Rigging : Alternative Facial Controls

[LFShade]

Mr. Mills' reel is inspiring a lot of this sort of experimentation:D

I've got my own thing going on the subject, involving a Maxscript-ed panel and ActiveX controls (possibly Flash controls in a future variation!). In this way, getting the +/- axes is a snap; it's figuring out how to properly drive the morphs that proves trickiest. I've got the concept working (to some degree) on a simple sphere with cheesy morphs, but there's obviously a lot more that needs to be considered for a character face of the quality shown in Simon's reel.

I'd be very interested in collaborating on this with someone who has a face model already rigged up with a full set of morph targets. I think I can even deal with a setup that involves combinations of morphs and bones. If anyone's interested, please let me know!

3DZ -
The joystick manipulator might still work, it's just going to require a bit more depth to the wiring technique. You can mathematically redefine how -100 to 100 will be mapped to a MT's useful range by adding a bit of complexity to the expression;)

RH

[bolbacool]

I'm not sure I understand well, but you could try to use a float script to control the morpher. If you can access the values of the bobo's joystick thru maxscript, you'll just have to put in floatscript (for example because i don't know the names and don't have max now to test it):

-($object01.value.x)

So, when the joystick value is negative, the morpher will be positive

I hope you'll understand what i mean, and sorry for my bad english ;)

bolbacool

[Dave Black]

Hey, LFShade. What would you say to using the head in my sig? The one for this month's challenge entry? I could make a morph set for that in a night or 2.

Lemme know if you think it would serve our purposes. If so, gimme a list of morphs you'd like to see. Then I'll get working on 'em and send 'em to you.

I don't have much to contribute, but that is something I can provide.

-3DZ

:D

[LFShade]

How heavy is the control cage, 3DZ? I imagine it's pretty light considering you're an experienced SubD guy. If it's light enough to handle realtime (unsmoothed) morphing in the Max viewports, then it'll be perfect as long as you can crank out decent morphs. Actually, if you don't have time to create a morph set, I wouldn't mind having a go at it! Just let me know:)

I only wish I had something ready to go, as I'm anxious to get this setup into action in Max:scream:

RH

[Reality3D]

I would use reactor controller. Is an ideal for this.

A very fast test(max 5) with that jostick manipulator(haha, its cool!)
http://www.telefonica.net/web/r3d/controller.zip

[sam]

You can manage this with Bobo's joystick manipulator and the wire parameters (also expression controllers on the manipulator will work)

Use the wire parameter dialogue to make two one-way connections to the appropriate morph channels of a target object from the valueX of the joystick

and put either this . . .

tempx = -(valueX)
if tempx<0 then tempx = 0
tempx

or this . . .

tempx = (valueX)
if tempx<0 then tempx = 0
tempx

into the appropriate side of the wire parameter dialogue (the above expressions keeps the value between 0 and 100 when applied to the appropriate channel)

and then repeat for the two one-way connections to the appropriate morph channels for the valueY of the joystick (and change the above expressions accordingly, e.g valueX will now be valueY)

cheers
sam

[Dave Black]

reality3d: You've made me look quite the fool. I can't believe I did'nt think of that. Thanks for that, man! :D

Sam: Brother that's a really great help. I totally appreciete your effort to write all that out. I'm going to give it a try soon. Thanks again!

LFShade: The control cage for that guy is almost too light. It will definately allow for realtime morphing. Without a doubt. Actually, myself, Equinoxx, and magicm are going to be working on a bit of a project ourselves using flash and some voodoo. We're going to be using this head for experimentation as well. If you'd like, I'll be setting up a thread within my forum to discuss topology changes in preperation for morphing. If you'd like to be a part of that process, please let me know. You're also welcome to experiment with morphs on my model after I fix the topology a bit. :D

This could be really cool. Thanks to all who have posted so far. We max users may just walk away with a new bag of tricks afterall.

-3DZ

:D

[sam]

sample file showing joystick hooked to a simple morphing box


sam

[magicm]

The joystick manipulator works great!
I've been playing around a bit with flash to create a simular joystick control. The question is, would you (the animator) like to see the controls appear in a floater (using flash) or directly in the viewport (using manipulators)?

If the latter, the joystick manipulator seems sufficient enough to me, what do you guys think?

I'll post a test-version of my flash-thingy today..


- Martijn

[LoTekK]

Not to sound like a complete idiot or anything, but I seem to be missing a mystery .dll (no .dll description in the error box). Anyone know which one I'm missing?

As for the interface thing, my gut says viewport, but I guess it would depend on what kind of extra functionality or other advantages the flash interface might offer over viewport controls.


To clarify, I should explain that the error box comes up when I try to load up either Sam's scene or the original source joystick scene (and I've copied the MaxScript file to the plugins directory, too).

[magicm]

Originally posted by LoTekK
Not to sound like a complete idiot or anything, but I seem to be missing a mystery .dll (no .dll description in the error box). Anyone know which one I'm missing?

you can either drag the script in the viewport (for one-time-use. the script won't get installed). or you can copy it in one of these:
./stdplugs/stdscripts
./scripts/startup


I guess it would be nice to be able to 'design' the layout of the rollout (Just like the maxscript rollout editor).
Being able to drag a joystick element onto the rollout and wire it to the appropriate controller. and giving the elements descriptive names and such. I guess you'd need a couple of ui-elements, like an xy-joystick, x-joystick and a y-joystick. and maybe even more types of elements?


- Martijn

[House]

Magicm:(love your scripts) -changed my mind bout wanting a popup- Lookin at the joystick manip more, having it as a normal manipulator would be better than using flash.

[Smay]

Converting this method of rigging into Max sounds like a very good idea to me ;). I tried some things myself after I saw Simon´s reel but didn´t know about the joystick manipulator. I will keep a eye at this thread ;)

[Dave Black]

magicm: Let's give the flash route a go. Really. I think being able to place custom controls on a panel would be a really great thing. I think sam and Reality3D have proven that the joystick manipulator can work the way we need, so really a flash interface is icing on the cake.

I've got my model posted on my site for you're review, btw. Magicm and LFShade, Equinoxx should be sending you the info to get there soon. :D

Maybe we could split it like this: I'll provide the model, LFShade can do the morphs, and magicm can code a flash interface? And of course, LFShade will be utilizing my model for his own trials of the technique.

This is going to be really cool, guys.

-3DZ

:D

[Linus Ericson]

I saw demo now first time and I cant belive it, hope you can get someting like that in max and yes go with flash...

[Reality3D]

magicm, how do you call flash, ¿within activex? and how do you obtain the interaction max-flash :?

EDIT: Forget the question :cool:

[LFShade]

I anxiously await the info from Equinoxx, then:D

I was thinkin' that Flash would be a very elegant way to handle the interface, both visually as well as under the hood. I thought a control panel as a dialog wouldn't be too awkward, especially if it could be used as an extended viewport. Not sure about letting the user lay out their own interface, though; that one's going to require a lot of thought. Like how would you provide for the user to hook the sliders/joysticks up to the rig?

This is promising stuff, though!

RH

[Dave Black]

Hey, LFShade, you're PM box is full!!

Give me another way to get you that info.

-3DZ

:D

[LFShade]

I did a little housekeeping - try again:)

RH

[Equinoxx]

LFshade, i mailed you via the forummailer. didn't you get it ??

anyhoo, i'm sure 3dz pm'd you the details now :)

[LFShade]

Hmm...didn't get anything other than junk mail all morning. I wonder how that happened:hmm: Anyway, I'm on board and ready to begin:thumbsup:

RH

[Stroker]

Ever since the monster face rig thread got started all those months ago, I've been playing with a few ideas. I am still working on the skills that go into this kind of thing.

Here is my paltry contribution to this thread.

Blatant mistakes:
1. Started with a face that already has a smile. Bad form. Should have started with a neutral expression. Bad Stroker! Bad! Go lie down!
2. Next to no tweaking on Skin. This is a little more difficult than what I can manage right now. I definitely need more practice.
3. Didn't rig the left cheek. Still experimenting with this, so I didn't feel the need to mess up both sides of the face.

Few other small things.

No, I didn't go with morph targets.
Yes, I used some bones and what-not with Skin.
Yes, I used the joystick manipulator.

Max 5: el_facerig2.zip (http://w3.chrlmi.cablespeed.com/~halmich/ozone/el_facerig2.zip) ~52k

Give it a fiddle and let me know what you think (glaring mistakes aside). Even though the main thing for this thread is morph targets, I am curious if what I've done is useful in any capacity. I'm just a guy in the closet messing around with my own ideas.

[House]

stroker: the link is broken

[Stroker]

Been having a lot of ISP/webspace problems lately. The head-end got blown up twice in the past week due to thunder storms.

I did some cleaning up on the file. I'm currently undecided if I'll post an update.

[CoolmoeDee]

it would be cool to have it as a panel, then you won't have a whole lot of manipulators in your viewport. Either way it's a whole
better to animate facial expressions.

[tonygib]

Hay guys,

You know its funny, when I saw Simons little demo I to thought streight away, "Hay, I wonder if you can do that joy-stick type rigging in max". I did plan to have a little play and then ask here, I guess 3DZ bet me to it :)

While the manipulator is good, personally I would also lke it in a rollout. That way you can create a full animation UI, with rollouts for face, hands, etc.

Since my scripting etc is pretty poor too, I can't really help there much, however LFShade, if you would like a second model to test on, then I think I can help. Not saying that 3DZ's won't do the trick, but just in case.

Its an old model now and I haven't done all the morph set ups on my lastest one. But it is all there, full expressions, lip sync mouth shapes, morphs for the tongue and rigging controls on the jaw and eyes. You can see soem of the old test expressions here:

http://antgib.f2o.org/3dimagery/expressions.jpg

Let me know if your interested.

[magicm]

Originally posted by tonygib
....While the manipulator is good, personally I would also lke it in a rollout. That way you can create a full animation UI, with rollouts for face, hands, etc.


I agree that the rollout-thingy is the way to go. The only problem we're going to face is customizability..

While one animator would use a morpher to control a specific movement, the other would want to use rotations or maybe even another type of manipulation.. So, what we need (as the end-user of the tool) is to be able to layout the UI-elements, and wire those elements to the appropriate controllers.

I think dynamic UI design itself won't be a big problem. However, the (two-way) connection between the UI and max (the controllers) is a whole different story (I think LFShade already said this in an earlier post).. Especially because we don't want to use max's native UI-elements (which have some functionality to automate this connection).

Also, saving the UI and loading it back in could be a bit of a problem (again, the layout won't be the problem, but the UI/max connection).

let's stop ranting.. here's a little test i did yesterday.. a simple 'joystick' manipulator. completely custimizable in size, colors etc:

[ edit ]
updated the joystick:

- added a 'checkbox' to toggle auto-reset (like bobo's manipulator)
- added tooltips

[ /edit ]

flash joystick test (http://magicm.cgcommunity.com/temp/joystick/index.htm)


- Martijn

[LFShade]

Martijn, I'm thrilled with that interface! I'm going to be doing some heavy studying to see if I can find a way to handle the UI-controller linking. It's a brave new world for me and Max, and I'm counting on your Maxscript expertise to help make this work as well;)

Can you post or send me your ideas about the UI customization in general? My experience with Flash is minimal, and I have none with integrating it into MXS as ActiveX. I'm extremely curious!

RH

[Dave Black]

VERY nice, magicm. Is there any way to get the joystick to snap back to center like in bobo's manipulator? Like for testing the targets, mouse motion capture? I like the little controls to zero the stick.

This is really great, man.

EDIT: BTW, check your PM box.

-3DZ

:D

[RockinAkin]

I've been working on something like this for the past month or so - coincidentally everyone else has been as well. :thumbsup:

First off - may I suggest that we use the "Anibal (with manipulators).max" file that comes with 3ds max for testing this controler out?

It already has about 10 facial morphs already programmed in... and would be ideal to test this type of Manipulator out since everyone already has the file on their computer...

:shrug:

-DivideByZero-

[magicm]

This is how the joystick works right now:

http://magicm.cgcommunity.com/temp/joystick/joystick.gif

anything that needs to be added/changed?
I'm going to create the same joysticks for just x and y movement

- Martijn

[RockinAkin]

Originally posted by magicm
This is how the joystick works right now: anything that needs to be added/changed?
I'd like for there to be a way to overshoot the max values. Like a checkbox that allows me to drag the point controller past 100%, as somtimes this is handy when animating with morph targets (normal smile at 100% --> extreme smile at 125%)

Just a thought,

-DivideByZero-

[mr3dguy]

Ive been watching this for a few days now. It looks awsome. Cant wait to give it a spin. Id offer to help but I know no flash or maxscript.

[Equinoxx]

this is gonna be great guys :)

my job is somewhat done for now ;) but i'll return once it's time to alpha & beta test this puppy

unless you'd reconsider letting me have a go on the testsubject 3dz ? :D

anyhoo, keep on trucking

gota love this joint effort and the maxcommunity as a whole

[RockinAkin]

Hi All,

I took the libertry of removing all animation and manipulators from the Anibal facial rig that is availiable for download from Daniel M Lara's site.

It should now be perfect for testing out this "2d manipulator".

Download it here. (http://users.starpower.net/kamaelec/AnibalTestRig.zip)

-DivideByZero-

[magicm]

thanks for taking the time to do this "/ 0" !

this will really help me getting things started ;)

- Martijn

[pencil-head]

i made this after being inspired by Simon Mill's reel. i hope you guys can get some use out of it. it still needs alittle tweeking, so go ahead and modify it all you want.

http://www.geocities.com/pencil_head_studios/merinmorph.zip
(right click, "Save Target As...")

[LFShade]

That's actually not a bad go at it, pencil_head! Like you said, there are some kinks to work out, but you found a fairly simple way to acheive the effect:thumbsup:

RH

[RockinAkin]

Wow, a very good start PencilHead, I'll be tearing that file apart for the next few hours trying to figure out how you made it!

:thumnbsup:

-DivideByZero-

[Linus Ericson]

pencil_head that was very nice, how about a fast tutorial here.

[pencil-head]

hmm... i'm not really that good at explaining stuff like that. Read the manual about the reactor controllers. you should be able to figure it out from there.

BTW, i just realised that you can smooth the head and eye movement alot by asigning the reacter controler to each X,Y,X axis. As uposed to asigning it to all of them at once vier the TCB controler.

[tonygib]

Yup, the good old reactor controller, and as you found out, tends to work best as an add on to a Eular XYZ controller.

Now while thats pretty cool, its still no within a rollout UI. I had a bit of a look at that flash control and while it does the interface bit, when I looked at all the properties of it, I couldn't find any values that changed as the circle, etc was moved around. I guess this is our current problem and since I don't know flash or maxscript for that matter, I'm not even sure if its possible to read a changing value from a flash file in maxscript, anyone know?

[Dave Black]

magicm, LFshade, Equinoxx, and myself are on the case. Both Magicm and LFshade seem to think it's possible, and we are currently experimenting and writing a script for this technique. If you have any specific questions, I'd say ask magicm, though he is a man of mystery...so your results may vary. ;)

-3DZ

:D

[mr3dguy]

**cheers on the team**
:applause: :applause:

[tonygib]

cool, thanks 3DZ. No, I don't have any specific questions, guess we just wait to see if it can be done and what the flash file/code looks like.

GO TEAM :buttrock:

[pencil-head]

cool, keep us updated dude.
and let me know if you need any help :D

[magicm]

Originally posted by 3DZealot
...I'd say ask magicm, though he is a man of mystery...so your results may vary. ;)


:curious:

[ReneAlex]

in the web page of Adam Grant (http://members.optushome.com.au/ghra/scripts.htm#max5) is a maxscript that cant make some use here...

Custom Attribute Editor (http://members.optushome.com.au/ghra/scripts/R5/Grants-CAManager.mzp)

maybe we can make a custom UI in the VMS editor and use it like a simple custom attribute wire.

if I m right please advice...

thx

:wip:

[mr3dguy]

bump?

Is this still happening or have you all lost motivation?

[taboo]

Great work from all of you guys.
i am also working exactly the same idea.
i did some test with bobo's manipulators and stuff.

http://www.plastikukla.com/mani.avi

But, one thing that i like to achive is, having the manipulators show up only if you select the object or an helper (and manipulate mode is on). In that way, there will no garbage all the time in the viewport I am slowly slowly trying to construct the same joystick and slider (working upwards this time) manipulator group which will be active and visible only if you select the proper object (object with a proper name and has a morpher modifier in it).

I think Flash Ui component will be great idea but that can only be in a extended viewport or a floater (which is fine with me anyway). But i am really curious about how you can wire an activeX control to a parameter. Can there be a two way connection? i think we have to ask Martijn...

Thanks for everyones efforts.

Ali Tan Ucer

[Dave Black]

Just to give everyone an update, we have migrated our development project over to my forum for better control and easier discussion.

We are making progress. Equinoxx is working on my model right now, and magicm is script'n his heart out. LFShade is about to start doing the morph modeling once Equinoxx is finished editing my model..Expect some updates here soon.

Thanks for the interest and patience, as this is a lofty project.

-3DZ

:D

[taboo]

sorry what is the forum pass?

thanks.

Ali Tan Ucer

[Dave Black]

I'm sorry, but our discussion over there is currently private, but will open up soon. We will post here with our progress, and then eventually the forum will become unlocked so people can view everything.

Sorry for any inconvienence. Most large-scale collaborative discussions on 3DZealot.com Forums are open to all users, so please remeber to stop by and post in some of the upcoming collaborative events.

Thanks, and again, very sorry.

I would like to encourage everyone to continure to post requests, comments, and thier own studies, as we are building this for the community, and don't want to create in a bubble.

-3DZ

:D

[taboo]

great.....
:applause:

i was just being curious.

if you need anything just let us know.
i am a heavy working guy. :wavey:

thanks.

[visualboo]

I would like to encourage everyone to continure to post requests, comments, and thier own studies, as we are building this for the community
And why again is it private?


.... laaaame

[Equinoxx]

Originally posted by visualboo
And why again is it private?


.... laaaame

don't be an ass boo, it was simply closed because it's to early to let the entire cat outa the bag. codestuff and the likes.

it's opened now tho, so go have a looksee and share thoughts :)

[LFShade]

I'm going write a little on behalf of 3DZealot; I hope he doesn't mind.

I would venture that the discussion on his forum is currently private because we're using a very early WIP of 3DZealot's model, and the model itself will be made available through that forum. Try to remember that a model is an asset, and you don't always want to go distributing such assets freely to the community-at-large! 3DZ wants to keep tight control over his creation, and I think that deserves respect.

When some progress has been made on the project, results will be published for all to see. We're not keeping the whole development closed, just the access to the model. For my part, whatever discoveries I make, and any code I write, I will make available so that others can try the methods out on their own models. Good enough?

RH

[foreverendering]

Wow, this thread is simply amazing... Some really cool information being exchanged in here.

I've read up on the Reactor Controller and Euler Controller but I'm still struggling to understand how this works. Also took me awhile to find out exactly WHERE the joystick manipulator is (yeah, I'm a n00b) :)

Can anyone break down for me (even roughly) how you would go about creating a setup as shown in Pencil Heads max file? I see that there are point helpers assigned to various morpher targets... But I am having trouble piecing this together. :eek:

A free sponge bath to anyone who can shed more light on this for me! :love:

[visualboo]

Sorry guys, and thanks for clearing this up for me. The whole reason I posted that is because I thought everyone was trying to help everyone and all of a sudden it was private?

It's all good though. Thanks again guys.

[foreverendering]

Actually after some more hair-pulling I think I 90% understand the concept... The big question (for me) is :

Which controller should you assign to the point helper? There are so many on the list, and I don't know which one would be best... Also I have been unable to determine which controller was used in pencil head's setup.

So my second more general question is, if you want to determine what type of a controller is used on an object, where/how do you figure that out? I can't locate it in track view...just that there is a controller assigned. Right-click->properties and I can edit it but still unsure what type of controller I am editing.

Thanks for any info!

Now, to go digging around in 3dZ's forum! :cool:

[taboo]

i am working on totally cool new manipulator group which gets all of its parameter hooking from Custom Attributes of the object.
And good thing with this one is, it can only be visible only if you select the object and have manipulate mod on.

I am almost done.

now it is time to do the custom attribute setup script for different usage.

[ReneAlex]

welll many moons has passed since this discussion fade away... (that sounds corny) :P

what happen? whats is the status of the private super technical discussion...

maybe you guys dont have time to complete the RH, because of your jobs and stuff.

maybe some brillant guy is doing nothing out there, and maybe the infomation and the setup/rig you guys put together, will help others do great things, maybe if you move this dead tread to the charRIG forum it get new live.. idoknow... maybe...

PD: if you make a search in the forum, about face rigs, facial rigging, etc, you will see that almost all the treads are very long, and finally dont make a concrete result or workflow to doit. no bitching, no complaining... just want to start a nice and productive interchance of ideas.

[CGTalk Moderation]

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