Gamespy: Console Piracy (pt1)

[RobertoOrtiz]

Great link!
I did not know that the problem was that big.

Thanks!
-R

[tjnyc]

One thing that was highly overlooked was the fact that modding was originally pursued to allow gamers to play import games, since the "security" feature is tied to territorial lockout, a modded system allow avid gamers to import games that will never see the light of day in other regions.

Piracy came later and is now the big reason for getting a modded system or getting your system modded. I myself have modded all my systems since back in SNES days and I have a hugh collection of Jpn import games, but I have never once bought a pirated game and I hate the fact that modded system has now become associated with piracy and that laws are going to be coming around probably illegalizing modded systems.

[chach]

I haven't encountered people or vendors selling dupes here in the triangle. Have any of you? Downloading is different - that, I see.

[MCronin]

Originally posted by tjnyc
One thing that was highly overlooked was the fact that modding was originally pursued to allow gamers to play import games, since the "security" feature is tied to territorial lockout, a modded system allow avid gamers to import games that will never see the light of day in other regions.

Piracy came later and is now the big reason for getting a modded system or getting your system modded. I myself have modded all my systems since back in SNES days and I have a hugh collection of Jpn import games, but I have never once bought a pirated game and I hate the fact that modded system has now become associated with piracy and that laws are going to be coming around probably illegalizing modded systems.

Do you really believe this? I sure don't. The first time I encountered Playstaion mods was back in 96 and the reason people were doing it was because they could then burn copies of games and play them, not so they could pay 70-90 dollars for an import to play. Back then a blank CD cost like 10 dollars, but it was still cheaper than paying full price for games. I seriously doubt the guys who originally hacked the PSX did it because they really wanted to play a copy of Super Panty Fighter Turbo from Japan. They could of just bought a Japanese console.

[mental]

Originally posted by MCronin
Do you really believe this? I sure don't.tjnyc speaks the truth MCronin. like him i modded my SNES so that i could play imported cartridges.

in fact i remember my cousins having a moddified version of the original NES system from the late 80s in order to play the japanese version Super Mario Brothers 3 (which came out in Japan many months before they ported it over to the US).

there were pirated games even back then but they were hard to come by in north america but it wasn't intertwined with modifying your console.

btw: trying to buy a japanese console was insanely expensive during the times of the NES, SNES and PSX systems (even more so if you were just a kid on an allowance;). we're talking a good $400-600 from an imports vendor if my memory serves me right. the cost of the import games alone were enough expense (100-200 depending on how hot or rare the title was). in short modding was the economical way to go if you wanted to play the latest games (remember that up until recently 90% of all console games came from japan with a 1-2 year wait until they showed up in other markets). that is what originally drove folks to mod their systems, not piracy.

-mental

[Neil]

sounds exaggerated to me. I don't know anyone that didn't have a modde'd PS1 and Sony is still number 1 and doing damn fine. It hasn't crippled them.

Nintend should look to other faults of theirs, like oh ... selling gameboys when you couldn't even see the screen!, so the community had to devise back lighting to make it even usuable.
Good thing they finally fixed that with their newest one, but did it really take 2 generations of it to figure that out?... doubtful, did people buy both, yes.

[tjnyc]

Originally posted by MCronin
Do you really believe this? I sure don't. The first time I encountered Playstaion mods was back in 96 and the reason people were doing it was because they could then burn copies of games and play them, not so they could pay 70-90 dollars for an import to play. Back then a blank CD cost like 10 dollars, but it was still cheaper than paying full price for games. I seriously doubt the guys who originally hacked the PSX did it because they really wanted to play a copy of Super Panty Fighter Turbo from Japan. They could of just bought a Japanese console.

Of course I believe this the jpn imported game community is still hugh, and modding didn't originate for piracy is a fact. It was mostly avid import gamers who started modding their system and sharing the knowledge. It wasn't some business like it is now where a bunch of techies from China or Russia hacking chips together to do away with security and pirating games.

Another thing is that back then even with the PSX and Saturn, the mod chips that were wildly available didn't work with pirated games, they just bypassed the territorial lockout. The mod chips were usually a copy of the regional chip from a jpn PSX or jpn Saturn that you had to solder onto your game system board with an added switch for Jpn or US region. If you don't believe me google it

Also, to buy a jpn PSX back then cost between $600 to $1000, so there was a very good reason not to buy an imported system, the games were expensive enough with a cost of $75 tp $100 per game.

[heavyness]

you would think Sony or Nintendo would wise up and start making there system region free. then, start selling the import games themselves. a quick search on the net shows a Japan Gamecube game going for $65 +shipping +tax. now Nintendo could sell for $10 less, and still make a profit.

the good thing about this
1]they make more money
2]a good chunk of modding would be elminated causing modders' to hide and prices of mods to good up [so less people can get there hands on it]
3]saving money on developing different systems for different areas
4]shows what great games never come out in the US

the bad thing about this
1] ???

[MadMax]

Originally posted by MCronin
Do you really believe this? I sure don't. The first time I encountered Playstaion mods was back in 96 and the reason people were doing it was because they could then burn copies of games and play them, not so they could pay 70-90 dollars for an import to play.


Hate to burst your bubble there, but I did the exact same thing so that I could play Japanese Imports that never shipped over here.

[MCronin]

I don't think pulling a plastic peg guide out of a NES, SNES or a N64 to play imports consitutes a mod. Installing a chip that bypasses the copy protection Sony has implemented or using a boot disc is a whole different story.

In the case of the PSX, originally you could do a swap trick to play pirated games, but Sony put a stop to that in real quick. From day 1 the PSX mod chips were used to play burned games, and that was their big selling point. You could play "backups". The first PSX modchip came from Hong Kong in early 96 from an American contractor and it played pirated games. It was then reverse engineered by a guy in the Netherlands who sold the info and new mod chip manufacturers popped up, and then reversed again by an American who posted the code freely on the net. The region only modchips for the PSX actually didn't come until much later, as Sony started cracking down on retailers who were selling the original chips. For the Saturn, you didn't need a chip to play imports, all you needed was a switch and a couple resistors. Piracy never really caught on with the Saturn because the market wasn't big enough.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by MCronin From day 1 the PSX mod chips were used to play burned games, and that was their big selling point.


Sorry, but I don't have a single "burned" copy here. I do have about 30 Japanese releases that are legit retail, that wouldn't play without a mod chip.

Constantly repeating your point isn't going to make it so. It's kind of like saying that the only reason a person buys a gun is to rob banks.

[slime]

I also modified my PS1 many years ago, so I could play japanese games. I think it´s (was) pretty normal for the people iterested in japanese games. I also bought some super famicom games in japan, fortunately the super famicom (normal SF in a normal store) I had bought could play them without problems.

[FB_Turbine]

I want to add that I to have a fair number of import games for the ps1 and had at one time import games for the genesis. I've never used or purchsed pirate games. Although neither system needed a chip to play import games, it's untrue to believe everyone who alters their system is doing it to steal. Though I won't argue that it'snot a problem and that as time goes by piracy is not running more and more rampant.

[Meaty]

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/july03/consolepiracy/index3.shtml

part 2 is now up

[parallax]

Back in the days, i modified my NES with this little switch, purely to be able to play imported rental games.

Later, during SNES days, you could use a converter. (bulky though)

[Neil]

*hope i'm not making assumptions here
But they say that it's too easy to buy bootleg games in Russia. Well come on... how much of the market is from Russia in the first place!?

[TheWraith]

i think the best way to fight piracy in the console world is to do what nintendo did with the gamecube. cd's and dvd's are here to stay. dvd burners are going to replace cdburners in popularity over the next few years so any consoles that play those types of disc's are going to get ripped off. hell, xbox even had a harddrive built into it making it so you don't even need a burner. gamecube is only going to be cracked when they start selling dvd discs the size of the gamecube discs and burners that are able to burn them. the fact that people are now able to rip the gc games however does concern me. it leaves me with the feeling that it's only a matter of time. i bought a gamecube knowing that the xbox and ps2 would be hacked shortly after their release and hoping that publishers would realize that and switch to the gamecube... unfortunately that wasn't to be :( i really do think that the only way to really stop copying the discs is to prevent them from being readable by pc's since that seems to be the major source for transferring and copying games.

[MadMax]

the problem with trying to come up with more complex ways to fight piracy, you only end up hurting yourself in the process. Doesn't matter if it is PC software, games or whatever.

Look at PC software, dongles, FlexLM licenses, serials etc. It doesnt work. Not one little bit. Hacked copies hit the street the same day the software does.

What it does do is that legit users are the ones who get hurt. Take for example Newtek. I have to call for a license key, plus a dongle. IF I buy software at a trade show, there may might not be anyone at Newtek to give me an activation code. In fact, this did happen to me a couple of years ago, I bought something at Siggraph on Thursday and had to wait until the following Tuesday to play with it.

Dongle goes bad, it takes forever to get them replaced. A friend of mine waited over 4 months to get a dongle back from Newtek. While an extreme case, it happens.

Then of course there are companies who tie their product to the dongle you have for another product, like a plugin for Maya or Lightwave as an example.

If that dongle goes bad, guess what? you are in for a life of hell getting it worked out because the company who makes the plugin is convinced you are trying to hose them when you need a new code.

[Meaty]

Part III is up!

http://www.gamespy.com/articles/july03/consolepiracy/index5.shtml


MadMax... good points, especially the point on replacement dongles and plugin codes, however there is a distinction between hacked games and hacked software.

Hacked software is *mostly used by kids in their basement just foolin around. That kid using that software does not necessarily translate into lost revenues (in fact, someone from Discreet admitted to me that they see THAT particular form of piracy as a double edged sword). However, each and every hacked game, one could argue, does translate into lost revenue because of the comparitively low cost.

Going back to the software, the hardware locks and all that stuff are not designed to prevent kids from getting the hacked copies off the internet. What it does help with is companies who might be inclined to say buy one copy of a software. "Say Jim, how is that Lightwave?" "It's cool Frank, want to install it?" "Sure!" Next thing you know, they both make productive use of it and decide to skip the purchase of a new license. Happens all the time with software without hardware locks in small companies.

Apparently Game Cube has it right, good for them! Others will learn.

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Meaty
MadMax... good points, especially the point on replacement dongles and plugin codes, however there is a distinction between hacked games and hacked software.

Hacked software is *mostly used by kids in their basement just foolin around.


And that would be fine if copy protection methods actually worked.

Even with games, it is not one bit harder to get an illegal copy than it is to get software. Sometimes cracked games hit the street before the actual release,
even with strong protection.

It's a bad situation really and for companies it's a no win proposition. Spend money on copy protection, or leave a disc wide open.

Protection gives them some sense of security, even if it is a false sense. But the bottom line is it doesn't slow hackers down one little bit.

[Meaty]

Originally posted by MadMax
And that would be fine if copy protection methods actually worked.

...

Protection gives them some sense of security, even if it is a false sense. But the bottom line is it doesn't slow hackers down one little bit.

True, it doesnt slow down hackers, and it doesnt stop kids from downloading it, BUT, I would contend that it does greatly reduce the amount of lazy middle managers who say, "Ahhh, just install it on Frank, Bill, Tom, Dick and Harry's computer," instead of purchasing the licenses for all five people. And THAT is where money is lost, not from kids downloading, because for them, purchasing is not even an option. (disclaimer: the previous statement is NOT a justification for kids or anyone to use warez)

[MadMax]

Originally posted by Meaty
BUT, I would contend that it does greatly reduce the amount of lazy middle managers who say, "Ahhh, just install it on Frank, Bill, Tom, Dick and Harry's computer," instead of purchasing the licenses for all five people. And THAT is where money is lost, not from kids downloading, because for them, purchasing is not even an option.


Depends on the software. IF it has a dongle for example, you would be correct.

What about WinXP? or Office? Those have keycodes on the CD that anyoen can use.

A few years ago I worked for a multi million dollar company that had hundreds of locations. My office had 400+ employees.

They all passed around a single copy of Windows, and Office to everyone to install on their systems.

[Meaty]

Originally posted by MadMax
Depends on the software. IF it has a dongle for example, you would be correct.

Sorry, I should have been more clear, I was referring to dongle protection.

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