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aadams
03-05-2009, 05:35 PM
Hi I have been experimenting with the dry media and markers and I was wonder if there is a way to simulate xylene(CHARTPAK) markers on non absorbant paper...

there is a chemical accumulation on the paper that pushes the pigment around.

it is not like watercolor (xylene) is not water based...is a liquid like reaction

right now the markers build up in a way that is sort of like a prismacolor marker

anyone have any luck with this?

JeffNorwell
03-06-2009, 01:16 PM
Way back when in my studio days, we used Rubber cement thinners in small squirt bottles to pool color in combination with the OLD chartpak markers...the benzine kind....
is this what your after?

aadams
03-06-2009, 09:44 PM
yeah that kinda behavior...

aadams
03-10-2009, 02:29 PM
129 views and no ideas...well at least I tried.

Lunatique
03-11-2009, 07:49 AM
That's a tough one.

At the moment, Corel is still trying to perfect simple simulation of popular traditional mediums, and I think until they achieve their goal in that area, they probably won't focus on even more complex hybrid/mixed mediums like the one you described. There are so many different ways mediums can mix and create unexpected and wonderful results, but unless Painter becomes a software that can actually build entire chemical and mineral libraries with corresponding physical and visual attributes, including chemical reactions--like a virtural science lab, Corel could only continue to "fake" these types of effects.

There's one that I think it pretty cool but I don't think Corel will try it anytime soon--to use color pencils like the Primacolor ones with turpentine or similar paint thinner solutions. The solution melts the color pencil and you can then paint with a brush--it's a trick I learned many years ago.

aadams
03-12-2009, 08:25 PM
EXACTLY!

LOL

its not so bad...there are several "potential" work arounds...for instance...if we could "convert" a normal paint layer to a watercolor or and ink layer...

that would be pretty hip...

also if there was a few more settings in the watercolour(imho should be color liquid simulator, because *water* is a dubset of that) like:

a) radial dispersion

b) liquid/pigment separation ratio

c) dryness/reactivation rate(the cool thing about xylene and this technique in my first post was that the xylene "dried" but you could rework it with another wet chart pak.

d) liquid/pigment density....chartpak grayscales had different densities of color....not colors chosen from a color wheel.

that is just for starters...

BUT ....

how could I take a hard media marker drawing and "easily" convert it to water media...at a highly workable resolution?

THANKS FOR AT LEAST PONDERING THIS WITH ME

Jinbrown
03-14-2009, 05:21 AM
EXACTLY!

LOL

its not so bad...there are several "potential" work arounds...for instance...if we could "convert" a normal paint layer to a watercolor or and ink layer...


We can "convert a normal paint layer to a watercolor .... layer":

1. If you have imagery on the Canvas, Select > All, then click inside the selection to lift it to a Layer.

2. Drop the "normal paint layer" to the Canvas.

3. In the Layers palette menu, choose Lift Canvas to Watercolor Layer.

4. Choose a Watercolor variant and Paper.

NOTE: In the next step, the Watercolor variant and Paper you've chosen will affect the result and it can be anything from subtle to extreme, depending on those choices. You'll need to do some experimenting on a test image to learn which combination works best for you, in addition to any brush controls adjustments you make in the Water palette and in other palettes, and any adjustments you make in the Papers palette.

5. In the Layers palette menu, choose Wet Entire Watercolor Layer.




that would be pretty hip...

[quote]

also if there was a few more settings in the watercolour(imho should be color liquid simulator, because *water* is a dubset of that) like:


Another thing you can try on a Watercolor Layer is to choose a Watercolor variant and, in the Brush Controls' Well palette, move the Resaturation slider to 0% and the Bleed slider to 100% to make it work like a dry media blender but instead work to "blend" and move existing Watercolor paint without adding color. You may want to tweak the Resat and Bleed slider settings to get a result you like (if you like the idea at all).


a) radial dispersion

b) liquid/pigment separation ratio

c) dryness/reactivation rate(the cool thing about xylene and this technique in my first post was that the xylene "dried" but you could rework it with another wet chart pak.

d) liquid/pigment density....chartpak grayscales had different densities of color....not colors chosen from a color wheel.

that is just for starters...

[quote]
BUT ....

how could I take a hard media marker drawing and "easily" convert it to water media...at a highly workable resolution?



See steps to Lift Canvas to Watercolor Layer and Wet Entire Watercolor Layer above.


THANKS FOR AT LEAST PONDERING THIS WITH ME

Also, have you tried playing with the Brush Controls' Liquid Ink palette settings? I'm thinking especially of the Ink Type list of options.

Now I'm wondering what can be done by making the finished Liquid Ink Layer your "paint layer", dropping it to the Canvas, lifting it to a Watercolor Layer, then wetting the Watercolor Layer. I'm imagining one could get some interesting effects using this combination of media (Liquid Ink and Watercolor).

If I'm way off base here, just ignore me. ;)


Jinny

aadams
03-17-2009, 10:33 PM
i...i...i...i...

sorry jinny brown I have too much respect for ya...

I have been using painter since 2.0 and I have always been into reading you and others articles...

I am at work now and my eyes are burning from a hellish deadline...but I just wanted to thank you for the insight into possibly helping me with this problem.

it is impossible to buy chartpak markers in costa rica.

I will see if I can work on it tomorrow...(have to sleep in office tonight)

thanks to all and I hope to post results soon


will this be processor intensive?

Jinbrown
03-18-2009, 12:42 AM
i...i...i...i...

sorry jinny brown I have too much respect for ya...

I have been using painter since 2.0 and I have always been into reading you and others articles...

I am at work now and my eyes are burning from a hellish deadline...but I just wanted to thank you for the insight into possibly helping me with this problem.

it is impossible to buy chartpak markers in costa rica.

I will see if I can work on it tomorrow...(have to sleep in office tonight)

thanks to all and I hope to post results soon


will this be processor intensive?


Hi,

Thanks for the nice comment ".... I have too much respect for ya...",

I can relate to your eyes-burning deadline and sleeping in the office, having spent many an eye-burning day and night at my own computer until I actually doze off briefly while sitting here. Yikes! Then it's time to quit before something worse happens. ;)

As to your processor intensive question:

Yes, though hopefully not as noticeable on your computer as it is on my old 2.53 gHz/512 MB RAM computer.

Wetting the Watercolor Layer may take some time so plan for that and watch the water droplet icon on the Layers palette. If it stops, wait a little longer to be sure it's finished. It may hesitate for a few seconds, then continue and it may do this several times before the wetting is actually done. In my own experience, it has sometimes taken several minutes and I just leave my computer to do something else for a while.

Liquid Ink is also processor intensive but it has one really nice feature in addition to the obvious. As John Derry said in his note to me when giving me permission to host his Visual Guide for Liquid Ink at PixelAlley, Liquid Ink is "vector-like" in that it can be resized upward while re-rendering with crisp anti-aliased edges. (Read the exact quote here: Painter 7 Visual Guides by John Derry (http://www.pixelalley.com/tutorials/jderry-guide-pdf-downloads.html).)

I would think this means you can work smaller with smaller brush sizes, then when the Liquid Ink work is done, resize it to the larger resolution/dimensions.

Something similar is also possible with Watercolor Layers (resizing upward).

Read John Derry's Visual Guides for Watercolor and Liquid Ink available on this page on the Corel site, written for Painter 8, more current than the ones at PixelAlley, and still full of useful info:

Painter 8 Tutorials and Visual Guides (http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Corel2/Products/Content&pid=1047022702185&cid=1047022737328)


Take your time learning what can be done with these two brush categories and their dedicated Layers and I think you may develop some very neat new techniques.


Get some rest first, though. ;)


Jinny


#

aadams
03-19-2009, 02:23 AM
what doesnt corel buy you a workstation? lol!

Jinbrown
03-20-2009, 12:27 AM
what doesnt corel buy you a workstation? lol!

Danged if I know! :shrug:

Seriously, I wouldn't expect anyone to buy me a workstation. Used to relying on myself and earning what I'm paid (when I'm paid).

It is a lovely idea, though. ;)


Jinny

aadams
03-20-2009, 01:35 AM
well painter is great software, but if corel isnt buying you tech then they suck arse on a corporate level...

I mean...you are the gift that keeps on giving....they should award you with something for all your effort...you are one of the contributors that help hold their fort down...what is the world coming to?

your advice on the liquid ink led to a fascinating discovery...albeit not marker simulation...it is a different take on the "pixol"

its like metaballs in a 3d paint program...excellent for "underpainting"

thanks again...I will post more when I have time...

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