HARDCORE MODELING!: 80's Cartoon: Orko - Masters of the Universe

[axiomatic]

Here are two different angles of the figure ... I think they show off the potential to develop a version of Orko that's much more sinister / mystic / arcane / arse kicking:

http://www.metrocast.net/%7Etylerm23/images/orko.jpg

http://www.he-man.org/news_images/wave3-4_pics/orko.jpg


The hat and robes remind me of Gandalf in Lord of the Rings. In particular it reminds me of the animated version perhaps because I would have seen it around the same time I was watching He-Man as a kid.

[RageOfAges]

Awesome Choice! This was my 2nd. I`ve always loved Orco and I still plan one day to model him myself.
Can't wait to see your first WIP's.

-Rage

[axiomatic]

Inspiration and Reference Brain-dump:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/wil23/hcr19_orko_refInsp01.jpg


Stuff:

ornate cuffs, high thick collar, shoulders back, head tilted forward, again with the shoulders on robes being important, thin arms and spindly fingers, double pleat down middle of robe, wind pushing robes forward, staff is highlight feature, hat probably can't be too-big, knees and elbows create shape, multiple layers of clothing.

[axiomatic]

I spent some time sketching poses this evening and have come up with something that I think makes good use of orko's main features to create the right mood. I wanted a more combat-orko and hopefully this'll get that across :)

Since there's very little actual anatomy in this figure with most of the modelling having to be clothing, accessories and do-hickeys I've decided to try a different approach to the modelling where I use a very simple blocking mesh and build my clothing around and over that.

Usually I work with smoothed proxy in Maya and just get displacement maps, or maybe +1 sub-div level base mesh, out of zBrush. With all the cloth this time I suspect I'll end up needing more resolution for the cloth though so I think there'll be quite a bit of too-ing and fro-ing involved when I get deep into sculpting especially since zBrush is the weaker area for me.

Anyways, I made a start at blocking out the basic pose. I see this and imagine the robes swirling forward and around the figure:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/wil23/hcr19_orko_blocking01.jpg

[WyattHarris]

Great start. You are pulling reference from all over so I think this will look great when its done.

The pose is a bit more animated than I would expect from Orco. I think that's a good thing.

[iliketrees]

Awesome character!

Very interesting pose to, love your idea of blocking out the pose and building the clothes around him.

Did you mention you may use zbrush for the clothing? Im not sure how this works but was wondering whether you were going to use any kind of cloth simulation or hand model the cloth, maybe even a bit of both? As you know my characters mostly cloth too. I like the trigun ref as well :cool:

[axiomatic]

Update:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/wil23/hcr19_orko_blocking02.jpg

After playing Team Fortress 2 for a couple of hours I decided I should probably start on the clothing. It's very low res right now but it's starting to shape up around the legs, haven't really played with the torso at all yet.

The green seam that's been added in PS is there to show what I'm thinking of doing with the coat. I might split the whole thing further up and make it more parted at the bottom, perhaps with an additional under garment.

I also changed the pose slightly so he's looking more over the staff and the back arm is a little more stretched out - adds some width that I felt was missing.

Might do a little more tonight then sleep (it's 3:30am!)

----

@WyattHarris: Thanks :) It's funny, each of the reference images shown here contains at least 1 thing that i think was part of the image in my head ... even if it's only the curl of the hand as it is with the black robed wizard dude.

The energy level is intended. The reason I want to do more cloth studies is because I think it's a great, simple way to add energy and Ka-Pow! to an otherwise static image :)


@iliketrees: Right now my intent is to hand model the main clothing items in Maya because it'll give me more control. Then I was thinking I'll refine all the ripples, wrinkles and creases in zBrush. Towards the end I was going to have a play with putting in some simulation based tassles and extra bits of material just too keep my nCloth skills sharp.

I couldn't resist the Trigun ref heh. Vash has a high collar and red coat just like Orko :D

[WyattHarris]

I couldn't resist the Trigun ref heh.
Lol, that was the one that stood out the most.

[axiomatic]

Spent an hour refining the basic flow of the robe:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/wil23/hcr19_orko_blocking03.jpg

Mesh needs to be tidier and there's a couple of tri's but no ngons.

[iliketrees]

very nice, it flows beautify, u'll have to teach me. I take it you will add thickness to robe? and will you keep the silky look or are you thinking about a different look/material for the final composite?

[axiomatic]

Glad you like it :)

I do want to add thickness to the robe and use a shader that mimics a heavier woolen type material. Right now I'm using the glossy one as it helps me spot inconsistencies in the shape.

I also want to add hems and cuffs and things like that.

[samartin]

Liking the style already, the blocking out process looks like an interesting idea, might have to use that technique sometime, keep up the good work...

[axiomatic]

#samartin: thanks! :D


little update to topology of the robe, detail getting added. moving upwards to the top now and beginning to add things that make this feel more like a robe and less like a sheet.

also started work on an arm which i'll sew on later tonight.

less than 4 hours in maya so far and i'm already beginning to feel like a tailor :D

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/wil23/hcr19_orko_blocking05.jpg

[simjoy]

the cloth looks good, flows nicely ..

looking forward to the ZBrushing details ..

[sanketpro3d]

nice work so far dude .. luking for more updates... wud like to see how you deal with the face ..

[TheRazorsEdge]

Very nice work so far. I love your references and cant wait to see where you'll be taking this.

Cheers!

[samartin]

Nicely done, love the look and feel of the cloth, very dynamic :)

[axiomatic]

Thanks for the comments and encouragement :)

Some thoughts so far...

Modelling Cloth
Doing the cloth has been interesting so far (it was the main reason I decided to go with Orko). I find it really similar to doing anatomy in that you start caring about the flow of the mesh more and more but the cloth is much more ... free flowing?

A lot of times while modelling the cloth I would look at the mesh and see an edge loop that was stretched and realise that the cloth would also be stretches there and hence would sharpen the edge and add a tautness. The opposite was also true, slack or dense areas often showed me where a fold would be.

But yeah, apart from 1 sleeve I think I'm happy with the cloth and the low-res size of modelling it in Maya.

Once I get this into zBrush I hope to make a lot more reference to the flow of the mesh. I think this will help improove my zB skills as right now I often find it easy to disassociate sculpting from the base mesh ... which I think can be a mistake :)



Posing in Maya or zBrush?
I posed the first hand manually in Maya using standard tools (rotate, move etc) and it caused me a lot of pain. Having said that it was reasonably quick.

My question is whether I should have used the transpose tool in zBrush to handle this instead of doing it in Maya? Or perhaps I should have done a quick hand rig and let the weight painting handle all deformations with tweaks afterwards?

I'm not sure.

I do know that I'm not really a zB pro and have only really used it for painting textures and scupting displacement and normal map details onto a rigged mesh. I haven't played with transpose much and I also haven't played with having multiple meshes in a scene and working with them affecting one another.

This is probably a good time to get familiar with both tools so I think I'll use them for posing the second hand.


What's next?
Order of events will probably be something like this:

Add some details to the staff (just so I can do something else for a while),
Model right sleeve and place the right arm,
Stitch both sleeves to the main robe,
Work the top and back of the robe including the neck,
Work the hat into shape,
Model all the small details like fingernails, scarf and buttons etc.
Then it's all into zBrush for detailing and scuplting with requisit photoshop work for alphas and texture details etc.


Maya to zBrush Workflow
There's been quite a bit of discussion in other threads about the various zBrush workflows so I thought I'd outline my own workflow here. I'll be rendering in Mental Ray out of Maya 2008.

I'll be exporting my models and Objs and taking them into zBrush. From there I'll sub-divide as much as I need to get all the details I want but I don't think I'll be going over 5-6 levels maximum.

In the past I've only sculpted in a single pass. I've then exported out my altered SD1 mesh back to Maya and applied an R32 displacement map to this. I then will usually make my normal map from the SD2. This is so my normal map will ignore the larger changes (which I'm sure the Displacement map will pick up) and still gets all the fine details.

I often over work my mesh in Maya because I'm not a genius with zBrush yet. This is why I still to exporting a SD1 mesh. However if I think that the polycount is still fairly responsive in Maya then I will probably export my mesh from zBrush at SD2 and hence use SD2 for displacement and SD3 for normal map etc.

I generate the displacement maps using Multi-displacement 3 and the Normal using zMapper.

In Maya I'm currently using a Mental Ray sub-div approximation node set to Spatial; min:3 max:5, length:0.1. In the past I've had lots of trouble tweaking the approximation nodes settings and keeping render times reasonable. For whatever reason I usually end up having to compromise and use a Parametric approx node with 2-4 sub-divisions. I'm really hoping to avoid that this time if for no other reason than I'm looking for a still image as opposed to HD animation (my usual output).

I've used this method for a while now and it's pretty robust.

The biggest problem I usually face is that I want texture maps that are massive because I want to be able to upscale for facial close ups and the like. In the past this has been because I usually use a single UV map for the whole body but I might try having multiple maps this time round, especially since the creature breaks up into geometry pieces quite easilly.

So yeah, not sure if that is useful to anyone else but it helps me get my mind around where I'm at and where I'm going :D

[axiomatic]

Update: Left hand base mesh in and temp pose.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/wil23/hcr19_orko_blocking09.jpg

[iliketrees]

I didnt quite understand everything you were explaining with your work-process, but it appears you've learnt from previous exerience of intergration with maya and zbrush and your optimizing your workflow for a balance between render times and LOD?

Im interested to know is it vital to create displacement and normal maps? (and if so how does UV's tie in?) Im guessing it is as I cant imagine how my 3d app will handle a head model being imported at a million polys :hmm:

I like the hand a lot, some finger nails like you mentioned (fairly long) will set the hands off a treat.

[axiomatic]

Im interested to know is it vital to create displacement and normal maps? (and if so how does UV's tie in?) Im guessing it is as I cant imagine how my 3d app will handle a head model being imported at a million polys :hmm:

As you suggested above, this is a balancing act.

Mental Ray changes the low res mesh into a hi res mesh at render time. The approximation node I mentioned above basically changes the way MR subdivides affecting, among other things, the number of times to the mesh is subdivided. The more times the mesh is subdivided the more work MR has to do working out shadows and that sort of thing because geomtry changes affect the way shadows are cast and bounced around the scene.

Displacement maps in MR work at a polygon level so that you need MR to divide your mesh up enough to mimic the subdivision level you were using in zBrush.

Normal maps however work at a pixel level (i think?) but they don't change the geometry and so they can pretty much be ignored by the rest of the scene.

Basically what this means is that you need enough resolution (both polygon and pixel res) in your displacement to cover everything that requires a significant geomtry change but probably no more than that.

However ... because displacement maps only work down to the level of polygons after MR subdivides them you can actually have too much information in your displacement map. At the end of the day each polygone only gets 1 'displacement number' assigned too it, so it only really needs 1 pixel to represent it on your displacement texture map.

In terms of UV space I usually lay my UV's out by hand. I try to only have quads and triangles and to not have any overlaying UV's because zBrush doesn't like those things. Apart from that I try to have an evenly spaced mesh so that more polygons will have the same amount of physical space and UV space. This sometimes means I add extra loops and mesh detail to get a more even distribution in my mesh.

I hope that helps you because I know it helps me writing it down :)


EDIT:
In terms of usefulness, it entirely depends on what you want. Basically displacement comes down to making life easier for you. So instead of working with 10,000,000 polys you can work with 100,000. This tends to make things much more responsive in most modelling programs.

Normal maps are basically the same thing, you're just trying to get extra detail on your model for little overhead.

If you don't need the detail (a lot of hard-surface stuff is like this - vehicles etc) then you don't need to use these sorts of maps.

[axiomatic]

Update: Second arm and eyes added

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/wil23/hcr19_orko_blocking10b.jpg

[samartin]

Looks great already, certainly feels alive due to the nice pose and weighted cloth :)

[vshen]

The cloth is well modeled well.... gives a realistic look and dynamics at the same time. Love the pose too.

[SteveTsang]

Your rendition of Orko is looking really good, my only crit though is that he looks too serious compared to the comical nature of the cartoon Orko - having said that, the 200x toy of Orko is quite serious but very cool :)

[axiomatic]

Your rendition of Orko is looking really good, my only crit though is that he looks too serious compared to the comical nature of the cartoon Orko - having said that, the 200x toy of Orko is quite serious but very cool :)

Heh. Yeah ... I want a Frank Miller version of Orko when everything is taken away from him and the only thing he has left, is revenge!

Update coming soon ... just getting a quick render out.

[axiomatic]

Quick concept of the staff:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/wil23/staffConcept.jpg


Would love to hear thoughts on where I should go with it. Particularly handle, binding of blades to shaft and the general shape/feel/tone.

[RageOfAges]

You've been doing a fantastic job with Orco, my friend. I love the cloth and apparent passion you have for your mesh.

I often over work my mesh in Maya because I'm not a genius with zBrush yet. This is why I still to exporting a SD1 mesh. However if I think that the polycount is still fairly responsive in Maya then I will probably export my mesh from zBrush at SD2 and hence use SD2 for displacement and SD3 for normal map etc.

I've found that a good rule of thumb for deciding which subdivision levels you should use for your maps are as follows (I generally have a very low base mesh as I mostly work in sub-d):

1)Sculpt to your heart's content. I usually go prety wacky here with tiny details because it`s fun and doesn't have to be permanent if it doesn`t work out.
2)backup your ztool.
3)now examine the silhouette of your sub-d levels from lowest to highest. When you find the silhouette doesn't really change any more, delte highest then export your disp map.
4)undo the delete higher or load your backup ztool.
5)The sub-d levels you ended up deleting should be your normal range, minus 1 level.
ie. your ztool has 7 sub-d levels, you recently deleted layers 6 and 7. For your normal
map, go to level 5, and delete lower.

This way, your normal map takes over where your displacement ends, almost exactly the way it is in zbrush, and you get the best of both worlds: A solid displacement map that isn't too hard on the renderer, and a highquality, highfrequency normal.

*This technique was learned from watching Gnomonology's The making of Jester, so I'd like to credit Alex Alvarez for what I just mentioned. I tweaked the technique a little to better suit my own needs, but it's still mostly Alex's insight.

As for the staff, IMO you should go for something a little more simple, like in the top right image on your reference brain-dump. Again, though, that is just my opinion. I picture something made out of an old gnarled branch, with perhaps a small orb latched to the top or embedded directly into the wood.
Keep up the good work, man.

-Rage

[axiomatic]

You've been doing a fantastic job with Orco, my friend. I love the cloth and apparent passion you have for your mesh.

Thanks :)

I think I'm just enjoying being able to dissect my work. I've been doing freelance for almost a year now after being in a placement where I was discussing 3D in and out every day. The isolation has been killer :(


3)now examine the silhouette of your sub-d levels from lowest to highest. When you find the silhouette doesn't really change any more, delte highest then export your disp map.
4)undo the delete higher or load your backup ztool.

That's a really cool tip. I follow this process as outlined without the deletion. But this would limit the displacement to only the LoD it needs. Thanks!


As for the staff, IMO you should go for something a little more simple, like in the top right image on your reference brain-dump. Again, though, that is just my opinion. I picture something made out of an old gnarled branch, with perhaps a small orb latched to the top or embedded directly into the wood.

Definitely worth investigating I think. Perhaps I'll do some sketch overs of possible staves and see how I feel about them :)

[Geta-Ve]

Hey, this looks fantastic! You have done a great job on the robe, seems very fluid. No crits from me at this point.

:thumbsup:

[Rofideo]

It remids me the mage character In Final Fantasy for game boy Advance.
actualy your character is in midle of it and the orc Cartoon.

Still a cool character but more focused, And teachnicaly its beautyfull. :thumbsup:

By the way Thanks to: TheRazorsEdge Your tips are very usefull thanks for share it

See you later
Rofideo

[TheRazorsEdge]

Great work here and many thanks for the insights into your thought processes. :)

Cheers!

By the way Thanks to: TheRazorsEdge Your tips are very usefull thanks for share it

Not that I would not appreciate the comment, but what did I say here??? I think you probably meant RageOfAges.

[axiomatic]

Thanks to Geta-Ve, Rofideo and TheRazorsEdge for your kind words so far guys. I'm glad that some of you have found the rants and discourse here to be useful (or at least entertaining).

I've had 3-4 days away from the project while I've been working on some other stuff. However I did manage to tidy the topology a bit and get the robe UV'ed by hand and the rest auto-UV'ed. I figure the robe might need me to hit it up in photoshop while the other bits are probably only going to be touched in zBrush.

Anyway, now everything's all imported into zB and I'm about to start sculpting.

For the cloth I found this tutorial (http://www.selwy.com/2009/zbrush-clothes-tutorial/) from Selwy about sculpting cloth in zBrush and I thought some of the concepts, as well as his custom brushes, might come in useful for Orko.

I've also been rethinking the staff and hopefully I'll settle on a design this everning sometime after a couple of sketches. I've been thinking along the organic idea suggested by RageOfAges and think the gnarled wood staff sort of organically growing into and around the crystal might be cool.

I think most of Monday - Wednesday will be taken up with my professional work (I'm finishing up a short film with 4 minutes of photo-real, plate integrated creatures that I've been the solo VFX guy on - talk about intense job!). However I be able to get into sculpting sometime mid-late this week and hopefully be able to finish the character off by the end of next weekend.

With luck I'll have some scans of the staff concept work up (perhaps also some scenery) in 4-5 hours ... we'll see :)

[Oberyn]

I'm really hoping I can do as much justice to my cloth when I get to that point as you have. It looks fantastic. :D

[TheRazorsEdge]

I'm glad that some of you have found the rants and discourse here to be useful (or at least entertaining).

Quite useful indeed, so keep 'em coming. Thanks also for that link to the tut by selwy. That might come in handy and some point. :)

I really like the idea of the organic staff and look forward to seeing your concept.

Cheers and good luck on your project!

[RageOfAges]

Here's a staff I thought would be well suited to an orco type character.

http://www.freakygaming.com/gallery/game_art/guild_wars/female_mage.jpg

-RAge

[axiomatic]

Hey that's really similar to what I've been thinking about. Great reference, thanks!

I sort of liked the shard/crystal from the last staff I posted so I wanted a wooden gnarled staff but at the end it sort of grows into the crystal ... perhaps suggesting the staff and crystal are sort of symbiotic.

I'm just finishing some renders of the cloth after sculpting in zBrush but then (perhaps after 45minutes of playing Team Fortress 2 *grin*) I'll sketch out the staff digitally and post it up here.

Thanks again for going to the trouble Rage, it's awesome of you :)

[axiomatic]

Quick Update:

First play with the robe in zBrush. Not sure about a lot of things at this point and there are some problem areas. I think I need to pick a material weight and springiness and stick with it - right now I sort of bounce around as I see how cool little details of cloth can look.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y172/wil23/hcr19_orko_blocking18.jpg

There are some obvious things I need to fix, plus some odd buggies. Probably means some retopo around the neck area. Again. :(

[SteveTsang]

The updates are looking good :) Will you be adding more colour to the final piece like the "O" on his chest? At the moment the robe by his feet area seems a bit lost without something grounding it, a seam maybe?

[axiomatic]

The updates are looking good :) Will you be adding more colour to the final piece like the "O" on his chest? At the moment the robe by his feet area seems a bit lost without something grounding it, a seam maybe?

An interesting question. Originally I was definitely going to get the O going but now ... I think the robe is looking pretty luscious without adding much extra.

However ... I think in compromise I'll probably give him an amulet of some kind that has an O in it somehow.

This goes along with the '80's MotU back story to Orko which says he lost his special amulet in the tar when he first came to Eternia.

I want more here but I also don't want to lose the simplicity I currently have :)

Thoughts?

[axiomatic]

Just started a new full time job so work's slowed down significantly ... however:

I finished sculpting the hands, begun sculpting the hat and I've got a final staff design down on paper.

I've also begun thinking about some little environment stuff. At the moment I'd like to put him on a miniature-style diorama and model all the effects (power ball in his hand etc) by hand. I'm thinking of making the final piece look like a new pose-able figurine :)

Apart from the above I still need to do the amulet, the robe cuffs and hemming, his ears and his big flowing scarves.

I should have a day or so over the weekend which will hopefully be enough to finish this to a point that I'm happy with. Whee!

[digitaltorio]

This is looking great! One of my favorite MOTU characters. Can't wait to see it done.

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