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choco22
07-15-2003, 06:07 PM
I just want to know if anyone can post any rigging tutorials since I'm doing everything manually right now like walk cycles and such are just taking a bit long not to mention any kind of complex fight. I have no idea how to create a rig or really even what it means yet ... if someone could help me with some examples I'd appreciate it thanks :)

aurora
07-15-2003, 06:38 PM
The best Free tuts that I have found is a series of vid tuts that FroggyPlatt has developed for us. They can be found at his site at
http://www.digiwonk.com
Click on 'Learn' click 'I Agree... Now Gimmie' this will take you to a page which will link you to a mirror site. This mirror site is hosted my hellbring but was not working for me this morning. Hellbring said he'll check it when he gets home from work tonight so try it later. Well worth the look!
Other great vid tuts are Dan Ablan's Character Builder by Class on Demand, and Larry the SplineGod's series. Theres also the very much recommended Character animation book by Timothy Albee. If you plan on following the making of Timothy's 'Ghost Warrior' short I really recommend looking into this book.
Past that I'm sure many others will recommand some sites. You can also do a seach in this forum under rigging for many more links.
Good Luck:)

SplineGod
07-15-2003, 08:28 PM
Thanks Aurora,
Im running a special on my character series during siggraph (until end of Aug). Any module for $150.00. Each module still comes with online support for as long as youre taking the course (theyre self paced). Just the rigging module is 15 hours of material and covers rigging in great detail. Add in the online support and theres no reason why you cant be up and rigging in no time. :)
Check it out HERE (http://www.3dtraiiningonline.com/professionalcharacterseries.htm)

Remi
07-15-2003, 09:26 PM
Desktop Images has the DVD set of Todd Grimes stuff...very cool and very powerful...check those out too.:)

scotttygett
07-15-2003, 09:27 PM
You're asking about rigging, but your problem is animation. A very good question.

There is a DNA lower body rig in the Scenes inventory: Features/Inverse Kinematics/DNA/Boxy Bob. I think if Newtek made a DivX of anybody actually using this rig to animate, it might sell a few copies of LightWave. Use the arrow keys on the colored handles and trial-and-error.

You can always load another Scene INTO Boxy-Bob, and sort of "roto" boxy bob to match, for what it's worth. That may help you notice swivelling and bobbing, if not the subtleties.

As far as I can tell, there are three camps of animation: glove work based on puppetry, rotoscoping work -- starting with webcams, and keying from scratch. Shrek was supposedly keyed from scratch. Each has merits, the squirrel character in Ice Age is often on "one's," what we used to call the "Zagreb look."

JohnD
07-15-2003, 11:26 PM
Definitely check out Timothy Albee's book on Character Animation. Awesome rigging tute.

Then there are also "Auto Character Setup" and the "Setup Machine" rigging plug-ins. I haven't used either of them, but have heard nothing but good replies.

roguenroll
07-16-2003, 12:50 AM
Originally posted by Remi
Desktop Images has the DVD set of Todd Grimes stuff...very cool and very powerful...check those out too.:)

these are great, also Lostpencil CDs are great too.

T4D
07-16-2003, 04:56 AM
pull apart this Rig
it's pretty simple setup works pretty good too

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~t4d/LW_RIG.jpg

download here (http://members.optusnet.com.au/~t4d/T4D_Rig_003.zip)

huck
07-16-2003, 07:16 AM
Greetings follow Manhattanite,

May want to look at:
http://members.shaw.ca/lightwavetutorials/Main_Menu.htm
nice site with lots of tutorials, geared towards lightwave but the principal of cg applies to all apps.

Regards
hh

fourd
07-16-2003, 05:15 PM
I bought the LostPencil animation series for LW. Best $100 dollars spent ever.

http://www.lostpencil.com

Donald

jpwilson
08-09-2003, 03:46 AM
Originally posted by choco22
I just want to know if anyone can post any rigging tutorials since I'm doing everything manually right now like walk cycles and such are just taking a bit long not to mention any kind of complex fight. I have no idea how to create a rig or really even what it means yet ... if someone could help me with some examples I'd appreciate it thanks :)

When it comes to rigging your own character, how about automating the entire process?
Rig your character in minutes using The Setup Machine, a plugin for LW 7.5 that will install control systems for spines, fingers, arms, legs, tails, and head's 'n' necks, in any number or combination.
For more details please go to http://www.anzovin.com/setupmachine/setupmachinelw.html
You can even download the demo version and setup up your own character to see how well the plugin works on your own models!
If you have any questions or comments, please feel free to direct them to me at jp@anzovin.com.

Thank you,
-J.p.

fourd
08-09-2003, 04:26 AM
If you automate the entire process than you never learn anything, so when you need IK rigs for things other than characters your stuck.

Besides, TSM isn't really that good in my opinion. It's overly clunky to me and the amount of prework from what I have read and from feedback just seems like more work than creating an original rig setup. I use ACS4, but it's still clunky to me, but the setup is far superior to that of TSM's demo rig imho. After purchasing ACS4, I still made it a point to learn rigging fully, and now I primarily use ACS4 for pose testing primarily, before building my own rigs.

froggyplat
08-09-2003, 05:15 AM
Originally posted by aurora
The best Free tuts that I have found is a series of vid tuts that FroggyPlatt has developed for us. They can be found at his site at
http://www.digiwonk.com


thanks for the plug, aurora. the videos are now located at www.3d-palace.com under "froggyplat's lightwave bumper pack".

jpwilson
08-09-2003, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by fourd
If you automate the entire process than you never learn anything, so when you need IK rigs for things other than characters your stuck.

Besides, TSM isn't really that good in my opinion. It's overly clunky to me and the amount of prework from what I have read and from feedback just seems like more work than creating an original rig setup. I use ACS4, but it's still clunky to me, but the setup is far superior to that of TSM's demo rig imho. After purchasing ACS4, I still made it a point to learn rigging fully, and now I primarily use ACS4 for pose testing primarily, before building my own rigs.

Setting your model up for The Setup Machine is EXTREMELY simple. The only steps which are required are placement of skelegons.
That's it!! Installing skelegons/bones is required for any model, and when you are done, you are ready for The Setup Machine to take over.

If you use The Setup Machine or ACS4 to rig your characters, you are not learning rigging.
However they do allow you to get your character's up and running which then allows you to animate AND learn rigging, without being stuck on how to learn rigging before you can animate your own characters.

Well, I must say, I can't really see how the rig is "clunky". From all the rigs I have used I find The Setup Machine rig to be well thought out and implemented. I am very interested, if you would not mind, in using a rig that you use, that you find to be more elegant.

Thanks,
-J.p. Wilson

Jimstein
08-09-2003, 02:28 PM
I would recommend you to not use skelegons or buying any rigging plugin and do all your rigging in Layout by yourself. Trust me! I have done some heavy rigging sessions for two weeks now in this application and skelegons is out of my workflow. Doing all the rigging with bones in Layout will give you wysiwyg but with skelegons you never know for sure – I ended up having to fix many things manually later anyway in Layout.

zaam
08-10-2003, 12:26 AM
Regardless of how you wind up rigging (in Layout, modeller, with plug-ins, etc . . . I would still check out a book like Timothy Albee's. You'll develop a better understanding of the process before you engage in shortcuts. Everyone seems to gravitate toward their own workflow, so exposure to some of the basic principles is VERY beneficial in helping you establish your own preferred methods. As a side note, ACS4 has worked great for me so far. Weight mapping is another matter, however, that you need to understand, and Albee's explanation is all but foolproof if you follow along. I've not seen any of Larry's materials, but judging from his contributions to this community, I would expect that they are first rate and a good value as well.

Happy Rigging.
Michael

SplineGod
08-10-2003, 02:36 AM
Thanks Zaam. :)
Tims book looks pretty good. I do disagree on a couple of points though. Using weight maps for every bone and using Record Pivot Rotation liberally. I rarely have to use weight maps these days and if I do theyre very simple. RPR is a disaster waiting to happen. Luckily the new ortho tools in layout makes all that a breeze now. :)

Andy741
08-10-2003, 02:57 AM
You may want to try rigging and animating in Messiah:Animate. The new version has something called armatures for selecting controls on your character. It looks pretty cool. That's only if you don't want to do your rigging in Lightwave. I've heard that Lightwave has pretty good tools for animation now.

zaam
08-10-2003, 04:19 AM
Larry,

I remember a comment you made some time ago about there being times that using weight maps was really unneccessary. With the tools at my dispoal now ---- Motion Builder, ACS4, and (soon) LW8 ----- rigging seems like less of a burden. I've had less luck, however, in getting my rigs to work without weight maps, so I always seem to go back to them. Since I consider weight mapping one of the most tedious parts of the process, I would like to see that change. I would really like to know more about situations where I could do without them.

Also, for those situations where they must be used, I am hoping LW8 has some workflow enhancements to simplify the process. I saw so much on LW8 at Siggraph that the subject of maps never came up.

SplineGod
08-10-2003, 04:51 AM
I find that I can get pretty good results just using bones and a fairly high falloff rate (^128). Im not against weight maps but feel that theyre best used as a last resort in most cases.
Ill first add bones, rest them, set subpatch to last and start posing the character to test the deformations.
Once I see where Im having problems Ill try some additional hold bones and tweak things like:
faster bones
bone strength
multiply strength by rest length
rest length (You can adjust bone rest length after its been set and watch it grab or release geometry).
Only when none of this works do I resort to weight maps and IF I do I keep them very very simple. This always works for me.
I find that how the model is set up and how well the flow is defined has a great deal to do with the need for weight maps.

Jonathan
08-10-2003, 11:42 AM
I've become pretty good at rigging with skelegons and actually prefer it to the layout method because without ortho, I find the layout method extremely clumsey.

One thing I do however hope is included in Lightwave 8, and that's more hierarchical dynamics. I would love to have a null in my chain but in lightwave doesn't seem to have true parenting so much of the flexibility with my style of rigging is lost.

SplineGod
08-10-2003, 06:44 PM
Hey Jonathon, I agree. If I didnt have ortho Id probably still be using skelegons. Theyre better then nothing but theres too many "gotchas" with skelegons and the old record pivot rotation.
The version of ortho demoed at sig is just the beginninng :)

Jimstein
08-13-2003, 10:54 AM
How come Newtek or anyone has not released a new version of ”record pivot point” Everyone hates it!!!

OK, I discovered a workaround there I have to export my skeleton to skelegon and then converting them back to skeletons again with a new skelegon reader plugin I found to rest all bone rotation to 0 0 0....

Lets talk about workflow isues here!

Breuer
08-13-2003, 05:06 PM
I keep hearing ortho. What is ortho?

Para
08-13-2003, 05:19 PM
Perform a search for "orthopedics" on Flay, that'll clear things for you.

DaveW
08-13-2003, 07:01 PM
Originally posted by Jimstein
How come Newtek or anyone has not released a new version of ”record pivot point” Everyone hates it!!!


Someone did release a new version of it, it's in Orthopack. So you'll be seeing it in LW8 :)

SplineGod
08-13-2003, 08:39 PM
Originally posted by Breuer
I keep hearing ortho. What is ortho?
Ortho was a plugin that up until recently was available from Irrational Number. It was a series of tools that brought the functionality of skelegons into layout so that bones could easily be manipulated there.
Newtek now owns the code and hired the programmers.
Ortho will be integrated into LW8 and will do far more. :)

Locutus
08-14-2003, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by SplineGod
I find that I can get pretty good results just using bones and a fairly high falloff rate (^128). Im not against weight maps but feel that theyre best used as a last resort in most cases.
Ill first add bones, rest them, set subpatch to last and start posing the character to test the deformations.
Once I see where Im having problems Ill try some additional hold bones and tweak things like:
faster bones
bone strength
multiply strength by rest length
rest length (You can adjust bone rest length after its been set and watch it grab or release geometry).
Only when none of this works do I resort to weight maps and IF I do I keep them very very simple. This always works for me.
I find that how the model is set up and how well the flow is defined has a great deal to do with the need for weight maps.
No weight maps? Please explain in detail (if possible) or point me to a tut that shows how that works.
Thanks
:thumbsup:

SplineGod
08-14-2003, 01:10 AM
One of the biggest myths in LW rigging is that you somehow have to use weight maps. This may be true in other applications such as maya or xsi but not lightwave.
Lightwave bones work right away by simply resting them. A little bit after weight maps were introduced into Lightwave faster bone falloffs were also added. In most circumstances bones by themselves work fine. Usually bad deformations are caused by improper modeling/flow in that area. Other then my online character course Im not aware of any books, videos or online tuts that cover this in any depth. Heres some threads you can check out though:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57043
Theres another thread around where I took someones model, tweaked it, removed the weight maps , added a few hold bones and it worked fine. I forget where that thread is. :)

Locutus
08-14-2003, 06:01 AM
Cool thanks. You're right it's been my experience in other 3D apps that you need to use weights to properly deform a mesh with bones.
Learn something new everyday.
:thumbsup:

SplineGod
08-14-2003, 06:16 AM
Modeling properly is part of the rigging process too.
If the flow is correct it will anticipate how it will be deformed and do it properly.

scotttygett
08-14-2003, 06:52 AM
I am intrigued, because the rigging I learned was 5.6/Inspire.

It's nice that the sample legacy Scenes include rigs where arms and such were not even parented to the torso's of the creatures. When I animate in this way, planting a foot bone that has no parent, I have to marvel at how similar to movies I've seen the deformation looks.

I am inclined to work only with limited region bones though, because I like the idea of mathematical falloff. Seeing those little balloons when I activate a bone,... I think I'm getting misty. Used with the weight map view, and coloring the bones, and inactive bones for the actual joints -- is this easier or is this habit? Using ^128 falloff with three or four other competing things like "normalization" versus having "linear" falloff and being willing to add a tiny bone and enter a numerical value -- go with what works. I revere Splinegod's take.

Is there still a free rig at www.joejustice.org? That one was a lot of fun, as I recall, and I found that I could adapt a variety of models to it by enlarging one bone, then shrinking some points, etc.

I look forward to the inventory scenes in LW 8. I can volunteer my expertise for some Beta retro-rigging examples with MD (lol). I hear that setting up a dynamic mouse ear is the cat's meow...

scotttygett
08-19-2003, 06:10 AM
And I should also mention www.cg-char.com and www.spiceycricket.com which has some very good material and resources that focus on animation, more than rigging.

When I learned bones, I suffered in "the world of hurt," so I am keen that noone go there ever again.

Most bones need to be adjusted, especially for newbies, and it is best to adjust a bone when all of the surrounding bones have had their move and rotation reset. You then adjust the bone that seems in an odd place, but you ignore what you see in the display and focus on where you remember the mesh being, then record bone rest position and rotation, which is a hidden button in the Objects panel for me at 800x600. The Weight display helps a lot (use it in object mode rather than bone mode to see all bones).

When I add bones to a finished chain/skeleton, I just use the "add bone" button, which is also a good way to learn the record bone rest position button. I don't seem to need any of the others.

Breuer
08-19-2003, 01:36 PM
Will Ortho be available to mac-users as well? Surely?

Jonathan
08-19-2003, 05:31 PM
Hey I'm curious about messiah render from an end-user's point of view. How do you think the renderer compares to Lightwave's renderer and what are the pros and cons of using Messiah render. I ask because I want to exlpore different renders to see if I can find one faster and more robust for a reasonable price......,Sure Lightwave's renderer is good enough, but then again, it doesn't hurt to taste around every now and again.

Para
08-19-2003, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Breuer
Will Ortho be available to mac-users as well? Surely?

I'd say most propably since it's beeing integrated to LW instead of just distributing it as a plugin.

SplineGod
08-19-2003, 10:57 PM
Ortho is part of LW 8 now so the Mac version will have it as well.

Facial Deluxe
08-20-2003, 01:14 AM
Howdy there, quickly reading thid thread, just a cool pluggin for skinning you can find here :
http://www.animationsnippets.com/plugins/smartskin/index.html

fastfinger
08-20-2003, 12:05 PM
Modify all bones as you want and save that scene.
open the modeler and execute the Load Bones(Dstorm free plugin) and select the scene you just saved. Save the model. send it to Layout. select the skelegon layer and execute skelegon reader(never do convert skelegons to bones). There you have the bones with the colors and bone names and the right hierarchy you assigned in the layout at first.
Skelegon reader and load bones maintains the right hierarchy colors names as you want. child skelegon must be connected to parent skelegon in modeler.
BUT you dont have to do that just use "load bones" and "Skelegon reader"

madrenderman
08-22-2003, 01:52 AM
i'm not agree, i try both, and find TSM more simple and stable, on acs4 i find too much control, rigid and i fight with my char.
I try TSM, and after few minutes i can work with my char, i can tell what my char must do, and i can do it, without a lot of pain.

With tsm a can work easy with multi legged char, and strange motion, like a char like gorilla, which can walk with leg, but olso on hands, with ACS4 i can do it, but with more difficult.

try with a complex motion, i find on TSM a more versatile setup.
my 2 cents

Originally posted by fourd
If you automate the entire process than you never learn anything, so when you need IK rigs for things other than characters your stuck.

Besides, TSM isn't really that good in my opinion. It's overly clunky to me and the amount of prework from what I have read and from feedback just seems like more work than creating an original rig setup. I use ACS4, but it's still clunky to me, but the setup is far superior to that of TSM's demo rig imho. After purchasing ACS4, I still made it a point to learn rigging fully, and now I primarily use ACS4 for pose testing primarily, before building my own rigs.

GraphX
08-22-2003, 07:35 AM
Maybe I never understood the the use of Recored Pivot Pt. but I never had a problem with skelgons rotations when I convert from Modeler. I did have huge issues w/rotations when I would draw skelgons in different view ports, but found a solution. I would just draw all my skelegons in the TOP view for my model and then place them in my model using the other views. My skelegon rotations would alway be correct when I brought it over to Layout. Isn't that what RPP does?? Regardless I do now own ACS4 and use it, but when I do my own rigging, i never use RPP because of drawing all my skelegons in the Top window first.

Also can't wait for 8!!! :applause:

SplineGod
08-22-2003, 08:00 AM
Yup, all that stuff is a non issue in 8. :)

Emmanuel
08-22-2003, 12:11 PM
I also have problems with skelegons, because I find that when building one side of the skeleton and then mirror the skelegons over to the other side, the rotations on both sides are different when I add nulls in layout and do test poses.Drives me crazy.

SplineGod
08-22-2003, 12:41 PM
I know what you mean. Im just glad that the LW8 workflow is so much better when it comes to rigging. :)

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