VFXWages.com

[thatoneguy]

Volume.

If you get enough sample points it takes more work for someone to skew the results.

[SheepFactory]

How exactly do they verify the accuracy?

Whats stopping someone from signing up and posting fabricated numbers?

[mental]

How exactly do they verify the accuracy?

Whats stopping someone from signing up and posting fabricated numbers?
The site runs on the honor system and a (hopefully) large enough set of data that should (hopefully, again) average out over time. I signed up about a month ago and noticed a handful of hourly salaries for senior positions in the US at near minimum wage. Perhaps if they could setup some sort of auto-pruning system which deletes values that are clearly out of range (though that might just make the problem worse).

Aruna is one of the guys running the site:

http://www.digitalgypsy.com/vfxlog/

I hope the site takes off in a good way. The best of intentions were behind its founding and quite a bit of work as well.

[notlongago]

Another way to skim people`s personal data in my view. On the other hand if you think that this kind of thing will help the workers you are wrong. This kind of database and standardization would only help people on the other side of the isle, the employers. They will benefit more out of this than those who put some personal private data. Especially in these bad economic times, these kinds of attempts wont do good to anyone in the work force, except maybe those who run the site and those who use the lowest numbers to lowball people.

[Kev3D]

What about those people at the bottom end of the pay scale for their experience? I can see this of being of assistance to them.

[notlongago]

Well, if they are that experience they would understand the nature of the work and the business environment. There are no written rules for how much one should make. It is all relative and decided by you and the employer. If you end up getting the short end of the stick, you might want to put the blame on you little bit. These employers are not hiring you for public services, they want to make money and one way to increase their profit is to decrease wages as much as they can. Do not get me wrong I do not support such practices but this is the nature of the business. If your boss is upgrading his or her car every year while your wage is going down, you need to stop for a minute and ask some brutal questions about the state you would are in.

[thatoneguy]

Another way to skim people`s personal data in my view. On the other hand if you think that this kind of thing will help the workers you are wrong. This kind of database and standardization would only help people on the other side of the isle, the employers. They will benefit more out of this than those who put some personal private data. Especially in these bad economic times, these kinds of attempts wont do good to anyone in the work force, except maybe those who run the site and those who use the lowest numbers to lowball people.

This runs contrary to real world studies.

Every study I've seen on salaries has shown that public salary knowledge leads to a rise in wages over all.

Jim: "Bob is making $40 an hour and I'm as good as bob! I want $40 an hour too!"
Bob: "Jim is making $40 an hour now too? I work twice as fast as him I'm going to demand a raise!"

People tend to be very conservative about their worth. They also tend to severely underestimate their value. Seeing comparable positions values ensures that you don't walk into an interview and think making $8 an hour is acceptable when everyone else is getting payed $20.

In fact making CEO salaries public has been suggested as one of the leading causes of the explosion in executive pay over the last decade.

---

Wages play by the rules of bartering. Most people are embarassed by the idea of asking for too much and being perceived as greedy or discarded out of hand. If you know what ballpark you should expect then it takes the stigma out of trying to push the rate a bit. Maybe ask for an extra signing bonus. Then you feel like you're getting a good deal and not trying to cheat the other guy.

[boomji]

People tend to be very conservative about their worth. They also tend to severely underestimate their value. Seeing comparable positions values ensures that you don't walk into an interview and think making $8 an hour is acceptable when everyone else is getting payed $20.


Wages play by the rules of bartering. Most people are embarassed by the idea of asking for too much and being perceived as greedy or discarded out of hand. If you know what ballpark you should expect then it takes the stigma out of trying to push the rate a bit. Maybe ask for an extra signing bonus. Then you feel like you're getting a good deal and not trying to cheat the other guy.


QFA.
Bang on.
+1


b

[leigh]

The fact that wages vary by country, city, position, experience, individual studios, and your own ability to negotiate, means that the statistics on sites like this are frankly meaningless.

[Wiro]

They're not meaningless. You can filter by exactly the same criteria you mentioned. Not of much use yet until enough people sign up tho.

Wiro

[leigh]

They're not meaningless. You can filter by exactly the same criteria you mentioned.

Well not all of them, because individual negotiation skills are not considered, but fair enough. In all honesty, I didn't see any of their statistics because I can't be bothered to sign up to a website just to see what's on it; however, I rather doubt they'll ever get enough users to submit sufficient information to make the site useful.

I'm willing to be proved wrong though. I know I'd never submit my own information, because it's nobody's business but mine.

[mental]

The fact that wages vary by country, city, position, experience, individual studios, and your own ability to negotiate, means that the statistics on sites like this are frankly meaningless.
The site does break down wages by country, city, position, experience and individual studio. What it is lacking at the moment is enough aggregate data.

The main benefactors of this site will be those that are new to the industry, shifting to related industries (games <|> vfx) or those willing to relocate great distances (How did you know about the salaries in California and London? What if you had nobody to ask?). Experienced freelancers should already know what they're worth, what the going rate is for their area and what the story is with local shops. In that sense they will benefit the least.

/edit: It took me 20 minutes to post this reply. I didn't see your last post.

I know I'd never submit my own information, because it's nobody's business but mine.
Baron Cecil L'SexMotorcycle III makes $1,000,000 doing roto work in Florida.

[Aruna]

I've been in contact with Scott at CGsociety to get an ad up, and wasn't expecting a thread about our site. We've been in public beta since beginning of May. Just to ease some of your concerns, head on over to our press release in FXGuide (http://www.fxguide.com/qt/1012/vfxwagescom-launches)to read a description of what we're doing, and where I alleviate some of these similar concerns. There's also a quick capture of a graph that contains overall wages in USD on the US west coast in all professions.

In a nutshell, our aggregate data is compiled from anonymous user inputed wages and salaries.. Sure, our data could be tainted (it is user submitted, after all), but that's the way it is with user generated content. We're diligent about weeding out the bad apples, and right now, there are a couple points that are near 0, for people that just want to see the graph (of course, it only hurts everyone). We are going to kill all inappropriate wages soon, so the median (median IS NOT average) will slowly rise as a result.

The more data we have, the more accurate the graphs will be. If you feel, as an artist, that you're earning what you're worth, or that you don't need to know what the going rate is for a 10 year 3D generalist in another part of the world that you're looking to relocate to, then the site may not appeal to you.

[Remi]

www.salary.com (http://www.salary.com), unless i'm wrong(been known to happen from time to time), they have all that info already. Just sayin:)

[jewalker]

I think sites like this are very important for the average employee. It doesn't help companies at all, the companies already have all of this information already. They know what they pay their employees, and they also know what other companies pay their employees.

I recently went through a salary survey at another site and it said that for my level of experience, education, industry, and location I was getting paid about $10K less than the average salary (which I already suspected). I accepted my current salary when I was hired four years ago because it represented a 50% increase over my previous salary, and I had no idea what the going rate for my position was. This information gives me greater leverage when asking for a raise or negotiating a new salary for a new employer.

FYI... The Animation Guild does a yearly wage survey of its members. Steve Hulett should be releasing the results of that survey in the next couple of weeks. The survey is only mailed to members of the Guild so there should be no skewing of results. Of course this information is only relevant to the animation union in Los Angeles.

Here is a link to the Guild's blog to keep an eye out for the results: http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com
Here is a link to 2008's survey: http://animationguild.org/_Contract/wages_pdf/WageSurvey2008.pdf

[Aruna]

Oh, there's a lot Ryan.. glassdoor.com, salary.com, salaryscout.com, etc. But there's nothing that caters to the 3D VFX Gaming community. Try finding out what a compositor makes on those sites. Or what a Lighting TD or FX artist makes. VES also compiled a wage/salary survey for its members as well a while back.

[notlongago]

A possible conversation between an employer and a possible employee

employer=: Ok it is all dandy and nice, tell me how much you want

employee=: I want 90k

employer=: Well that is too much I doubt you are worth that much

employee=: Well according to vfxvages.com I am worth 120k but I am giving you a deal

employer=: So what? According to the Census Bureau the economy is in deep s..t and we are in virtual depression, people are loosing jobs

employee=:Sorry Census Bureau is biased

employer=:My offer is 50k, final. Are you taking the job or not

employee=: Ok I am taking it. When do you want me to start.

employer=: Cool, there is 2 weeks unpaid testing period, and paid extended screening, and no health care first 3 months. Does it sound good?

employee=: Hey that sounds great.

The reason many jobs are paid low because there are alot of chickens out there that will take any job for any price, I know it sounds harsh but this is a fact. People are not just chickens, they are also sheeps. They will never look for their rights and prefer to keep their mouth shut.

As long as there is no legal backing, these statistics are really not worth much in my view. If you want price standard you need to get a vfx union and I know there are alot of jobless or struggling anti-union guys around these forums. I am not for this or that but just pointing out.


good luck finding your next job based on salary statistics.

[mental]

good luck finding your next job based on salary statistics.
That situation would exist with or without salary statistics. It is up to you as an employee to negotiate for proper compensation. Your entire argument is ridiculoid.

[notlongago]

My argument is that one`s salary would never go up because some site says so. But one`s salary may go down because some site says so.

[mental]

Salary.com: Oppressing people and working for 'The Man' since 2005 :cool:

[aglick]

pointing to statistical average salaries should be just one of many possible tactical "tools in your toolbelt" when it comes to negotiating the terms of your employment.

Do yourself a favor and do a little bit of studying on the topic before you go "blind" into a meeting with a potential employer:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=salary+negotiating&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=salary+negotiating&fp=CGM4k02K5DI

[Aruna]

Like Adam said:

pointing to statistical average salaries should be just one of many possible tactical "tools in your toolbelt" when it comes to negotiating the terms of your employment.

Do yourself a favor and do a little bit of studying on the topic before you go "blind" into a meeting with a potential employer:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=salary+negotiating&btnG=Google+Search&aq=f&oq=salary+negotiating&fp=CGM4k02K5DI

VFXWages is just another tool in an artists toolbelt to help you negotiate a wage or salary for your next job, and accurately figure out what to ask for (at least you're not going into a salary negotiation blind). Critiques, comments or concerns, just ask.

[Imhotep397]

www.salary.com (http://www.salary.com), unless i'm wrong(been known to happen from time to time), they have all that info already. Just sayin:)

Considering we're not allowed to talk about salaries at the risk of being poo poo'd on I doubt anyone even posted salary.com here before. I would say that for salaries for positions specific to this industry, companies, locations and the ever changing titles that are created VFXWages.com will represent a better and more accurate source for people working in this space over the long term. Since it's really more for non-entertianment jobs salary.com gets about as specific as "Artist" as far as I've ever been able to tell.

Being able to "negotiate" a better wage most times directly correlates with actually knowing what a better wage is.

[Imhotep397]

...employee=: Well according to vfxvages.com I am worth 120k but I am giving you a deal...

First...VFXWages is not that general. You can find out, provided there's enough data, what people are making in a specific position at a specific company.

Certainly you could take the job with the lower salary as a "Trial Period Salary" and hope the situation improves and/or continue observing how things develop. Or you could consider some other options recognizing that it's now really illegal in the U.S. to pay two people with the same title and experience two different salaries without significant job performance related reasons that an employer might have to explain in court if it were to come to that. (The Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act (http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2009/jan/30/obama-signs-law-to-fight-salary-discrimination/)) "Superior" salary negotiation skill is not job performance related thus it no longer fits that bill.

You could:
A.) Inform the employer as part of a "negotiation" tactic (bad idea in pretty much every case)
B.) Inform the employer (bad idea in pretty much every case) and not take the job
C.) Just not take the job and continue your search gainful employment hoping to find an employer that doesn't practice wage discrimination if you believe that's the case. Honestly, if you get the sense based on due diligence in researching the salaries that the company is practicing wage discrimination before you even have a foot in the door do you really think it's going to get better once you're in?

The hope is that honestly the more people post information and employers know that the information is public that they will re-evaluate how their pay scale system works if it looks like they are in the "Grey" area. If all goes well, in due time, publicly available information won't expose glaring disparity problems to begin with it will just give people an idea of what kinds of salaries a particular specialty tends to get on average.

[stevopolis]

http://www.jobnob.com/

[vfx]

http://www.jobnob.com/

Some nice info on there if its accurate..

http://www.jobnob.com/digital-domain-salary
http://www.jobnob.com/hydraulx-salary
http://www.jobnob.com/dreamworks-animation-salary
http://www.jobnob.com/pixar-salary
http://www.jobnob.com/the-orphanage-salary

Nice and easy to get to the info.

[boomji]

vfx:Thanks for the jobnob heads up.

vfxwages can surely help aide artists on negotiating grounds.
Good move aruna


b

[Aruna]

Some nice info on there if its accurate..

http://www.jobnob.com/digital-domain-salary
http://www.jobnob.com/hydraulx-salary
http://www.jobnob.com/dreamworks-animation-salary
http://www.jobnob.com/pixar-salary
http://www.jobnob.com/the-orphanage-salary

Nice and easy to get to the info.

:) Unfortunately, you need to make an account to see the below, probably the only difference between us and some other sites. I feel confident that our numbers will be from a more realistic sample. Some of Pixar and DDs numbers are general, and not specific to an actual occupation. Is Digital Artist a Matte Painter? A compositor? etc..

http://www.vfxwages.com/company/digital-domain/
http://www.vfxwages.com/company/imageworks-culver-city/
http://www.vfxwages.com/company/the-orphanage/

The above graphs are aggregates from ALL positions within the company. Our Wages page has the ability to narrow down these numbers to your specific occupation.

or wait..
http://www.vfxwages.com/job_title/compositor/

Remember, the red line is the most accurate. I am very confident that our data is just going to get more accurate as time goes on. We have, after all, only recently entered public beta.

[DoubleSupercool]

I believe a site like this is extremely important to us, especially given we are such a fractured and unrepresented portion of the industry.

Other groups have been in films for decades and have nutted out union agreements for wages, benefits and credits.

The overriding attitude when it comes to CG artists (as it appears to me) is:

"You should feel blessed that we are even paying you to do this kind of thing because it is so much fun and there are so many people willing to do it for nothing."

Excuse the language, but fvck that!

I think it is imperative to know what average industry wages are, ESPECIALLY if you are not a senior, where you have more power to negotiate and "walk away". If you are junior/mid it is usually "Here's the deal, take it or we will get someone else who will be willing to accept a sucky deal for the privilege of working on this project."

The more companies can keep artists in the dark and play them off against each other, the less likely that we will progress as an industry group.

[eek]

If VFX Wages uses anonymous data, why do you have to sign up?

[mental]

If VFX Wages uses anonymous data, why do you have to sign up?
My guess is that it passively limits garbage data. If one user were to spam the site they could simply delete their account and reverse the damage that was done. Also how many people would be willing to sign up just to troll? It wouldn't be worth the effort on their part.

[Aruna]

My guess is that it passively limits garbage data. If one user were to spam the site they could simply delete their account and reverse the damage that was done. Also how many people would be willing to sign up just to troll? It wouldn't be worth the effort on their part.

Yes. This is correct. While the data we collect is anonymous (we can't link the wage you enter to you), we do want some sort of control over our users, and tailor our services to them. Our passive services, services which everyone will be able to look at, are coming soon. Right now it is limited to our job postings, but we are working on some other "free" services for random visitors that don't want to contribute.

[Tim Miller]

It's funny to hear everyone talking about employers like their %$#ing Darth Vader or something.... I used to feel the same way before trying to run my own company. Now I feel like only 90% of them are %#$@ing Darth Vader. :thumbsup:

You also have to consider the company and the work. If it's Sony or Dreamworks then salaries could be higher.....but you could also be laid off when the film wraps. If it's Pixar....well, you'll get to work on great film and having that on your resume will probably get you more money LATER if you decide to leave.

If it's blur...well you get a staff position (we've never layed off) and an atmosphere that is ultra-demanding but the demands are in the service of doing more creative--though sometimes less lucrative--work. And a comfortable and creative workplace. And of course there's the benefit of having a great boss! :thumbsup:

I'm just saying don't forget to weigh the company's philosophy into the equation and see how well it fits with yours. Feeling good about going to work everyday has a HUGE value too.

I would also take a look out in the parking lot to see what the owners or driving or drive through thier neighborhood and look at thier house. If they're living like kings while squeezing the employees then I'd get pissed. Then again John Lasseter has his own &#$ing TRAIN that takes him around his own &%$@ing VINYARD and everyone still thinks he's a hero. :surprised

The loyalty pendulum swings both ways too.... I've seen a few employees over the years who make me feel like I should be more of an an asshole. Luckily the other 95% make me want to be a better man to honor thier commitment. :)

Having worked for lots of people over the years I can honestly say that I never felt "cheated". If I ever felt like I was underpaid I did my best to address it at my next review....which of course was after I'd PROVEN myself and put my money where my mouth was. If you're kicking ass at your job people will notice....kids these days forget that. They want the money first.

Tim MIller
Blur Studio Creative director and resident old fogey

[DoubleSupercool]

Of course there are lots of factors surrounding work environments and wages to consider. Pay could be great, atmosphere could be terrible etc, but I can't see how it's a bad thing to have an informed idea about average pay levels for your position and industry.

[earlyworm]

Critiques, comments or concerns, just ask.

Is it possible to provide a better graph for listing the wages? Currently it's hard to gain any useful insight when a graph has all the data running along the X axis at zero because one rogue entry has listed their hourly rate as $80,000.

I'm thinking that a scalable graph would be handy or (if that's not possible) in addition to the graph, providing the results as text... ie. 0-1 years, min $12, med $16, max $2000.

[danlefeb]

Looks like an interesting site. Unforunately, the categories for company industry are pretty limited when trying to add a new company. I realize its geared specifically for the VFX/3D world, but I'm guessing I'm not the only person out there who does 3D work for a company that doesn't specialize in only 3D/VFX.

[Aruna]

earlyworm: These high listings are usually caught before they get onto the graph, but once in a while they get through, let me know which graph, and I'll check it. Our graphs are updated hourly, IF there's new data, so if someone didn't add a wage after that last high one was checked in, then that graph will contain the discrepancy.

danlefeb: Feel free to add a company that doesn't specifically focus on VFX/3D, but just put in the industry box, which industry you would work for within it. And of course, a description and URL of the company so we can check it against others. Example, there is a US Government company, but the industry is motion graphics, because the government hires out contractors to do their motion graphics work. This way, we can figure out what an average motion graphics contractor to the US government might make. Hope that makes sense.

[Gentle Fury]

A possible conversation between an employer and a possible employee

employer=: Ok it is all dandy and nice, tell me how much you want

employee=: I want 90k

employer=: Well that is too much I doubt you are worth that much

employee=: Well according to vfxvages.com I am worth 120k but I am giving you a deal

employer=: So what? According to the Census Bureau the economy is in deep s..t and we are in virtual depression, people are loosing jobs

employee=:Sorry Census Bureau is biased

employer=:My offer is 50k, final. Are you taking the job or not

employee=: Ok I am taking it. When do you want me to start.

employer=: Cool, there is 2 weeks unpaid testing period, and paid extended screening, and no health care first 3 months. Does it sound good?

employee=: Hey that sounds great.

The reason many jobs are paid low because there are alot of chickens out there that will take any job for any price, I know it sounds harsh but this is a fact. People are not just chickens, they are also sheeps. They will never look for their rights and prefer to keep their mouth shut.

As long as there is no legal backing, these statistics are really not worth much in my view. If you want price standard you need to get a vfx union and I know there are alot of jobless or struggling anti-union guys around these forums. I am not for this or that but just pointing out.


good luck finding your next job based on salary statistics.

This is certainly true in some places....but most of the people I've worked with were usually willing to give me my rate....and when they aren't I don't work with them. Pretty simple. I would rather not work than work for half what I'm worth...since every job is all about getting the next job...so if I accept a 40% cut in rate for this job...the next job will be at the same rate! There is no....well I proved myself now pay me this....nope, it's well last time we payed this. So honestly, if they refuse your rate this time...there will never be a next time...so if you are strapped for cash, might as well work...but consider that a dried well...and it can bite you too....say you are working with someone that is low balling you, and you get a call from a regular client that pays you well.....do you walk out on the lowball job and risk a bad reputation or do you bite the bullet? I was unfortunately in a similar situation recently....not about money, but just happiness of work. I was working on a feature that was falling apart....not really sure about it....got a call from a good client had to turn it down....left that job a couple weeks later regretting having to say no to a good client :( happens sometimes.

[earlyworm]

let me know which graph, and I'll check it.

Sent a PM.

I also just noticed that the graphs have hotspots on them which give the exact figures. It'd be handy to point this out on the page as it's quite useful.

[ubermensch76]

The reason many jobs are paid low because there are alot of chickens out there that will take any job for any price, I know it sounds harsh but this is a fact. People are not just chickens, they are also sheeps. They will never look for their rights and prefer to keep their mouth shut.




QFA. It is true and I have seen people settle for much less when they could have demanded and gotten a lot more.

[jewalker]

The Animation Guild has just posted their 2008-2009 wage survey. This information represents a sample of 25% of all union employees working in the Animation Guild:

http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/new-wage-survey.html
http://www.animationguild.org/2009WageSurveyv1.pdf

[Imhotep397]

The Animation Guild has just posted their 2008-2009 wage survey. This information represents a sample of 25% of all union employees working in the Animation Guild:

http://animationguildblog.blogspot.com/2009/04/new-wage-survey.html
http://www.animationguild.org/2009WageSurveyv1.pdf


Thanks Justin, I seriously didn't even know that that existed. It'll be a great help.

[CaptCook]

Annual salary is one thing. But are you getting paid when working overtime or are you basically working for free after a 40 hour work week? Big studios like Dreamworks, Sony, Disney, etc do pay overtime, but a lot of smaller shops don't. Makes a HUGE difference.

CC

[Imhotep397]

VFXWages is top row stuff which is good news. Hopefully, we can kickstart a new conversation about various things other than specific wages/wage amounts again. Hopefully this will bring more 3D information into the VFXWages information pool.

[Imhotep397]

Annual salary is one thing. But are you getting paid when working overtime or are you basically working for free after a 40 hour work week? Big studios like Dreamworks, Sony, Disney, etc do pay overtime, but a lot of smaller shops don't. Makes a HUGE difference.

CC

I think this why the VFXWages people decided to use an hourly wage and specific companies/positions as a standard. You can tell if you're at one working place or another what the hourly wage is averaged and possibly extrapolate an overtime wage or VFXWages could specifically add in "Overtime" wage category without having to change much about the website.

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