CGTalk - Cinema 4D or LW?

leigh

07-09-2003, 01:44 AM

Actually, the seperate modeler and layout modules are one of the most loved things about the program, pasto. If they combined the two, I'd seriously consider changing apps myself.

It really comes down to personal choice, and I much prefer having the two seperate.

Snickrep, you've been investigating apps for AGES now, I'd have thought that by now you would have made up your mind! Why not just learn modelling now by using a free app? :)

imashination

07-09-2003, 01:51 AM

Originally posted by Leigh
Actually, the seperate modeler and layout modules are one of the most loved things about the program, pasto. If they combined the two, I'd seriously consider changing apps myself.

...to one of the other 3D apps split into two programs?

Its a serious question. If having 2 apps merged into one is enough to make you change, what would you change to, which would make you happy?

ThirdEye

07-09-2003, 02:36 AM

Both the companies will prolly show something new at Siggraph, which is coming in some weeks so wait for Siggraph to see what's coming up. And btw the UVing in C4D is second to none, just check Bodypaint3D out. Good luck!

milqman

07-09-2003, 03:35 AM

I also love the Layout/Modeler integration ;) (or lack there-of)

don't bash it till you've tried it

it really helps you organize your workflow

dfaris

07-09-2003, 03:37 AM

Yuk, the GUI in LW has to be the worst around. I dont think there is one thought given to human factors. I have used LW in the past and just got C4D and in the one day I have been playing with C4D I can tell this GUI is a millions times better then LW's.

Lw seems like a bunch of plugins all tossed together.
Let me say I know people that like the GUI in LW so this is just
what I like and how I work.

Per-Anders

07-09-2003, 03:46 AM

Chaps and chapesses... less bashing. Both apps are good, and each app fits a different user better (thank god there is choice out there).

On the original question. You can't realy expect other users to make your mind up for you. Though if i were you I would wait till Sig to see what each company has up it's sleeves.

The only thing you wondered was about the animation. I would say that Character animation is on a par between the apps, though cinema has soft ik as well as normal ik, it's normal ik isn't as good as lightwaves, but that in all other elements as far as animateability is concerned cinema excells as it allows you to animate pretty much anything, and of course you can construct objects in a fairly non-destructive manner which enables you to animate many many parameters of objects and models very easily, combine that with xpresso, TP, and shaders (try animating a gradient in lightwave for instance) and you've got one hell of a powerful combination.

dfaris

07-09-2003, 04:01 AM

mdme_sadie is correct both apps do a very good job. The Mocca thing seems to put C4D ahead of LW in the animation department but LW does have a working bridge to Messiah and C4D's I think is not working very well right now but maxon and the messiah folks are working on it.

Speaking of siggy has anyone heard anything about what maxon is going to say or show at siggy?

I have heard rumers about what LW is going to show.

leigh

07-09-2003, 04:14 AM

Originally posted by imashination
...to one of the other 3D apps split into two programs?

Its a serious question. If having 2 apps merged into one is enough to make you change, what would you change to, which would make you happy?

I'd switch to Maya, because I really like Maya. The fact is that I love LW as a two program app - I'd hate to use it any other way. I don't have a problem with single app packages though - I learned 3D on Max, and use a number of different programs these days for work. It's just LW that I like seperated into two :)

scungyho

07-09-2003, 05:48 AM

I think that both Cinema and Lightwave are very good programs but I do think that Lightwave's Mac support pales in comparison to Maxon.

I will back these up with some examples. Within the past year we have Newtek losing many people to the company Luxology, one of those being Brad Peebler as well as other Mac savvy engineers. So, we have Newtek having problems in the past 6 months in getting updates out. They released a 7.5b upgrade which was so bad that they informed people to not install it or downgrade to 7.5 if they had installed it.

ScreamerNet, Lightwave's distributed rendering, would break or become buggy with incremental updates to the Mac OS. Some of this could be blamed on Apple but I just don't have any faith in Newtek's Mac engineers or support. With the 7.5c update, Mac users finally were able to get back three tools which were missing for some 2 or 3 years. Why was that you may ask? Somebody had deleted the Mac code for these tools and they just got around to rewriting them.

In using Cinema for the past 6 weeks I feel that the Mac support is as it should be. I don't see any discernable difference between the Mac or PC version. The program is fast and stable. My advice is if you are committed to using the Mac at home, then get Cinema as I think it is the most stable right now.

JamesMK

07-09-2003, 09:08 AM

Isn't simply all the Big Apps really good? Since they are different entities, they will all have some strong points, and some weak.

If you are working on your own - just try the demos and choose by your personal preference.

If you're going to school, choose by what they use there.

If you're working, use what your employer wants you to use.

This is pointless. And if you're going to wait for Siggraph, then why not wait until Siggraph -04 or -05? - I'm sure there's even more cool stuff coming... You will grow old just waiting, while everyone else is simply learning 3D in whatever application.

ThirdEye

07-09-2003, 09:14 AM

Originally posted by JamesMK
And if you're going to wait for Siggraph, then why not wait until Siggraph -04 or -05?

Because Siggraph 2003 will show how's the health of both the companies and it will come in 3 weeks, not in an year or 2 so waiting some days is worthy for sure

fletchman

07-09-2003, 09:37 AM

Hi snickrep,

I use both Lightwave 7.5 and Cinema 4D R8. They are both great programs and they both have their limitations. Choose one that you are most comfortable in. Its not the tool...its the artist. :cool:

LucentDreams

07-09-2003, 09:39 AM

LW has alrewady announced something big for siggraph, maxon as usual is very very quiet. Reason to wait, its only a month away, and what if something drastically changes in one of the apps that makes it either that much more, or that much less appealing. What if One of them included mental ray with it or something for the same price as its current version? THat would sure change a few peoples decisions. or what if LW scrapped the seperate modeler layout, then they'd lose a few sale and gain a few. When your this close to an even where major announcements are made its best to wait
app purchases in the month of july are simply a risky thing to do. A month is not much compared to a year.

JamesMK

07-09-2003, 09:46 AM

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
Because Siggraph 2003 will show how's the health of both the companies and it will come in 3 weeks, not in an year or 2 so waiting some days is worthy for sure
Sure. That is totaly valid of course... I was merely reflecting upon the 'wait-state' as indicated by Leigh earlier - - -
Snickrep, you've been investigating apps for AGES now
- - - but this close to SG-03, of course it would be silly not to check it out first.

draz

07-09-2003, 11:58 AM

Originally posted by Kaiskai
When your this close to an even where major announcements are made its best to wait
app purchases in the month of july are simply a risky thing to do. A month is not much compared to a year.

One of the reasons I decided to buy C4D a few weeks ago (as opposed to waiting after Siggraph) was becuase when I asked if anything new or big was coming up just around the corner I was told that I'd have a 2 month window of opportunity where any upgrades would be available for free. Now I'm wondering if this was just a sales pitch or if in fact people have been able to take advantage of such upgrades in the past.

imashination

07-09-2003, 01:09 PM

Regarding the lw/c4d mac support. I should probably step in here and say that c4d NET also broke with most incremental OSX updates. Apple managed to break just about everything they could find in each update.

I can't say anything about newteks mac programmers or the way it is made, but I can say that c4d is made for mac and PC simultaneously throughout the development process. It isnt a case of making it for one and then converting it at the end for the other.

A lot of people assume that it was a PC app that has been made to work with the mac as an after thought because, well, its what they're used to. the c4d interface isnt mac-like or pc-like. It is a combination of the best bits.

AdamT

07-09-2003, 01:14 PM

I think it's not a bad idea to wait and see what Siggraph brings.

*But*, if the goal is to learn what will most likely be used in college and at your future employment, you'd probably be better off getting Max or Maya rather than C4D or LW.

LucentDreams

07-09-2003, 03:19 PM

Originally posted by draz
One of the reasons I decided to buy C4D a few weeks ago (as opposed to waiting after Siggraph) was becuase when I asked if anything new or big was coming up just around the corner I was told that I'd have a 2 month window of opportunity where any upgrades would be available for free. Now I'm wondering if this was just a sales pitch or if in fact people have been able to take advantage of such upgrades in the past.

not sure how long the window is, but maxon usually has opffered a window of time in which new buyers were able to get free upgrades and such, you'll have to wait to see if there are big announcements and then contact your local maxon office to enquire as to this situation. And as for that peroson who sold it to you, it was hardly a pitch, they can't let you know if anythings coming out unless the company says so, which usually means a press release first, and theres been no mention of anything from maxon for siggraph that I have seen. I was simply saying that all the major 3D apps usually have some sort of announcement or tool or thing to show off. Even if its simply a new demo reel or something.

Boone

07-09-2003, 10:50 PM

Maya? Lightwave? Cinema 4D R8?

TrueSpace is the most powerful 3D app ever created! Its so powerful, ILM doesn't use it because they are scared of the overpowering feature set of Caligari's flagship product!

In the future, Caligari will take over Alias/Wavefront, NewTek etc...even MicroSoft!

Bill Gates, beware!

milqman

07-10-2003, 05:15 AM

Boone, I wouldn't be saying that simply for the sake of those with limited knowledge of 3d :shame:

:shrug:

:applause:

chikega

07-10-2003, 12:58 PM

You can learn the basics of 3d in any program and then transfer that skillset to another - of course, with some growth pains. My first two 3d apps were Softimage (at work) and Imagine (at home) 8-9 years ago! I'm dating myself.

I use both Lightwave 7.5 and Cinema 4d and both programs have there pluses and minuses. And, as some have already pointed out, it really depends where you want to go ... and where you're coming from. If you come from a graphic design background (Adobe Illustrator, Photoshop and the like) it's easier to migrate to Cinema 4d - the bezier curves in C4D actually draw out like bezier curves in Illustartor or Freehand. Has anyone ever tried drawing out a bezier curve in LW - eegads! Even with LW's eccentrities, I use it a tad more than C4d - but I just got R8 and it's looking real good - you can affect edges now.

I, myself, create mainly still images - magazine covers - so they both have excellent rendering engines to this end. If you want to get a job at Pixar ... then make a killer demo reel. Some individuals have been hired for their sheer creativity and not what apps they've used. I can think of a few individuals who used programs like Animation Master to make a demo reel and were subsequently hired by large studios. And how about Rust Boy - this artist got a lot of publicity because he had a vision and what's more astonishing is that he uses a 3d app that's no longer supported, InfiniD 3-d! Anyone remember that program originally from Macromedia?

So, in the end, it's the man behind the machine that counts.

ghopper

07-10-2003, 01:21 PM

InfiniD 3-d! Anyone remember that program originally from Macromedia?

Wasn't Extreme3D from Macromedia ?

artemesia66

07-10-2003, 02:56 PM

Infini-D was from a company called Specular. They ended up getting bought by Corel or Metacreations or somebody, and that was the end of that. :rolleyes:

anobrin

07-10-2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by chikega

If you want to get a job at Pixar ... then make a killer demo reel. Some individuals have been hired for their sheer creativity and not what apps they've used. I can think of a few individuals who used programs like Animation Master to make a demo reel and were subsequently hired by large studios.
So, in the end, it's the man behind the machine that counts.

That was HASH Legend Victor Navrone
who made the short "alien song" and later got hired by pixar
I think he has a credit on "Monsters Inc."

But I agree with AdamT,
if this young Man has definate ambitions for gainfull employment
in the CG industry He should be seriously considering MAX and MAYA

tjnyc

07-10-2003, 03:28 PM

Yes, talent ways in more than what package you use, but knowing an app like Maya will help you not hurt you. Places like Pixar and ILM have their own inhouse animation program, so it doesn't matter as much if you know brand X or Y if your skills are top-notch, but lot of places do use brand X or Y for their work, so it will help you to know X or Y.

I would recommend knowing Maya as a given, not necessarily because it is the best, but because it has a larger penetration of the market in the CG Industry.

I would also recommend knowing a second app like XSI, LW,C4D or MAX. In this case you can decide on a personal choice. I lean more with C4D if you are on the Mac over LW.

Oh, I like the 2 separate programs in LW. I can use the modeler on one of my dual monitor setup with the layout on the other. It works out very well. Don't really know what the complaint or problem really is.

And, GUI is overrated IMHO, all apps should be efficient and easy to use, LW is pretty good in this area, it is not fancy you see what is where and windows and gizmos are kept to a minimal.

C4D is a little too GUI heavy, but luckily maxom was smart enough to allow high customization, so streamlining the UI and workflow are possible.

ember

07-10-2003, 03:45 PM

Most of the high end apps have PLE (can't remember what it stands for) versions which allow you full unlimited access to the package but with watermarked renders, so you can't use it for commercial use.

Hang on, do these allow you to save scenes?

Anyway they sound like a useful way to get an understanding of each app. If your college uses a particular one, get the PLE version, get modelling and then you'll be able to teach them a thing or two!

ThirdEye

07-10-2003, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by anobrin
That was HASH Legend Victor Navrone
who made the short "alien song" and later got hired by pixar
I think he has a credit on "Monsters Inc."

But I agree with AdamT,
if this young Man has definate ambitions for gainfull employment
in the CG industry He should be seriously considering MAX and MAYA

That legend now uses Cinema4D and sometimes he even posts here, go figure ;)

ThirdEye

07-10-2003, 04:03 PM

"Oh, I like the 2 separate programs in LW. I can use the modeler on one of my dual monitor setup with the layout on the other. It works out very well. Don't really know what the complaint or problem really is."

the problem's 90% of the people don't have 2 screens ;)

"C4D is a little too GUI heavy, but luckily maxom was smart enough to allow high customization, so streamlining the UI and workflow are possible"

C4D's gui is 100% customizable, i could show you 100 different layouts, i even made a XSIsh layout, people asked me if it was HDN or what, lol

tjnyc

07-10-2003, 04:54 PM

Originally posted by ThirdEye_01
"C4D is a little too GUI heavy, but luckily maxom was smart enough to allow high customization, so streamlining the UI and workflow are possible"

C4D's gui is 100% customizable, i could show you 100 different layouts, i even made a XSIsh layout, people asked me if it was HDN or what, lol [/B]

I think that is what I was refering too when I stated HIGH CUSTOMIZATION.

ThirdEye

07-10-2003, 05:05 PM

Originally posted by tjnyc
I think that is what I was refering too when I stated HIGH CUSTOMIZATION.

I was just agreeing with you ;)

Boone

07-10-2003, 06:04 PM

I've yet to test the basic C4D R8 demo's standard animation tools...are they any good?

cookepuss

07-10-2003, 07:42 PM

snickrep has been struggling with this debate for over a month now. We discussed this issue of C4D vs LW at length over at CGchat. He seems to still be on the fence. I can't blame him though. When your funds are limited even the student license is a major purchase.

Honestly, I don't think that he'll be happy with any answer he gets. Ask this question in the LW forum and people will clamor in favor of LW. Ask it here and we'll all probably try to sway him in this direction. AFAIK, he's used the demos fairly extensively. I think that snickrep should just go with his gut and pick a program. This might be the first time he shells out money for his art, but it won't be his last. Whether it's a new program or just a new version, he'll be spending money for years to come.

snickrep, just pick a program. You can't go wrong either way. The skills you learn now will be invaluable. 3D programs are more alike than they are different. A skill learned in C4D or LW can easily be transferred over to another program at a later date. It's just a matter of mastering that program's UI and its subtle nuances. It's easier than it sounds.

The tool is only one component of the craft.

You're only 15, snickrep. You've got tons of time before this becomes a career for you. Hone your skills now and they will serve you well for the rest of your life. At 15 years old, the 3D program you choose is really not your most important choice. It's the skills that you learn that are more important.

pit

07-10-2003, 07:53 PM

Listen to cookepuss - best advice you´ll ever get.

flyingP

07-10-2003, 09:08 PM

Originally posted by pit
Listen to cookepuss - best advice you´ll ever get.

Have to agree, there were some wise words spoken there.

mimo8

07-10-2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by cookepuss
3D programs are more alike than they are different. A skill learned in C4D or LW can easily be transferred over to another program at a later date.

:thumbsup:

Boone

07-10-2003, 09:43 PM

Re: SnickRep.

You're only 15???? Crikey, if I was that young I'd go for C4D. I'm 23 and I'm seriously thinking of buying it myself.

I'm running on TrueSpace3.1 at the moment and even though it was first released in 1997, I've learned that its not the package but your basic art, animation skills that will win the day.

I think if you buy the basic C4D package for now, you will have a great start in CG. Just have a go at as many tutorials as you can lay your hands on and keep practicing...

In the end, it comes down to your demo-reel, not what package you have.:beer: