com/animation/nascar
is an example of some cel shading i've done.


hi jen

Celshader
07-23-2003, 08:38 AM
Originally posted by Infinity3d4life
I have reuploaded it in quicktime format, i used the sorenson 3 codec.. Hope that works for ya..

RightClickAndSave (http://home.ma.rr.com/infinityfilmz/cel2.mov)

Celshader plug-ins simplify the shading on a character. What do you want the shadows to do?

If you want them to look curvier, try swapping out the direct light for a spotlight.

If you want them to look less erratic, smooth over every possible contour on the character so that the light falls on 100% geometric volumes.

If you want them to represent detailed anatomy, make sure the character's anatomy's accurate.

Also try angling the light so that it's at a right angle to the direction of the camera. This will give you harsh lighting in OpenGL, but it can look fine when everything gets celshaded.

Infinity3d4life
07-23-2003, 01:58 PM
Thanks everyone.. I will try some of the things you suggested... CelShader: What i'm referring to is just the way the shadows kinda crawl over the objects geometry, it gives too much illusion of a 3d IMO.. I guess maybe just because of the movement or maybe i should just illuminate the shadows all together and just make him a flat shaded character.. I looked at your Kara clip and thats the look that i want for my character....

Facial Deluxe
07-23-2003, 04:38 PM
Mmm, I don't see much trouble in this anim.
It's al related to the way you're lighting your character.
Also, that kind of typical 3D rotation of char, will always IMHO give a 3D feelings.
Try to animate him in a more manga way, and you should be able to "forget" the 3D :)

Celshader
07-23-2003, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Infinity3d4life
...maybe i should just illuminate the shadows all together and just make him a flat shaded character.. I looked at your Kara clip and thats the look that i want for my character....

Well, she's not flat-shaded in the clip; she does have extreme shadows, though. There are two ways to get the shadows to cover more of a model's surface; either tweak the lighting so that it falls at an extreme angle, or increase the Max of the "shadow" zones so that they cover more of the character.

Kara has this going for her -- she has a "simple" body in terms of geometric volumes. Her neck is a perfect cylinder; her arms, legs, fingers, hair tufts, ponytail and torso come close to looking like tapered cylinders. Her head is the most convoluted piece of geometry on her body, but I still tried to make it as smooth and dent-free as possible.

Here's a version of the elf-girl that Bernard Brown built and rendered without celshading; you can see a bit more of the design here:
http://forums.newtek.com/discus/messages/2/23542.html

Kara's not immune to 3D shadows, though. Here's a 3D-turnaround here:
http://www.celshader.com/gallery/kara/kara02.mov

It doesn't show as much on the taekwondo clip, because she changes her shape/pose on every frame. It also helps that she moves more like a hand-drawn character in that clip than like a 3D model on a turntable. ;)

peterpro
07-23-2003, 10:59 PM
Infinity3d4life


so check it out, this may help with the shadows.

I assume the skin is one surface.

Goto that specific skin surface - and play with the diffuse value.

This will specfically lessen or greaten the amount of interataction by the color banding, which when combined with shadows creates that crawl effect.

see if varying the diffuse max or min solves the problem.

but i think flattening out the colors was a good recommendation.
and thats partially done with screwing around with diffuse values.
or limiting the bands in celshader

if you like.
create a version with enveloped max and min diffuse values across your characters skin and just observe the result.

=)

timinator
07-24-2003, 08:23 AM
Lighting has most to do with how and where the shadows fall.....try using a 3 point lighting rig or at least change the angle of the light you have now...but at the same time the rotating animation is going to shadows falling as the model turns regardless of lighting, but you can lighten the shadows with "fill" lights.

peterpro
07-24-2003, 09:08 AM
you can lighten shadows with the shadow color base too =)

Celshader
07-24-2003, 09:38 AM
Originally posted by timinator
Lighting has most to do with how and where the shadows fall.....try using a 3 point lighting rig or at least change the angle of the light you have now...but at the same time the rotating animation is going to shadows falling as the model turns regardless of lighting, but you can lighten the shadows with "fill" lights.

Hm. I don't use 3-point lighting for celshaded characters. I use only one light for a celshaded character/model.

3-point lighting for non-celshaded characters looks fabulous, but 3-point lighting for a celshaded character can result in no shading on that character. :D

$0.02

vbk!!!
07-24-2003, 12:36 PM
i tried a celshade render with 2 distant light. One with shadow on
i put the ambient intensity to and the luminosity of the model to 50 %

the image base is like that

http://vbk-451.net/anim/m02.jpg


i made my cellshade without Supercelshader because i don't like put number all the time :p

but with gradient i obtained a good result i think

http://vbk-451.net/anim/m08.jpg

the edges are a mix of the basic edges of lightwave's object's property and a little gradient in the diffuse channel.

what do you think about a 2 distant lights solution.

peterpro
07-24-2003, 01:25 PM
i think the color tones should be closer in match.

the guy's head is super shiny =) like mr clean.

if you make the spec color closer to the skin, i think it might look more natural.

Infinity3d4life
07-24-2003, 02:22 PM
hey some cool tips and ideas here.. I too only use a one light setup for my celshading,..
I think the problem is just that i have the character doing a 360 turntable rotation like some of you have pointed out to me..

With some animation on him, and maybe some diffuse channel tweaking i might be able to eliminate some of those crawling shadows.. I might be able to up something new today just to see how it looks..

Again thanks for your help..

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