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View Full Version : 3D Animatrix characters R on line


FranckSitbon
07-17-2003, 09:00 AM
http://www.stevengiesler.com/images/hi_rez/Matrix2preqCast.jpg

Here is his web site:
http://www.stevengiesler.com/





:applause:

clusterfuq
07-17-2003, 09:38 AM
blimey.


i'm truely stunned, incredible. (though the hair may let the top ones down - bit blurry) surely some of them are photos!

:drool:

tauism
07-17-2003, 10:44 AM
the asian dude looks very real!

Neox
07-17-2003, 10:51 AM
ehehe lazy guys, reusing models from final fantasy :D

no its really great work and i dunno maybe i'm the only one but the one in the middle reminds me of Wesley Snipes :D

Dan Wade
07-17-2003, 11:28 AM
I think the hair is just a guide texture map. I think the real hair was rendered with passes.

Sweet work.

Dan.

cakeypigdog
07-17-2003, 11:33 AM
wow!!!!
thanks for this link!
amazing to see these so close: great reference !
sterling work!

Rotamus
07-17-2003, 11:36 AM
wow awsome i loved that short.
man u guys modelled all the female parts but u were to shy to model the guys.... tsk tsk..... heheh :thumbsup:

LoneLobo
07-17-2003, 11:36 AM
awesome work, lovely to look at :D :applause:

ThirdEye
07-17-2003, 11:42 AM
They're simply awesome, but they're not 100% realistic. Final Fantasy director avoided the 100% realistic look, that would have scared people, he chose a more illustrative mood, something less "scary". The Animatrix characters have been developed the same way i think. Anyway these are maybe the best models i've ever seen on the screen.

Ed Lee
07-17-2003, 11:46 AM
Whether one liked the film Final Fantasy or not it's still one of a great achievement in CGI. A leap forward. Especially what they've achieved with realistic human characters. Again in Animatrix they've brought us the same wonderment of human characters, much in a way that ILM has achieved with the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park series.

Too bad H'wood actors feel threatened by this...one can assume why.

Ed--

Boot Guy Joe
07-17-2003, 11:52 AM
The CG was great in FF...still shouldn't of been made by Square USA....damn those characters sucked....(not the models, the characters themselves)

Anyway, that's great work, I still can't believe I haven't seen Matrix FFotO yet....

Ed Lee: I agree completely.

Neox
07-17-2003, 11:53 AM
@thirdeye, the main characters from animatrix are nearly the same as in final fantasy ;)
http://neox.gfx-scene.de/public/test/animatrix-vs-ff.jpg
so the design issues are definately the same in that case :p

Boot Guy Joe
07-17-2003, 11:57 AM
Was that supposed to be a shot showing FF characters against FFotO? 'cause it isn't. :D

But, I agree, they were similar, and it was obvious they weren't designed by Square Japan... ugh...the FF:TSW guys had no imagination in it whatsoever...such a shame.

ThirdEye
07-17-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Neox
@thirdeye, the main characters from animatrix are nearly the same as in final fantasy ;)
http://neox.gfx-scene.de/public/test/animatrix-vs-ff.jpg
so the design issues are definately the same in that case :p


I know they're nearly the same... but what r u showing us with that pic?

Neox
07-17-2003, 12:20 PM
the left side is from animatrix, the right side from ff, the man is not only nearly the same, and the girl is pretty much the same, just some smalltweakings on the eyes nose and mouth
even the textures are the same... just to show you that they are not only devoloped the same way, they are the same characters :)

rayguo
07-17-2003, 12:26 PM
i post the first post!!
but now, where has it gone???

ThirdEye
07-17-2003, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Neox
the left side is from animatrix, the right side from ff, the man is not only nearly the same, and the girl is pretty much the same, just some smalltweakings on the eyes nose and mouth
even the textures are the same... just to show you that they are not only devoloped the same way, they are the same characters :)

Is it a joke or have you gone mad? They're both from Animatrix, they're the same models, there's nothing from FF there!!

ozgunzumrut
07-17-2003, 01:02 PM
i think the asian guy is not cg
it's photo (ex : eyes is not symmetrical)

Neox
07-17-2003, 01:03 PM
what ever you say :annoyed:
go to the page Franck Sitbon posted and open the first picture in the Animatrix Row... and then go down, yeah there are more pictures down there... just a little more down ;)
now you are there, do you see the headline? can you read? i can and i read "final fantasy - the spirits within" and now click the second (if you can't count try the middle one, you don't even have to know the difference between left and right, just the middle)... AND? do you see them? I do!
so i'm neither crazy nor am i joking... but thank you for your post :thumbsdow

ThirdEye
07-17-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Neox
what ever you say :annoyed:
go to the page Franck Sitbon posted and open the first picture in the Animatrix Row... and then go down, yeah there are more pictures down there... just a little more down ;)
now you are there, do you see the headline? can you read? i can and i read "final fantasy - the spirits within" and now click the second (if you can't count try the middle one, you don't even have to know the difference between left and right, just the middle)... AND? do you see them? I do!
so i'm neither crazy nor am i joking... but thank you for your post :thumbsdow


I don't know you but i've never seen those character in the movie.

ThirdEye
07-17-2003, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by ozgunzumrut
i think the asian guy is not cg
it's photo (ex : eyes is not symmetrical)


So that's not cg because it has two asymmetrical eyes? :surprised <------- look at this smiley, it doesn't have 2 symmetrical eyes, is it a photo?

Neox
07-17-2003, 01:06 PM
they are no main characters, maybe thats why you didn't recognize em :)
and maybe they are not in the film (can't remember it anymore) but it is written there, they are from ff :)

ThirdEye
07-17-2003, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by Neox
they are no main characters, maybe thats why you didn't recognize em :)
and maybe they are not in the film (can't remember it anymore) but it is written there, they are from ff :)


Anyway what i want to say is that those models are the same models, they're not similar, equal or identical, they're THE SAME. :)

Neox
07-17-2003, 01:09 PM
you crazy guy, never ever :D

ThirdEye
07-17-2003, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Neox
you crazy guy, never ever :D


LOL! :scream:

hypercube
07-17-2003, 01:11 PM
Just to hopefully clear this up..NOT THE SAME:

http://www.hyper3fx.com/projx/cgc/Osiris_Comparison.jpg

I think the places the images were filed under on the site confused the issue, but they're definitely not the same models or characters. :shrug:

Neox
07-17-2003, 01:13 PM
lol, try it with photoshop, you can lay one over the other (just scale a little) you'll see that the man is exactly the same, and the women has a different nose, brighter skin, another lipstick color and no makeup around her eyes :)

jeremybirn
07-17-2003, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by ozgunzumrut
i think the asian guy is not cg
it's photo (ex : eyes is not symmetrical)

There's no rule that makes CG characters symmetrical! You're right that asymmertical eyes and eyebrow textures make him more realistic, though.

By the way, if you want a quick way to spot 3D renders and tell itfrom a photo, renders that lack sub-surface scattering like this have black edges on the left and right of the bottom of the nose that wouldn't be there on equally bright photos, also the rim light on the left side of all the models isn't back-lighting the ears at all and the character's right ear is black in the middle where it would be glowing red from the rim.

Also note that he doesn't have hair yet, it's just a texture map.

Can you see now?

-jeremy

ThirdEye
07-17-2003, 01:17 PM
No Neox, he's right, he's comparing some different models, not the same pics you compared. Thaddeus from Animatrix is definitely very different from the black male char of FF, just look at the jaw, the nose, the mouth, the smile lines, the forehead, the haircut, the eyes... it seems the ears are the same tho.

Neox
07-17-2003, 01:20 PM
hmmm i can't see his picture (didn't even recognize at first, that there is a picture...)

:edit: ok i had to change my proxy options :edit:
well if you are comparing those characters there can't be that much similarities :D

littledevil
07-17-2003, 01:31 PM
You know what i was wondering ? How long do they work on one face ? I mean from modeling over uv-maping to texturing ? 1 Week, 2 weeks or 4,5,6 or 7 ?

Neox
07-17-2003, 01:36 PM
as far as i know all characters had the same basemesh, so unwrapping and skinng has just to be done once, but i really can't say how long they took to create a face, just ask steven himself :)

Julez4001
07-17-2003, 01:52 PM
black guy from animatrix is same as the one of the council members (albiet a younger one) in FF:TSW.

ghZaaaRK
07-17-2003, 02:00 PM
stop kidding dude!

there's no interest for them to make fake. Did you watch Osiris?? it was a live movie??

i think the asian guy is not cg
stupid!insulting for their works.
That just proves the required realism and reached, thus excellent work .Anyway it's true that some models come from Final Fantasy.


this thread goes in a stupid way even if you try to make humour !

Anyway, models are incredible, i like (love :) ) especially the asian girl. She really looks like Ming Na

A thing which i don't understand. Wasn't it Francisco Cortina who had made those models? Jue and Black? Okay, he wasn't alone, so who made what? Rigging Texturing etc?


cheers

SpaceJASE
07-17-2003, 02:04 PM
What I found interesting about the first set of pics posted here is that the two males in the first row have the same mole / freckle map. OK, maybe it has been tweaked a bit for each guy, but basically it's the same one.

ThirdEye
07-17-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by ghZaaaRK

A thing which i don't understand. Wasn't it Francisco Cortina who had made those models? Jue and Black? Okay, he wasn't alone, so who made what? Rigging Texturing etc?


Body modeling: Franscisco Cortina
Face modeling: Steven Giesler

on a side note the FF characters have been cleaned up by Renè Morel (the amazonsoul.com guy)

Milho
07-17-2003, 02:59 PM
IMO it doesn't matter that the models are almost the same in both movies (if they are).

Have you noticed that some actors also play different roles and different characters in different movies. Just imagine Arnie, Sly, Harrison Ford, Kim Basinger or any other actor would only cast in one movie and then get a regular job. lol

Am I saying digital character can replace really actors? ...naaah! :rolleyes:


Cheers
:beer:

kpalazov
07-17-2003, 03:10 PM
Thankyou very much for taking the time to post this work as it serves a greater pupose as both a great lesson in human facial anatomy and more importantly it gives us a target to shoot for.

For me I can say that they are very well executed but still there are some faces with not problems but unrealistic areas and features most notably noses!!.....but then again I should'nt talk against this work as many many weeks of work have gone into them and they are far beyond my capabilities atm.

thanks once again it has been a pleaure to view them.

Kiril

ghZaaaRK
07-17-2003, 03:32 PM
exact Milho.
In fact, some people have forgotten the objective of square with Osiris.
Remind you, Square Movie dept. had a large debt with FF:TSW's flop. They had decided to make the last one square movie with accumulated technology. For 2 reasons, 1) try to bring back some money, 2) an homage (i should think) . So it'd be a bit stupid to reinvent the wheel. Take same materials, tweak some and voila.

I must admit, i'm a bit disappointed about Osiris, really short anime with no depth.

+

Shade01
07-17-2003, 03:35 PM
Good works, but they definitely reused a few of the models from Final Finatasy, in particular the black guy, which is very obvious. Even the regular meshes look like they all come from the same base mesh. They even share the same stilted facial expressions.

chach
07-17-2003, 03:45 PM
Giesler is the man.
Osiris was the bomb. Not much compares.
awesome work!

I won't feign superior skills and try to say this and this are the same, SINCE THAT IS SOME LAMER JEALOUSY.
If you ever worked on any realistic characters, then you'd have to recognize that each rendering is unique. If you can do better, SERVE IT UP!
Of course they have similar topology, the model's been optimized thoroughly by Fransisco for animation.
I hate to see excellent work get illogically shredded here.

octopus77
07-17-2003, 03:54 PM
Hey, did you realize that the freckles texture is exactly the same in the 2 guys at the top!!

Obiusly it doesn´t make the work less impressive.

tom
07-17-2003, 04:21 PM
amazing workĦIĦIĦI:thumbsup:
especially the ""Asian""
because I'm the Taiwan people ;)

Shaykai
07-17-2003, 04:23 PM
i agree with chach, you guys need to quit complaining.


Shaykai

swag
07-17-2003, 04:29 PM
hey guys take the Animatrix away look at the nvidia (1. row) pictures they are the best i ever saw

wrs_anim8r
07-17-2003, 04:58 PM
I've known Steve for almost ten years now, and I have invited him to take part in this discussion, but I don't expect he will. He doesn't flaunt his artwork, that's not his style... the only reason he has a website was because his roommate set it up for him.

I've read all of the posts here, and I'm not going to be the one to say this or that in his defense, but I did want to post a portion of an eMail that he sent me before the FF:TSW movie was released...

Steve wrote:
-- snip --

It's been an uphill battle, nearly everything I've been through in the last three years. Well, maybe "battle" doesn't even begin to explain the war I've survived out here. But I have survived, and it looks as if I might come out of this thing with golden turds. As Lead Character Artist, I think I have one of the better credits for the movie, as it's visually pretty amazing and the novelty is indeed with the characters.
It's not reality, it's not photo real. It could have been though. The tools are out there, we're just not using them. The quality can be had, it's just nearly impossible with these God-forsaken producers and the length of a feature film. Radiosity, didn't use it, need it, desperately. Muscle simulation for face and body, didn't use it, need it. Yes, this all means that render and computation times are far less than they would have been, BUT, it also means that the artists went to new levels of suffering to acquire nearly impossible goals; And we came close my friend, on many occasions.

-- snip --

It could have been something much more than it is, but our hands were tied. My images were very often so real that people mistook then as photos, in my lighting, without animation. But, that isn't the reality of production; Everything I created was handed off, often times to someone with a little less heart, not quite the smae eye, under major time pressures. I myself was persecuted time and time again for improving things constantly when so many people just wanted to get it done. It's a shame, but you'll never see so much of the work I did. The detail in the facial sculptures, the subtleties of fine wrinkles, the pimples, freckles, large range of colors over facial texture, the pores, individual hairs on eyelashes and eyebrows, the tears, slivers of highlight on the bottom lid of each eye, the softness of peach fuzz, translucent backlighting on every ear, blood vessels, veins, animated furrows and expression wrinkles, an iris that contracts, a pupil that reacts naturally to light, teeth without the CG feature of black lines w/ enamel and tarter, a tongue that appears to have just enjoyed peas. The list goes on and on, and with some characters it was often hard to believe the work would ever be finished. So why is it a shame? Quality, it seems, only goes down from there. Animation I expected to compliment and bring to life, seemed to destroy the natural balance and move unnaturally at times; Sometimes over the top, sometimes not enough subtle twitches.
-- snip --
-- end --

His eMail goes on and on, but they're not my words to post, such as these are not anyone's images to post. But they're here now, so enjoy them...

I can only hope Steve decides to say a few words on his behalf...

Shaykai
07-17-2003, 05:05 PM
sounds like he is a true artist, its unfortunate he worked with a team that was as inspired as he was. I look forward to his comments.

Shaykai

Garma
07-17-2003, 05:05 PM
Holy crap... never seen such photorealistic characters. Surely others are beautiful too, but these look like photos to me, cant distinguish them from one. Incredible stuff

Dominique
07-17-2003, 05:06 PM
great job,
perfect human skin

Dom

santosLord
07-17-2003, 05:28 PM
Those are some really good models.. I saw Animatrix and I have to tell you ... they did a really good job on all the short films.. If you havent seen Animatrix then your missing out.

Garma
07-17-2003, 05:35 PM
hmm :) maybe not the right order, but I went through the thread after posting the above post, but i'd like to state that in my eyes its seems to me very dangerous to say that someone fakes. Of course it's possible, but I dont think very much people will do that. So if you think someone fakes, two things can be the case: You are right. Well, the result of posting your opinion (cause that's what it is) is very likely a very long discussion about it, where at the end no one is helped. The faker won't stop, cause that's his nature. And last but not least: You take the *risk that you are wrong*. So if you *are* wrong, and that's the second case, you insult the picture (or compliment, just how the artist takes is, but it is more likely that it is taken as an insult). You definately don't want that, right?

I would just shut up if I think its a fake. That's why I dont with this one :) I dont think it is.

cheers :beer:

Scandell
07-17-2003, 05:35 PM
This is one of the most agrivating threads i have ever seen.
I am having a bad day.

:annoyed: :annoyed:

renderwoman
07-17-2003, 05:37 PM
oooh.it was cool.
i agree with theard eye
its true,that it is not a 100%realistic pics...:thumbsup:

eYadNesS
07-17-2003, 05:57 PM
Waaaaaaaaaa, I want to cry.... It's very old, I want something new!!!

EricChadwick
07-17-2003, 05:58 PM
In case you haven't seen these already, here are a couple texture flats from FF. Check out the second post in the thread...

http://cube.phlatt.net/forums/spiraloid/viewtopic.php?TopicID=402

eYadNesS
07-17-2003, 06:01 PM
And this is a thread about Final Fantasy and Final Fight of Osiris...

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=72623&highlight=final+fantasy

jeb
07-17-2003, 06:02 PM
Cool!! tori amos is in the first pic..i wondered how she would look without long hair.


And Steven..my repects

Larry_g1s
07-17-2003, 06:02 PM
:drool: SPEECHLESS ! ! !

RuneV
07-17-2003, 06:48 PM
A true Artist (with a capital 'A')


http://www.home.no/fjooner/icon_smile_C1.gif http://www.home.no/fjooner/icon_smile_C1.gif http://www.home.no/fjooner/icon_smile_C1.gif

Note: There's always some people that have to take the thread down the wrong path.

Ben Shore
07-17-2003, 06:51 PM
Steven Giesler... hmm nice to finnaly put a name to those character models, I wondered who slaved away on those.
Unbeleaveable talent!

JahnkeKong
07-17-2003, 07:11 PM
lol wrs_anim8r was gonna tell you about the thread but you beat me to it by posting.

I think its funny that this is literally some of the best stuff I've seen on cgtalk, but people crit it harder then anything else, rather then page after page of :drool: :beer: etc. I'm glad I'm not in Steve's shoes, seems like once you hit a certain threshold of talent, some people prefer to tear it down. I would kill to have a tiny bit of his talent, though, hot damn those models are amazing.

RuneV
07-17-2003, 07:13 PM
totally agree with Broodingwolf!

eh
07-17-2003, 07:16 PM
yah these models are great they portray what the story was after a realistic feel but somethings just not right, the human eye is a very precise when identifing human faces and how they're comprised cause we look at faces every day of our lives (excluding the cgtalkers who just sit there and refresh the site every five minutes so they dont miss a thing) so ther will be alot of arguments of why its good and why the models fall through we just got to respect each others opinions.

chach
07-17-2003, 07:24 PM
great link posm!

PauloSampaio
07-17-2003, 07:26 PM
what is this?? oh my god.. virgin mary...

this is not fair, are photos... what software you used?? the textures, can I see??? Jesus

I dont be animator after this...

bye

wrs_anim8r
07-17-2003, 07:31 PM
chach & posm, and any others interested... if you look at the second image on the page that posm posted, the fella with the wide eyes and shaggy beard is Steve. He would often use images of himself for references in his work...

....of course last time I saw him, he had shaved....

chach
07-17-2003, 07:33 PM
There's also a self- portrait character on his site! recognised it immediately. kinda creepy ;)

mark_wilkins
07-17-2003, 08:04 PM
The asian guy mentioned above is definitely CG. (I can't believe anyone would actually say that that image was a fake!)

The textures and model were definitely either scanned or carefully derived from reference. (I heard the story, I can't remember which though.) In fact, the human model for that face is an ex-Square employee who works with me at DreamWorks now, and it's a striking, uncanny resemblance.

-- Mark

Ed Lee
07-17-2003, 08:10 PM
Ok, since no one asked on this thread, what soft did the man use and renderer?.....I may have to go over the The Making of..but wasn't it Maya for software and propreitary renderer?....I know one of the main render software guy left Rhythm and Hues to go work at Square for FF project.

Ed--

Apoclypse
07-17-2003, 08:12 PM
Hmmm... I ve always said that the modeling was the best thing about the FF movie. I do agree with geislers comment about the muscle system which was scrapped because of "time constraints" Which is funny cause in the FF website they were making a huge deal about the muscle deformation system they were "using". If you read the making od book you will see that square had brought in some new blood in the midlle fproduction and that was when the muscle deformation system went out the window. Oh steve... if only they would not have wronged you so.

Oh and the final flight of osiris rocks.

wrs_anim8r
07-17-2003, 08:13 PM
They used Maya for the models and Renderman for the rendering.

AJE
07-17-2003, 08:36 PM
So what is it with guys named 'Steve' (Stahlberg, Giesling, etc...) doing kick a$$ human models?

Where is Steve working now?

Garma
07-17-2003, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by AJE
So what is it with guys named 'Steve' (Stahlberg, Giesling, etc...) doing kick a$$ human models?

Steve, Steven, whatever.. :beer: I m thinking about changing my name :scream:

Neil
07-17-2003, 09:00 PM
I agree that this is a frustrating thread to read.
What's with the disbelief and arguing? These are great models and renders and we've all seen them in action on the big screen. So what's the confusion about calling them fakes or not realistic? :annoyed:

chach
07-17-2003, 09:01 PM
Steven Stahlberg is a different artist that makes AWESOME humanoids. his url is www.optidigit.com.
Steve Giesler went towork for NVidia after TFFOTO. He's working for Sony Imageworks now.
I guess it's an environmental impact thing w/ the name. ;)
AFAIK, FF used a 'special' version of Maya called 'Maya Gold'. They've worked with Maya since it was Power Animator, and got alot of special additions from AW. Also, keep in mind that Square's got an awesome engineering team of their own that I'm sure tweaked the heck out of the system.

JakobG
07-17-2003, 09:20 PM
Man oh man, these are reaall decent!!!:thumbsup:

RichSuchy
07-17-2003, 10:07 PM
Originally posted by wrs_anim8r
I've known Steve for almost ten years now, and I have invited him to take part in this discussion, but I don't expect he will. He doesn't flaunt his artwork, that's not his style... the only reason he has a website was because his roommate set it up for him.

I've read all of the posts here, and I'm not going to be the one to say this or that in his defense, but I did want to post a portion of an eMail that he sent me before the FF:TSW movie was released...



I hope you had his permission to post that. I wouldnt have done so in a public forum, but that being said, There seems to be much in common with what we were doing on Roughnecks: Starship Troopers Chronicles for TV. Of course we had a tv schedule limiting what we could do, but many of us were striving to take it as far as it could go. And Oon Max Steel, at least with character creation, we took it further than we had on R:TSTC. The closer you get to reality with the look of the characters the more your animation has to be refined, or... ...it screws the pooch.

eYadNesS
07-17-2003, 10:17 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by chach
[B]Steven Stahlberg is a different artist that makes AWESOME humanoids. his url is www.optidigit.com.

I think Steven Stahlberg URL is http://www.androidblues.com/
.
.
.
.
.

eYadNesS
07-17-2003, 10:22 PM
I think Steven Stahlberg is a rare person in this world, because of his techniques in modeling and more...
Really I can say Steven Stahlberg is my first teacher.

auroness
07-17-2003, 10:29 PM
Thats comparation are pretty cool.:p

A have one idea for the
similarity of these characters.

If They modify your characters for diferents movies
but with the same model ??:surprised

ZVAN
07-17-2003, 10:30 PM
WoW.. supeRfOtoReALisTicEsPiaLidoCiOus! :applause:

CENOBITE
07-17-2003, 10:32 PM
The funny thing is that the human brain can tell the difference between a cg face and a real one.

When you want to create a truly life-like face, one thing to take into consideration, is that the human face isnt exactly the same on both sides:

Look at the faces closely, and you can tell they are the same geometry, mirrored. They are too-perfect.

(As in the matrix reloaded, the human mind percieved this perfection and didnt accept it.)

It is also interesting that the Asain faces look far more believeable and realistic than the Caucasian and Black faces. Why is that? Were the modeler's possibly Asain?

:curious:

SEPHROTH64
07-17-2003, 10:35 PM
zooowwwwwiiiieeeeee

eYadNesS
07-17-2003, 10:40 PM
Originally posted by CENOBITE
The funny thing is that the human brain can tell the difference between a cg face and a real one.

When you want to create a truly life-like face, one thing to take into consideration, is that the human face isnt exactly the same on both sides:

Look at the faces closely, and you can tell they are the same geometry, mirrored. They are too-perfect.

(As in the matrix reloaded, the human mind percieved this perfection and didnt accept it.)

It is also interesting that the Asain faces look far more believeable and realistic than the Caucasian and Black faces. Why is that? Were the modeler's possibly Asain?

:curious:


You are right...
I like your comment :)

Laa-Yosh
07-17-2003, 10:49 PM
I agree that posting Steve's email here was not a nice thing to do. It does give some insight into Square's stuff indeed, but it can get the man into trouble. You should've at least not named him as the author of the email.

However, the email makes it obvious that they aimed for photorealism. I'm sorry ThirdEye, but there's not a bit of stylization in these characters... they are clearly meant to be realistic. Pixar makes stylized humans, and DreamWorks (see Fiona and the prince in Shrek). It is only because of the incredible perception of the human eye and brain that most of these models are not realistic enough; but there's occasionally a model that IS convincing, like Dr. Sid or the asian guy some people have mentioned here. However, the Square artists are clearly the best in creating realistic CG humans, and if Mr. Giesler was responsible for the human textures, than he has a very important role in this.

Nima-3dman
07-17-2003, 11:40 PM
wowww, really nice work....

PureFire
07-17-2003, 11:54 PM
You guys are the gods making Osiris. Its by far THE best I have ever seen. I was totally blown away by what you have created and im sure its only gonna get better as time goes by.

Keep up the excellent work!!

G-Prime
07-18-2003, 12:11 AM
Ok every 3D cg asiens looks real but the others, i still see that there 3D.. i dont know why.. but i think the modelers design perfectly the asien peoples more then the others with other race.

thhchx
07-18-2003, 12:51 AM
those work are great works...(whether or not the geometry, the texture, the looks, etc. are based on this and on that...)

Unfortunately, the amount of nit picking is ridiculous!

Within the conditions of a big studio - which can be stressful and demoralising, doing something like that is nothing less of an immense achievement.

IMO, doing these is a lot more than just "hey that is the same texture, hey he's reusing the head, hey that's too real" or whatever.

Nowadays, it's so difficult for people to take a step back and look at these (and the World) in a bigger scope.

Maybe, most of the guys here have attained the level way beyond Steven and all the other artists... guess that justifies it all then...

MAXIMISE
07-18-2003, 01:03 AM
Truely great work.

But as someone who has been pushing for a TV series to be produced with 'synthespians', I have found I agree whole heartedly with "Steve's email" in the way production schedules hamper efforts when trying to fully realise a character. However, its the biz, and I have to say to everyone, practicality and realistic constraints win out over artistic aspirations as a rule. That is until a company says, "Here's 20 million, and payroll for as many people as you require... take as long as you need." ;) Thats an animators wet dream. LOL.

There is a very big difference between those beautiful still renders and a fully constructed scene. In the short, 'Final Flight of the Osiris', alot of it looked great, but I know I am not the only one who saw that many grating, scene breaking things were done in lue of time and budget. And it was far to easy to see where time was spent and where things were rushed.

But thats what stops all of us in the end. Time and Budget. Most of us know that a great animation, that looks real and amazing can be done by one skilled guy and a good computer... it'll take him 5 man-years and ruin his life, but he could do it. And Hollywood does resist it, so much so, a truely realised dramatic piece involving photoreal humans won't happen for a long time. Final Fantasy doesn't count, as it was neither Photoreal or even a fully competant film piece.

We have the tech and the know how, just no market for it beyond kids movies and Special FX characters. Oh well, pays the bills. ;)

ThirdEye
07-18-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by Laa-Yosh
I'm sorry ThirdEye, but there's not a bit of stylization in these characters... they are clearly meant to be realistic. Pixar makes stylized humans, and DreamWorks (see Fiona and the prince in Shrek).


Tamas: this is just what i've read in an article about Final Fantasy characters in a Cinefex interview to Andy Jones, the animation supervisor (sorry for the translation but you know, i'm italian :p ):

"I've seen many people trying to make computer generated humans; and i felt that the more they came closer to real ones the scariest they looked. I realized that we had to avoid it, creating a STYLIZED realism that could look nice and pleasant to people who looked at our models. So even if our characters had to look realistic they didn't have to scare the watcher. And i think we succeeded."

And again in the same article Giesler says:

"we had to balance a ceratin level of realism with a STYLIZED aspect".

wrs_anim8r
07-18-2003, 01:28 AM
Ok, point well taken, maybe posting the eMail was not in Steve's best interest, but it isn't the first time I've gone to the mat for his work. The point of sharing his eMail, as I'm sure everyone here knows, was not to put him in a bad situation, but maybe I should explain my reason's more clearly. The fact that Steve's work is posted on the web for all the world to see, in my opinion, is a great thing... the more exposure the better. But I know him well enough to know that he is, like many artists, his own worst critic. He knows the potential of his work, and to have his images brought into these forums and torn apart without him having a chance to defend them seems slightly unfair. His eMail pointed out more problems than everyone here combined has commented on, but it should also make everyone aware that he knows these areas should have been fixed. I don't think the criticism of his work is at issue here, but the criticism of the industry is still fair game. You can't blame the waiter for the bad cooking, and you can't blame the cook for the bad service.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the largest advocate for criticism, as long as it is constructive criticism... just ask Steve, I spent many an hour tearing up his work, but I made sure I could justify my points, and I never expected him to agree with me. I think most everyone here understands how that works, but as Chach said... if you can do better, serve it up!

I think the eMail also serves another point. There are a tremendous number of people that visit these forums for inspiration, and maybe even a chance to get their work in front of all those in the industry... but not everyone realizes that no matter how extremely talented he or she may be, they don't get the final say in how their work gets used.

Well... I've said my piece, and perhaps I've done nothing more than dug myself deeper into this hole, but so be it...

Thanks.

- Bill Stevens

Indavisual
07-18-2003, 02:18 AM
First off, Amazing work Steven. You are a great inspiration to me. By reading that email I can tell how much you care about your work, as I do. I am only a novice but it will be a great accomplishment for me to reach your level. If you ever want to come down to good ol virginia and teach me your ways, thatd be great :D I was wondering, you going to siggraph? You should have a workshop. And again, great work.

rayz
07-18-2003, 02:34 AM
nice, models very nice :applause:

FFuryFX
07-18-2003, 03:13 AM
the email shouldn't have been posted... but perhaps you already inquired for his permission

therez no point for anyone to defend any crits here I feel, may it be pointless comments on whether it's fake, or used from Final Fantasy. No matter how good the work is, there is prolly always going to be people who don't like it =/ so be it, and if it is constructive criticism maybe it will help the artist.

"if you can do better"... I never liked that comment, one doesn't hafta be a painter to judge a painting. My cg skill sux, actually... I got none... but I can still speak my minds; if ne1 doesn't like it, then ignore me as if I am a dumass...


as for the actual works themselves, they are truly amazing and inspiring. I doubt the artist cares about any of the criticism here, because I believe when you get to that stage, that level of professionalism... your biggest critic is prolly urself... so why defend him when he doesn't even care...
I do wish he can talk more about his works though, instead of just posting pix on his site. A brief description on his techniques or vision will prolly be inspiring too, but he prolly doesn't have the time I guess

somebody mentioned that the Asian characters look a lot more realistic than the other characters. Do other people feel that? I do too and I also would like to know if there is any reason for it? Is it because Asian features are easier to model? or the artist is more familiar with Asians? or...


neways, unbelievable works, but I always prefer to watch not so realistic animations

jeremybirn
07-18-2003, 03:38 AM
Originally posted by wrs_anim8r
I've known Steve for almost ten years now, and I have invited him to take part in this discussion, but I don't expect he will. He doesn't flaunt his artwork, that's not his style... the only reason he has a website was because his roommate set it up for him.

First, I'm amazed by the quality of the texture painting on http://www.stevengiesler.com/ - usually I hesitate to call anyone "best in the world" because of all the unknowns, but it's hard not to say that about Steve for painting human skin maps. I've heard of his stellar reputation as an artist from some people who had been his coworkers at square.

So, the pictures of Dawn in the top Nvidea section, when I first visited there were some nude images or her, now they are taken down - did his company not like the nudes on his site?? Any backstory on who complained?


Originally posted by wrs_anim8r
It's not reality, it's not photo real. It could have been though. The tools are out there, we're just not using them. The quality can be had, it's just nearly impossible with these God-forsaken producers and the length of a feature film.

I sure agree with Steve on that one - if other parts of the process had been done with the same care that he shows in his texture painting, if they hadn't needed to cut corners on sub-surface and reflected light trying to render that whole feature, and so on, they would have had something more believable as reality.

The funny thing is, if the story and animation and director had been great, the film could have been a huge hit even if the human figures were NOT photoreal, it certainly had a unique look and a lot of killer imagery in it, so that side of the production values are not what killed it. It's a shame they didn't have a great story or director on that movie, because I would have liked to see what that amazing production team did in features after FF if they had stayed together and kept working.

-jeremy

igorstshirts
07-18-2003, 03:57 AM
The inside e-mail from Steve was soooo cool. Thanks for posting... It does not get any better than that!

wrs_anim8r
07-18-2003, 04:20 AM
Originally posted by jeremybirn
So, the pictures of Dawn in the top Nvidea section, when I first visited there were some nude images or her, now they are taken down - did his company not like the nudes on his site?? Any backstory on who complained?

The best I can do is only speculation. If I had to guess, I'd say that nVidia raised an issue with it, but I don't know that for sure. The images were in the "Work in progress" section, and rumor has it that he's at Sony Imageworks now, so he might have taken them down because he's not working on them anymore.

Steve's one of those guys that forgets to eat, sleep, and blink when he gets into his work... when that happens, it takes an act of God to get him to reply to an eMail. I hear from him every so often these days, so when I do, I'll see if I can get an update...

karabo
07-18-2003, 06:35 AM
I think this is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen. These are probably the best human models created to date, I have never seen work this good on any of the forums and I have seen people get glowing and wonderful comments for work that is not remotely close to this level of quality and then when work this close to perfection is shown, all people can do it complain about it. I agree that the work is not perfectly photorealistic but then again, it wasn't meant to be, it was meant to be realistic, not photorealistic.
As for the Asian models being the best, I think that is a matter of opinion. I think that the Asian girl is one of the furthest models from realism. The Asian guy is wonderfully done in the still render shown on the first page of this thread but if you look at him in the actual movie, he is probably the most unrealistic model there. There is a world of difference between a still image and an animated image. Human models that look incredible as stills usually don't look so good when animated, it is hard to maintain that realism when the thing is animated. I think this is due to the human body and face being such complex entities with multitudes of minute and subtle movements that can't really be included in the models due to tight schedules and so on. I think it is those little movements that define humans and as such, the 3d models fall a little short of that intended realism. In my personal opinion, the most realistic model, is the model of Thadius, the Osiris' captain. If you watch the movie, I think that his model is the best and his skin texturing is incredible. As an animated figure, I think he comes across much better than any of the other models, the only think I didn't like about him is his lips because in the movie, he looks like he is in serious need of some chapstick!! Other than that, I think that he is the most realistic animated CG model ever created. I suppose it is possible to assume that they spent more time on Thadius than some of the other characters because he is one of the two main characters of the movie but I think he far outshines the Jue model, even though she is also a main character. Jue seemed to me a little too light skinned and unrealistically textured in the movie. The only time you could really appreciate her texturing is when they zoomed in on her eye when she plugged into the matrix because then all her freckels became visible. From a distance, she just didn't quite do it for me like Thadius did. Even in terms of lip-sync animation, I think Thadius was far better done than any of the other characters.
While the CG of Final Fantasy was mind-blowing, I think that the Osiris models are much more realistic and life-like and I think this was intentional. FF is an Anime at heart based on an anime game and not really meant to be super-realistic, I like to call it a realistic anime, it was just an anime that was done in a different way than ususal. Osiris on the other hand is intended to be a more realistic movie because it's not based on any anime series the way FF was and I think you can clearly see that when you compare the two films.

olijosman
07-18-2003, 07:04 AM
Amazing work!! the second head are incredibly realistic!! and I love de japanese caracter girl, delicious!!
subscript: the perfect symmetry does not exist in the human nature, great work!! luck in everything what you do!!:buttrock:

safakoner
07-18-2003, 07:56 AM
what can i say ? :thumbsup: :applause:

RichSuchy
07-18-2003, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by wrs_anim8r
I don't think the criticism of his work is at issue here, but the criticism of the industry is still fair game. You can't blame the waiter for the bad cooking, and you can't blame the cook for the bad service.

With everything stacked up against making perfection in a huge undertaking like a feature film, I think it is more apropriate to be amazed by what was accomplished when so many things CAN and DO go wrong.

womanonfire
07-18-2003, 10:10 AM
the way Steve describes his characters almost makes me cry. really beautiful work by a beautiful artist. no defense is necessary for such amazing work! I am in awe....

CLAW
07-18-2003, 10:44 AM
WOW, fantastic!

Neox
07-18-2003, 01:47 PM
i didn't read every post in that thread, but why does steven have to defend him self? his work is awsome, and i haven't seen anyone saying a different thing...
I've never seen better stuff on the web, maybe there is, but for now he's one of the most talented cg-artists outthere, so if this was meant for me (maybe, dunno...) all i wrore at first was no attack on him, i just wanted to show, that the models from animatrix are not just pretty much the same, they are the same... no offense in that (i guess) and i understand why the reused existing models, i would have done the same thing :)

Alienkissed
07-18-2003, 03:09 PM
Great Stuff... very nice how the milkyness is achieved under the surface of the skin, and how the skin is represented how you would see them in a movie. People are use to seeing actors under lights with makeup on... nice touch.

Most realistic human characters out there that i've seen... raise the bar and make some more!

:applause: :beer: :applause:

ok, ok... i was just shown this:

http://www.amazonsoul.com/MikaExp01.html

very nice as well...

xwork
07-18-2003, 04:02 PM
hi all

is there any body knows which tecnic or program they use
for hair ,short hair or fur shave and...

can any body tell some information

thanks

Neox
07-18-2003, 04:04 PM
i can't say exactly but the modelling software was maya, and the hairs were done in a inhoussoftware, but this could be just rumors too ;)

erikals
07-18-2003, 05:12 PM
Yup, think Neox is right, modelling software was Maya. In FF I think they wrote they'r own program for the skin render, think they did it for Animatrix as well.

Would be cool if we could see some wireframes.
BTW, found this link with FF wireframes.
http://www.pcrave.com/reviews/245.htm

One day, I will make models like this :rolleyes: or...

cgjie
07-18-2003, 05:17 PM
I had seen final flight of the osiris short film before.
But this is first time I see still render,absolute amazing!!!
excuse for my poor English,I hope I can say more,but...

:buttrock: :buttrock: :buttrock:

I would like to know is there many hand paint in the texture?
thanks !

cgjie
07-18-2003, 05:28 PM
And thanks a lot wrs_anim8r for you post!
:thumbsup:

Superb stuff! A true Artist!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

JHarford
07-18-2003, 05:59 PM
Amazing work, probably the best ive ever seen
although ung alufson or whatever his name is produces some outstanding work,



..

EricChadwick
07-18-2003, 06:10 PM
Ulf Lundgren?
http://home4.swipnet.se/%7Ew-43920/ulf/

JHarford
07-18-2003, 06:49 PM
hm seems its him , where on his website is the old man picture? with the hat etc. ill look on spira for it.

JHarford
07-18-2003, 06:53 PM
got it,
not to hijack the thread or anythign as i love this guys work, but heres the picture i talk about\

http://www.softimage.com/Community/Xsi/Galleries/Gal_May/Realism0005lg.jpg

WillJohn
07-18-2003, 07:50 PM
Giesler(sp) didnt do all of this by himself.. Id like to first point that out for people who may look at this and be discouraged because they cant pull anything like that off by themselvs... Someone for example that i believe is a 1 man Creation team is Steve stahlberg(sp)

If you saw that one site of gieselers possibly.. where you could Mouse over the models to see who all worked on it.. it was about 4 people.. 1 person to model the body , 1 for the FACE modeling , 1 for the texturing.. ect...

So to say the guy Alone is the bomb or something.. is taking away from the other people who have worked on the same characters for flight of the osiris...

Steve stahlbergs stuff is great.. and i like it especially because 1 person did it.. I mean.. anyone can assemble a team to make 1 character and have it look damn good...

Also another thing.. who the hell says u cant use the same model and make it into something else?

ThirdEye
07-18-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by JHarford
got it,
not to hijack the thread or anythign as i love this guys work, but heres the picture i talk about\

http://www.softimage.com/Community/Xsi/Galleries/Gal_May/Realism0005lg.jpg


Using photos for texturing makes the work 10 times easier (the result is impressive tho)

AVTPro
07-19-2003, 08:09 AM
That beautiful Asian Girl use to be my girlfriend then one day she just vanished into the Matrix without ever saying good-bye:hmm:

Thanks, now I can just download her. :thumbsup:

Neox
07-19-2003, 10:49 AM
Originally posted by WillJohn
Also another thing.. who the hell says u cant use the same model and make it into something else?

like stahlberg does it nearly everytime? ;)

sure its a difference between working in a team on one character or working alone on one, but a lot of people are always missing one detail... these are different persons with different modelling styles and education, you have to coordniate a team very well to get all those styles to one, one artist alone doesn't have these problems...

wiredgear
07-19-2003, 09:17 PM
Splendid work, I really enjoyed FF and the Animatrix short. Inpsirational work.

The-3D-Data-Labs-Guy
07-19-2003, 10:26 PM
truly amazing work! man I love this..:love: Astonishingly done.. Awesome stuff. :thumbsup:

JDaniel
07-19-2003, 11:07 PM
Whoa! Nice job!
How can a shader make all that variation? Do they use brushes created from images?

dudeguy
07-20-2003, 12:43 PM
Originally posted by jeremybirn
By the way, if you want a quick way to spot 3D renders and tell itfrom a photo, renders that lack sub-surface scattering like this have black edges on the left and right of the bottom of the nose that wouldn't be there on equally bright photos, also the rim light on the left side of all the models isn't back-lighting the ears at all and the character's right ear is black in the middle where it would be glowing red from the rim. Good eye and analysis Jeremy, that's why you are where you are. :thumbsup:

dudeguy
07-20-2003, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by wrs_anim8r
I've known Steve for almost ten years now, and I have invited him to take part in this discussion, but I don't expect he will. He doesn't flaunt his artwork, that's not his style... the only reason he has a website was because his roommate set it up for him.

I've read all of the posts here, and I'm not going to be the one to say this or that in his defense, but I did want to post a portion of an eMail that he sent me before the FF:TSW movie was released...

Steve wrote:
-- snip --

It's been an uphill battle, nearly everything I've been through in the last three years. Well, maybe "battle" doesn't even begin to explain the war I've survived out here. But I have survived, and it looks as if I might come out of this thing with golden turds. As Lead Character Artist, I think I have one of the better credits for the movie, as it's visually pretty amazing and the novelty is indeed with the characters.
It's not reality, it's not photo real. It could have been though. The tools are out there, we're just not using them. The quality can be had, it's just nearly impossible with these God-forsaken producers and the length of a feature film. Radiosity, didn't use it, need it, desperately. Muscle simulation for face and body, didn't use it, need it. Yes, this all means that render and computation times are far less than they would have been, BUT, it also means that the artists went to new levels of suffering to acquire nearly impossible goals; And we came close my friend, on many occasions.

-- snip --

It could have been something much more than it is, but our hands were tied. My images were very often so real that people mistook then as photos, in my lighting, without animation. But, that isn't the reality of production; Everything I created was handed off, often times to someone with a little less heart, not quite the smae eye, under major time pressures. I myself was persecuted time and time again for improving things constantly when so many people just wanted to get it done. It's a shame, but you'll never see so much of the work I did. The detail in the facial sculptures, the subtleties of fine wrinkles, the pimples, freckles, large range of colors over facial texture, the pores, individual hairs on eyelashes and eyebrows, the tears, slivers of highlight on the bottom lid of each eye, the softness of peach fuzz, translucent backlighting on every ear, blood vessels, veins, animated furrows and expression wrinkles, an iris that contracts, a pupil that reacts naturally to light, teeth without the CG feature of black lines w/ enamel and tarter, a tongue that appears to have just enjoyed peas. The list goes on and on, and with some characters it was often hard to believe the work would ever be finished. So why is it a shame? Quality, it seems, only goes down from there. Animation I expected to compliment and bring to life, seemed to destroy the natural balance and move unnaturally at times; Sometimes over the top, sometimes not enough subtle twitches.
-- snip --
-- end --

His eMail goes on and on, but they're not my words to post, such as these are not anyone's images to post. But they're here now, so enjoy them...

I can only hope Steve decides to say a few words on his behalf... I'm sure anybody who has worked in production can relate to most of these comments. It's really easy to be critical of the artist, but usually they have more working against them than working for them, it really does come down to the producers/directors in my opinion, a lot of whom don't have an artistic bone in their body and haven't the slightest clue about the amount of work in takes in putting something like this together. Geez, I am a CG artist and I can't imagine the amount of work it would take to put something like this together! To the artists at Square who put their body, mind and soul into the groundbreaking FF/Animatrix, you should be very proud of what you acheived. Simply amazing and nothing short of stellar!

I could say a lot more, but for now I'll leave it at that.

Cheers

yinako
07-20-2003, 05:11 PM
Did I mention I worshiped Final Fantasy:TSW, and thought was one of the best movie ever made. No I'm serious, I think no body get it but me :). And heres whats missing in this thread:
:bowdown: :bowdown: :bowdown:

JDaniel
07-20-2003, 06:05 PM
So, I take it they were all hand painted. Damn, that must have taken 4ever.
I was just curious cause I thought I saw some symmetrical freckles and some skin depression below belly button where underwear would start on the girl. :thumbsup:

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