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blendtwoattr
05-26-2010, 12:47 PM
Buddy ....awesome stuff, im in :beer:



when n how ??

JessR
05-27-2010, 11:39 PM
ooooooo giant mechanical kitty!....and i LOVE the wheels on the legs! KUDOS dude! can't wait to get my hands on it

nottoshabi
06-02-2010, 12:48 AM
I have not done one of these in a long time. This kitty looks great I'm in. Do you have an eta of the finished model?

giordi
06-02-2010, 11:19 PM
guys how bring the attention of a moderator on that topic? we are all warm and ready! we just need some rule and regulation and start to have fun

spurcell
06-03-2010, 03:16 PM
we've been trying to get a moderator in here for quite awhile, which not much luck. The thing is, how do you create a competition around rigging? How do you judge one based solely on the merit of the rig? Have a well respected professional take each rigged scene for a spin and judge based on predefined parameters? Sounds slow. Have entry's be an animation showing the rig in action? Might be unfair to people who know how to rig but not create a slick animation. Certainly a still frame is out of the question: can't provice enough information.

Just my thoughts.

giordi
06-03-2010, 06:42 PM
well the main purpose of the rig is not create fancy or complicated stuff the rig needs to be able to be easily animated so the stuff i will suggest is to find a great animator that would go quickly through the rig and he will be surely able to figure out if it s a good rig to be animated or not .
what i think will happen is that we will have a lot of rigs at the same levels but maybe a couple of us will have an idea or something that will make the difference.
I have two ideas about judges let me contact them and we will see also in which softwares they can check the rigs .
For the rewards honestly i don't care a nice tag to put on our profile should be perfect i guess

Nothingness
06-06-2010, 05:10 PM
It should also be more focussed on learning and not creating the best rig. So for starters i think selfish riggers that just do their thing and watch the less skillfull peeps struggle should not be encouraged. This is something you'll see in many challenge threads that only has little fame to gain.

derekserra
06-06-2010, 05:41 PM
My understanding was that this is a 'challenge' not a contest. I'll be rigging it just for the experience of doing it. I'm looking forward to seeing how everyone else tackles the problems that come up as well.

My original plan was to rig this in Lightwave, but I've recently jumped into learning Maya. I'll do the rig in Maya now, but if I see areas that would cause me a challenge in LW, I may go and rig it there, too.

Looking forward to getting started!

giordi
06-06-2010, 10:08 PM
well then everybody should opens a tread in this section or everybody in one and share the experience of rigging with his ideas and etc that would be awesome!

TimForbes
06-07-2010, 12:22 AM
yeah if we bounce back and forth ideas and different ways to implement rigging techniques into the rig it would be a great way to learn. and theres always more that one way to achieve everything so it's always great to see how everyone else tackles the same problem.

anyway i'm in thie challenge for sure when it gets underway, seems theres a lot of interest in it so it should be a good one.
Cheers,
Tim.

spurcell
06-07-2010, 01:59 PM
I agree the rigging challenge shouldn't be considered a contest like say the fx wars challenge, but more like maybe the lighting challenges where people post from their iterative process and people can provide critiques and suggestions/solutions. Personally I've been learning maya since purchasing vray for maya and was looking for a good reason to try my hand at rigging.

Dimich
06-08-2010, 10:44 AM
I have to agree with those that think this shouldn't be a contest. I personally would like to start learning to rig in Maya, and having this challenge as a motivator would definitely make the process a lot easier. Having it as a competition would negate me wanting to learn, but rather try to do everything the way I am used to doing already, and maybe, time permitting, add a few new features. Knowing there is a time frame is difficult enough (especially for most of us who have to do day jobs as well). Having to actually compete would create too many unnecessary issues related to judging/cheating/etc. Plus, what would we be competing for? It IS unofficial... So we are not sponsored, we are not really looking to gain anything but knowledge out of this. So I say, lets stick to what was done before (a long time ago we did a female hunter model) and post the progress. All we need really is someone to say when the start is, and when the due date is. Would make motivation a little easier (at least for me :p)

RavenEye
06-08-2010, 06:03 PM
The purpose of the challenge isn't a competition challenge, but it is for pushing ourselves and having restrictions and rules to follow. Something that we see everyday at a working environment. Those limits are the challenge themselves. It isn't against each other. One such rule could be a producer coming to you and saying "We need this mecha cat rigged by the end of the day, so that animation can start tomorrow." Unfortunately that is not a far fetch request. And a request like that forces us to think outside the box and forces us to do quick and dirty solutions. All I'm saying is this challenge isn't a contest but to challenge ourselves of staying within a production type rule structure. To me that is what the challenge should be about.

So here are my two cents of the challenge rules:
1.) We are stuck with the cat model as is. The art director does not want any changes and the character artist has been assigned to another project. I believe that Nothingness mention that character artist(modeler) and the rigger go back and forth about what the model needs to deform or move better. Now, we all can't be bugging Nothingness about revising the model, so we're stuck with what we have.

2.) Writing a document on what the rig can and can't do. Yes, we are all not english majors but writing a document on the rig and scripts that go with the rig lands on the riggers court. Otherwise you'll be answering 20 questions from each animator in your pipeline.

3.) Since we don't get to much activity on here. I say we have 2 months to do this challenge. We must create an animator friendly rig. A not to complicated rigging structure on the outside but giving them the options to control majority of rig through control curves, attributes, gui, etc. But keeping in my mind to not clutter up the scene.

4.) The creature should have the flexibility as at cat or as much as the model will let us. Also make sure to get all those pistons moving the way pistons move.

Anywho, please feel free to add, change, suggest, or whatever. I just feel there should be some kind of real world production guidelines to follow.

TimForbes
06-08-2010, 11:58 PM
yep, nicely said RavenEye. I think that sounds spot on. I guess we should create a specific post for this challenge that specifies the rules that you just mentioned/dates etc. and then everyone can create their own WIP thread, the model can be released and we can get underway.

i think the document explaining what the rig does/how it works backed with a nice screen capture/animation would be a great way to demonstrate and explain how it works and the features it has.
cheers,
Tim.

kirkjr2
06-09-2010, 07:02 PM
Maybe we should get a few storyboard panels going for the model. That way we can get creative with some of the features of the rig beyond ROM.

RavenEye
06-11-2010, 05:38 PM
Ok, here is my production scenario.....

A client has came to you need a this mechanical cat rigged for a parody animation project. He is planning on doing a live action parody of "Simon's Cat `Fly Guy`".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1qHVVbYG8Y

He is wanting this mechanical cat to be able to do all the things in the video, so that he can have his animator mimic the movements.

The Challenge: Creating a sound mechanical cat rig with all pistons, springs, or any other moving parts moving. Have these parts have both an automatic system and have the animator to have some control over these items. Plus the rig has to be able to do the animations that the 2D cat is doing.

Time line: 2 months from the begining of July.

So here is my pitch for the mechanical cat. I stated July because the 1st of a month is easier to keep track rather than the middle of the month. Plus if anyone else has any pitches for the mechanical cat challenge just post and maybe we can take a vote.

derekserra
06-11-2010, 05:47 PM
My approach was going to be for a more realistic cat. Find some YouTube videos of cheetahs or lions running and playing. Now that you've mentioned a cartoon cat, I'm thinking about adding some squash and stretch to the mechanical parts to achieve cartoon movement, too.

An all around rig that can handle all these movements is a good goal.

RavenEye
06-11-2010, 06:26 PM
This is just a thought of a challenge. I wouldn't mind hearing others idea for rigging requirements and restrictions for this challenge. Like a more realistic type of challenge that this cat is for a new military top secret project. Or whatever. We just need ideas to flow and then pick one to run with.

Pranaw
06-13-2010, 06:17 AM
:lightbulb How about some Transformer type Rigging, i always wonder how can we achieve such complicated structure that fascinates all the riggers in the world. transformer type rig is way beyond my imagination.....:sad: so i and everyone who are new, would like to learn how. i think this challenge should also give knowledge to new riggers (like me) who have dreams of doing transformer type rigging.

derekserra
06-13-2010, 06:21 AM
Transformer rigging sounds like a lot of fun. Perhaps it can be challenge version 2.0 on this model. Before tacking that, a transformed version of the cat would have to be modeled first before you know what to aim for. Is it a robot? Is it a Ferrari?

giordi
06-13-2010, 10:15 AM
sound good i like that model really bad when are we starting ! :arteest: :arteest:

Stankluv
06-13-2010, 06:00 PM
Transformers rigging got explained after the first movie in an issue of 3d world.

prepare to be disappointed.


First they modeled the car. Then they chopped up the vehicle model and stuck the key design point parts on a seperate robot model, not the whole vehicle, just the important visual parts. 2 models now. Then they decided upon a half way Transformation point that each model could get to. Then compositing plus animation controls that let every little part get moved around independently took over.

so a typical transformation was; car pulls up, transforms to half way point, swap-in/composite halfway point robot, complete transformation to full robot.

Each transformation is a unique fx animation, and not a rigging set-driven-key click. The article even mentions that most of the transformation animations were done by one particular animator, he had a japanese name I think I remember.



Rigging an actual transformers toy would be cool, and deliver a cool rigging technical achievement, but the articulation of the transformation would be a small fraction of the transformations in the film because it would be reality based.

derekserra
06-14-2010, 04:32 PM
Yeah, I wasn't impressed with how they did the transformations in the movie. It was REALLY cheated. I'd prefer to transform a model that is actually built and rigged to work.

Dan DeEntremont did a nicer job with his train than they did in the movie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2yigliim0U

Pranaw
06-15-2010, 06:43 AM
Transformers rigging got explained after the first movie in an issue of 3d world.

prepare to be disappointed.


First they modeled the car. Then they chopped up the vehicle model and stuck the key design point parts on a seperate robot model, not the whole vehicle, just the important visual parts. 2 models now. Then they decided upon a half way Transformation point that each model could get to. Then compositing plus animation controls that let every little part get moved around independently took over.

so a typical transformation was; car pulls up, transforms to half way point, swap-in/composite halfway point robot, complete transformation to full robot.

Each transformation is a unique fx animation, and not a rigging set-driven-key click. The article even mentions that most of the transformation animations were done by one particular animator, he had a japanese name I think I remember.



Rigging an actual transformers toy would be cool, and deliver a cool rigging technical achievement, but the articulation of the transformation would be a small fraction of the transformations in the film because it would be reality based.

transformers seems like lots of cheating...:surprised :banghead:
lets have a challenge v 2.0 (as told by derekserra :wavey:) which leads to riggers to come up with the rig that can actually transform the rig into something else. lets take this challenge as figuring out the rig that can actually transform without cheating (if possible:)). Is there any references in the internet about transformer rig? (like the blue print)

we will keep discussing about the challenge v2.0, but when will the challenge v1.0 starts. im restless....:drool: I've even placed the pic of mecha cat as a desktop background in my system.:beer:

simoncheng
06-22-2010, 02:28 AM
okay,

couldn't wait and posted the test render. Will do the bigger render tomorrow.
cheers.

do note: i'm not really happy with it overall. The legs are crappy and so is the neck, the spine and the tail.
But i guess the crappyness will be your bigges annoying rigging challenge.

cheers

http://features.cgsociety.org/newgallerycrits/g79/116379/116379_1274743084_large.jpg
very nice concept work.
i just love the details. :thumbsup:
cheers.

giordi
06-22-2010, 06:28 AM
when are we starting guys???

spurcell
06-23-2010, 05:34 PM
I'm beginning to think it won't

giordi
06-23-2010, 05:48 PM
well i think when the modeller will share the model ...then everybody will start

Nothingness
06-23-2010, 06:58 PM
well it was supposed to be kind of a little mini challenge with some rules. Last time i heard of the moderator he was eager to participate as well.
Still don't know why he doesn't respond for now. I guess he's too busy.

Otherwise the model could be released on a certain date to all, but not sure if it has any sence. But anyways, before i wanted to release it, i wanted the model to be checked first.

tarik3d
07-22-2010, 04:17 PM
Whats the best way to rig a robot? I want to rig my robot here http://tarik-ali.co.uk/galleryscifiredrobot.html

I am usin 3DS MAX.

Cheers

giordi
07-22-2010, 04:19 PM
wow really nice model! well there isnt a best way to rig a robot there are some techniques that are needed to be used in the right place

tarik3d
07-22-2010, 04:21 PM
wow really nice model! well there isnt a best way to rig a robot there are some techniques that are needed to be used in the right place

Thanks. Could you shed any light on that?

Cheers

giordi
07-22-2010, 04:25 PM
well i cant tellu exaclty cos i m a maya user but for example u need to know how to rig a piston , u need to be able to find the perfect spot for the pivot in order to have rotation fully working , and maybe u might need some scripting

DanHaffner
07-28-2010, 05:19 PM
Which is why so many people are asking that the transforms not be frozen cause finding those exact translation and rotation information can sometimes be a huge pain in the ass.

RavenEye
07-28-2010, 07:18 PM
Everything should be froozen. What is the challenge if all the info is already there? There are a couple of techniques that you can use to get the proper joint orientation and position.

DanHaffner
07-28-2010, 07:53 PM
The challenge is making the rig, making all the pieces work together without being able to break it. The challenge isn't to see how long we can spend finding out the rotation and translation information for thousands of pieces of geometry.

RavenEye
07-28-2010, 08:58 PM
Sometimes in a production environment you are not going to have a choice to have translate and rotation data from model. Frankly as setup artist we shouldn't need it. Yes, it is helpful to have it there, but again we don't have the choice if it or isn't there. For example, I had to work with some CAD model and create a rig for the model. It didn't come in with any translation or rotation information. I had to find it myself and have it working just like the physical toy. A challenge like this is to create a rig in some kind of production environment. How are you suppose to grow and test yourself with out a minor challenge, like finding the proper rotation of an object. I know finding it isn't that hard to do from previous experience and I do know that it would be a pain in the ass to do with the cat model. But a little pain will only make you better and to come up with tools that will assist you with the current challenge and future challenges.

TimForbes
07-29-2010, 12:10 AM
yeah I agree, it adds a possible hiccup that you may experience in production if the transform data is not on the geo already. I've found many times that I have to deal with geo that has reset transform values so it's a good skill to have;-)

spurcell
07-29-2010, 12:48 PM
I gotta disagree. If I'm in the rigging department, and somebody forwarded me a large mechanical model (say the robo cat thing) and all the objects transforms/rotations had been frozen/reset, I'd be going to the guy and saying there had better be a damn good reason he/she did that. You don't create unnecessary work for the person down the pipeline.

The scenario about getting a cad model with transforms reset, while it might be a valid scenario, I wouldn't call it appropriate for this challenge. It's highly unlikely that somebody models that robo cat in a piece of cad software. Lets not forget that we want to attract as many people as possible to a rigging challenge. Lets not make it unnecessarily difficult and scare em away.

RavenEye
07-29-2010, 06:40 PM
Oh the woes of not having a moderator to make these decisions.

It is a challenge and having frozen transformations will make it more challenging. And it can also spark more conversation about how one rigger was able to find a solution to this problem with a scripted solution and can teach other people how he/she came about to the solution. Or it could spark a comparison of two different solutions to the problem. A person could have a better more efficient on how he/she dealt with the problem than I have. I know I would like to learn and see a different way on how other people found the solution to frozen transforms. For me if it had transforms, it wouldn't be as challenging. I could easily write a script that could place everything in the correct position and orientation. A challenge should push the people in the competition for creative solutions. And in challenge like this, communicate the solution.

Overall, without a moderator for this challenge. This debate can go on for several more threads on for transforms and anti transforms.

giordi
07-29-2010, 06:46 PM
so nothingless are u gonna share the model?

rikkiknight
07-30-2010, 09:49 AM
Id also expect the transforms to be frozen. There could be a few reasons for this, be it that it keeps the model tidy and you know if a transform is accidently introduced into the model. Perhaps it helps with caching the model data further down the line?
Either way, I think its more challenging to have the transforms frozen. And after all this is a rigging challenge forum right? ;)

Nothingness
07-31-2010, 12:09 AM
I'm back behind the workstation containing my files.
But i gotta work this weekend. So not sure when i'll have the time.

Basically, i was kinda waiting for the moderator to wait, and then i had the time to add just a little thing. I actually forgot something at the feet. At the moment the legs are only resting on the toes. So need the other part.

Then i was hoping to have the moderator or someone else go over the model quickly and maybe point out some parts (i guess in production there is some feedback back and forth) so i could give something that would've been good enough.

So, i'll try and do the feet quickly and will release the obj without any further awaiting of some possibility of a challenge. I'm kinda sickof waiting too.
Wanna keep my end of my promise.

But this will mean that the model will probably have some areas that will be a b*** to rig and won't make it any fun.
But i don't care anymore. Too bad the riggers in the forum are beeing fed some bones now and then.
I guess i'll finish this thing early next week when i finished working the weekend.

Nothingness
08-03-2010, 03:12 PM
I just created a brand new thread with the file for the mecha pussy. So info can be found there and questions too. But don't expect me to awnser within 5 minutes.


http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?p=6632612#post6632612


cheers

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