Million dollar question about modeling

[Justame2002]

hi nexgirl, the problem with using booleans is that it can make a mess of the topology, since the technique has come a long way i believe nowadays you've got options that allow for "clean booleans" (i.e topology), it's not really hard to model any boolean like results by hand though, especially if you're doing allot of hardsurface modeling, also depends on the final result you're going for, try to work in quads as much as possible if you use any other polys you could put them at places where deformation doesn't occure as much, these things shouldn't push or hold back your creativity though, so yes it's acceptable, keeping topology in mind, but it's also possible to model by hand, anyways i hope that helps..!

[phix314]

It really comes down to what you're using it for. There's always rules to how something should be done, but it wont kill you if it's not. If you dont have quads, your model will still render.

Its just that quads are easily smoothed, unwrapped, and animated. I'm watching a video series now (to be unnamed) but its the messiest mesh I've ever seen. Bevels on top of booleans on top of more bevels. Does it work? Yes it does. Does it animate? Yes it does. Is it ideal? Who knows but them.

In the end, do what works! CG isnt about sticking to every rule to a T. It's about cheating gracefully ;)

[danlefeb]

It really comes down to what you're using it for.


In the end, do what works! CG isnt about sticking to every rule to a T. It's about cheating gracefully ;)

QFA. I do a lot of hard surface modeling and I use booleans quite often for a simple solution to strange shapes in a still render. It gets the job done and if its not going to be rigged or animated I don't usually have to worry about bad deformations that will never occur.

Do I use booleans when I need to rig and animate something? Generally if it's an area that will deform I try to avoid them. If it's an area that I know will never deform (which is pretty easy to tell when you're dealing with hard models), I usually don't have to worry about "the rule of quads".

[nexgirl]

Thanks for your reply guys, i find it hard to model free hand "dragging out edges etc" because when i go to smooth my mesh is always lumpy bumpy, which is a pain, sometimes you cant always get quads with meshes especially if its a complex shape, like a half star/circle, just would be pretty impossible to get all quads.

i mainly deal with circles in meshes as they come up offen in my projects, i always manage to get the sides connected "8 sided circle" but then when it comes to more than one circle on one flat side and a different number on the other, its very hard to get everything quaded up, even though it wont make a difference on a flat surface, but still what if i wanted to do it on a curved surface, how would you cut holes in it and keep it all connected?

check this link http://www.3dtotal.com/team/Tutorials_3/making_of_airship_station/airship_station01.asp this is a pure example of not having everything quadded, but still looks fantastic.

[SKeller]

Besides everything that has already been said, you can use booleans to cut a hole, for exemple, and then just fix the mess in the mesh by welding the vertices. This turns to be very annoying if your mesh already has a higher polygon count, so i generally do this with a low poly mesh and smooth it later.

[Piflik]

'All Quads' shouldn't be followed too strictly. It is acceptable to have some tris in your mesh. Just be sure to keep them away from parts of the mesh that are deforming. Sometimes a carefully placed tri can even make your model behave better...

Now, where's my million dollars?

[nexgirl]

thanks for your replys again :) this has settled my head.

oh heres your million dollars
http://media.photobucket.com/image/million%20dollars/billyp_2008/OneMillionDollars.jpg
http://media.photobucket.com/image/million%20dollars/billyp_2008/OneMillionDollars.jpg
http://media.photobucket.com/image/million%20dollars/billyp_2008/OneMillionDollars.jpg

[eldee]

it's worth noting (and emphasizing) that it DOES all depend on what you're modeling, and what it will be used for. The example you posted is a hard-surface mechanical model, which will rarely (if ever) be modeled in all-quads, especially if it's modeled for smoothing. There are certain corners that will not smooth correctly unless they are left as ngons, for example.

However, if you're modeling for articulation, ie- a humanoid character with a lot of organics, NGons and tris can cause a lot of pinching and artifacts when rendering. You can't always avoid tris even in a situation like this, and in those cases it's all about putting tris where the shearing or pinching can actually work to your advantage, such as to emphasize a crease or fold in skin or clothing.

It's all about the right tool for the job, but to show a little bias toward technique- I have never needed to use a boolean... ever. If you're experienced (or even a fast learner) doing a 'boolean' type operation by hand is actually faster in almost every case. For really complex shapes, I usually start out with a spline and create my mesh from there. Personal preference really, but I have always found booleans to be crash-inducing topology devastators.

[newellteapot]

it's worth noting (and emphasizing) that it DOES all depend on what you're modeling, and what it will be used for. The example you posted is a hard-surface mechanical model, which will rarely (if ever) be modeled in all-quads, especially if it's modeled for smoothing. There are certain corners that will not smooth correctly unless they are left as ngons, for example.

I agree with all the rest you are saying, but not with this. I think mechanical/hard surface items can be all quads or nearly and smooth just fine.

anyway, just my two cents :)

[eldee]

When I get home I'll post an image and I want to see how you'd do it with all quads :)

if you can do it, I'll give you an internet high-five because I would love to know heheh

[ArtisticEndeavors]

When I get home I'll post an image and I want to see how you'd do it with all quads :)

if you can do it, I'll give you an internet high-five because I would love to know heheh

He never said anything about it being done with only quads, he literally said:

all quads or nearly When did "nearly all quads" become "all quads"? To add to the thought though, and not that im an expert on it or anything at all, but an ngon still triangulates soooo any 3d model made with ngons can be made without ngons, this is easily seen when using blender (which doesnt support ngons). Now would it be harder...probably...but thats a different thread entirely. Can it be made with all quads? Well technically nothing can be made with all quads as everything is made up of triangles. (ok im done being an asshat lol)

[nexgirl]

all i wanted to know is how to do it, when it comes to making complex shapes i struggle to get that shape, when i start cutting moving etc, i end up with just a messy lumpy mesh, now i have searched for tutorials and have come up with a few but none that go passed the basics of hard surface modeling, simple shapes... damn i cant even find a dvd i have to pay for that explains this stuff, if anyone knows any dvds that explain how to do this "preferably within 3dsmax" id be greatful.

[Decency]

3D Palace has a lot of hard surface modeling DVD's, they are excellent but if I learned anything from them it was that modeling with quads is a recommendation, not a requirement.

I am doing hard surface mechanical modeling at work right now, and I am trying my best to keep my meshes quads. That being said, if I run into a situation where I need a triangle or N'gon, I don't lose much sleep over it. :)

[nexgirl]

so would it be wise if possible to put these ngons on a flat surface or somewhere where it wont be visiable much so avoid any bad smoothing?

[Decency]

Post removed:)

[eldee]

He never said anything about it being done with only quads, he literally said:

No, I read his post and fully understand what he meant, but apparently you didn't read mine.. I literally said:

hard-surface mechanical model, which will rarely (if ever) be modeled in all-quads [...]
There are certain corners that will not smooth correctly unless they are left as ngons, for example.

tada.. and it's true, there are certain complex joints that do not smooth properly without A) tons of edges (in other words a subdivided bevel*, which defeats the purpose of what we're talking about here), or B) an Ngon. Like I said though, I may be wrong and maybe they CAN be done with all quads, so I'll post my example at some point to see if it's possible. I'm not being skeptical, because I'd honestly like to know- but from my experience, some joints need an NGon. 'nuff said.

* on the note of subdivided bevels- yes, you can subdivide your mesh and all ngons and tris become quads, this is modeling 101. But you also increase your polycount, which is wasteful for something that already works. It's not a practical solution (because it's not something you would do in a production environment), so I discount it in this situation.

edit: don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to start/continue an argument.. we're all basically saying the same thing when it all boils down.

[Psyk0]

all i wanted to know is how to do it, when it comes to making complex shapes i struggle to get that shape, when i start cutting moving etc, i end up with just a messy lumpy mesh, now i have searched for tutorials and have come up with a few but none that go passed the basics of hard surface modeling, simple shapes... damn i cant even find a dvd i have to pay for that explains this stuff, if anyone knows any dvds that explain how to do this "preferably within 3dsmax" id be greatful.

This is all i needed to get me started:
http://digitalapprentice.net/Community/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=67&Itemid=154&mosmsg=Item+successfully+saved.

[gonkdroid]

When I get home I'll post an image and I want to see how you'd do it with all quads :)

if you can do it, I'll give you an internet high-five because I would love to know heheh

picture please ;)

[eldee]

picture please ;) I forgot when I got home, it's my first priority for the morning though ;)

[eldee]

I'm not saying it's impossible to achieve these results with all quads, just that I haven't found a way. With this method it's clean, easy, and the mesh size is kept under control.

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/2699/ngoncorners.jpg

[nexgirl]

thats exactly what im talking about i saw that on the digital apprentice site, even for him whos a good modeler if you noticed he stopped and started that same area about 5 times but he finally figured out how to achieve it without pintching, thats all well and dandy, but im on about how to create complex shapes, shapes that morph into several shapes on the same geomatry.

how important is it to model from references anyways, i know its a big help but i was going to model a car, but i just get completly stuck when it comes to what goes where on the blue print, then when i smooth its lumpy, really stressful lol.

[eldee]

cars are pretty tough at first, the trick I've found is to use as little geometry as possible to achieve the form you're looking for. it's important to use reference in order to be accurate, but I'm not a huge fan of using an image as a background plane and modeling directly on top of it.. distortion from the camera can actually make things a little harder for you than they need to be. Blueprints are okay though, since everything is orthographic anyway.