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Shaykai
07-17-2003, 10:38 AM
its on all the webdesign forums i've seen except for this one. Version 4 of www.2advanced.com is out. IT has built a lot of hype and some people think it doesn't live up to it. Since this forum is relativly un-exposed to all the hype, what do you think about this website? Also the site makes a lot more sense if you watch the demo reel.


www.2advanced.com


Shaykai

poe
07-17-2003, 01:05 PM
2advanced hasnt ever lived up to any hype because they just rip off every trendwhore facet of 'web-design' and bundle it together in a very average flash site

Ian Jones
07-17-2003, 01:38 PM
poe: They partly defined trendwhore... more likely everyone else rips them.

I'm just browsing the site right now... I don't think it lives up to the hype either. Personally I think the colour choice is, well not particulairy pleasing to put it nicely. It is overall pretty darn nice though. I love the soundtracks, really good ambients. I'm d-loading the reel right now. Will post some more thoughts later.

poe
07-17-2003, 01:51 PM
people like attik, gmunk, kleber defined trendwhore, 2advanced has always ridden on the back of that and created an homogenised, "design by numbers" mentality that has always defined their site and 99% of client sites they do.

there are very few people i cant even manage a begrudging bit of respect for, but 2advanced are one of those.

dmeyer
07-17-2003, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by poe
2advanced hasnt ever lived up to any hype because they just rip off every trendwhore facet of 'web-design' and bundle it together in a very average flash site

Well their server certainly isnt living up to the hype...

Ian Jones
07-17-2003, 02:16 PM
poe: This argument is going nowhere. I also respect attik, Gmunk (very influential) and Kleber. I just think you are discounting 2advanced too much. They have had a lot of influence with many flash designers.

Their server is slow as shit atm.... may pick up in a week or two.

dmeyer
07-17-2003, 04:16 PM
Their site is 2advanced for my computer, and they ought 2advance their server setup.

hmm...dunno about the christmas color scheme.

Shaykai
07-17-2003, 04:31 PM
jeeze poe, no need to be bitter.:shame:

I'm suprised most people don't like the color scheme, i think its awesome, of course, red is my favorite color.

As for the servers i'm not suprise they are having issues, thousands of people were trying to access the servers last night, it was crazy, they had a countdown to midnight on the splash page. You can check out some screenshots of it on ultrashock.com

I'm a big fan of 2advanced, and i almost wish they weren't as popular as they are, because now everyone hates them, and even when they release a fantastic site like this one it still gets ripped to shreads by people. I mean constructive critiques are one thing, just bashing fo the sake of bashing is lame.

Well thats my 2 cents :)


Shaykai :wavey:

poe
07-17-2003, 05:26 PM
i hated them way before they were popular :)

Shaykai
07-17-2003, 05:28 PM
rofl, that comment owned

LOL

shaykai

poe
07-17-2003, 05:54 PM
actually, the one thing i do like is the colour, i'll give you that much

Shaykai
07-17-2003, 07:59 PM
:thumbsup:

sebek27
07-18-2003, 04:24 AM
poe what is your problem ? the truth is you are jealous! and that's the truth... did you know that their profits jumped 300% last year ? don't you think that means anything ? if you don't think 2advanced designs incredible websites than you don't know anything about flash design... try desiging a site that even comes close to the quality of their work, then mouth off ! they are one of the top 5 flash design companies, so before you open your mouth, look at what other sites look like compared to the work 2adv puts out...

dmeyer
07-18-2003, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by sebek27
if you don't think 2advanced designs incredible websites than you don't know anything about flash design...

http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html

Ian Jones
07-18-2003, 10:27 AM
I think you are totally wrong dmeyer... and whoever wrote that article is a complete dark ages moron. Granted, flash does get abused a bit, but so does html and javascript. If we did exactly as the author of that article suggests then we would have such a humongous shithole boring half-assed internet. Try and convince me otherwise and you are a moron too.

dmeyer
07-18-2003, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Ian Jones
I think you are totally wrong dmeyer... and whoever wrote that article is a complete dark ages moron.

http://www.internet-magazine.com/features/jakob1.asp
http://www.fortune.com/fortune/smallbusiness/articles/0,15114,359124,00.html
http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_2557.html
http://www.nytimes.com/library/tech/98/07/cyber/articles/13usability.html
http://www.zdnet.com/anchordesk/story/story_1822.html
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/001218/nycu/web.htm
http://www.stuttgarter-zeitung.de/stz/page/detail.php/228123
http://www.businessweek.com/2000/00_47/b3708076.htm
http://www.webreference.com/new/nielsen.html
http://asia.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/asiapcf/east/02/23/web.usability/index.html
http://www.contentious.com/articles/1-5/qa1-5a.html

Yeah, a real dark ages moron all right. :D

sebek27
07-18-2003, 01:27 PM
dmeyer:look when the articles are dated :surprised

poe
07-18-2003, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by sebek27
poe what is your problem ? the truth is you are jealous! and that's the truth... did you know that their profits jumped 300% last year ? don't you think that means anything ? if you don't think 2advanced designs incredible websites than you don't know anything about flash design... try desiging a site that even comes close to the quality of their work, then mouth off ! they are one of the top 5 flash design companies, so before you open your mouth, look at what other sites look like compared to the work 2adv puts out...

nice rant.

why would i be jealous of a designer who is largely hated and made fun of?

actually i work building flash applications for content management and e-learning deployment for some of the largest companies in the world :) so i know a little bit about flash.

my profits jumped 2500% percent in the last 6 months..but then i went from earning nothing to earning alot...so %s mean nothing

lets be honest, what do they do...well they have masks that reveal content thats delivered by xml into scripted text boxes in their engine system. they have movie clips that flicker using the color api and onEnterFrame() commands and a variable frame rate (perhaps they even upgraded it to using setINterval now).

interface is separated from content from engine from images. simple...i do it every day. theres nothing to write home about.

they do nothing and have 1 system for churning out everything they do, its just a skin on top of it (and not a particually amazing skin most of the time)

as for other sites:

gmunk.com - inspired
praystation.com (once-upon-a-forest too) - way before 2adv was even a company
kleber - inspired
digit - inspired flash work for the likes of mtv2, habitat

just a small list of people who actually innovate.

poe
07-18-2003, 02:07 PM
re:http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html

Jakob Nielsen is well known for his hatred of flash. He is a self-titled usability 'guru' who is making alot of money from saying nothing but common sense.

dmeyer
07-18-2003, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by poe
re:http://www.useit.com/alertbox/20001029.html
saying nothing but common sense.

Things that SHOULD be common sense...however a quick trip through most of the flash sites on the web would prove otherwise....

sebek27
07-18-2003, 02:21 PM
poe so all their sites are designed using some type of template? but they still all look good and different imo..

Ian Jones
07-18-2003, 02:24 PM
dmeyer : So what exactly are you doing on a creatives webforum? You are in a Flash sub-forum, yet you hold the opinion that flash is 99% bad? <-- Based on the fact that you endorse that article posted previously.

Are you scared of new media?

Are you scared of new ideas, new ways of thinking.. new web experiences?

Did you ever stop to think that maybe the internet is not just a 'text-only' information database? Maybe ppl also browse for visual, creative and entertainment reasons. If 'efficient' 'streamlined' 'text-only' web ideals had their way you would be denying the most powerful aspect of the human sensory system. VISION.

I want to be enriched, I want to see animation, I want to be captivated. You can't get that with a boring stuffy internet, your articles represent (mostly).

sebek27 already said that 2advanced is a highly successful web design studio. There is no argument, the proof is in the $$$.

If you carefully analyze each piece of their portfolio, you'll come to realise that they adapt their 'flashyness' to suit the project. Clients like Bacardi get the flashy treatment... to suit the target audience. Clients like Foundstone get the corporate treatment, clean and information oriented. Can you not see the distinction?

Ian Jones
07-18-2003, 02:28 PM
LOL, if you visit this link posted by Dmeyer above:

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/issue/001218/nycu/web.htm

You'll see an excellent example of usability. ROFL. You'll also be delighted by a friendly POPUP AD usability experience... hahaha.

dmeyer
07-18-2003, 02:52 PM
The post and links were meant to illustrate the fact that usability should be first and foremost in web design. Not that flash is necessarily bad, but it's really unnecessary for a site that whose core purpose is information. If you want to browse for entertainment or new media narrative and rich media content, then thats a different story. In fact the 2advanced site is quite appropriate for what its aiming to do. Flash design studios websites need to be overdone, as its gerenally showcase for what the group can do, but not necessarily what it should do. I wouldn't call it cutting edge design ....cutting edge flash design...perhaps. The point really is that as the ease with which one can author new media content, it seems that the tendency for "designers" to ignore basic design principles increases as well.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the biggest Nielsen fan, or much of a fan at all. I think he's an extremeist and even a borderline luddite, but he's got a point. (i was too tired this morning to post these comments with the original link)

Ian Jones
07-18-2003, 03:12 PM
Great! finally some common ground. I agree that both sides of the argument can learn from each other. Thank you for you most recent post.

I'm still a bit confused because your original post is contradictory to this new statement. You diss them, posting a link that says flash is 99% bad and then turn around later and say:

"In fact the 2advanced site is quite appropriate for what its aiming to do"

It's ok, I understand what you meant now... so I apologize for my aggressive reactions earlier.

dmeyer
07-18-2003, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by Ian Jones

I'm still a bit confused because your original post is contradictory to this new statement. You diss them, posting a link that says flash is 99% bad and then turn around later and say:

"In fact the 2advanced site is quite appropriate for what its aiming to do"


I was poking gentle fun at it earlier. It's good in the way that summer blockbuster movies are good...as long as you don't go in expecting Oscar performances, you'll be satisfied. They have a purpose (just enough story to connect the action sequences)...and as long as they dont take themselves too seriously they do it well.

Along those lines, 2advanced's site is appropriate because it accomplishes what it sets out to do, show some whiz-bang flash work as a way to educate people to what the company is about.

Ikarus
07-19-2003, 12:43 AM
Haveing seen their previous website and some of their work, I have a few comments and opinions about the new 2Advanced site:

-Although the site looks great and has alot of great transitions and eye candy, the main page has too many competing elements that fight for attention. Although once you get into the subsections it's alittle better since some of the elements are hidden down.
-If your not running the site in a computer faster than 1Ghz you'll notice slow downs, as I did at work. The only draw back from this I see is that not all clients have fast top of the line computer, and they might not get the full effect, etc.
-As far as the colors go, I have mixed feeling about it. I kinda like them, but they would not have been my first choice for colors, I would have experiments alittle more on the colors.
-From a design point of view they could have done alot better in my opinion, as far as arranging thing on screen, etc.

Other than that, the site was not what I had expected. I was expecting something new and creatively different, something fresh, etc. Although I think what contributed to that was that they hyped it up too much with a party release, all the staments they made, etc. To me it just looks like an upgrade of their old website, it looks and has alot of similarities to the old one. Only things are placed at different places, I was also expecting alot more content than what they previously had, which they didn't.

In all I think it would have been better if they would have just released their new website without telling anyone. That way there would not have been any hype about it and people would react differently. Anyways they did a great job for the website, I can see it took alot of work and alot of detail in creating it. It's a great website overall, but not a revolutionary one like everyone was expecting it to be.

Poe
why would i be jealous of a designer who is largely hated and made fun of?

I don't know much about 2Advanced/Eric Jordan's past work, but I have read and heard that alot of designers don't respect or like the guy, Why is that? I'm just curious.

Aelius
07-19-2003, 07:22 PM
I skipped all the arguing, so apologies if I repeat anything said before.

I don't like the new site - it doesn't live up to the hype, it's just more of the same. But that pretty much sums up 2Advanced as a company, they have until now produced some of the most finely polished flash work I've ever seen, but at the end of the day, anything hosted on Media Temple has that same look and feel to it. I get the idea that they all drink in the same bars!

As for the colour scheme - it's a deliberate attempt at swerving trends, but doesn't ultimately achieve any design goal - it doesn't say "big business" like their previous site did - now it just says "bunch of students". To me, that is.

They backed themselves into a corner with all this futuristic 'techie' crap and fell victim to their own hype. Now they're in a science-fiction rutt which they'll struggle to get out of
for years to come.

As far as Eric Jordan being largely hated and made fun-of, I've never come across this. Most people I've come across in the flash community seem to respect and admire him, if not for innovation, for his ability to churn out highly professional work time after time for huge multi-national clients. He's not often seen barking on forums about other flash developers without any work of his own on display.:shame:

This is my humble opinion. I'm a small-time flash developer, and I am more design-led than technologically led. I'd rather build a simple site that achieves it's objectives than break technological boundaries and miss the point completely - but that's just me.

And my portfolio backs up the fact that I know what I'm talking about.

ESAD
07-29-2003, 11:41 PM
Your site kicks major ass, any negative comments are surely from jealous individuals. I think it rocks!:thumbsup:

DogmaD
07-31-2003, 01:44 PM
I agree with Aelius,

I visited the site today and i was disappointed in some things and liked other things. I don't like the prophecy stuff, it looks like a cheap Matrix / sci-fi rip off, the demo reel is boring, the 3D stuff has some good things going for it, but the city for example looks like it was done in 1996 or something.

The site text has some flaws, some of it looks sharp, like pixelfonts are supposed to look, but most of the titles look blurred. The layout looks a bit cramped to me, maybe because of all the patterns in the site.

What i do like is the general feel of the site, navigation is easy and clear and the download times are better then on some sites, like neostream for example. Somehow i dislike the design of the red parts, but like the design of the blue parts, maybe because they don't use patterns and keep the blue parts clear.

I just have one question about this site and that is, in what way is it better than the old site, what part is so progressive?
:surprised

Web Guy
07-31-2003, 05:58 PM
Man, You mean to tell me I set here and read all of the 2 pages for this. What a waist!!

PS: I hate there new colors but like there web designs...

bumskee
08-08-2003, 07:39 AM
Man, You mean to tell me I set here and read all of the 2 pages for this. What a waist!!

well, i just did what you did...:surprised
only thing i remember is aelius's website, which was good, i think i spent few minutes dropping things down the abyss..it's quite fun try chucking every menu down the abyss before they come BACK! i could only manage 5 max...anyone with better luck??

BTW, i dun mind 2advanced, the site is suppose to show off but i guess everyone is a lil sick of seeing similar things everywhere.

:beer:

AirbORn
08-11-2003, 07:32 AM
Personally I loved version 3 of 2advanced.com the colour scheme was better, their demo reel was better and their over all design and navigation was pleasing. Even though i'm speaking only for myself I do beileve that others would agree to some extent with what I think.

SexyPancakes
09-01-2003, 09:04 PM
Edit: lol I skipped some of the arguing too, so apologies from me also if I repeat the same things.

Ok, Im going to leap into this argument with my opinion here, but before I start I'd like to say im a Digital Art and design student coming from a Multimedia Production / Web design course that I did previous to that.

I may not have designed a high volume of websites, but I'd like to think that I am proficent enough a web designer, im not the best and most experienced in the world and I know that im nowhere near any level that you are at. But I'll get there someday :-P lol.

Anyways, to my point. Useability isnt in the dark ages, its just plain common sense. I have seen horrible flash sites in my time and I have seen some good ones.

But Jacob nielsen's (and vincent flanders his contemporary) main argument for the internet is this: if you went to your local store, and faced a spectacle of a show before you went in the door, and sometimes you couldnt even get into the door and bypass it when all you want is to buy some milk or sugar... then every time you did this you'd get pissed off or bored and ignore it completely.

So basically youd be wasting time and resources on something that isnt really needed when you consider the truth in what the websites all about.

These guys are consultants for buisnesses, time is money and on the net if users have to endure content that takes ages to load (not everyone has broadband you know) or if too much of a show is made then you lose potential customers.

I wouldnt go attacking those guys because they are catering for a different end of the market.. buisnesses and the audiences whose attention we are all fighting for. Yet these rules still apply to the designer and experimental end of the market and vice versa.

You can be experimental for the sake of being experimental, but if you dont adhere to the rules of usability which is plain common sense then you will have a restricted audience. Its about aiding the audience to relax and buy into what your showing them. And of course some rules can be bent and broken. But you need to know the rules before you can do either.

Personally, I try to keep in mind usability when designing any multimedia productions. Yes you can get bogged down in it, because I know: thats my failing, but I know that its needed do give some sort of structure for controlled chaos, all I need to do is create some chaos :-P :-D

jrwells
09-02-2003, 02:05 AM
All this arguing over flash designs kills me. The internet speeds are finally rising and it is about time that somebody took advantage and began using higher speeds to improve the look of certian parts of the internet. I don't buy into the arguement that we should all pander to the slowest computers out there. While that is great for a business like ebay or amazon, if I am just looking to entertain myself, or looking into cg related topics I appreciate seeing a website that is more than a few well done pictures and neatly organized text. I am a big fan of 2advanced and have been for a long while. I don't really care if they have hacked ideas from others, their team had a very good grasp of design concepts and animation, even if they did try to get a little bigger than they should have. I especially like the concept, the Prophacy is real, this is what the internet is coming to because this is what people want, an interactive form of television not just picture books. Traditional html will always exist as it will always have an important function on the internet, but flash is what is making the internet fun again.

Maxx
09-03-2003, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by jrwells
flash is what is making the internet fun again.

I agree with this. (I also think it's making a certain portion of the internet an endless morass of snappy pages that say and do nothing. But that's niether here nor there.) And the cool thing is that Flash is making the Internet fun for the designer, too. I love doing Flash work - really, for one major reason. Flash allows a DTP-style of design in a liquid medium. HTML used to, and still does, drive me up a fricking wall. Everything is dependant on some random, completely uncontrollable variables - the user's screen size and resolution, what brower they're using, what font size they've set, etc. It's just rather frazzling IMO.

Whereas Flash allows a designer to design a site at a specific size, place certain elements in specific places, and they stay there! And (beyond monitor gamma and cailbration issues) look and act the same, regardless of browser! And ActionScript is one heck of a robust, solid scripting language with a small learning curve.

Are there too many intros out there? Probably. Is there too much completely useless animation out there? Probably. Did people design bad and irritating sites before Flash made it more exciting to do so? Hell yes! People will always make bad web sites. Does the new 2advanced site suck? Not in my opinion. I find things I would change, but they're mostly personal preferences.

So anyway, I was bored, had made it through the entire thread, and couldn't count on both hands and feet how many times I've heard people arguing whether Flash animation is great "because everything just moves!" or it sucks because "everything keeps f*(@ing moving!". So, that was my 2 cents - rip away ladies and gents!

AirbORn
09-04-2003, 05:51 AM
Everyone seems to be sharing very interesting opinions and I agree on the most part. Flash is one of the greatest thing to happen to the internet.

However, going back to 2Advanced.com, coming from a design background, the way they designed version 4 is nothing amazing, I must admit that they have some impresive animations and sequences but it seems like it was a rushed job in order to make themselves look good. And what's with the demo reel? It looks so amiture.

And when I say this I'm sure that some people can agree, after seeing version 3 of 2advanced.com when it first came out that was something "Too advanced" for its time, so with the latest version being released in July people were expecting something too advanced once again, but instead they got something that has already been done.

I'm talking too much, and if my opinion seems a little to extreme i'm sorry. I just want to share my opinion. :shrug:

slayerment
09-05-2003, 06:54 AM
The new 2advanced is off the hook. And for those of you who think theyre falling behind think again. Check http://www.fordvehicles.com/allnewf150/

Aelius
09-17-2003, 01:08 PM
Sheesh, where to start...?

only thing i remember is aelius's website, which was good, i think i spent few minutes dropping things down the abyss..it's quite fun try chucking every menu down the abyss before they come BACK! i could only manage 5 max...anyone with better luck??Lol!:D Glad it kept you amused!!!

Did people design bad and irritating sites before Flash made it more exciting to do so? Hell yes! :applause:

Slayerment: Their work is fantastic, and they do make the web and much more interesting place. But it's their website we're looking at, not their track record.

I expected something breathtaking and was really disappointed, but it's still far more accomplished than anything I have ever done, and remains a benchmark I will be striving to meet.

slayerment
09-17-2003, 06:59 PM
The purpose of their site wasn't intended to be a 3 MB Quicktime video full of special effects. It still had to be under 500kb and dynamic. They fit that criteria quite well.

Pent
09-26-2003, 02:42 AM
I love their site(s)
even this one, nice colors, they pulled off something I couldn't with red
anyway, there is so much hatred, backstabbing, and people that think they know how to design websites, and think they are good critics that I won't even try and argue with any of you that hate it.
good luck on your hatred of anything trendy and cool, because at least I enjoy looking at it as a website. unlike you.

AirbORn
09-26-2003, 05:43 AM
No one hates 2advance.com because of their site. Everyone is entitled to an opinion. Some people don't like it while others do.

I myself love their previous version because it appealed to me more. The new one doesn't, but I still visit their site on a bi-weekly basis to see what's NEW!

So calm down.

Sceme
10-20-2003, 10:44 AM
personally i liked their older site more than this new one. Changement time between sections is too long. But hey, just personal oppinion :)

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