Adobe drops Mac support in new version of Premiere

[Triple G]

I just read the dvformat article (http://www.dvformat.com/2003/07_jul/news/premierenonmac030707.htm) about this, and I've gotta say...it sounds like a pretty lame excuse by Adobe. Apple releases a couple of products which compete with Premiere, now all of a sudden Adobe doesn't like having competition, so they're picking up their toys from the sandbox and going home. :rolleyes:

And this quote from David Trescot, senior director for the Adobe Digital Video Group, takes the cake:
...it's conceivable that Apple could, at any time, make its pro applications available for free to boost sales of Mac hardware, which would cut third-party developers out of the picture entirely. Not that Apple has announced any plans to do so, but, he said, it's possible. And that's enough.

Unbelievable...:thumbsdow

[igorstshirts]

Those guys hog FCP... No-one complains about that. I hope they pull out Aftereffects next. Premiere and AE vc. FCP and combust. That's competition.

[beaker]

If Adobe actually tried to make a product that could compete, they might have a chance. But I guess they just want to keep on turning out crappy, extremely buggy products on a platform where people will still buy it because there are very little options in that price range. They didn't listed to Randy before he left to go create FCP, why should they listen to anyone else.
Premiere has had huge problems since 5.0 over 5 years ago.

[Triple G]

For whatever it's worth, I just sent the following letter to Adobe's customer feedback:

I couldn't find a link to send complaints about lack of platform support, so this was as close as I could come. As a Mac user for over 7 years, I must say that Adobe's recent lack of support for the Mac platform is disturbing to me, to say the least.

First in line was Encore DVD, and now with the exclusion of Mac versions of both Premiere Pro and Adobe Audition, the only digital video product Adobe continues to support is After Effects. It makes me wonder how much longer it will be until you pull the plug on this as well. And hey...why stop there? Why not get rid of Photoshop, Illustrator, Livemotion, GoLive, and anything else that Mac users might find useful?

According to a recent article on dvformat.com, Adobe is pulling Mac support for Premiere because of Final Cut Pro and Final Cut Express, which directly compete with it. So what....suddenly Adobe has a little bit of competition and now it's picking up its toys from the sandbox and going home? Following this logic, why not get rid of ALL Adobe products from ALL platforms? I mean, if Adobe can't be a monopoly, then why bother, right? Eyeon Software's Digital Fusion and Discreet Combustion are both direct competitors of After Effects, so you might as well drop that. Sonic Foundry alone has numerous products which compete with Encore DVD and Audition, so you better get rid of those. Quark XPress is a direct competitor with InDesign; Paint Shop Pro and Painter, not to mention numerous free/shareware programs such as Dogwaffle and Cinepaint are competitors with Photoshop, so why not throw in the towel there, too?

It's sad and disheartening to see a company that started out as a Mac software company, and was once one of the biggest Mac supporters in the world, suddenly turn its back on so many of its loyal users. Buying an Adobe product for the Mac used to be a no-brainer...but based on your recent actions, I've become very cautious and hesitant. I'll definitely think twice the next time I need to buy new software or upgrade my existing applications.

Probably won't do any good, but hey...it can't hurt. :hmm:

[matty429]

Why would Adobe wan't to compete for peanuts...

this isn't an flame attempt...but it seems to me, with the way the market is, competing for the larger platform is an effective and economical decision...

[huydoan.com]

Quote:
"Adobe Premiere Pro for Windows XP is expected to ship in the U.S. and Canada by the end of August 2003"

no support for Mac OS and Windows 2000? Who's the idiot in charge of marketing? Let's just forget the millions of potential customers using a Mac or Win2k why don't you.

[matty429]

Im sure it will run on Win2k...They just won't support it....

[Saurus]

Originally posted by huydoan.com
Quote:
"Adobe Premiere Pro for Windows XP is expected to ship in the U.S. and Canada by the end of August 2003"

no support for Mac OS and Windows 2000? Who's the idiot in charge of marketing? Let's just forget the millions of potential customers using a Mac or Win2k why don't you.

Gee...didn't Apple do that to Window Shake owners. I guess, it was ok for Apple to do to others, but not ok for others to do to Apple. :shrug:

Saurus

[Meaty]

Triple G, get a grip man! Business decisions aren't made because of someone being 'a little afraid of competition'... YEEESH!!! they are based on calculated projections of profitiablility over time. Your arguments in that letter make zero sense. Sorry. :shame:

Unless... do you have access to Adobe's financials with regards to revenues from Mac users? I am guessing you don't.



Beaker... right on!

[The Cross]

It would hurt Adobe to have their video editing software on a mac. Cause anyone that uses mac's for Video editing would use Final Cut Pro.

Final Cut Pro is the better of the two, and it Premeire would most likely go to waste on the Mac.

Keeping Premeire on the PC is the wiser choice.

[Per-Anders]

Originally posted by matty429
Why would Adobe wan't to compete for peanuts...

this isn't an flame attempt...but it seems to me, with the way the market is, competing for the larger platform is an effective and economical decision...

Wrong the major video market is the Mac. Far more macs in video than PC's.

Sometimes people get blinded because they read a stat that says that mac's make up only 2% of all pc's, but you have to remember that at least 90% of pc's are not used fo graphics... in fact 90% are games pc's, and seeing as probably less than 1% of macs are games pc's (they cost too much for most gamers tastes)... well by now you should get the picture.

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by Saurus
Gee...didn't Apple do that to Window Shake owners. I guess, it was ok for Apple to do to others, but not ok for others to do to Apple. :shrug:

Saurus

Saurus, WHERE do you get that assumption? People on all platforms were not pleased about Apple's choices regarding shake. I sure don't mind the competitive pricing, but Shake dropping windows was pretty sad.

Now, imo, Adobe's decision is both profits AND competition... Geez, you have free apps like iMovie and Avid FreeDV, then final Cut Xpress for $299US... Then heavier and heavier hitters like Avid Xpress(Pro) and FCP all the way up to Symphony!

Where exactly could Premiere fit in such a scheme with a $550 app? And now this "Pro" version for $700??

And, BTW, I was a user of Premiere since 5 and purchased 6 last year. Too many headaches and too damn much waiting for Adobe to get back in gear. If Premiere was any good, no one would have switched and spent an additional $999 for Final Cut Pro, would they?

-Tom

[dmeyer]

Originally posted by beaker
If Adobe actually tried to make a product that could compete, they might have a chance. But I guess they just want to keep on turning out crappy, extremely buggy products on a platform where people will still buy it because there are very little options in that price range. They didn't listed to Randy before he left to go create FCP, why should they listen to anyone else.
Premiere has had huge problems since 5.0 over 5 years ago.

Aye...good riddance to Premiere, i say.

[matty429]

Originally posted by mdme_sadie
Wrong the major video market is the Mac. Far more macs in video than PC's.

Sometimes people get blinded because they read a stat that says that mac's make up only 2% of all pc's, but you have to remember that at least 90% of pc's are not used fo graphics... in fact 90% are games pc's, and seeing as probably less than 1% of macs are games pc's (they cost too much for most gamers tastes)... well by now you should get the picture.


soo say that leaves %5 of the pc's for consumer and prosumer video enthusiasts...thats still more than double...how many editing boards come bundled with premiere

[Saurus]

Originally posted by moovieboy
Saurus, WHERE do you get that assumption? People on all platforms were not pleased about Apple's choices regarding shake. I sure don't mind the competitive pricing, but Shake dropping windows was pretty sad.

Damn right it was sad (for the user), but was Apple crying when they discontinued Window Shake version...I don't think so. If I was Adobe, I probably drop After Effects. FCP is slowly creeping in the compositing direction. I wouldn't shed a tear if Apple started crying foul. A company I worked for had window shake license, but they dropped them (for fusion) when the window version was discontinued. It is sad to be a consumer.

Saurus

[Saurus]

Originally posted by mdme_sadie
Wrong the major video market is the Mac. Far more macs in video than PC's.

Sometimes people get blinded because they read a stat that says that mac's make up only 2% of all pc's, but you have to remember that at least 90% of pc's are not used fo graphics... in fact 90% are games pc's, and seeing as probably less than 1% of macs are games pc's (they cost too much for most gamers tastes)... well by now you should get the picture.


Where did you get that stat? I like to see the link to it. I been in the video since 1998, the only time I used mac was in 1998 when I used AF. Since then, I been in 3D with 6 different companies and the only place I see macs was in sound and editing room. Even the editing room, old mac are being replaced by PC. I see 10 pc for every mac.

Saurus

Saurus

[Triple G]

Originally posted by Meaty
Triple G, get a grip man! Business decisions aren't made because of someone being 'a little afraid of competition'... YEEESH!!!

Meaty, my point is...as others have mentioned, that by pulling out of the Mac video editing market, Adobe is essentially admitting that they can't compete due to an inferior product. This should tell them something. Instead of throwing in the towel, why don't they put some effort into creating a product which can compete with FCP? I would definitely consider such a product, due in no small part to the simple fact that it's made by Adobe, and I've grown familiar and comfortable with the interface design and usability of their other products.

No, I do not have access to Adobe's financial records, or to the exact number of Mac Premiere users, but again...if they produced a better product, FCP would probably not have the stranglehold on the Mac video editing market that it does today.

It's not so much the fact that Adobe's dropping Premiere from its Mac lineup that bothers me...it's the apparent trend that Adobe has had lately of releasing Windows-only products. Who says that just because I'm on a Mac that I want to use DVD Studio Pro instead of Encore DVD? Or that I want to use Logic instead of Adobe Audition? I understand that it's a business decision, and if Adobe doesn't feel that it will be profitable for them to compete in this market, then that's their call. I just think that the more software I have to choose from, the better. I don't like having my decisions made for me.

[Per-Anders]

Originally posted by Saurus
Where did you get that stat? I like to see the link to it. I been in the video since 1998, the only time I used mac was in 1998 when I used AF. Since then, I been in 3D with 6 different companies and the only place I see macs was in sound and editing room. Even the editing room, old mac are being replaced by PC. I see 10 pc for every mac.

Saurus

Saurus

you've been in 3d, i've also been in video since 98 though admitedly the first two years were pissing around in non pro environments (ooh my how scary we must be old hands and know everything there is to know ;) ) and all i've seen has been mac's as you yourself say in the video editing room. that was what i was explaining. macs are far from a minority in editing. my point was the frankly silly stat of 2% that some people pulled from the air in another thread may be near correct for overall sales (though last time i saw a reputable stat it was closer to 5%), but it's nonsense for the creative industries, in fact for any specific industry or area. This is regardless of the merits or demerits of the various platforms. PC's will be in abundance in 3D and Games, its only natural if you've been working in 3d since 98 that you'll have only been working with PC's. I don't remember seeing a Mac in any 3D dept, but that doesn't mean that PC's are the only computers in existance.

[Cman]

Triple G, I really like you.
You're the man.
But I gotta disagree on this one.

Meaty, my point is...as others have mentioned, that by pulling out of the Mac video editing market, Adobe is essentially admitting that they can't compete due to an inferior product. This should tell them something. Instead of throwing in the towel, why don't they put some effort into creating a product which can compete with FCP?

Well Adobe claims it would be too expensive for them to make Premiere6 for Mac and compete with FCP. I think it is very true that Apple can ALWAYS under-price their competition because they make money on the hardware. They have large cash reserves and can take a loss if need be to try and control a market (see Shake).
I was very upset with Apple for making Shake Mac-only, as well as FCP Mac-only.


... Who says that just because I'm on a Mac that I want to use DVD Studio Pro instead of Encore DVD? Or that I want to use Logic instead of Adobe Audition?
I believe it's Steve Jobs who says that.
... I just think that the more software I have to choose from, the better. I don't like having my decisions made for me.
Then get off Mac. :D :thumbsup: (sorry, couldn't resist that one!)

btw, I don't hate Macs so much as dislike their policies. I really like FCP and the G5 looks very promising.

[alphatron]

I personally prefer the Avid platform to both FCP and Premiere. Workflow and EDL tools keep me coming back :)

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by Saurus
Where did you get that stat? I like to see the link to it. I been in the video since 1998, the only time I used mac was in 1998 when I used AF. Since then, I been in 3D with 6 different companies and the only place I see macs was in sound and editing room. Even the editing room, old mac are being replaced by PC. I see 10 pc for every mac.

Saurus

Saurus

Saurus, my guess is you're seeing that because those are 3D companies which typically have a inclination to a PC pipeline anyway...

Every editor I've met on music videos, documentaries, sitting in Dreamwork's editing bays, short films, reality tv production companies, Sundance films editors, commericals... all Mac. The only place I've even seen PCs so far was last year at Digidesign's AvidWorld tour (if I'm remembering the name right) on Universal's backlot, and that's because AVID does have a good market on both platforms (despite early reservations they had when FCP was new)...

I wish I could find an easy "percentage of editors using macs" stat for you, but consider this: if Apple, and therefore Final Cut Pro, was not a strong player... then why in hell would Avid keep scrambling on a such a huge scale to bring down high-end features, prices, new products (the latest being Avid's DNA, Xpress Pro and Mojo) to their customer base?

So I think Avid's doing it right and it's benefiting ALL editors. Adobe, for whatever reason, doesn't want to be in that fight, which is a shame considering how they otherwise want to be in the video/DVD authroing game with stuff like Encore...

-Tom

[alphatron]

Actually Symphony has been PC only for a long time until this year. Are you saying that no one uses Symphony? Ever here of an online? Even Media Composer was PC only for a while before Avid brought it back to Macs again a few years ago. I've been to a lot of editing houses and I'd say the newer the systems and editing house, the more PC's I've seen.

It's not like editing on an Avid on a Mac is any better than on a PC.. they just started on Macs, and therefore had more penetration time wit hthat market.

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by Saurus
If I was Adobe, I probably drop After Effects. FCP is slowly creeping in the compositing direction.

Well thank goodness you're not Adobe, because that would be about as wise as chopping off their programmer's arms. Hundreds of television, commercial and film FX/motion graphics houses would lynch Adobe in the streets in a heartbeat.

Originally posted by Saurus
I wouldn't shed a tear if Apple started crying foul.

I guess that's an apparent difference between us... I get sad whenever ANY creative software drops any platform if there's even one person out there willing to support/buy/upgrade it.

I guess that's why I'm an artist and NOT a businessman :D

-Tom

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by alphatron
Actually Symphony has been PC only for a long time until this year. Are you saying that no one uses Symphony? Ever here of an online? Even Media Composer was PC only for a while before Avid brought it back to Macs again a few years ago. I've been to a lot of editing houses and I'd say the newer the systems and editing house, the more PC's I've seen.

It's not like editing on an Avid on a Mac is any better than on a PC.. they just started on Macs, and therefore had more penetration time wit hthat market.

I don't think anyone's saying editing is better on either platform. All I've been saying is that, compared to say 3D, Macs are major players in editing.

Of course I've heard of online. But offline-level editors far out number online facilities, just like more comp artists are sitting with After Effects or Combustion* on their workstations as opposed to an flame*/inferno* suite.

Ask yourself, why is nearly everything Avid from the tiny FreeDV to the monster that is Symphony coming to Mac? Because of consumer demand. The whole Media Composer debacle, at least according to the Avid reps I've talked to, was not handled well and also was about them being a bit pissy because of FCP being introduced... But it did come back.

Honestly, this isn't a "my platform's bigger/better" P.O.V. It's more of a "Adobe, WTF?" argument :D

-Tom

[Triple G]

Originally posted by Cman
Then get off Mac. (sorry, couldn't resist that one!)

*sigh*...I was waiting for that...:rolleyes: :p

Seriously though, I think that the best solution (for me, anyway) is to invest in a PC so I can have the best of both worlds. Not that I'm buying a PC just to be able to use Premiere...trust me, I'm not that crazy...but let's face it, both platforms have a lot of good programs that are not available on the other for whatever reason. Though, I've got to say...moovieboy brings up a good point: It's a bit curious that Avid is bringing nearly all their products to the Mac, while Adobe seems to be migrating further and further away. What it all means, I don't know...but it does kinda make you wonder. :hmm:

[Cman]

:D

Well, as I recall Avid moved away from Mac until they came out w/ OSX - and many complaints from Mac users in post-world. So now that the OS is better, they're going back.
Anyway, I would likely buy a Mac just for FCP, if I needed editing soft. A buddy of mine has it in his studio and it is very user-friendly to edit.
I have never had a positive experience with Premiere - but maybe that'll change with this update.

[Saurus]

Originally posted by moovieboy
Well thank goodness you're not Adobe, because that would be about as wise as chopping off their programmer's arms. Hundreds of television, commercial and film FX/motion graphics houses would lynch Adobe in the streets in a heartbeat

Gee...that's what Window Shake license user felt like doing to Apple.


I guess that's why I'm an artist and NOT a businessman :D
-Tom

Uumm...OK

[beaker]

Originally posted by Saurus
Gee...that's what Window Shake license user felt like doing to Apple.
With shake it was only around 200 licenses on the windows platform. AE on Mac is more like 50,000 licenses. Big difference. Also, all the Shake windows people only had to switch to linux. They could still use the same exact machines they used before. Anyways, users had an entire year and a half to move if they wanted to. Shake 3 is just comming out now, which still doesnt make the current 2.5 license obsolete. I know many people still using discontinued software years after it's death on a platform(Avid Elastic Reality, Illusion, Matador, Kodak Cineon, etc...).

[Saurus]

Originally posted by beaker
With shake it was only around 200 licenses on the windows platform. AE on Mac is more like 50,000 licenses. Big difference. Also, all the Shake windows people only had to switch to linux. They could still use the same exact machines they used before. Anyways, users had an entire year and a half to move if they wanted to. Shake 3 is just comming out now, which still doesnt make the current 2.5 license obsolete. I know many people still using discontinued software years after it's death on a platform(Avid Elastic Reality, Illusion, Matador, Kodak Cineon, etc...).

So...apple can tell companies what operating system to switch to? And you're saying because it's only 200 license...Apple's action is ok. Gee...they are as bad as Microsoft...greedy companies!

[policarpo]

fellas fellas fellas...who in their right mind that is a pro user won't have a PC and a MAC sitting next to them?

business is business and you buy what you need to get the job done.

as far as premiere...after FCP hit the market, Premiere's days were numbered. Avid came out with their answer and even Sonic Foundry came out with theirs (now that they've been bought by Sony, who knows what will happen to Vegas Video).

I personally own a shiny new PB and a PC so I use DF and LW on my PC and my Mac for LW and other stuff. OSX is a great OS and I venture to guess that i'll slowly migrate to it completely out of personal preference. My PC will be my dedicated DF box.

Man I should really moan to eyeon that they get DF on OSX lickety split or else the sky will fall and users will revolt. Please....

What's the big deal? They're just computers. Who cares about who uses what as long as what they do kicks serious ass!

Use what you can afford and exploit it to the fullest. :)

[playmesumch00ns]

Shake 3's very nice, apart from the fact that I can't read Quicktime in it. Why? Because I'm on linux of course!

But Steve Jobs doesn't like us using linux does he? Oh no! We have to pay twice as much for a Shake license, not to mention the fact that render licenses for OSX users are FREE, while linux users must pay nearly $4000 dollars for exactly the same thing!

Like F*CK am I going to switch to OS WANK just to please you Stevey boy! You can sod off! He's worse than Bill Gates.

[Peter Reynolds]

Sour Grapes? Maybe.

But for me its just a sad sign of the times, when accountants are in control. There have really been some lame upgrades lately that look like nothing more than quick grabs for the most $$$ with the least amount of work.

Some people at ILM are still using photoshop 3. I think that says something.

[moovieboy]

Originally posted by policarpo
fellas fellas fellas...who in their right mind that is a pro user won't have a PC and a MAC sitting next to them?

business is business and you buy what you need to get the job done....

Well said!<----Typing this on the NT box next to my G4...

Originally posted by policarpo
Man I should really moan to eyeon that they get DF on OSX lickety split or else the sky will fall and users will revolt. Please...

I agree with the exaggeration, but I'm still of the opinion that it's positive for people to politely ask software developers to make a program/plug-in in their flavor of choice. The sky doesn't fall either way.

-Tom

[Gentle Fury]

ok, this is cute, so NOW if you want to use adobe products you need a windows box, and if you wanna do fx in shake you need a mac box.....YAY let me waste all my money on hardware, because the software developers can't play nice together.

Watch, next all the 3D makers are gonna say......ok, we are only developing for SUN Unix from now on!!!!

[policarpo]

man...no one is ever happy.

I say good riddance to Premiere on the Mac. FCP and Avid Xpress walk all over it anyhow. Adobe realizes that they can't compete with what has become a defacto standard on the Mac for the most part amongst ProSumers and Professionals.

the Linux version of Shake is the same price it always was (as far as i know)...so what if Apple is giving users an incentive to switch to OSX to use Shake for cheaper. OSX is a great platform and environment to work in.

Apple is just trying to insure it's existence by creating excellent tools for the users who enjoy and value using their platform.

If you need to use something that requires a specific hardware software config, just buy it or figure out how to deal without it. We are creative individuals after all.

I don't see what the big stink is about.

Use what you can afford and exploit it to the fullest!

[beaker]

Originally posted by playmesumch00ns
[B]Shake 3's very nice, apart from the fact that I can't read Quicktime in it. Why? Because I'm on linux of course!

Shake on linux has never read quicktime files. This is a NR decision, not an apple one. They could have added quicktime support many years ago. Xine and Mplayer have offered quicktime support for many years.

[B]But Steve Jobs doesn't like us using linux does he? Oh no! We have to pay twice as much for a Shake license, not to mention the fact that render licenses for OSX users are FREE, while linux users must pay nearly $4000 dollars for exactly the same thing!]
If he didn't like linux, then there wouldn't be a linux version of shake.

NR doesn't offer a render only license on the other platforms(Though I wish there was). What people are using is the nongui version of shake to render because it's cheaper. You can still use it in it's entirety to do everything shake does in an interface. It would be nice if they did add version of a render only license on linux for like $250-500 each like DF has though.

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