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View Full Version : Interesting thread over there at the Newtek forums :D


milqman
07-20-2003, 06:31 PM
http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8266

DigiLusionist
07-20-2003, 10:39 PM
The thread would be far more interesting if Lee would stop minimizing the input from long time users as the shrill dogma of a very few uninformed morons.

The irony of his fallacious reasoning have left me with no further interest in participating in the NT forum. And, if the future of LW is now being heavily influenced by his views, as he likes to mention in his posts, then I can only say, "Oh, the humanity..."

fez
07-21-2003, 12:01 AM
I think Lee is good-humored and humble and doing his best to defend the flagship. After all, Lightwave IS how he makes his ends meet (assuming he is not independently filthy rich). Having said that...

My expectations were way too high after two years. No doubt. I was expecting more. I was expecting next generation not nifty new hacks. I hope the Siggraph showing will be so badass it makes a fool of me but I gotta say I am not quite as excited about the future today as I was yesterday.

fez
07-21-2003, 12:06 AM
Sorry for the pessimistic post. I am just dissapointed that they did not integrate and irritated that I may have to continue my daily fight with the HUB. I'll get over it.

Ahem. Go Newtek go!

LNT
07-21-2003, 12:11 AM
I am happy to hear that there will be hard body dynamics included..and other tools sound worth the upgrade

I dont see how people keep hoping for modeler/layout integration when the copyright clearly makes this impossible

CTRL+X
07-21-2003, 12:27 AM
Thats right, they can only learn to play together better!!!!

Kvaalen
07-21-2003, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by fez
Sorry for the pessimistic post. I am just dissapointed that they did not integrate and irritated that I may have to continue my daily fight with the HUB. I'll get over it.

Ahem. Go Newtek go!

When you say daily fight with the HUB, do you mean that you want both apps in to one, or better comunication between the two?

If it's the intergration that you want, well I'm sorry to say but it looks like there are more people that want them seperate (like me). :hmm:

But cheer up, one of the features is:

- New character setup workflow that avoids going back and forth between modeler and layout

I don't know how exactly but it should make your suffering less. :thumbsup:

fez
07-21-2003, 12:39 AM
I hear that all the time but I am not sure I have heard it from a Newtek official. Who knows, maybe Newtek snatched Modeler up in the legal scuffle with Luxology. The HUB is a form of integration, albeit a really bad one. Since the release of 6, users have been at times viciously vocal about the HUB's many shortcomings. Layout in 8 still has the same stupid little "Modeler" button cramping the upper right corner.

Finkster
07-21-2003, 12:44 AM
Am I lucky to have not experienced any Hub problems in my short time using LW? What are the common problems encountered?
Cheers.

Mattoo
07-21-2003, 01:03 AM
I also have never had any real probs with the HUB.

Occasionally it has lost connection with the one of the apps, but it's been a very long while since that happened.

SplineGod
07-21-2003, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist
The thread would be far more interesting if Lee would stop minimizing the input from long time users as the shrill dogma of a very few uninformed morons.

The irony of his fallacious reasoning have left me with no further interest in participating in the NT forum. And, if the future of LW is now being heavily influenced by his views, as he likes to mention in his posts, then I can only say, "Oh, the humanity..."
I think maybe youre being a little hard on the guy. The whole "shrill dogma" thing is a bit melodramatic. :)
Ive been following the thread and I cant say that I would agree that Lee was minimizing anyones input.

fez
07-21-2003, 02:01 AM
I'm sorry to piss on Newtek's party. I should have held off until Siggraph. I just couldn't help myself after seeing that little "Modeler" button.

The Hub crashes on me all the time with heavy scenes. Two of the machines have 2 gigs ram and still crash regularly when trying to perform HUB updates. However, my issues are not so much with the stability as with the performance and functionality of the HUB.

When tweaking an endomorph in Modeler would it be useful to see the mesh simultaneously update in Layout?

Would it be useful to use Modeler tools to deform an object relative to a particular Layout camera? How about for you folks tweaking models to match background plates?

Would it be useful to have a Layout camera in a Modeler viewport? Or a modeler camera in Layout? Hell, how about a floating Camera window, like T2's ToasterVision?

Would it be useful to tweak an Alpha Weight-Map in Modeler and watch Viper update automatically?

I think these features would be useful to me and at least a few other users. It would really unify Lightwave's workflow IMO, not to mention add functionality present in many other professional packages...which means less bitching from folks jumping onto the Lightwave ship :).

terryford
07-21-2003, 02:13 AM
I was also hoping for (but not really expecting) integration. IMHO the hub is a kludge, always has been, always will be. I think it was intended to make it easier for 3rd party apps (like 3D paint or 3D file converters) to hook into LightWave in a non OS-specific way, but to date I don't think any non-Newtek app uses it (unless you consider Aura non-Newtek).

I'm curious as to whether Newtek have obtained the rights to Modeler in their settlment with Luxology. Anybody going to the Newtek party want to check the About box and let us know? :)

The recent degeneration of some of the threads here and on the Newtek forums seems to have created something of a backlash againt people expressing legitimte concerns/criticisms, I don't think such critical posts should be dismissed as whinges or pointless dissention. I happen to agree with some of those "negative" posts, although perhaps some could be expressed a little more diplomatically (by avoiding use of the word "sucks" for example :))

I've been using LW since version 5.6, prior to this release each upgrade was a no-brainer for me, but this time round the decision is not so easy. While I'm encouraged by the scant info released about v8.0 so far, I've yet to be completely sold, there are a few Modeler inhancments that I'd like to see before I commit.

Anyhoo, time for me to bow out of the discussions I think, and wait to see what the final release holds...


Regards,
Terry

DigiLusionist
07-21-2003, 02:13 AM
Sorry if I misquoted him, Larry.

Lee:
"The people who think Matt's interface is the obvious only choice are just being louder and more shrill. That's too bad, because it probably won't help Matt's interface gain adherents - it's a design, not a religion. Like Karl Marx said, "I hate Marxists."

SplineGod
07-21-2003, 02:16 AM
Fez,
Probably everyone at Newtek and on here would agree. Theyre great suggestions. I know theyre being and have been looked at.
In the end (at least for RIGHT now) the powers that be have to decide which of all your suggestions and those of many others can be implemented in a timely (close to siggraph) manner.
There will be more updates as well after the initial release of 8.0.
It also hasnt been fully revealed whats in store for 8. Makes you wish for an "8" ball :)

SplineGod
07-21-2003, 03:26 AM
Originally posted by DigiLusionist
Sorry if I misquoted him, Larry.

Lee:
"The people who think Matt's interface is the obvious only choice are just being louder and more shrill. That's too bad, because it probably won't help Matt's interface gain adherents - it's a design, not a religion. Like Karl Marx said, "I hate Marxists."
Not a problem. :) Youre in San Diego right? I hope you get to come by the free LW training down there or to the Newtek party. :)
I think Matts interface stuff has some good things but its a drastic change. Id like to see something will allow people to kind of ease into it.

E_Moelzer
07-21-2003, 03:26 AM
To sum up a few things that have been discussed here:
The new features look great IMHO. And these features allone are worth the upgrade- price.
These are only a small part of the things we will see in LW 8.0.
A lot of features are not in that list, maybe because they dont know whether they will make it into LW 8.0, or whether they will be part of another update that will come out shortly after that.
I also already know some stuff that we are going to see in LW 8.x and I can say that this will be another update worth looking forward to (maybe just as big as LW 8.0) and some of the new features in there will blow away the competition big time!
Lee announced that there will be a presentation of what NT has in store for LW 8.x and later at Siggraph. Make sure you get to see that one, you wont regret it!
This also shows that NT has a development- roadmap (for the first time) and a vision for the future of LW, which is great IMHO!
I can only repeat, what I always said in the past: The future of LW is looking bright! The new dev- team at NT is doing a real great job!

Concerning a fully integrated Layout and Modeler: This would require a complete rewrite which would take much longer than one year, even longer than 2 years. The average computergame has a dev- time of 2 - 4 years now. So comparing that to the dev- time for LW 8.0 you can see why we dont get a rewrite for LW 8.0. This means that even without the legal dispute, that Lee mentioned in a post in the NewTek- discussions, taking away a lot of dev- time, there has never been a realistic chance for that.
I have said that multiple times in the past (you remember?) , but people obviously ignored that and rather believed into rumors created by someone who has obviously no(!) idea of software- development.
In addition there are people like me that are not too sure about integration into one app.

Matts interface- design: It is not the way everyone wants the new LW to look like (me in example). To me it is just too confusing and taking up too much screen- space. There are many others sharing my oppinion, but we just dont cry that loud.
CU
Elmar

Shade01
07-21-2003, 03:42 AM
speed increases. Please say that there are significant speed increases in Layout.

DigiLusionist
07-21-2003, 04:15 AM
Those of us who have worked in game dev cycles know that it takes two or more years to complete a game not because of the time it takes to develop the codie alone. But rather, it is because of the time it takes to create the art. Also, it is because of the time it takes to develop new tech that meets the restrictions presented by online development or by game platform coding issues.

Therefore, comparing game dev time to 3D graphics dev time is not a comparable analogy.

And if folks on these forums would stop referring to those of us who don't follow their lines of thinking as "crying," being "loud," or "uninformed," (and these are the actual adjectives and verbs used to characterize our posts) I wouldn't feel like bailing on these forums.

I don't know what the heck has happened in the LW community, but even reasonable posts of dissenting opinion are met with non-sequiter arguments, and ridicule by the old guard who make subtle slams, and who then backpedal with insincere apologies. Hell, even a number of the newbies pipe in with derision (and they don't know what the hell their spouting out about)!

I am losing hope of things going back to the way they were before the whole NT/Lux threads surfaced a while back. Meaning, I want to be able to express my POV about LW, and to have my POV respected as just that, my POV.

At this point, I refuse to respect the POV of anyone who simply does not respect mine.

Some of us don't like the interface mock ups shown, and we stated why. What followed was the sort of nonsense I have grown disgusted by, and thus, this response.

E_Moelzer
07-21-2003, 04:30 AM
Hmm, I think that game- dev and 3d- software- development is very well comparable.
I have never heard that the art took much longer than the coding. The balance of game- design is a different issue though and this can be applied to - 3d- software- development as well.
CU
Elmar

DigiLusionist
07-21-2003, 04:37 AM
I should qualify my statement by saying that for "massively multi-player online" gaming, the content development is primarily the reason for the huge amount of the time needed. Sorry for making a blanket statement, Elmar.

E_Moelzer
07-21-2003, 05:20 AM
Hey Digilusionist!
I did not want to start a fight here.
I just wanted to make clear that people had wrong expectations based upon rumors and that it is the mistake of the people spreading rumors like these, that some people are a bit disappointed now.
Me for my part I am not. I always knew that this would not be a full rewrite (a shame to few believed me).

I have never done a full- feature- game, but only a few smaller custom games myself. I can clearly remember that the coding took much longer to do, than the art.
In fact I had done all the art by myself allone and the 2 programmers were still working on the code by then. I actually had to redo some parts a few times because of code- changes and still was ready with my part before the code was finished.
One should also add that the engine already existed and only had to be fixed to meet new demands, whereas I had to start from scratch with the art. One reason for this might have been that we relied on LW as a level- editor, which took away a lot of work from me. On the other hand most game- developers need to write level- editors as well which should make programming- times even longer.

Right now we are doing something, that could be defined more as software- development (LW- plugins and custom LW- versions for special needs). There is little art involved with that, but the coding takes a lot of time.
My part is mostly doing UI - design and interface- programing.
My feeling is that one reason for the rather long dev- time we have had for our latest plugin, is the pretty crappy SDK of LW. But even without that, we have spend a lot of time refining and recoding a huge plugin, that could very well be a standallone app too.
One reason for long dev- times is, that a huge project like that evolves over the dev- time. The demands change a bit and there happen shifts in focus all the time.
Sometimes it is very hard to predict what a certain feature or design will look like and how it will affect workflow until you have actually coded and and tried it out.
I.e, we had to create an OpenGl- preview for something and I had a few concepts for how it could be implemented into LW. Even though we are not totally unexperienced in this, we had very little idea of which one would work and look best. We had to try out all 3 of them (which are completely different) until we found the best solution. As it is with Murphys law: it is always the last one...

Now, even though our plugin is only a small piece of software compared to the entire LW, it took us a signifficant amount of time to get to the point where we are right now.
Given, we are only a small team and we dont have access to LWs core, but still I think I have a pretty good impression of what rewriting the entire LW would mean.
You know, this would not only mean merging Layout and Modeler, but also new basic concept, new SDK, new UI- design and many other things that have to be considered and that people tend to forget about.
Then you have everything together and probably find flaws in the basic concept (that you can only see when having everything together and actually working with it)that throw you back again.
This is also why I am pretty skeptical towards Matt's UI- design. It might look great on paper, but you wont find out what it really is to work with it until you have spent a few days (and nights) actually doing work with it.
Sorry Matt dont want to make your work down. I really like the look of it and it feels like a piece of art, but UI- design has little to do with just great looks.
CU
Elmar

jmcalpin
07-21-2003, 06:37 AM
It feels like there are more people standing on soap boxes than there are people sitting down to try to understand each other's point of view. Does no one have the time any more to talk or is all of this turning into grand standing and pontification for the sake of hearing yourself.

I thought the whole idea of a "forum" was to discuss each others points of view not to beat each other's POV into the ground as if it is some kind of game to be won. Actually I think there are alot of people with a I must win mentality that is slowly shifting the whole forum into me too mentality.

I've frequented shane g lines forum and there is none of this kind of thing going on. I have never heard people going I wish photoshop had painters brushes or illustrater needs X functions. People do the best they can new or pro and post it and get critiques, that's it.

Jason

DigiLusionist
07-21-2003, 07:00 AM
**stratching head**

Elmar, I wasn't in a fight with you. I merely apologized for making a blanket statement.

E_Moelzer
07-21-2003, 08:25 AM
Hey Digilusionist!
Sorry if it came through the wrong way. I meant that I wanted to apollogize if my post looked like I wanted to start a fight with anyone ;)
Thats what I meant.
Be happy and look forward to the next LW, thats all I want to say ;)
CU
Elmar

TRick
07-21-2003, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
...There will be more updates as well after the initial release of 8.0...

For most mentioned features I have plugins that are priced many times more then a LW update. For the moment 7.5 combined with these plugins is as solid as can be. I prefer a solid, competitive and complete 8.0 over a regularly feature-updated one, which certainly introduces new bugs and irregularities. Integrating things in LW would be a dream but I doubt this will happen without problems...on the other hand I think NT can not afford releasing buggy releases anymore...that surely would make a lot of people jump ship !!!

Regarding interface-design: Compared to other 3D-apps I think LW always had the simplest and cleanest "no bells and whistles" interface. Posting images of interfaces in which you want users to give input on color and button shape really is a very strange thing: I really can't think of a less important feature then this !!! Maybe this is just another attempt to start a huge 5000+ messages thread. Looking at the feature request area on the NT forum surely gives enough info for letting professional interface designers create some intelligent new 3D system everybody will be happy with...

SplineGod
07-21-2003, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by TRick
For most mentioned features I have plugins that are priced many times more then a LW update. For the moment 7.5 combined with these plugins is as solid as can be. I prefer a solid, competitive and complete 8.0 over a regularly feature-updated one, which certainly introduces new bugs and irregularities. Integrating things in LW would be a dream but I doubt this will happen without problems...on the other hand I think NT can not afford releasing buggy releases anymore...that surely would make a lot of people jump ship !!!

Regarding interface-design: Compared to other 3D-apps I think LW always had the simplest and cleanest "no bells and whistles" interface. Posting images of interfaces in which you want users to give input on color and button shape really is a very strange thing: I really can't think of a less important feature then this !!! Maybe this is just another attempt to start a huge 5000+ messages thread. Looking at the feature request area on the NT forum surely gives enough info for letting professional interface designers create some intelligent new 3D system everybody will be happy with...

I think its important to not read any more or less into the posts then what is asked. Newtek is asking because theyre genuinely interested. As far as a solid LW8 vs regular updates... I dont see the two as being mutually exclusive. :)

TRick
07-21-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
I think its important to not read any more or less into the posts then what is asked...

I was trying very hard...but I could not hold myself. Even if you put this in the largest bold type, there will be a lot of useless rant...

... Newtek is asking because theyre genuinely interested...

A noble thing...but COLOR and BUTTON SHAPE ?!?!?!

... As far as a solid LW8 vs regular updates... I dont see the two as being mutually exclusive. :)

As long as features are ADDITIVE, bugs will be removed, workflow stays the same, and ABSOLUTELY NO NEW BUGS will be introduced...YES. But looking at history (with all 3D apps) I really wonder. I'm looking at applications on what they and the available plugins offer at the moment I need them, not on what they MAY offer in due time. Software cost is only a small part in my final calculations but a big part in workflow and time. So jumping from one package to another, respecting acquaintance time, is easy. I can imagine that I'm not the average LW-user (I really do NOT care about UNDOS in Layout), but workflow, speed (SUPERFAST EXTREME AA) and stabilty should always be No.1 I only used 5.6c and 7.5a for this very reason. The only thing holding me back from jumping to s.th. MORE stable (maybe C4D ?!?) are some very important plugins and workflow issues.

Mike Pauza
07-21-2003, 05:39 PM
For those of you not following the cooresponding NewTek thread, it looks like they just hired the guy who wrote a lot of the current MD & particle code. Hopefully all the good suggestions we've given NewTek, will help them build us a much stronger and usable crop of physics based animation tools. I can't wait to see what they come up with.

-Mike Pauza

Facial Deluxe
07-21-2003, 05:42 PM
They should have hired you....

Mike Pauza
07-21-2003, 05:46 PM
Facial:

We talked about it, but I'm not a well rounded programmer...I only know the physics & computational stuff.:) Still, I might get some code in there if they take advantage of my help.

-Mike

Shade01
07-21-2003, 11:02 PM
I just wanted to remind everyone who thinks that Lightwave 8 may be underwhelming to remember that the true power of the current numbered version of Lightwave never came to be until the .5 release. I thought both Lightwave 6.5 and 7.5 were significant release updates that provided major functionality after the fact.

TRick
07-21-2003, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by Shade01
I just wanted to remind everyone who thinks that Lightwave 8 may be underwhelming to remember that the true power of the current numbered version of Lightwave never came to be until the .5 release. I thought both Lightwave 6.5 and 7.5 were significant release updates that provided major functionality after the fact.

...And 5.6...so when is 8.5 arriving ???

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