PDA

View Full Version : EIAS studying Modo


ediris
05-16-2009, 05:16 AM
Hi folks, while any of you share their opinions in how does Modo compares to EIAS?
I am very interested in Modo 402 since they have finally uploaded with some animations features.
What do you think about Modo upgrade value for money?
How well is their antialiased compare to C4D and EIAS?

Just so you know i do motion design and having Modo seems like the right way to go at the moment as i use OSX and not willing to change anytime soon. Currently i use C4D for motion design but the AR engine is not producing desirable renders.
How good is the GI in Modo?

Thanks guys, Edgard.

futagoza
05-16-2009, 09:00 AM
Hi Edgard,

While i canīt answer your questions yet, i can tell you that i switched from EIAS to modo last week. I would strongly suggest to download a copy of 302 and evaluate it.

Regards
Stefan

PaulS2
05-16-2009, 04:27 PM
I don't have a proper answer to your question but you can have my 2 cents.

Modo is really quite good but there are things which get in my way too often. The material system is very powerful but I dislike it just as much. Too busy and the flow is not right for me. I love the IPR..this is something which should be in ever 3D app and implemented as well.

I much prefer the look and feel of EI's rendering engine. Modo is fine but it feels like it's missing something...actually it feels like C4D's render in many ways. I think 401 looks very good and I'll upgrade.

I use EI for hi-res stills and for basic animation. Two things it excels in. It's procedurals are first class and it's ease of use is what I need for fast turn around.

Modo is a great app and I'm sure you'll enjoy it - growing company and community....depending on what your needs are I wouldn't give up on EI quite so soon. It still has a place and for some work, still untouchable.

ediris
05-16-2009, 04:44 PM
Animation and more animation is the key of what i need right now.Off course fast render times as today world clients are asking for more changes. Right now C4D is fun and at the same time i dislike it in many ways. I wish they could have a better render engine. But Modo feels like a bit clumsy. Everybody seems to love the interface quite similar to c4d but is not well organized.

I wouldnt give up EIAS but at the moment i am studying my options. I am a bit tired of the waiting game.At the same time i am waiting for Tesla to come out.

futagoza
05-16-2009, 05:11 PM
I must admit i love the interface and i know also if it would not fit my workflow i can happily customize the whole layout of modo to suite my needs, including keyboard shortcuts.

Well, about animation. Iīm no pro like you who needs it for MoGraph etc. but i know modo developes fast and it totally suits my needs should i do also animations in the future.

Regards
Stefan

manuel
05-17-2009, 12:29 PM
Well, that'll teach me to be vocal about Modo in the EIAS forums. Now people expect my opinion. :)

Anyway, I'm not an all round 3D artist, I don't even do this stuff professionally and I'm certainly not a mographer. So take everything I say with big chunks of salt.

Animation:
There's a simplicity and straightforwardness about the way EIAS works. Modo certainly feels more convoluted whilst achieving less. 401 may change all that. 302 wasn't really an animation release. Modo can however import .MDD's which works pretty flawlessly.

Rendering:
Not as noise-free as good old EIAS, but 401 is supposed to improve on that. Reflections can be grainy in 302, nothing you'd ever notice in broadcast, but if you push your nose up to the screen, you may miss Camera a bit. GI used to have problems with interiors, specially corners, not too sure how it's doing these days, I don't do interiors.

Sub surface scattering couldn't be easier to set up and it looks really good, much better than EIAS's IMO. Displacements are a joy to use, I know EIAS now has sea-level which is a good step in the right direction, but the ease of use in Modo still trumps it. Modo 401's fur looks really nice, much better than C4D's I think. And of course it's not just for hair. The motion-blurs in the 401 previews look pretty slick to me as does the depth-of-field.

Material system:
Lots of people don't seem to like it. Personally I like it a lot:

-It allows for layering like nothing else. You can for instance make a basic plastic material, apply it to 15 items in your scene, and then change the diffuse colour of each item individually. Change the reflectivity of the "master" plastic material and it changes in all 15 items. It makes it much easier to create a unified look in the materials throughout the scene I find.
- You can layer displacements in a way you can't even dream of in EIAS.
- If you want to give your clients two options, you can make two groups of materials. Simply switch them on and off like you switch layers in photoshop on and off. The IPR will show the results immediately.
- All layers can use photoshop layer modes: normal, multiply, screen, add, subtract...
- You can apply materials to items, individual polygons, or use vertexmaps to drive any parameter.
- Most of all, it's fun.

Other:
Like Paul said, the IPR is a complete game-changer. And 401 is supposed to improve it dramatically in terms of both speed and quality.

The Modo SDK has been promised for years. So far the only part of the SDK that's available to third party developers is for file I/O. So no third party shaders or any other plug-ins for now.

Phew, need a rest now

manu

ediris
05-17-2009, 04:34 PM
THANKS for your elaborated response. I am studying my options at the moment. It seems pretty dificult to change applications since i am used to EIAS and C4D but the GI in C4D is not given me any good results even when bumping the settings at its maximum.
Right now i use Mograph but i am sure it can be done with EIAS some how.Off course with many plug ins but i do not know how they work in v8 last time they were not working at all.
Thanks for your reply Manu.
Edgard

Phil Lawson
05-18-2009, 10:58 AM
Motion blur in 401 benefits from the extra AA samples and improved sampling that Allen added - which will give a cleaner blur over 302's implementation. Things like DOF also benefit from these changes.

manuel
05-18-2009, 11:11 AM
Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention. Modo doesn't give a good out-of-the-box experience for everybody. You find yourself having to go to VertexMonkey (http://www.vertexmonkey.com/) to download scripts that will shape Modo to your liking. The good thing is that you can do this, the bad thing is that you have to do it. Eg. the default behaviour for deleting polygons is that the vertices remain behind. It took me a while to notice this. The only way to get rid of these orphaned vertices is to run a mesh cleaning script which by default isn't part of Modo, you have to get it from VertexMonkey.

ctguitars
05-18-2009, 02:47 PM
... I am very interested in Modo 402 since they have finally uploaded with some animations features.

... Just so you know i do motion design and having Modo seems like the right way ... Currently i use C4D for motion design ...

Thanks guys, Edgard.

Hi Edgard,

A thing to clear up in your questions - ANIMATION, what type? You mention MOTION DESIGN. Are you talking of movement of solid objects via keyframing and the like OR / AND CHARACTER ANIMATION / IK / BONES?

Two different things to an extent. If its the latter then 4.01 is getting closer to what you are looking for. Where 3.02 has "Animation" - it is more for simple keyframing of what I would call solid objects. However 4.01 is introducing IK elements and related Channel modifiers. The best video to get a glimpse is here ( from the recent Animation Part 4 reveal ):

http://content.luxology.com/modo/401/video/animation_4/rich_hurrey_12111_bumPer_401Overview.mov

Looks like a full on production rig? Or so he says?

Aidan

ediris
05-18-2009, 05:31 PM
Is been pretty hard to find another 3d app(Mac Platform) compared with Camera, about Modo's rendering i am not to sure about it, i feel like having C4D rendering engine, i am talking about AR off course.Cant compare the richness of Camera, sorry Furgoza is just one opinion.

The new animation features in Modo are a bit clumsy IMOP. What i like is the integrated modeler and still as a dedicated modeler not having NURBS,mmm i do not know.

I donot need to model any characters just some hard surface bodies and a bit of that organic animation which EIAS lacks of.
I like the new features that 401 will bring to the application. Like animation modifiers,the easy of use IK but i will not jump right away. C4D keeps being strong up there as a motion graphic workhorse.
Together with EIAS i have everything i need at the moment.
Thanks to everyone.
Edgard

nielsss
05-19-2009, 07:01 AM
...
The new animation features in Modo are a bit clumsy IMOP. What i like is the integrated modeler and still as a dedicated modeler not having NURBS,mmm i do not know.

...

The only 3D package I know of that has decent Nurbs is Maya.
(Most people over here might not like that, but....)

Martin Kay
05-19-2009, 08:16 AM
THANKS for your elaborated response. I am studying my options at the moment. It seems pretty dificult to change applications since i am used to EIAS and C4D but the GI in C4D is not given me any good results even when bumping the settings at its maximum.
Right now i use Mograph but i am sure it can be done with EIAS some how.Off course with many plug ins but i do not know how they work in v8 last time they were not working at all.
Thanks for your reply Manu.
Edgard

What version of AR are you using? The current AR3 is clean (at the default settings mostly) and fast and not so different to Modo, although I think Modo's area shadows are more natural than c4ds.

Martin K

Martin Kay
05-19-2009, 08:20 AM
Oh, one more thing I forgot to mention. Modo doesn't give a good out-of-the-box experience for everybody. You find yourself having to go to VertexMonkey (http://www.vertexmonkey.com/) to download scripts that will shape Modo to your liking. The good thing is that you can do this, the bad thing is that you have to do it. Eg. the default behaviour for deleting polygons is that the vertices remain behind. It took me a while to notice this. The only way to get rid of these orphaned vertices is to run a mesh cleaning script which by default isn't part of Modo, you have to get it from VertexMonkey.

Modo has plenty 'out of the box' irritations- little things that are virtually impossible to solve unless you stumble on the solution by accident... I understand the manual has been re-written.
An amusing thing is that in most 3D apps lathing/revolving is a piece of cake- not so in Modo. It's not obvious how you are supposed to correctly go about it- the so called manual is useless.

Martin K

CG-IMAGE
05-19-2009, 01:56 PM
Currently i use C4D for motion design but the AR engine is not producing desirable renders...

but the GI in C4D is not given me any good results even when bumping the settings at its maximum...

...I much prefer the look and feel of EI's rendering engine. Modo is fine but it feels like it's missing something...actually it feels like C4D's render in many ways. I think 401 looks very good and I'll upgrade...[

Sorry, but for me it sounds you miss some knowledge of using the AR in the right way...

I donīt wanna sound harsh but we are using it everyday in our daily business and never got problems with it even with GI or to generate the right look.

With best regards,

Maurice

ediris
05-19-2009, 03:22 PM
Hi Maurice,
I havent send a file in the c4d forum and i have the problem resolved. Obviously bumping the settings to high quality gives you good results at a cost of timeframe.

We use it everyday as well just bumping the resolution settings you get pretty decent results while in Camera the only drawback is memory hungry but produces acceptable renders.
I have being using C4D for almost two years i am still learning it.

That is what is all about,right?

Thanks,Edgard.
Hungry for a NURBS affordable modeler such as Moi, maybe Tesla one of these days.

CG-IMAGE
05-19-2009, 03:58 PM
Hi Maurice,
I havent send a file in the c4d forum and i have the problem resolved. Obviously bumping the settings to high quality gives you good results at a cost of timeframe.

We use it everyday as well just bumping the resolution settings you get pretty decent results while in Camera the only drawback is memory hungry but produces acceptable renders.
I have being using C4D for almost two years i am still learning it.

That is what is all about,right?

Thanks,Edgard.
Hungry for a NURBS affordable modeler such as Moi, maybe Tesla one of these days.

Hi Edgard,

my point was that you talked about C4D and the AR in generall and not your problems while using it...

It dissapoints me if people talk bad about this and that app and never used it "real" you know what i mean? And then say you couldnīt get good results with it.

Greetz,

Maurice

ediris
05-19-2009, 08:22 PM
Ok Maurice, if i understand you wrong please correct me.
There is no problem in using C4D render but is just my lack of knowledge of the application , i am not trying to achieve any realistic results in terms of image. But what is reality?
Just saying that as Martin mentioned with the default settings works fine. But not for me,at the moment.
C4D is a real workhorse for motion graphics and that is what i am being paid to do.I am just trying to find about other possible tools that are worth my investment of time and money.
To master any app it takes time and effort and a lot of forum time. :thumbsup:

Edgard

Martin Kay
05-20-2009, 04:28 PM
Ok Maurice, if i understand you wrong please correct me.
There is no problem in using C4D render but is just my lack of knowledge of the application , i am not trying to achieve any realistic results in terms of image. But what is reality?
Just saying that as Martin mentioned with the default settings works fine. But not for me,at the moment.
C4D is a real workhorse for motion graphics and that is what i am being paid to do.I am just trying to find about other possible tools that are worth my investment of time and money.
To master any app it takes time and effort and a lot of forum time. :thumbsup:

Edgard

Hi Edgard, you still haven't made it clear which version of c4d GI you are using. The version prior to Vs11/AR3 was very slow and yes very low quality unless you bumped the settings up real high. This is not the situation with the latest version- which can very often, depending on nature of scene give more than acceptable results at the default settings. I'm not sure that I think the results are as good as Modo, but c4d is much faster for sure.

Up to this point hardly any GI work has been done with EI that anyone has seen. This is the problem with EI- the marketing is virtually non existant. This may change with Vs8.

Martin K

Phil Lawson
05-20-2009, 04:45 PM
Eg. the default behaviour for deleting polygons is that the vertices remain behind.

That is the default behaviour for remove which is assigned to the backspace key. The delete key will fire the command delete which will remove both polygon faces and vertices.

Cheers.

manuel
05-20-2009, 04:53 PM
Yes, I know. But the point is that most people will default to using the delete button. And in doing so, they will leave behind a whole lot of orphaned vertices.
Once you notice you have all these orphaned vertices, Modo doesn't offer a solution by default. The solution, the cleanup script, has to be downloaded from VertexMonkey.
That was the whole point of my post: Modo doesn't have a good out-of-the-box experience.

Phil Lawson
05-20-2009, 05:14 PM
...but that's just it - the delete key should remove all vertices every time - if it doesn't, then its a bug rather than an intended behaviour. Only the backspace key should keep vertices but remove faces.

manuel
05-20-2009, 05:41 PM
Ah, c**p. In my eagerness to get my point across, I wrote "delete" key when I meant "backspace". A lot of people default to using the backspace key and get very confused until someone helpfully points them in the right direction on the Modo forums. Phew...

futagoza
05-20-2009, 07:08 PM
Up to this point hardly any GI work has been done with EI that anyone has seen. This is the problem with EI- the marketing is virtually non existant. This may change with Vs8.

Martin K

To be excact, 4 images have been submitted to the gallery between end of October 2008 and the announcement of V8, if i remember correctly. One image was from V8 beta and one a V5 image, the other two i assume were V7. Not very much if you ask me.

Regards
Stefan

Martin Kay
05-20-2009, 08:46 PM
To be excact, 4 images have been submitted to the gallery between end of October 2008 and the announcement of V8, if i remember correctly. One image was from V8 beta and one a V5 image, the other two i assume were V7. Not very much if you ask me.

Regards
Stefan

Hmmm, I'm sure that there are images out there somewhere... trouble is EIAS is an animation program and those that want to do stills mostly will use other applications unless they are Paul S who makes good use of the procedural shader system. EI just has not kept up with developments that are available elsewhere. Vs8 brings some interesting new features, but it remains to be seen how Vs8 will be placed against its competiters, like c4d, Modo & Lightwave. I'm setting up some comparison scenes ready for when its available to download.

Martin K

ediris
05-21-2009, 01:35 AM
Hmmm, I'm sure that there are images out there somewhere... trouble is EIAS is an animation program and those that want to do stills mostly will use other applications unless they are Paul S who makes good use of the procedural shader system. EI just has not kept up with developments that are available elsewhere. Vs8 brings some interesting new features, but it remains to be seen how Vs8 will be placed against its competiters, like c4d, Modo & Lightwave. I'm setting up some comparison scenes ready for when its available to download.

Martin K

Same here Martin i am downloading the demo the thing is that their plug ins have become very unstable. There is a lot of questions mark if i could go that way.

For which version of AR is the latest AR3.For stills i am sure it works but not for animation with the default settings. I have done some nice things with it , in a very fast paced environment which is not possible with EIAS. Modo is got some nice features under the hood. Hopefully we can download the demos and compared.

Edgard

kevmo
05-21-2009, 04:46 AM
Hey everybody:

I haven't used EIAS in a long time and I can't really afford the upgrade at this time.
I will check out the trial when it is available.

My 2 sense on Modo:

It's a great app, at first the material system was very confusing, but now I'm much more comfortable with it - in some ways it reminds me of Master Materials in EI. The procedurals aren't as numerous as in EI. I have found them useful tho.

But the more I learn the more it makes sense, same with the modeling, a different approach to modeling, even different from Silo which I liked & used, which I initially learned SubD modeling on.

The BEST feature in Modo is the render preview window(s),
I just can't (I won't damn it!) live without it - THE coolest thing I've seen in a long time...


As far as the renders go, again, the more I learn the more it makes sense.
some things render fast, some things not so fast - a faster newer machine = faster renders.
yes there are ways to reduce grain etc.
The community forum & tutorials, is where you will get some fast answers on how to tweak
the system for faster test renders, fast opengl animation preview renders, and clean final renders.

I haven't done much modo animation but the few things I've tried, it seems ok for a first
try. The 401 update looks very interesting for animation.

I tried to do some render comparisons in the past but unfortunately couldn't get modo models into EI (some successes but I prefer to keep the hair on my head!)

Modo is an all on one solution compared to EI in my opinion. And every upgrade just gets better, I did the trial but I thought the price was steep for just a modeling app, I didn't buy it until v2 when they added the renderer.

I would strongly suggest investing in the training materials, search for any and all tutorials on the community forum (cristobal vila tuts very helpful), search for answers on the forum if you can't find an answer, someone will help you. Lux TV also has many tutorials.

One thing you will need if you try to use the OpenGL/3D painting/sculpting tools, is a good Video card.
on my 3 1/2 year old G5, 3D paint is unusable or if you must use, extremely painfully slow.
Luckily I also have a relatively new Laptop that is a joy to use opengl/3Dpainting.

Anyway, I think both apps are a good investment, EI and its plugins have paid for themselves and then some with the amount of work I've done.
No app is the end all be all, some better than others, ultimately what you are comfortable with.

I think also if you you put in some time in and learn modo, you will like it, and at the very least it will be another valuable tool in your toolbox.

I really like EI and Modo & I hope this release is successful, and hope for the best.
good luck-

that is all
(or too much:-)

PS: regarding the delete/backspace vertice issue, I thought it was bizarre thing to have but I've come to find out it is a feature and a useful one too. And there are many functions that are similar but once you learn there is a method to the madness (read-ask-learn) it makes sense.

Martin Kay
05-21-2009, 08:31 AM
Kevin, a good way to go from Modo to EI (if you have as you say Silo) is to save Modo as obj, open in Silo and save as fac. It works very well. You may need to watch smoothing on some objects if you open a whole scene at once. Obviously objects that are in SubD mode in Modo will need freezing.

Martin K

kevmo
05-21-2009, 01:27 PM
Hi Martin:

Yes, as I said I had some success, but it is a headache. I bought OBJ2fact which works nicely,
with Silo 1.4 good results, not so much with 2.1.

I just like having everything work in one package.

thanx
k!

manuel
05-21-2009, 02:03 PM
Kevin, a good way to go from Modo to EI (if you have as you say Silo) is to save Modo as obj, open in Silo and save as fac. It works very well. You may need to watch smoothing on some objects if you open a whole scene at once. Obviously objects that are in SubD mode in Modo will need freezing.

Martin K
I always used FBX to export from Modo. Imports straight into EI Animator without a problem. Here's (http://www.eitechnologygroup.com/wiki/Modo_Import/) a little entry I made on the EIAS wiki on the subject.

Martin Kay
05-21-2009, 02:56 PM
I always used FBX to export from Modo. Imports straight into EI Animator without a problem. Here's (http://www.eitechnologygroup.com/wiki/Modo_Import/) a little entry I made on the EIAS wiki on the subject.

Thanks Manuel for that information. I have used fbx export from Modo, but not always successfully. I will certainly need to try utilising the UV maps if it can be done in EI.

Martin K

Martin Kay
05-21-2009, 03:05 PM
When you say "not always succesfully", what does that mean? Did it crash EIAS at import? There are certain things you can do in Modo that the EIAS FBX importer can't deal with. I tried to explain them in my wiki entry, if it's too obtuse, just let me know.

Probably not 'cleaned up' as you said. I'll be giving it another go to see how I get on with it. Cheers!

Martin K

manuel
05-21-2009, 03:05 PM
Thanks Manuel for that information. I have used fbx export from Modo, but not always successfully. I will certainly need to try utilising the UV maps if it can be done in EI.
When you say "not always succesfully", what does that mean? Did it crash EIAS at import? There are certain things you can do in Modo that the EIAS FBX importer can't deal with. I tried to explain them in my wiki entry, if it's too obtuse, just let me know.

Novakog
06-03-2009, 02:07 AM
And in doing so, they will leave behind a whole lot of orphaned vertices.
Once you notice you have all these orphaned vertices, Modo doesn't offer a solution by default. The solution, the cleanup script, has to be downloaded from VertexMonkey.

Sorry, not totally on-topic (I know next to nothing about EIAS), but I think the "default" solution to this is to just select all 0-polygon vertices from the statistics panel and delete them. Is that sufficient?

kevmo
06-03-2009, 02:52 AM
Regarding Modo to EI models, the problems I've seen with relatively simple models are flipped polys, they look like holes in the models, and I tried reversing normals etc still no luck. It could be the obj format? they look ok in modo after freezing. If I remember correctly
the FBX would crash EI sometimes.

Anyway, I like having things in one place, conversely, Modo imports models nicely and plays nice with most other apps and if there are problems they can be fixed in my experience.

thanx
k!

manuel
06-03-2009, 08:02 AM
Sorry, not totally on-topic (I know next to nothing about EIAS), but I think the "default" solution to this is to just select all 0-polygon vertices from the statistics panel and delete them. Is that sufficient?
The discussion was about the "out of the box" experience of using Modo. What happens when you use Modo for the first time. The solution you offered is something only an advanced user would come up with. So in that sense, no, it's not sufficient.

helluvapixel
06-06-2009, 11:06 PM
For which version of AR is the latest AR3.For stills i am sure it works but not for animation with the default settings.
Edgard

You'll have to post a scene, or show a clip something because the new AR3 is completely capable of good GI animations without super high settings.

Next, who uses default settings? That is probably half your problem there. Defaults don't take into account geometry size, or scale, or spatial attributes, so at best you can get good results using 'default' geometry.

For example if you use default settings and your average object scale is 1000m, you are going to be killing the CPU.

As for motion graphics, the mograph module and C4D is going to be hard to beat. While modo has replicators and such, the tools you get in mograph won't be there in modo. And if you use TP with mograph then modo isn't really an option yet.

Best thing to do is wait for 401 release, and try the demo.

ediris
06-07-2009, 02:29 AM
You'll have to post a scene, or show a clip something because the new AR3 is completely capable of good GI animations without super high settings.

Next, who uses default settings?

.

That is new never heard of super high settings.
As Martin mentioned above that the default settings which are not at low quality work fine under some circumstances, when you use TP (no pyroclusters here) you have to bump the values. Some details will help for example if you have an sphere as an sky with a material set to planar it will help of you set it to spherical. Now these new GI is very powerful and fast is just a matter of understanding it, i agree with you regarding presets but they are there so you can use them and than tweak whatever you need to at a later stage.
Edgard

CGTalk Moderation
06-07-2009, 02:29 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.