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View Full Version : Dope sheet plug in?


ngrava
06-30-2003, 11:04 PM
Hey People,

I'm looking for a Dope sheet plug in like the ones in XSI,Maya and Max. One that lets you see all your keyframes and in a single window (like the scene editor) but lets you move them around? Can anyone direct me to one or know of one in development?

Thanks in advance,

-=GB=-

Kvaalen
06-30-2003, 11:14 PM
Like the Graph Editor?

ngrava
06-30-2003, 11:23 PM
Nope. Like the scene editor but it would allow you to move the individual keys around. I don't want to see the splines. just the key frames. Thanks anyway.

-=GB=-

DaveW
06-30-2003, 11:25 PM
The closest thing out there right now is KeyTrack.

http://www.spatial-design.com/plugins/KeyTrak/index.htm

ngrava
06-30-2003, 11:57 PM
Yeah, that's closer to what I was talking about. It looks as though You can only view the keys of the current items... Any others?

Thanks by the way,

-=GB=-

E_Moelzer
07-01-2003, 08:00 AM
No, keytrack actually allows you to create sets of items to manipulate (at least thats what I understood).
CU
Elmar

Meshbuilder
07-01-2003, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by ngrava
Nope. Like the scene editor but it would allow you to move the individual keys around. I don't want to see the splines. just the key frames. Thanks anyway.

-=GB=-

You can do that with scene editor?
Click "+" on the object you want to edit the keys on.. It works..

T4D
07-01-2003, 11:10 AM
You can do that with scene editor?Click "+" on the object you want to edit the keys on.. It works..

that moves all the keys on an object not a single key

seems silly that they havn't added to scene editor

i would love to be able to move single keys in the scene editor
i have it open all the time for object selection ( dual montor)
Hope this will be there in LW8

Frankie
07-01-2003, 11:32 AM
T4d when you click on the plus to expand the object you get all the channels open then you click on the other plus on the time line part of the scene editor, however you can only move one key on one channel at a time.
Its strange, it seems to have most of the functunality you need apart from being able to make multiple selections so its pretty much useless now.

I wonder how hard it would be to make a script that does it, I guess pretty difficult or someone would have allready done it.

Kvaalen
07-01-2003, 01:47 PM
You can easily move single keys in the graph editor, select the keyframes you want to move, hit CTRL and drag with the left mouse button.

If you want to see the keyframes better then you can change the setting under the Display tab in the options panel.

T4D
07-01-2003, 02:17 PM
yeah i do know that you can move single channels in the scene editor but it's so close but not really a complete tool
not useful for character animation :thumbsdow

a dope sheet plugin as per maya and motionbuilder and even Poser works alot better

eg- you can grab a character IK target with all channels
( foot or hand etc ) and move them along the Timeline
giving another way to edit your animation

yes you can do it in graph editor but you have to open it select objects bring channels into Graph editor then select all channels then move them........................it would be quicker to move all the single channels in the scene editor :annoyed:

it would be SOooooo much quicker if you could just move mouse over scene editor and BANG move the key that's just sitting there in front of you, seems odd that's it's not there already maybe in LW8 :curious:

aurora
07-01-2003, 03:39 PM
For what little its worth I have been working on creating yes, yet another pluggin that would, in theory, handle such treatments. Basically it is more of a seperate app with a LW pluggin allowing full storyboarding, animatics, dopesheet, blah blah blah control. I have had a massive hold up on it due to my absolute total ignorance of sound programming and the lack of platform independant information available on sound. I have found a almost perfect solution to the whole problem in the new OpenML SDK. The only problem with that is that it has not been released yet even though it was promised at LAST years Siggraph and nobody seems to be alive on the forum board. Me thinks its vaporware. The other hold up is I'm waiting for info on a couple of SDK changes to LW which would allow more keyframe control. Anyways when, just don't ask when when will be, the plan is to have alot more control much like we have in Maya for LW. Plus alot more workflow managment solutions.

ngrava
07-02-2003, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Kvaalen
You can easily move single keys in the graph editor, select the keyframes you want to move, hit CTRL and drag with the left mouse button.

If you want to see the keyframes better then you can change the setting under the Display tab in the options panel.

Hmmm.... This really isn't the same thing. In the Graph editor, you've got all those curves and when multiple channels are selected, it's very difficult to see what is what. A Dope Sheet, as it's called in most programs, is like a general timing editor. You can view the keys for everything at once on a grid and select, move and scale them in time. This allows you to easily change the timing of your animation in a much more effective and intuitive way then in the graph editor.

This is also a really useful tool if you're doing pose to pose animation like I do. Say you where doing a shot where a character needs to react to something. You do the rough blocking and the director looks at it and decides it need to happen a little sooner. With the dope sheet, you just select all the keys for all the objects on that frame at once and move them in time. Or scale them or shift and large group of them, or what ever. Then, once the blocking is worked out, you can start offsetting the keys of the individual objects to make them feel more natural (which is very difficult to do in the graph editor). Also, scaling actions for groups of channels is a lot easier in a dope sheet because you see everything as a horizontal strip as opposed to a bunch of overlapping curves that are all over the place.

I'm not saying that the graph editor is bad or needs to be more like something else. It's a different tool to me. It's for when you want to adjust the speed at which things move and the ease in and out. which is different then the overall timing of poses.

-=GB=-

SplineGod
07-03-2003, 02:47 AM
What I do is to create selection sets of objects/bones etc.
That way I can select all the finger bones at once and rotate them all at the same time (additively if theyre in a heirarchy).
I also create channel sets in the graph editor.
That way I can bring up a channel set say for all the pitch channels of every finger bone of the right hand and then I can slide the timing around. Lernie has a couple of use scripts (among a ton of other useful scripts) HERE (http://thespread.ghostoutpost.com/) .
One I use for Item selection sets is SelectFavoritesMC. The other I use for basic channel set manipulation is called ChannelsetsMC.
I have a tentacle rig HERE (http://www.splinegod.com/rigs.htm) that has both selection and channel sets already created.

T4D
07-03-2003, 03:27 AM
that a cool idea with the Favorites Splinegod i'll uses that =)

also when doing fingers I add a null, parent it to the hand place it above the fingers, then use follower motion plugin to then set all joints in each finger to a rotate or scale channel of the null
eg :-
set all of the pointer fingers pitch to the null's pitch
all middle fingers pitch to the nulls bank, etc

so you can control 6 fingers in all or use the last channel as a extra thumb control or a finger sprend,
( sometimes I have the thumb with it's own null )
then all you do is grab the null and can animate all the fingers from one object & graph editor is simple too.

SplineGod
07-03-2003, 03:48 AM
I used to set up fingers with sliders or nulls like youve mentioned. The only issue I have is that it takes a long time and you end up with less control because you still cant go in and tweak individual bones because theyre controlled via expressions or follower.
If you want the added control it takes very long to set up. Id rather just get to the animating. It takes just a few seconds to get the selection sets setup and you can have them for all the fingers, finger groups, individual fingers, just the base of each finger or whatever and they can be set up on the fly.
You might check out THIS (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=69762) thread. :)

Stoehr
07-03-2003, 04:35 AM
There a plugin called "KitCut", and it can be found at Flay.com.
Sorry if someone mention this one already.
Some people have said it is a similar, free version of the Keytrak.

madheavy
11-12-2003, 06:46 PM
I'm really enjoying this thread. Very informative. Coming from Animation Master, I really miss the dopesheet that comes built-in to that program.
Any I would like to try using either KeyTrak or Kit Cut, but I went to both of their sites and they don't seem to be up currently.
Would some kind-hearted soul be nice enough to email me them at mad_cap@earthlink.net?
(mad_cap@earthlink.net)
IF not can you send me the updated links?
Thanks guys!
MadHeavy2000

kurv
11-12-2003, 06:54 PM
Hold on!!!

Check this out!! http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11367&highlight=LightWave

CIM
11-12-2003, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by wordwarepub
Hold on!!!

Check this out!! http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11367&highlight=LightWave

That's not a Dope Sheet, it's just timeline editing.

kurv
11-12-2003, 08:14 PM
CIM, do you always have to accentuate the negative :) I agree with most of your posts, but on this one…I have no idea. I am still working on the modeler. I will post a WIP in a few days.

I just remembered seeing a post about the new version having a dope track in it...from what proton posted.

< dying to see a post where CIM says anything positive :) JK CIM.. >

CIM
11-12-2003, 08:26 PM
So shoot me since I know the difference between timeline editing and a real dope sheet. :rolleyes:

Anyway, telling the truth is totally positive to me. So, there you get your positive post. :)

wgreenlee1
11-12-2003, 08:32 PM
:buttrock:













lol

madheavy
11-12-2003, 08:38 PM
Hey
Does anyone know how I can get a hold of KeyTrak or Kit Cut?
I went to their sites and they seem to be down. I don't think I'll be upgrading to LW8 for a LOOONG Time!

(I still use MS Office 2000 at work- get the picture) So any plugin that would help me move keys around to get better timing in my animation would be appreciated. As of now, I just copy and delete keys in the time...tedious...very tedious...

kurv
11-12-2003, 08:39 PM
LOL ... thanks CIM :)

jmcalpin
11-12-2003, 09:12 PM
I have Kit Cut and it's useful for cutting and pasting keys...alot faster than hitting enter, the frame number, enter, then the delete key.

The license says that is it beta and was last updated Oct 2002.

I am not sure if this plugin will work with 7.5c since they are LScripts

I'll try them out later and see if they still work.

Jay

jmcalpin
11-12-2003, 09:18 PM
I just emailed developer.

I'll keep everyone informed once(if) he gets back to me.

Jay

Gwot
11-12-2003, 10:52 PM
For what little its worth I have been working on creating yes, yet another pluggin that would, in theory, handle such treatments. Basically it is more of a seperate app with a LW pluggin allowing full storyboarding, animatics, dopesheet, blah blah blah control. I have had a massive hold up on it due to my absolute total ignorance of sound programming and the lack of platform independant information available on sound. I have found a almost perfect solution to the whole problem in the new OpenML SDK. The only problem with that is that it has not been released yet even though it was promised at LAST years Siggraph and nobody seems to be alive on the forum board. Me thinks its vaporware. The other hold up is I'm waiting for info on a couple of SDK changes to LW which would allow more keyframe control. Anyways when, just don't ask when when will be, the plan is to have alot more control much like we have in Maya for LW. Plus alot more workflow managment solutions.

Hey Aurora, I'd be happy to help beta test if/when you ever get it off the ground.

SplineGod
11-12-2003, 10:57 PM
Lernies got a nice little plugin on his site that allows you to shift keyframes around on selection sets in the graph editor.
Its not hard to create favorite channel sets and use the plugin to slide timing around etc.

dzogchen
11-13-2003, 03:57 AM
Originally posted by jmcalpin
I have Kit Cut and it's useful for cutting and pasting keys...alot faster than hitting enter, the frame number, enter, then the delete key.

The license says that is it beta and was last updated Oct 2002.

I am not sure if this plugin will work with 7.5c since they are LScripts

I'll try them out later and see if they still work.

Jay

No it doesn't work with LW 7.5c.

Fasty
11-13-2003, 05:04 AM
T4D, I seem to remember you saying something on LwOz about the Spreadsheet acting as a dope sheet...

Just did a search and found it:
OK
i've really wanted a dope sheet keyframe editor for awhile now hoping for LW
8
But I just found it was there all the time in the spreadsheet

to find it click the " littlest " arrow at the bottom right corner of the the
columns in the spreadsheet editor
and BANG the column turn into a timeline full editorable !!!!

i wish i knew this when the spreadsheet first come out,
i've had the Scene editor in my second montor all this time =(

Haven't tried it though, is it any good?

jmcalpin
11-13-2003, 05:29 AM
Is there a way to edit individual keys or just the whole range?

So far it seems I have to double click to go to the channels to actually do any work.

Jay

T4D
11-13-2003, 05:45 AM
Yeah Fasty
its a wonderful thing that alot of PPL don't use/ know about
the little arrow at the bottom brings it up,
it's great for moving keys around
right click on the timeline to bring up the range and select the objects that have keys that you want to move, then move the range limits around the keys that you want to move
http://www.thomas4d.com/LW_Dopesheet.jpg
correctly naming your objects and bones so the spreadsheet filter
works is Big help alos locking off non animated object helps too
but wish the selection sets in scene editor would come over to Spreadsheet sheet.. maybe in LW 8

ngrava
11-13-2003, 06:28 AM
Hey Thanks for that little tip about the Spread sheet. It does seem to work. A little on the funky side but it does work.

I'm still needing something a little more flexible. Something where you can just drag keys without having to move that selection area around. I'm actually looking into making an LScript based one right now.

-=GB=-

T4D
11-13-2003, 09:32 AM
Yeah it's not as good as it could be
being able to do volume selections of keys in the scene editor would be what i would really want
but this Spreadsheet dopesheet has it's advantages too :thumbsup:

faulknermano
11-14-2003, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by aurora
The other hold up is I'm waiting for info on a couple of SDK changes to LW which would allow more keyframe control. Anyways when, just don't ask when when will be, the plan is to have alot more control much like we have in Maya for LW. Plus alot more workflow managment solutions.

i created an lscript for timeline editing and up until recently have refined it to the point where i've gotten on lscript's good side and it doesnt crash at all (it was a crashy one when it started out).

dope sheet, timeline editing, it's all the same internally: the only difference is how the information is presented to the user. the current lscript system allows for everything you need to shift, scale keys, change they properties, etc. there are bugs though, notably that of keys with bezier incoming curves. but other than that, dope sheet functionality is totally accessible. with the script that i made i wouldnt be that far from making a dope sheet editor myself, though i admit that interface was / is the toughest part to do on the script, since the access to channels was relatively transparent to begin with.

but it is too bad that lw doesnt come with it. indeed, maybe we'll see a good dopesheet in lw8.

bye. :wavey:

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