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kenpimentel

02-06-2009, 09:01 PM

3ds Max Design 2010 announced:

http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/announcement_3ds_max_design_2010/

danbaiton

02-06-2009, 09:28 PM

OoOoOo the viewport rendering looks abit snazzy ! :scream:

RockinAkin

02-06-2009, 09:31 PM

The viewport rendering is VERY impressive. 3ds Max 2010 looks like it'll be a sweet upgrade.

depleteD

02-06-2009, 09:50 PM

I wonder if they focused on stability...

JoeBananas

02-06-2009, 10:00 PM

The viewport rendering is VERY impressive. 3ds Max 2010 looks like it'll be a sweet upgrade.

I really hope so!

But this line is the posting has got me concerned:

"Note: we are only announcing 3ds Max Design today. Don't read anything into this please! 3ds Max will be officially announced later. There are no new feature differences."

From this line, it sounds like there won't be any VFX specific updates to Max 2010, except those already included in Design. So Max 2010, is basically Design, with missing features?

Szos

02-06-2009, 10:45 PM

Ya know, while I do absolutely love MAX, in the past I have been admittedly very negative toward future updates of the program - it just seemed that AutoDesk would have very disappointing releases...

... BUT, if this press release is accurate and these features do in fact work (especially the viewport rendering) as advertised, then color me impressed!
This might turn out to be one of the best new releases in ages.

(I still secretly feel that AutoDesk will find SOME way to screw it all up, but I'm being hopeful)

duke

02-07-2009, 12:51 AM

cresshead

02-07-2009, 01:20 AM

I'm looking forward to more details on this portion:

"• More than 100 additional modeling tools help designers explore form making, while refining their designs with a new render-quality viewport display."

sounds like they bought either orion flame or polyboost to me....either one is cool btw

the viewport rendering is...amazing...love it!

RockinAkin

02-07-2009, 01:38 AM

sounds like they bought either orion flame or polyboost to me....either one is cool btw
God I hope so.

Spacelord

02-07-2009, 02:03 AM

sounds like they bought either orion flame or polyboost to me....either one is cool btw

the viewport rendering is...amazing...love it!

That would be great, but I'm also hoping for more CAD approach modeling tools, like WTools3d for lightwave :)

joshpurple

02-07-2009, 02:38 AM

Thank You Ken! :thumbsup:

Amyd

02-07-2009, 08:51 AM

I'm looking forward to more details on this portion:

Here is what the press release says:

Graphite Modeling Tools

3ds Max Design 2010 takes its renowned polygon modeling tools to a whole new level. With at least 100 new tools for freeform design and advanced polygonal modeling, the Graphite modeling tools facilitate creativity and artistic freedom. Additionally, the Graphite tools are displayed in one central location, making it easier to find the tool you need for the job. Moreover, users can customize the tool display or hide the command panel and model in Expert Mode.

In addition to the many modeling and mapping tools available in previous versions of the software, the Graphite toolkit includes a number of completely new tools for such operations as:

o Sculpting with assorted brushes
o Quick re‐topologizing
o Granular polygon editing
o Locking transforms to any surface
o Freeform creation of vertices
o Modifying and creating smart selections
o Quick drawing of surfaces and shapes
o Quick transformations

Material Explorer

The productivity‐enhancing Material Explorer revolutionizes the way artists interact with objects and materials. Users can now quickly browse all materials in the scene, and view material properties and relationships. The Material Explorer also enables them to replace materials – making it much easier to manage even highly complex scenes.

xView Mesh Analyzer

Validate your 3D models prior to export or rendering using the new xView mesh analyzer technology. Get an interactive view of where problems may lie to help you make crucial decisions. This key new tool makes testing of models and maps significantly faster
and more efficient. Users can test or query for flipped faces, overlapping faces and unwelded vertices. They can also add their own specific tests and queries.

Viewport Canvas

New in 3ds Max Design 2010 is the ability for artists to paint on a 3D model directly in the Viewport. This means artists will be able to quickly create new maps or extend existing maps using brushes, blend modes, fill, clone and erase. The Viewport also provides quick updates for changes to textures made in Adobe® Photoshop® software.

ProBooleans Enhancements

A new Quadify modifier has been added to the 3ds Max Design ProBooleans toolset that enables modelers to clean up triangles in model for better subdivision and smoothing. A new Merge Boolean operation has also been added which lets them attach an object (or multiple objects) to another while maintaining the transforms, topology and modifier stacks of each object.

UVW Unwrap Enhancements
Manipulating UV maps in the Viewport is now as easy as modeling in the Viewport thanks to a significantly expanded 3ds Max Design UVW Unwrap toolset. New features include such UV Selection tools as Growing/Shrinking Rings and Loops, and quick editing tools for aligning, spacing, and stitching UVs.

ProOptimizer
The new 3ds Max Design ProOptimizer technology is ideal for quickly and intelligently optimizing high‐poly count 3D models. It enables users to precisely control the number of faces or points their scene/model has; useful faces are removed last, so that a
selection can be reduced up to 75% without loss of detail. Scenes can be optimized in real time, or batch optimized. ProOptimizer technology maintains UV texture channel information and vertex color channel information, respects the symmetry of symmetrical
models, preserves explicit normals, and gives users the option to protect or exclude object borders.

mental mill/MetaSL Support

3ds Max Design 2010 is the first animation package to integrate the mental images powerful mental mill technology. This means that 3ds Max Design users will be able to develop, test and maintain shaders and complex shader graphs for hardware and software
rendering with real‐time visual feedback – no programming skills required. MetaSL shaders can be created using the included mental mill Artist Edition software. These shaders are completely hardware agnostic, meaning they do not need to be re‐authored for
different target platforms. mental mill supports CgFX, HLSL, and GLSL, as well as C++ for mental ray® technology and RealityServer; plus, the mental mill application programming interface (API) enables third parties to develop back‐end plug‐ins for other targets,
including special purpose processors and other software renderers.

Review Enhancements
Representing a major leap forward in viewport display, Review 3 helps take the guesswork out of rendering. It offers support for ambient occlusion, HDRI‐based lighting, soft shadows, hardware anti‐aliasing, interactive exposure control, and the revolutionary mental mill™ shader technology from mental images. Combined with prior abilities for textures, bump maps and photometric area lights – viewports give you live feedback like never before. The Viewport menu system has also been re‐designed to significantly improve the user experience. For example, you can now take advantage of the Layer Manager to control groups of lights (light banks) to quickly turn on and off lights in the viewport, similar to what you can do with the 3ds Max Design software renderer.

Exposure Lighting Analysis Improvements
Simulate the lighting in your designs with confidence—Exposure™ lighting analysis technology has been validated (see: www.autodesk.com/nrc‐exposure (http://www.autodesk.com/nrc‐exposure)) by the National Research Council Canada (NRC), Canada’s leading organization for scientific research and development, and the same organization that has conducted validation studies on Radiance for lighting simulation (http://www.autodesk.com/nrc‐radiance). A feature unique to 3ds Max Design 2010, Exposure enables you to achieve more sustainable designs by analyzing how sun, sky, and artificial lighting interact with your design and exploring direct lighting effects
right in the viewport. Load complex designs and watch lighting levels adjust in the scene as colors.

Interactive Lighting Analysis
A unique and new feature of 3ds Max Design 2010 lets you analytically explore direct lighting effects with interactive results right in the viewport using the new real‐time pseudo‐color exposure control. You can use the exposure control to establish color gradations
for different light levels and then interactively adjust your lights until they give the necessary coverage. You can then use Exposure to validate the results and to factor in the impact of indirect lighting effects.

Global Quality Knobs: mental ray
Architects familiar with Revit will appreciate the addition of global quality knobs to the 3ds Max Design mental ray toolset. This new feature can be used to quickly dial up or down quality settings for shadows, glossy refractions and reflections along with image antialiasing
and indirect illumination quality.

Real‐Time Photometric Lighting and Viewport Exposure Control
For the architect who wishes to experiment with advanced lighting effects in their viewport, 3ds Max Design 2010 delivers real‐time photometric lighting and exposure control. Not only do these features support timesaving, iterative workflows, exposure control can
improve the accuracy of final renderings.

Support for High Resolution Render Output
Enhancements to the 3ds Max Design automatic memory management feature enables architects and designers to render out large, print resolution images with 32‐bit systems.

Multi‐Map Shader: mental ray
A new 3ds Max Design Multi‐Map Shader for mental ray lets users purposely assign specific color variations to a set of objects that otherwise share the same material. It can also be used to quickly randomize or assign colors to multiple objects/maps based on object IDs or Material IDs. This new capability could be used to randomize the colors of trees, leaves, crowds, or anything repetitive that could benefit from a degree of color variation.

Animation Flicker Reduction: mental ray
3ds Max Design 2010 enables users to render animation sequences in mental ray with indirect illumination calculations (Final Gather), greatly reducing or eliminating traditional flickering issues. The ability to use the Final Gather cache, and render animation sequences faster has also been improved.

Final Gather Progressive Rendering
Progressive feedback has now been added for mental ray Final Gather, helping artists to more quickly evaluate their rendering results.

Render Surface Map
3ds Max Design 2010 enables architects and designers to generate bitmaps based on the surface of the geometry (Density maps, Dust maps, SubSurface maps, and Cavity maps) that can be used as masks to blend textures. Maps can also be generated from subobject
selections and wrapped textures that are generated automatically with blended seams. These provide a good starting point for painting or layering details in bitmaps. For example, an architect might generate a Cavity grayscale bitmap where the crevices on
the object are darkest, use this as a mask to blend dirt, rust, or emphasize contours with shading.

Linear Color Space Workflow
Gamma correction has been improved to correctly handle images and textures for a physically‐accurate rendering workflow where color consistency is critical. Gamma settings now load correctly with files and propagate correctly on network rendering solutions.

Containers
The addition of the Containers toolset to 3ds Max Design facilitates collaboration and flexible workflows by enabling users to collect multiple objects into a single container when dealing with complex scenes. Related objects (e.g. sections of a city) can be placed in a
container and treated as a single element. Opening the container exposes the content while closing the container externalizes the data. Containers can be temporarily unloaded from the scene, toggling data in and out as needed to manage complexity. Such workflows can save memory, increase viewport performance and decrease load and save times. Container nodes can be translated, deleted, copied, or saved – affecting everything in the container. Containers also override object properties – so users can organize scene display using container properties without affecting layer organization (similar to a nested layer workflow). Multiple containers created by others can be referenced into a single scene ‐ enabling users to work in‐context with each other. Accessing and editing each other’s container is managed with permissions on the container – allowing flexible workflows while also imposing
constraints on what can be edited.

Enhanced Scene Explorer
With 3ds Max Design 2010, Autodesk continues to expand the functionality of the Scene Explorer and increase its level of integration with the rest of the software. This powerful scene management toolset now works with viewports, Track View, as well as the
Material Explorer. Additionally, Scene Explorer now offers improved management tools – making it easier to navigate, inspect and modify the properties of objects in a scene.

OBJ Import Improvements
Improved OBJ plug‐in performance and expanded support for the OBJ file format facilitate the importing and exporting of model data between Autodesk®Mudbox® software and 3ds Max Design – as well as other third‐party 3D digital sculpting applications. Users will now be able to see if their OBJ files contain texture coordinates and smoothing groups. They will also have options for triangulating polygons on import, choosing how normals are imported and for saving presets for normal and polygon import, for future use.

Flight Studio Support
A new 3ds Max Design plug‐in enables users to import and export OpenFlight format® scenes (FLT files). Users can now load, edit and export OpenFlight scene graphs and databases from within 3ds Max Design ‐ while retaining scene graph structure and attributes. Instead of translating and losing data, 3ds Max Design can be used as an OpenFlight editor.

PFlowAdvanced
PFlowAdvanced lets users incorporate sophisticated particle effects into their scenes—perfect for creating water features, fireplaces, or other elements. It includes 14 operators new to 3ds Max Design including new precision Painting tools (for precise particle placement), the Shape Plus operator (for defining the shape of particles) and a wide range of Grouping operators (for creating subsets of particles). It also extends and optimizes the previous PFlow functionality while reducing user interface (UI) complexity, resulting in vastly improved performance and a streamlined, thoroughly 3ds Max Design workflow.

Cloth
A whole new range of cloth effects is now available to 3ds Max Design users. The cloth toolset now supports pressure settings for simulating inflated, enclosed cloth surfaces (e.g. cushions, balloons) and cloth can now be torn with variable strength and timing
(e.g. cutting, tearing and unzipping cloth). Collision objects can even be set to cut cloth when they collide. Finally, a new Inherit Velocity tool blends a new simulation with one from previous frames to create a smooth transition for staged simulations.

Hair
The 3ds Max Design Hair toolset has now been enhanced to give visualization specialists more precise control over the styling and animation of hair (often used for grass). A new Spline Deform feature enables them to add splines to a set of hairs which act as control guides so that the hairs can be posed, keyed or assigned a dynamic target – with the hair following.

ProSound
Add a new level of professionalism to presentations by adding musical scores, ambient sound and narration with the new ProSound multi‐track audio system. The new 3ds Max Design ProSound toolset enables users to add up to 100 audio tracks to their scenes and
animate the volume of each track. The technology supports both PCM and compressed audio in AVI and WAV format with up to six output channels.

Support for Locked Tracks
3ds Max Design 2010 supports the locking of any parameter that can be animated, including those with animation layers. Wires, expressions and scripts will still evaluate when locked, but they will not be editable. Vital for people working in teams, this toolset enables users to prevent team members from editing specific tracks.

Link Constraint
Support for a new Link constraint enables users to quickly animate the links between objects using the standard 3ds Max Design keyframe animation UI. The tool lets them quickly see their constrained frame numbers and access linked keyframes in the Trackbar, Dope Sheet and Curve Editor.

User Interface Refresh
The 3ds Max Design user interface has been updated to allow for task‐based workflows. As a result, key functionality becomes much more accessible when it’s needed most through context sensitive user interface components.

Adobe Photoshop Interoperability
Artists can now assign a Microsoft® DirectX® software material to an object and reference individual layers in Adobe Photoshop .psd files as a texture input, for enhanced interoperability with Photoshop. Additionally, the Viewport Canvas also offers support for
Photoshop blending modes and quick updating of textures on 3ds Max Design models.

cresshead

02-07-2009, 09:09 AM

where's the link to that info?...it's not on ken's blog...

Amyd

02-07-2009, 09:11 AM

Sorry, it is in one of the press releases from the 2010 range launch. Here you go (http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=11268974). The Design 2010 press materials archive (http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/files/3ds_max_design_2010_launch_press_materials.zip) also contains a couple of screenshots with the new ribbon UI, by the way.

cresshead

02-07-2009, 09:16 AM

thanks..yeah just searched autodesk site and foud it too!

looks great...can't see c.a.t. listed yet but still reading thru it...

TRick

02-07-2009, 09:29 AM

I did not see any mention of the recently released subscription goody CAT !! Will it stay available as a plugin or is it integrated ?

JoeBananas

02-07-2009, 09:31 AM

Cloth
A whole new range of cloth effects is now available to 3ds Max Design users. The cloth toolset now supports pressure settings for simulating inflated, enclosed cloth surfaces (e.g. cushions, balloons) and cloth can now be torn with variable strength and timing
(e.g. cutting, tearing and unzipping cloth). Collision objects can even be set to cut cloth when they collide. Finally, a new Inherit Velocity tool blends a new simulation with one from previous frames to create a smooth transition for staged simulations.

I hope this is what I think it is! - only one cloth system I know that simulates air pressure, and torn cloth - Ncloth! If this does mean Ncloth in Max, I'll be buying it on the day of release, that feature alone is worth the upgrade price for me :scream:

cresshead

02-07-2009, 10:50 AM

I did not see any mention of the recently released subscription goody CAT !! Will it stay available as a plugin or is it integrated ?

my 'guess' [and that's all it is btw..] is that c.a.t. is a free bonus for subscription users only

Magnus3D

02-07-2009, 11:55 AM

It sounds quite nice and all, but knowing Autodesk they probably ruin it somehow :D

/ Magnus

duke

02-07-2009, 12:20 PM

Awwwwwww yeah!

Adobe Photoshop Interoperability
Artists can now assign a Microsoft® DirectX® software material to an object and reference individual layers in Adobe Photoshop .psd files as a texture input, for enhanced interoperability with Photoshop. Additionally, the Viewport Canvas also offers support for
Photoshop blending modes and quick updating of textures on 3ds Max Design models.

TRick

02-07-2009, 12:39 PM

my 'guess' [and that's all it is btw..] is that c.a.t. is a free bonus for subscription users only

Normally subsciption goodies will be integrated in the next release and were also announced as a new feature for non-subscribers. Since plugins need to be recompiled for Max2010 I sincerely hope they put some time into this. CAT is typically a thing that will be a subscription goody specifically for Max2010 (entertainment edition) only...but I maybe to far ahead of myself ;)

PixelTricks

02-07-2009, 12:52 PM

Very nice.
I really didn't expect that much to be added in 2010. But damn they surprised me, and in a good way !

kenpimentel

02-07-2009, 12:56 PM

Billabong

02-07-2009, 01:44 PM

I wanna see those new 150 tools.

cresshead

02-07-2009, 01:58 PM

I wanna see those new 150 tools.

you can!...
and you can play with them too..

just hang on till APRIL for the demo version !

:cry:

cresshead

02-07-2009, 02:01 PM

vfx

02-07-2009, 02:41 PM

Lets hope Maya adopts that UI - certainly more pleasing to the eye.

02-07-2009, 02:51 PM

Wow! Is there a chance I'll be able to post on a forum and not get torn to shreds now?

Glad we're turning a few heads. I've been trying to tell you that we've been working on something special, but I didn't want to set expectations too high - nor could I give you any details.

I think you need to realize that given the quality of the last few releases, you (when I say you I mean 3dsmax, not you personally) have a whole lot to prove and people can't be expected to quickly forget all the crap they've been eating from Autdoesk over the past years.
I am happy you've realized that max needed an urgent refreshment, but, like most users, I will wait to see how all the features are implemented before passing my two-cents worth of judgement.

Having ranted all that, I'll be the first to hope this one's a promising release and to give credit where credit is due.
My only other grievance is that the release cycles are so short. We turn out spending half of every year trying to find workarounds for plugin incompatibilities, and reinstalling render farms.

DuttyFoot

02-07-2009, 04:15 PM

wow, max 2010 looks like its coming to steal the show. new ui is sweet. man thats a lot of updates, i am really looking forward to try the demo when it comes out.

Mahlon

02-07-2009, 05:34 PM

Now that's an upgrade. :bounce:

Mahlon

EDIT: And not that I condone the use of Apple :blush: , but this is cool, too.
Note: Apple® computers based on Intel processors and running Microsoft operating systems are supported using Apple’s Boot Camp.

aaraaf

02-07-2009, 07:14 PM

I figured something was coming when I got the email asking me to decide between 3dsmax Design and 3sdmax 2010 by late February.

HOLY JAMOLEE! I sure wasn't expecting that much, though!

FUG1T1VE

02-07-2009, 08:03 PM

150 new poly tools. awesome.. I always found it easier and faster to work with polys in max.
Looking forward to that.

are there any improvements in the layers option, though. It might not seem like a lot but from ver.5 to 8 i think its almost entirely the same.?

gruhn

02-07-2009, 08:19 PM

my 'guess' [and that's all it is btw..] is that c.a.t. is a free bonus for subscription users only

Staying on the guess theme, that was my reading of the language of the CAT announcement those few weeks back. I read it, looked at everybody saying "yay, we'll get it when the next full version comes out" and thought to myself "you know, I'm not so sure."

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-07-2009, 08:28 PM

From my post here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=6&t=727542&page=2) and Ken's Blog: re: CAT/Subscription
Since the vast majority of our customers are on subscription, CAT is available to almost everyone. Shouldn’t be that big of a deal (we hope). You know, it may seem like we can just take something, recompile it and just toss it in the box with the rest of the gear, but we freeze the release very early in the process and if a component is not ready when we freeze, then it doesn’t ship. This is how we build quality into the product at the cost of flexibility. We just weren’t given enough time to process CAT for 3ds Max 2010 and we’re not going to throw something like that into the box without being a little more thorough.-Eric

davius

02-07-2009, 08:57 PM

Now that's sweet! Could you elaborate a bit more about the modeling tools? I wonder what "Granular polygon editing" really stands for?

Thanks for sharing this news Ken! This upgrade is turning into one of the best we've seen in a long, long time.

ulb

02-07-2009, 10:53 PM

Viewport Canvas
New in 3ds Max Design 2010 is the ability for artists to paint on a 3D model directly in the Viewport. This means artists will be able to quickly create new maps or extend existing maps using brushes, blend modes, fill, clone and erase. The Viewport also provides quick updates for changes to textures made in Adobe® Photoshop® software.

I wonder how far they went on that one, but if this is well made like bodypaint, this is a really nice feature... but I doubt it will be that good. It feels more like the polyboost paint tool than a complete toolset with layers, etc.

Support for High Resolution Render Output
Enhancements to the 3ds Max Design automatic memory management feature enables architects and designers to render out large, print resolution images with 32-bit systems.

hope that works, even if vray is good enough at that for me

o Sculpting with assorted brushes
o Quick re-topologizing
o Granular polygon editing
o Locking transforms to any surface
o Freeform creation of vertices
o Modifying and creating smart selections
o Quick drawing of surfaces and shapes
o Quick transformations
really sounds like polyboost, Quick re-topologizing is nice

I'm personnally not that impressed, maybe because I really don't care about the real-time stuff. I'd rather have a better renderer than real-time previews. (And I've already the better renderer with vray! :P )

This is more or less what I would expect with a year and a half of development. I hope those features are well integrated, especially the paint thing. But if we can paint only with a reduced set of brushes, without layers or without other obvious features a software like bodypaint has, it would be almost useless to me.

what would be really nice is the integration of nodejoe into max!

I'm still quite impatient to get my hands on that one.

EoinCannon

02-07-2009, 11:14 PM

Wow
I'm genuinely excited about this release
That modeling toolset sounds pretty promising
Good job Autodesk and Ken

kenpimentel

02-07-2009, 11:32 PM

I wonder how far they went on that one, but if this is well made like bodypaint, this is a really nice feature... but I doubt it will be that good. It feels more like the polyboost paint tool than a complete toolset with layers, etc.

The texture painting is like polyboost - we'll be asking people what they want in something like this now that we've introduced the base feature. At the same time, we're looking at deeper integration with Mudbox for these tasks.

trthing

02-08-2009, 12:02 AM

Ken, I'm impressed: kudos to the team! :buttrock:

However, I'll be even more impressed if you could confirm Max's 2010 licensing scheme will play nicely under BootCamp (as previously disclosed): can we count on that?

kenpimentel

02-08-2009, 12:03 AM

trthing

02-08-2009, 12:09 AM

Thanks for the feedback. Yes, I can confirm that BootCamp is officially supported now.

Great news: please send us the 2010 download link ASAP :beer:

Roger Eberhart

02-08-2009, 03:11 AM

The texture painting is like polyboost - we'll be asking people what they want in something like this now that we've introduced the base feature. At the same time, we're looking at deeper integration with Mudbox for these tasks.

Is it like Polyboost, or is it Polyboost? Just curious. I already own Polyboost, so I'll need more than that to renew my subscription. Deeper integration with Mudbox will still provide a substandard texturing environment. If you're not going to compete with Bodypaint, don't bother.

Baltasound

02-08-2009, 08:09 AM

Lets hope Maya adopts that UI - certainly more pleasing to the eye.

Let's not. :shrug:

darthviper107

02-08-2009, 08:38 AM

Wow, this is really quite exciting. This seems like a big jump for 3ds Max, really excited.

I wonder, for the viewport painting, is it similar to how Mudbox handles viewport painting? Because that's more situated for the pro level graphics cards and runs horrible otherwise.

And with the OBJ update--I hope that means it'll work better with Zbrush, since right now if you export the base mesh out of Zbrush to adjust in 3ds Max it takes some work to try and get it to import back into Zbrush with the right vertex numbers.

oshiroii

02-08-2009, 09:05 AM

New UV tools? That would be so awsome :love:
Curious about that renderMill thing, never used it before but it looks very intresting.

I've always been sceptical about 3dsmax, but this actually makes me excited, cant wait! :D

Erka2

02-08-2009, 09:13 AM

Guys, you are so naive! Autodesk spent more than a year just to decorate PolyBoost with new UI's.

Is it like Polyboost, or is it Polyboost?
It's Polyboost, nothing more.

I wonder, for the viewport painting, is it similar to how Mudbox handles viewport painting? Because that's more situated for the pro level graphics cards and runs horrible otherwise.
http://www.polyboost.com/features_texturing.htm

New UV tools? That would be so awsome
http://www.polyboost.com/features_unwrap.htm

Pyke

02-08-2009, 09:41 AM

Guys, you are so naive! Autodesk spent more than a year just to decorate PolyBoost with new UI's.

It's Polyboost, nothing more.

http://www.polyboost.com/features_texturing.htm

http://www.polyboost.com/features_unwrap.htm

So?

These feature have been integrated into MAX. Why is getting excited about that being 'naive'? Or is the fact that for once, people aren't bashing AutoDesk just to much for some people to handle?

Are these new features exclusive to Design? Or will they carry over to good 'ol vanilla max?

ThirdEye

02-08-2009, 09:44 AM

It's Polyboost, nothing more.

How do you know that?

Erka2

02-08-2009, 10:30 AM

ThirdEye

02-08-2009, 11:27 AM

Anything else to ask?

Nope, just that, i'm asking how you know that it's just Polyboost. Have you seen it? Afaik it's not out yet.

cresshead

02-08-2009, 11:43 AM

So?

These feature have been integrated into MAX. Why is getting excited about that being 'naive'? Or is the fact that for once, people aren't bashing AutoDesk just to much for some people to handle?

Are these new features exclusive to Design? Or will they carry over to good 'ol vanilla max?

>> bastardised from the FAQ pdf> there are no new feature differences so all the tools you see in max design 2010 except for lighting analysis will be in...there WILL be a different u.i. layout and tutorials and help system in design compared to 'max' as it is catering for a different market segment.

my opinion>this update looks VERY strong..add in the fact that people on subscription ALSO get c.a.t and you have a brilliant update feature list

as to if they bought polyboost..who knows..it may be an internal autodesk polmodeling set, maybe polyboost and maybe orion flame...who 'cares'...the features are what users wanted for a long time to be inbuilt into max...me happy not 'naive'

some people just love to troll and talk down releases..."always half empty people" i call 'em!

3d users have a great year of releases coming up...
modo 401 soon
lightwave core
3dsmax 2010
blender re write

even the prospect of 3dsmax being virtualised for osx....yeah you read THAT right!
other things being cooked on for future releases past 2010 though NOT for 2010>>cat inside max, stereo viewports, ipr....

for such a bad ecconomic climate were seeing so great moves in 3d apps this year..
get with the program>>smile!

Airflow

02-08-2009, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Erka2
Anything else to ask?

Yeah, can you calm down please bro :)

I own polyboost too, I hardly use its paint tools, its better than vertex paint but its damn slow. If they have managed to speed up any of the polyboost tools it would be great. I also own bodypaint and hardly touch that either works fine except no symetry painting, its what your used to really. Anyone who doent have this stuff will be happy with it, but Id like to see somthing new, mirai had photoshop quality paint tools intergrated way back in 1997 or before even. So it cant be that difficult to update vertex paint into somthing stronger.
Id kill to be able to paint in the uv editor, sculpt uvs with a brush, paint onto the mesh without having to open another bit of software.
Now that ad have mudbox the best we can hope for is a mb bridge so you can paint in it from max, rather than them building in a decent paint tool.
For me, Its a nice upgrade as I im sure the polyboot developer is now working with the max dev, we should see some new tools in the future I hope.

02-08-2009, 12:35 PM

Support for High Resolution Render Output
Enhancements to the 3ds Max Design automatic memory management feature enables architects and designers to render out large, print resolution images with 32‐bit systems.
Strange... I've been rendering print resolution images in max for the last 8 years.

benytone

02-08-2009, 12:57 PM

Nope, just that, i'm asking how you know that it's just Polyboost?
I read sometimes ago that Polyboost and Cat will be integrated into the 3ds Max, I don't know if that's true or not, but that would be amazing!

cecofuli

02-08-2009, 01:02 PM

PROSOUND is a Soundtrax from Boomer Labs for 3ds max 4 ?

LINK (http://www.boomerlabs.com/cart/home.php?cat=2)

Sound Trax provides a solution to a long-standing desire amongst MAX users - integrated multi-track audio. Boomer Labs is pleased to deliver this capability for 3ds max 6, 7, 8, 9 and 2008(both w32 and x64). Only with Sound Trax can you:

* Add up to 100 audio tracks
* Animate the volume of each track
* Normalize the output audio
* Support PCM and compressed audio in AVI and WAV files with up to 6 output channels
* Backwards Playback (“Ping Pong” mode)
* Export audio to a WAV file or add it to an existing AVI
* Accurately play back audio at 1/4, 1/2, 1, 2 and 4 times speed to match viewport play rate
* Render audio to match playback speed
* Manage multiple sound effect directories
* Support audio playback during motion capture
* Use a greatly improved audio interface (including 4 fixes to 3ds max audio bugs)
* Extend MaxScript Support with 46 scriptable audio commands
* MAX 9 (win32 and x64) support (new with Version 1.31)

http://www.boomerlabs.com/files/images/SoundTrax%20Main%20UI.gif

http://www.boomerlabs.com/files/images/SoundTrax%20Screen.gif

ThirdEye

02-08-2009, 01:11 PM

I read sometimes ago that Polyboost and Cat will be integrated into the 3ds Max, I don't know if that's true or not, but that would be amazing!

Would it? If they were already available as plugins what's new? If someone needs them he can buy them already.

02-08-2009, 01:14 PM

Yes it would be amazing, simply because of the fact you dont have to buy the extra plugins

right, why pay $154 for a plugin when you can pay $3500 for it.

Billabong

02-08-2009, 01:14 PM

Would it? If they were already available as plugins what's new? If someone needs them he can buy them already.

Yes it would be amazing, simply because of the fact you dont have to buy the extra plugins

Billabong

02-08-2009, 01:20 PM

right, why pay $154 for a plugin when you can pay $3500 for it.
or upgrade your max, and not have to worry about spending an few hundred after you have already spent a good bit . So yes you are saving a few hundred if you upgrade, if not, then buy the plugins

SO are you guys saying its not great to have the extra tools in max?

02-08-2009, 01:25 PM

or upgrade your max, and not have to worry about spending an few hundred after you have already spent a good bit . So yes you are saving a few hundred if you upgrade, if not, then buy the plugins

SO are you guys saying its not great to have the extra tools in max?

I think it's great, it's just raining on my bitching parade :)

benytone

02-08-2009, 02:45 PM

Would it? If they were already available as plugins what's new? If someone needs them he can buy them already.
many members have educational license! not everyone can spend thousands of dollars trying to get a separate plugin

ThirdEye

02-08-2009, 02:57 PM

Yes it would be amazing, simply because of the fact you dont have to buy the extra plugins

Yep, amazing, instead of buying a 100 bucks plugin you have to buy an upgrade of a 3500 bucks app.

Billabong

02-08-2009, 03:03 PM

Actually the upgrade from max 2008 is $895.00. At least that's whats on their website. Which is a big difference from 3500 which you stated.

So yes this is amazing/great news. Try telling your boss after you upgraded your max or bought max for the first time, that you also need additional plugins to help with the modeling,etc. Let me know how that goes.

And also as Benytone has stated this is also great for educational members.

Honestly Thirdeye. I don't see your logic, simply because most upgrades in any app are because of plugin makers. So with that being said, I guess any new features that come from plugins isn't good news

I mean if you don't think this is some good news, then so be it, your entitled to your opinion. Just don't upgrade then.I didn't even know you used max. I thought you were strictly a Cinema 4D guy

ThirdEye

02-08-2009, 03:24 PM

Actually the upgrade from max 2008 is $895.00. At least that's whats on their website. Which is a big difference from 3500 which you stated.

what if i'm a potential new user that is missing something that isn't available in any Max plugins and i don't buy Max because of that? Having a new version that is just like a previous version + a couple already existing plugins doesn't help at all.

So yes this is amazing/great news. Try telling your boss after you upgraded your max or bought max for the first time, that you also need additional plugins to help with the modeling,etc. Let me know how that goes.

it depends on who my boss is, doesn't it?

And also as Benytone has stated this is also great for educational members.

yep, i agree with that

Honestly Thirdeye. I don't see your logic, simply because most upgrades in any app are because of plugin makers. So with that being said, I guess any new features that come from plugins isn't good news

ok i think i found the problem here that explains why i don't think this would be a great update IF it was just Max 2009 + PB + CAT (and in fact it's not because the viewport renderer to me is already more interesting than PB or CAT). I disagree because i don't think upgrades should happen because of plugin makers. Upgrades should, in an ideal world, happen because some features are missing or even better because the R&D dept of a software company invents something new that pushes the boundaries of what is already available in the CG world or in that specific app. Take XSI 7 for example, the introduction of ICE has created an enormous amount of possibilities that simply were not possible for XSIers in previous versions. That's a great update for me.

I mean if you don't think this is some good news, then so be it, your entitled to your opinion.

thanks for that ;)

I didn't even know you used max. I thought you were strictly a Cinema 4D guy

So what, just because i don't use Max i can't have an opinion on cg news?

DDS

02-08-2009, 03:32 PM

Thirdeye I don't understand why you're being so much of a smart ass here, I don't think being so cold will bring conversations anywhere apart from discussion and mutual humiliation.

I agree with your point though, from my point of view, the fact they only implemented all polyboost is the only thing I will *really* make us of, in this new upgrade, therefore my company can keep on going with 2009+polyboost.

Billabong

02-08-2009, 03:33 PM

what if i'm a potential new user that is missing something that isn't available in any Max plugins and i don't buy Max because of that? Having a new version that is just like a previous version + a couple already existing plugins doesn't help at all.

how often would that actually happen My only answer to this is start learning to code, because that is pretty much going to happen in any app that has a potential new user

ok i think i found the problem here that explains why i don't think this would be a great update IF it was just Max 2009 + PB + CAT (and in fact it's not because the viewport renderer to me is already more interesting than PB or CAT). I disagree because i don't think upgrades should happen because of plugin makers. Upgrades should, in an ideal world, happen because some features are missing or even better because the R&D dept of a software company invents something new that pushes the boundaries of what is already available in the CG world or in that specific app. Take XSI 7 for example, the introduction of ICE has created an enormous amount of possibilities that simply were not possible for XSIers in previous versions. That's a great update for me.

Now that I can agree with

So what, just because i don't use Max i can't have an opinion on cg news?

Fair enough

KristopherLee

02-08-2009, 03:38 PM

So what, just because i don't use Max i can't have an opinion on cg news?

Kinda like the saying, "if you don't vote, don't say sh!t about what's going on." So, opinions thrown out there by people who don't use the product is as pointless as those who say scrambled eggs with ketchup on them is nasty as hell "even though I've never eaten them."

:rolleyes:

Michael McCarthy

02-08-2009, 04:58 PM

I think there are large pluses and minuses when plugins get integrated into 3dsmax:

Pluses:
*You don't have to pay for the extra plugins. If your on subscription this is even better.
*Plugins get a lot of Autodesk attention and development to integrate better, speed up, and increase stability. This now needs to be an Autodesk product and meet their standards
*Much more attention to integration with the whole application
*Much more attention and to bug fixes and a wider more diverse testing group.
*Plugins get recompiled and updated for every release now as they are part of the whole package or subscription. This is Important, as its one of the major issues plugins face (not being updated in time or working well with the new code for the first 6 months).

Minuses:
*If you already paid for it you feel a little cheesed
*Although there are the pluses from above for development, some would say that the plugins loose there cutting edge drive and innovation once acquired. I would agree on this point but say that I think in resent years Autodesk has done a much better job in this area. IE improvements to Biped, cloth, hair and MR have been great.
* Some would say that this is no real innovation in the 3d app itself and just gobbling up plugins does not make for a good new release.

I really don't agree with this last minus. The beauty of 3dsmax itself is that the developers had the forward thinking (that many applications are now clambering to get together) to make it very very easy to develop powerful tools and scripts for. 3dsmax has some of the best plugins around and in many cases some of these plugins are the entire reason a studio will adopted the product or adapt their pipeline. I feel as though Autodesk seeing the best of these innovations and being smart enough to bring them into the base applications is a great way to develop and get truly innovative tools.

On the 2010 release itself, it looks like there may be some of this but there is surly a ton of internal development and even overhauls to achieve everything that is in the press release. I am very exited for the release and think it will be a strong set of tools.

MHO
Michael McCarthy

cheebamonkey

02-08-2009, 05:08 PM

many members have educational license! not everyone can spend thousands of dollars trying to get a separate plugin

that's why they're students and not professionals. Unfortuantely not everything is and should be afforable to everyone and their mother.

cheebamonkey

02-08-2009, 05:13 PM

Kinda like the saying, "if you don't vote, don't say sh!t about what's going on." So, opinions thrown out there by people who don't use the product is as pointless as those who say scrambled eggs with ketchup on them is nasty as hell "even though I've never eaten them."

:rolleyes:

a silly comparison.

I don't use Max but I'm interested in their development and how it relates to other apps I do use. You certainly have no right to tell me I can't comment on what I see regarding said development and what other people are saying.

benytone

02-08-2009, 05:38 PM

that's why they're students and not professionals.
Oh ... Really??? are you kidding?...haha
.
Unfortuantely not everything is and should be afforable to everyone and their mother.
I totally don't agree with you

KristopherLee

02-08-2009, 05:45 PM

You certainly have no right to tell me I can't comment on what I see regarding said development and what other people are saying.

Actually, I do have a right to tell you. It's called the internet. So while you sit there on your throne of opinion, I will do the same. No compliment sandwich for you.

@Benytone - I agree with you 100%

hassearo

02-08-2009, 07:07 PM

This thread starts to get grumpy, now because of a c4d users opinion that he doesnt like plugins to be part of the main software and code needs to to be written inside autodesks office, bet hed love to have vray integrated in c4d next release.

I dont like to use plugins because of renderfarms, slow recompiles and so on, so for me this is good news, finally ill invest time in learning CAT and polyboost, etc, because now i know it ll stick for a while.
2010 looks really really promising!! just give me particles with real dynamics next time.

kenpimentel

02-08-2009, 08:20 PM

re: plugins
This is a huge strength of 3ds Max that no competitor can come close to touching. 3ds Max is in the enviable position of having a lot of R&D done by other experts. This R&D is then available to customers more widely through licensing. If someone builds the very best tool for XYZ, and you all agree that it is, then it would be insane for us to build something much less than XYZ on our own - without a very compelling reason. The net result is end-users get PROVEN technology integrated into the product. It's important that key technology is further developed and improved upon prior to releasing it and that it continues to be enhanced in future efforts. Some third-party technology is not critical to most users, and that can have a much slower evolution in the product (like ProSound).

Mental Ray, Hair and Cloth are good examples of technologies we've licensed and have continued to develop/refine in each succeeding release. We believe that through these efforts will be able to bring you critical expertise in each of these areas that would be difficult to find in other solutions.

We know we have still much to do in refining these solutions and improving workflows. We'll keep working hard and trying to earn your respect - even if plug-ins are invoved...

Magnus3D

02-08-2009, 09:13 PM

kenpimentel

02-08-2009, 09:28 PM

If buying/licensing plugins or other stuff for 3dsmax is the way Autodesk works because it's faster and cheaper and less work than inventing and creating stuff from scratch inhouse then common sense tells me the upgrades and the software itself should be cheaper than they are because buying and licensing usually costs less than creating and inventing stuff inhouse. I can't help wondering what makes 3dsmax cost so much as it's not R&D that users pay for..
/ Magnus

Seems you want to make a big deal out of a little. Plug-ins have their place in the decision of how to bring users the most amount of value in the least amount of time. They are never 100% of the answer like you imply. I think most of the community understands this. There is also a lot of effort we have to put into max just to provide the framework that makes all those plug-ins possible. Maybe you'll snear at that effort too, but it is fundamental - even if it isn't innovative of itself - it provides a platform for others to innovate - again, a core strength of 3ds Max and pretty much unique (over 1,000 free and commercial plug-ins). So, go ahead and bash away, but the reality is that plugins have more positives than negatives for the vast majority of people that use 3ds Max.

Magnus3D

02-08-2009, 09:46 PM

ThirdEye

02-08-2009, 10:37 PM

This thread starts to get grumpy, now because of a c4d users opinion that he doesnt like plugins to be part of the main software and code needs to to be written inside autodesks office, bet hed love to have vray integrated in c4d next release.

I already explained what i meant in my previous post, i assume someone who can write in english can also read it, perhaps i was wrong. And no, i wouldn't love an integration of Vray or any other plugin into C4D at all, i like how the coders of my personal app of choice keep writing stuff that isn't available from third parties. If i need a plugin i'll buy the plugin and support the third party who created it instead of expecting Maxon to integrate it. To each his own. However i don't want to interfere anymore, keep on posting folks.

kenpimentel

02-08-2009, 10:58 PM

No i'm not trying to rain on your parade here, i asked what i thought was a fair question and i expected a equally fair reply without any sarcastic comments in it. It's unfortunately not what i got. But ok.. i still understand what you're saying, you use licensed/bought plugins as a base to build your own stuff around which you implement into 3dsmax.

/ Magnus

I'm sure that speaking up for Autodesk is not popular on the forums, but what do you expect from someone who works there? Anyway, your "fair" question seemed to imply that we don't innovate with 3ds Max and just buy plug-ins. Maybe we don't do it as much as we all want, but that doesn't mean our resources are working on the right problems or that we're incapable of innovation.

Anyway, I'm used to getting bashed from 3ds Max users, but you seem to use C4D?

ulb

02-08-2009, 11:02 PM

personnally I don't like polyboost that much because I think those tools should be totally integrated in the ui, and I hate to have to use another window for that kind of things. It just disperses the tools instead of arranging them in an efficient way.
I think its a good thing that polyboost gets integrated into max, and even if I don't need it I'm ok with that.
I personnally don't think I will use the new viewport capabilities (I don't quite get how it could be useful excepted to develop games), but I'm also ok with that, if other users enjoy it, why not?

My main concern is that I don't believe AD will ever change/upgrade/improve substantially some deeper things, like the new features that would be the most useful and the most exciting to me (and I believe a lot of users) would be :

-new ui capabilities: with features like modo or houdini etc. IE being able to detach viewports in floating windows, resize/detach/minimize any panel.

-REAL paint tools like bodypaint for cinema4d

-Something like ICE in XSI which is probably the most powerful new feature I've seen integrated in a 3d app.

Unfortunately I don't even hope for any of those, because I don't think AD is willing to put enough time and money in 3dsmax developement. Please prove me I'm wrong on that!:D What makes things worse is that they keep releasing an update every year, which is just silly from any pov except from the commercial departement (the most important one I guess).

I really like 3dsmax so its a real pain for me to see that I'll probably never get what I want the most. And I can't believe 3dsmax will keep competing on the long run with apps with a more "open"/new/modern structure.

Magnus3D

02-08-2009, 11:10 PM

Ofcourse Autodesk's business strategies lately and in the past has annoyed many people, that's no secret. I'm sure you're aware of these things too.. anyhow i don't wanna stir up more dirt than i already done in this thread so i'm only gonna read this thread from now on so that the moderators won't close it. I hope you understand. :)

Just to answer your question, yes i'm using Cinema4D and Modo because of all the applications i tested those two are the most userfriendly and best one's i've come across.

Anyways, thanks for your replies and comments. It was interesting. :)

/ Magnus

Billabong

02-08-2009, 11:19 PM

you know, form what I have seen, most of you guys would find something to complain about, being stranded on a Island with nothing but bunch of hot horny naked women.

From what Ken has shown already. This is a very solid update to max and I for one am very excited about it for a change

And there is no such thing as a better tool , just better artists

kenpimentel

02-08-2009, 11:43 PM

My main concern is that I don't believe AD will ever change/upgrade/improve substantially some deeper things, like the new features that would be the most useful and the most exciting to me (and I believe a lot of users) would be :

-new ui capabilities: with features like modo or houdini etc. IE being able to detach viewports in floating windows, resize/detach/minimize any panel.

-REAL paint tools like bodypaint for cinema4d

-Something like ICE in XSI which is probably the most powerful new feature I've seen integrated in a 3d app.

Unfortunately I don't even hope for any of those, because I don't think AD is willing to put enough time and money in 3dsmax developement. Please prove me I'm wrong on that!:D.

I think we're working on proving you wrong. I sure wish I could give you the details, but if you've read my blog, I've outlined why products that have subscription programs can't be that free with information. It sucks for both of us.

The new Graphite modeling UI does do many of the things you mentioned. It's an example of where we're going with the whole UI of max - so I hope you like it! If you don't, I'm sure I'll hear about it.

kenpimentel

02-08-2009, 11:48 PM

Just to answer your question, yes i'm using Cinema4D and Modo because of all the applications i tested those two are the most userfriendly and best one's i've come across.

Anyways, thanks for your replies and comments. It was interesting. :)
/ Magnus

Sorry if I came across too strong, but this release is different than the last couple of releases and we are trying to get that message out before the bashathon starts. Glad you have products that work so well for you, hope you don't mind if we try to do the same for our users.

ulb

02-08-2009, 11:50 PM

I think we're working on proving you wrong. I sure wish I could give you the details, but if you've read my blog, I've outlined why products that have subscription programs can't be that free with information. It sucks for both of us.

The new Graphite modeling UI does do many of the things you mentioned. It's an example of where we're going with the whole UI of max - so I hope you like it! If you don't, I'm sure I'll hear about it.great!:bounce:

I would really like to be wrong, i'm just pessimist (realist?) by nature! :D

kenpimentel

02-08-2009, 11:51 PM

great!:bounce:

I would really like to be wrong, i'm just pessimist (realist?) by nature! :D

Realist=good
Pessimist=is a "pest" with a few additional letters thrown in, don't be one

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-08-2009, 11:56 PM

I already explained what i meant in my previous post, i assume someone who can write in english can also read it, perhaps i was wrong. And no, i wouldn't love an integration of Vray or any other plugin into C4D at all, i like how the coders of my personal app of choice keep writing stuff that isn't available from third parties. If i need a plugin i'll buy the plugin and support the third party who created it instead of expecting Maxon to integrate it. To each his own. However i don't want to interfere anymore, keep on posting folks.Then you must be not using any of the modules, which as far as I know are all based on 3rd party technology. So that is a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

-Eric

kenpimentel

02-09-2009, 12:21 AM

Then you must be not using any of the modules, which as far as I know are all based on 3rd party technology. So that is a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

-Eric

For me, it just seems so odd to see several C4D users complaining about 3ds Max and Autodesk on what is a very 3ds Max specific thread. Is it common for people on this forum to do that? Yes, everyone is welcome to their opinion, but I'm not sure that justifies doing whatever you want on a forum. Oh well.

bobtronic

02-09-2009, 12:28 AM

Then you must be not using any of the modules, which as far as I know are all based on 3rd party technology. So that is a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black.

-Eric

Just to clarify, none of the CINEMA 4D modules are based on 3rd party technology.

Also could we please stop turning this into a "my app is better than yours" thread. This is about Autodesk anouncing 3ds Max Design 2010.

cheers,
Matthias

Billabong

02-09-2009, 12:29 AM

I think some people just like to complain

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-09-2009, 12:34 AM

Wish I could answer you Ken, but only they can answer why they feel they must reply in the fashion they do.

-Eric

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-09-2009, 12:35 AM

Just to clarify, none of the CINEMA 4D modules are based on 3rd party technology.

Also could we please stop turning this into a "my app is better than yours" thread. This is about Autodesk anouncing 3ds Max Design 2010.

cheers,
MatthiasSo Thinking Particles and the Advanced Rendering modules are not based on Cebas technology? And the Hair module is no longer based on Joe Alter's Shave and a Haircut?

-Eric

bobtronic

02-09-2009, 01:06 AM

So Thinking Particles and the Advanced Rendering modules are not based on Cebas technology? And the Hair module is no longer based on Joe Alter's Shave and a Haircut?

-Eric

Thinking Particles shares code from Cebas but it is the exception. Advanced Render and Hair were developed by MAXON. Anyway lets stop here, this thread is not about MAXON and CINEMA 4D.

cheers,
Matthias

Kabab

02-09-2009, 01:19 AM

Wow you guys are hard to please! For a messily $895 seems like your getting a lot of bang for buck (as long as it works as advertised).

asayan

02-09-2009, 01:47 AM

I like turtles. :)

...oh...and thanks for the heads up, Ken...2010 release looks promising. :thumbsup:

rohand

02-09-2009, 01:56 AM

hi ken,

Firstly, great release.

This is the first time in over 3 versions that I am really impressed with what you guys have come up with. Great feature list,( except for the realtime viewport, was expecting an IPR system. )

I just have 2 requests.

1. Dont really care out a real-time viewport ( becuase it's purely hardware dependent, without a good card , its useless) All I want is an IPR system, like every other software. Something like MODO would be really cool.

2. Kindly keep developing the SCANLINE RENDERER. It's a good renderer, with some anti-aliasing control and faster light tracer, you could actually get some pretty good renders out of it.I still use it for most of my simple particle renders and simpler stuff. Also because I dont really care about Mental Ray :) I am mostly a vray guy.

But, once again great release.

Keep up the good work.

with regards
Rohan Dalvi

cresshead

02-09-2009, 02:01 AM

Just to clarify, none of the CINEMA 4D modules are based on 3rd party technology.

cheers,
Matthias

not that i'm being 'picky':rolleyes:

note>
advanced renderer was based on code from final render by cebas [cinema v8]
hair was based on joe alter's excellent shave and a haircut
sketch and toon was based on cebas final toon
thinking particles is from cebas

so 50% that's 4 out of the 8 modules are from a 3rd party plugin developer...

KristopherLee

02-09-2009, 02:23 AM

1. Dont really care out a real-time viewport ( becuase it's purely hardware dependent, without a good card , its useless) All I want is an IPR system, like every other software. Something like MODO would be really cool.

Hmm, maybe I'm missing something but isn't the "realtime viewport" exactly like that? Doesn't it update according to what you're doing to the scene?

Per-Anders

02-09-2009, 02:34 AM

not that i'm being 'picky':rolleyes:

note>
advanced renderer was based on code from final render by cebas [cinema v8]
hair was based on joe alter's excellent shave and a haircut
sketch and toon was based on cebas final toon
thinking particles is from cebas

so 50% that's 4 out of the 8 modules are from a 3rd party plugin developer...
Uh... you don't have a clue what you're talking about.

AR was not based on code from final render, Maxon and CEBAS shared code that made it into both Final render stage 0 and AR 1 (for the GI) back at version 7 (this is no longer in AR). Cebas then went on to develop a few additional post effects (DOF & Highlights) and Shaders (Spectral and SSS) that are made available as part of AR to this day.

HAIR is 100% proprietary and is not based on any solution out there, trust me Shave has zero on it. C4D Had a bridge to Shave & Haircut in the past before HAIR though.

Sketch & Toon is 100% proprietary, I have no idea where you think it's in any way based on Final Toon. Have you even used these products?

There are in fact several elements that started life as third party components. These are not the droids you're looking for though. I have absolutely no clue how this is relevant to this thread though.

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-09-2009, 02:50 AM

It has to do with the fact that all companies in one way or another use 3rd party tools in the development of their product(s). It is your users who feel that your products rely on totally proprietary code, which isn't totally true. Some of the modules, and shaders, began as relationships with 3rd party, now if it is the same now may be a different story. But would you be were you are now if you never had those 3rd party relationships? No one will ever know.

Personally, I think both products have their places in the markets and without working with 3rd parties they probably wouldn't be where they are now.

-Eric

Per-Anders

02-09-2009, 03:20 AM

visionmaster2

02-09-2009, 03:56 AM

the most amazing thing, in this 3dsmax release, is the amount of testosterone that it produce here :)

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-09-2009, 04:06 AM

Sorry, but I still fail to see how this is at all relevant to a thread about 3D Max?

Third party development is vital to any reasonably mature product. Though you're still incorrect in your factual accuracy and assumptions that you've written in this thread about the modules in Cinema 4D. I'd also like to point out that these are not "my users" either, I'm not Maxon. Regardless of all this I really think that this discussion needs to get back on to 3DMax, there is no room for app comparison threads on CGTalk.You are correct, sorry for my incorrect statements, and thanks for the facts you have provided.

The problem comes from the fact that some users aren't happy to see 3rd party tools included to advance Max. These users sometimes come from other packages, who have no idea that their package of choice has done the same thing. Others feel that Autodesk need to invest the money to do it themselves. The problem also comes from the others users who keep saying that Autodesk should include plugin X,Y, and Z in the next release. It is a very grey area where you can't make everyone happy.

I would like to point out that from your resume you are an example of a 3rd party who has helped better Maxon products with your tools.

-Eric

Per-Anders

02-09-2009, 04:48 AM

I would like to point out that from your resume you are an example of a 3rd party who has helped better Maxon products with your tools.
Because? To whom? What's your point? :curious:

Seriously I don't know how else to say this to make it simpler, but this is a thread about 3D Max. Anyone here ever heard of it? Please keep it on topic folks.

benytone

02-09-2009, 05:12 AM

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-09-2009, 05:24 AM

Sounds like there should be some more info posted to Shane's area blog on monday. From Ken's announcement blog:Shane is warming up a big blog posting to explain the new modeling tools. He’s got detailed menu pics and the background to answer your questions. I would guess he’ll post some serious technical details by Monday afternoon (EST). You might want to check in. We’re hoping a “surprise guest” will also be around to answer questions.-Eric

DuttyFoot

02-09-2009, 06:05 AM

Shane is warming up a big blog posting to explain the new modeling tools. He’s got detailed menu pics and the background to answer your questions. I would guess he’ll post some serious technical details by Monday afternoon (EST). You might want to check in. We’re hoping a “surprise guest” will also be around to answer questions.

currently dont use max, just maya but this new release got me somewhat excited to see what they have in store.

theo

02-09-2009, 07:21 AM

Equinoxx

02-09-2009, 07:58 AM

Well, I for one am really excited about some if not all of the anounced features ...
Containters sound damn interesting and would love to know more about that alone
(here's hoping it's a re-invented 'xref' solution)

You're doing great Ken, don't let all of these here non-max users get to you hey.
As for the rest of you .. cool it allready. As Per said, this is about the max anouncement and NOT about anything else.

I'm happy ... looks like we're getting a great upgrade for our subscription.

Henrik-Fort

02-09-2009, 08:14 AM

I think 3d max is a great tool and i enjoy using it i
dont have the time to complain about every little detail
every our you are here to complain you loose 150$+
so get back to work or i will fire you :D

Henrik:-)

scrimski

02-09-2009, 08:48 AM

I just can't believe how they dared pushing another version yet again without a node-based material editor.
If the game here is implementing plugins, they could have at least just throw nodejoe in it.Good point.

Having that said, the list looks promising, can't wait to see that PFlow goodies in action.

ceasare

02-09-2009, 09:11 AM

Hello,
First I want to compliment the autodesk team with their hard work for this new release!

I know why you guys have put a lot of effort in this release because there's a lot going on concerning the development of other packages like Modo, Lightwave, Blender..
Especially Blender develops very fast and has to be concerned as a serious rival.
Every once in a while I install it and give it a try, but I very much like the stackable workflow of 3dsmax (something that finally has been implemented by Newtek in their new CORE).
For me, Blender will be used for a commercial project this year, because it's free and stacked with a lot of serious features.
As a European subcription-user I pay a lot to keep 3dsmax a high-end package, and I expect of AD that it remains that way, and that the future will bring more revolutionary updates that will make 3dsMax differ from other (free) packages.

Lightwave was my first 3d-program on PC/Amiga, but 3dsmax made me switch to version 6 for the single interface of modeling and animation. (now the guys from Newtek finally took a look at 3dsmax)
I still have my lightwave updated till the latest release.

I'm a little scared for the difference of the 'design' and the 'plain' version of 3dsMax in the future. How much will they eventually differ?
Most of the time I create graphics and animations for broadcast on TV, but sometimes I have to do a productplacement or an architectural visualisation.
It would be a nightmare if I have to buy plugins for my 3dsMax 2020 for features that are available in my 3dsMax Design 2020 and viceversa.

The fact that I have to make a rigid choice on an uncertain base makes me feel uncomfortable. I like 3dsMax for its versability, from absolute realism to plain straight graphics, and it seems to me that this versability is going to split-up.

Ken could you help me a little on this?

best regards,
Ceasare

BcM

02-09-2009, 12:56 PM

That interface, first Autocad, now 3ds max. All in Fisher Price style

*Sigh*

http://www.xs4all.nl/%7Emettes/My%20first%203d%20exp.jpg
'Look at me Mommy, ive got a ribbon interface and lame glossy buttons!'

Why...why? Why no node based material editor...sniff

kenpimentel

02-09-2009, 01:48 PM

That interface, first Autocad, now 3ds max. All in Fisher Price style

*Sigh*

'Look at me Mommy, ive got a ribbon interface and lame glossy buttons!'

Why...why? Why no node based material editor...sniff

Trust me, we were skeptical too about the ribbon. The beta forum was also not an instant convert, but after living with it for some weeks and a lot of refinement from our team, I was actually surprised to see it start popping up in the "reasons to upgrade" survey we did on the forum. Here are the results (top one is highest priority) from about 20 forum participants. Note, this was based on a beta version that was still missing some things - so the results will likely change when we do the survey around the release candidate.

Graphite Modeling System/Ribbon
Viewport: Review3
Containers
pFlowAdvanced
New MR: flicker removal, tile frame buffer, multi-map, etc
Cloth improvements
Xview
Material Explorer
Linear color workflow (gamma)
Scene Explorer
Pflow samples
ProSound
ProOptimizer
Maxscript improvements
Hair/fur
OBJ importer
Biped improvements

BcM

02-09-2009, 02:00 PM

Trust me, we were skeptical too about the ribbon. The beta forum was also not an instant convert, but after living with it for some weeks and a lot of refinement from our team, I was actually surprised to see it start popping up in the "reasons to upgrade" survey we did on the forum. Here are the results (top one is highest priority) from about 20 forum participants. Note, this was based on a beta version that was still missing some things - so the results will likely change when we do the survey around the release candidate.

Graphite Modeling System/Ribbon
Viewport: Review3
Containers
pFlowAdvanced
New MR: flicker removal, tile frame buffer, multi-map, etc
Cloth improvements
Xview
Material Explorer
Linear color workflow (gamma)
Scene Explorer
Pflow samples
ProSound
ProOptimizer
Maxscript improvements
Hair/fur
OBJ importer
Biped improvements

First of all, thanks for responding. I just had to make that wee bit childish photoshop ;)

I must say, 20 people does sound a bit on the short side for a program with such a huge user-database.

The question i really need to ask is. Is there a way to go back to the default userinterface? Or is there an alternate darker interface?

KristopherLee

02-09-2009, 02:26 PM

Ken, you put up with some SH!T don't you? Well, you're better than me, either that or you're forced to play nice. (and dont say both ya sarcastic AD son of a.. ;) )

I went from Max to Maya for a few reasons but the way things look on this new Max, it makes me want to reconnect with it and see if I should be using it again for client work. I just hope the amount of change you're bringing to Max will be the same focus on Maya and such.

Can't wait to read more about what you have in store for Max.

soulburn3d

02-09-2009, 02:40 PM

2. Kindly keep developing the SCANLINE RENDERER. It's a good renderer, with some anti-aliasing control and faster light tracer, you could actually get some pretty good renders out of it.I still use it for most of my simple particle renders and simpler stuff. Also because I dont really care about Mental Ray :) I am mostly a vray guy.

Here here. That's the beauty of adding features to the scanline renderer, such as new maps, they automatically work in a lot of renderers, not just one renderer when you make a mr specific map.

- Neil

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-09-2009, 02:43 PM

I'm a little scared for the difference of the 'design' and the 'plain' version of 3dsMax in the future. How much will they eventually differ?
Most of the time I create graphics and animations for broadcast on TV, but sometimes I have to do a productplacement or an architectural visualisation.
It would be a nightmare if I have to buy plugins for my 3dsMax 2020 for features that are available in my 3dsMax Design 2020 and viceversa.They won't be able to do what you are proposing. This is no longer Max and Viz where the products were produced in seperate binaries. If a feature is made available for one, it will be in the other, but like the Lighting Analysis tool the UI is disabled from the 3ds Max interface, but the plugin is still there.

So far in 2 releases the only difference is the Lighting Analysis and SDK, besides the defaults, documentation, and other simple cosmetic differences. If you need both the Lighting Analysis and SDK, then use Design and join the ADN, problem solved. Remember CAT has been made available for both as well, even though most would probably consider that an entertainment market tool and not a design/visualization market tool. So I think you are worrying about things that you really have no reason to worry about.

-Eric

kenpimentel

02-09-2009, 03:04 PM

I must say, 20 people does sound a bit on the short side for a program with such a huge user-database.

The question i really need to ask is. Is there a way to go back to the default userinterface? Or is there an alternate darker interface?

We had 20 people respond to the survey (several hundered were asked for a response). It was an informal survey, so it wasn't that surprising. Our normal survey response is in the 100+.

You have control over the UI (as you always have had) and yes, we're shipping an alternate darker interface (the default for 3ds Max).

deafduck

02-09-2009, 03:16 PM

The enhanced viewport display support is very welcome but what kind of graphics accellerator card will be required to handle that kind of display? Will I need a $2000 graphics card?

Otherwise the feature list looks great to me!

I think its a great thing for Max to license plugins to use in the general max release. I had a license for polyboost but got fouled up on it at some point and lost it. It has some nice features but I didn't miss them so much I wanted to pay another $150 for it. If I am patient, looks like that functionality will come out with Max 2010.
Any and all Mental Ray enhancements are always welcome.

Mahlon

02-09-2009, 04:43 PM

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-09-2009, 04:44 PM

Shane has posted Imagery, Movies, and Info on the Ribbon and Graphite tools to his blog here (http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_shane/blog_detail/100_new_modeling_features/).

-Eric

Here is a quote from the post, the import stuff, IMO, has been bolded:Yes that’s right this is quite possibly the biggest feature release ever for modeling and much of that credit goes to the addition of the widely popular PolyBoost (http://www.polyboost.com/features.htm) tools. As many of you have guessed already, we did indeed license PolyBoost but no this isn’t just slapping an Autodesk sticker on the toolset and calling it done. We sought out for something much bigger than that!

For starters the UI for PolyBoost has been completely integrated into a new modern UI framework and we have rebranded it as Graphite Modeling Tools. I’m sure some will go “oh yuck it’s the ribbon” but I think once you give it a try you might have a different opinion. The creator of PolyBoost himself thinks this is a great improvement over the previous UI and you will likely discover many features you never knew existed before.

There are several tweaks and improvements to the previous PolyBoost tools and additional parts of the code have now been moved into C++ features integrated into the core of Max. Probably the best news of it all is Carl-Mikael Lagnecrantz (the creator of PolyBoost) will be working hand-in-hand to develop and improve the new Graphite Modeling Tools with us.

kenpimentel

02-09-2009, 05:02 PM

Hey Ken, you're doing a great job fielding these questions. I can tell you we're excited here at FedEx about the new modeling stuff -- and the viewport rendering, both of which will benefit my job, for sure. Looks like a very 'fat' release, and we appreciate it.

Good to get this thread back on track! We want to hear what 3ds Max users think about this release - both positive and negatives. Glad you fall into the "positive" column - which seems to be where most 3ds Max users are falling based on the posts I've seen.

BigPixolin

02-09-2009, 05:26 PM

which seems to be where most 3ds Max users are falling based on the posts I've seen.

I agree. The people bitching at this point would complain no matter what was/is added to max.

spacefrog

02-09-2009, 05:40 PM

i have to say i 've not seen so much positive feedback for a coming Max release since .... well, since i started to hang arround here on cgtalk...things look like this will be a great release at last and after all :applause:

BcM

02-09-2009, 05:49 PM

I agree. The people bitching at this point would complain no matter what was/is added to max.

I must say i do not agree with you on that part. For me, the biggest problem with the new 3d studio max is the interface. I have used Autocad 2009 for a while, but switched back because of the glossy buttons, the big red A, silky smooth fonts, icons which make no sense when you are used to the text-buttons etc.
3d studio max 2009 was for me one of the best updates it had in years. Not due to all kind of features i would never use, but mostly the stability which went up a thousand times.

And in my opinion 3d studio max needs a total new core rewrite or something. Look at the physics, not realtime. Or a complete sweep. Multiple modifiers which are useless, Video post. Proboolean AND Boolean.
It makes no sense.

And because for example, the real time shadows don't work very well with Vray, it is completely useless for me.
The new scene explorer is slow compared to the select by name, and i have no good words for the viewcube at all (mainly because navigating through 3d space is the easiest thing in ever in 3d studio max)

It just seems that Autodesk wants to make their complete product line look the same. With a giant letter in the left corner, be it an A, M, X or whatever, a nice viewcube and so on. It just shouldn't be there. The applications are different, let them be different.

Oh i love 3d studio max, but at the same time i hate it. But i guess that's good, keeps me sharp, on the lookout for other programs.
And that it turn keeps Autodesk sharp, on the lookout for other programs (to assimilate ;))

I don't mean in that bad, but i cannot worship Autodesk...not yet.

cresshead

02-09-2009, 05:51 PM

this looks like a fantastic release...adding polyboost and making it even BETTER is just wonderful news...re the sculpting vid...i surpose you can turn on symetry as well yeah?

also the insert loop is something i've been wanting ever since seeing it on maya training vids from digital tutors!

nice one!

Gwot

02-09-2009, 05:55 PM

This, combined with CAT and the realtime stuff is going to pull me in as a customer. Max is the only one out of the big 3 that AD owns that I've always avoided purchasing, and merely suffering through using at work. I still think you guys have a lot to learn from some of the smaller more innovative companies who focus on interface just as much as tools. Opening up the mouse input for customization would be a great start for example.

Regardless, I'll definitely be pushing to upgrade to 2010 at our studio, and even consider buying a personal license finally. Nice work on the vids/blog stuff too. As a character artist working in games you really took the wind out of the sails for modo/lw product updates in my opinion.

mustique

02-09-2009, 06:00 PM

I haven't been using max since v5 and was never impressed with a release since then. :)
But 2010 looks very tempting.

The mudbox like realtime viewports are very cool. It makes more sense in an animation capable package anyway. I hope other apps will get it too soon.

The polyboost integration is cool for the topology tools alone.

All these beautifull tools are destined to merge into one king kong some day,
each bringing its best features with it. Amen :)

Hordak

02-09-2009, 06:20 PM

I am looking forward to this... PFlowAdvanced; oh yea!

Have been looking at polyboost for so long without trying it, now there is no excuse not to.. :)

I tend to be negative when it comes to AD, but this does sound like a great update..

Good job AD:thumbsup:

Tirido

02-09-2009, 06:33 PM

This is certainly, the best release since Autodesk purchased Discreet. I watched videos at Shane's blog and all I can say is; wow, fantastic!

PolyBoost tools, new UI and lots of cool stuff... Great job Autodesk!:applause:

benytone

02-09-2009, 06:41 PM

http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/...eling_features/ (http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_shane/blog_detail/100_new_modeling_features/)!
oh my God! thats amazing! new modeling features:bowdown:

kees

02-09-2009, 07:03 PM

And in my opinion 3d studio max needs a total new core rewrite or something.

I was waiting for one of the inevitable 'new core' comments...

theo

02-09-2009, 07:04 PM

Good to get this thread back on track! We want to hear what 3ds Max users think about this release - both positive and negatives. Glad you fall into the "positive" column - which seems to be where most 3ds Max users are falling based on the posts I've seen.
I 'd hate to ruin the party here, but that's probably because you are only seeing the post which survived what I'd call a rude moderation.
I haven' post much on this forum (that's the least I can say), but seeing my post disappear without notice and for no apparent reason certainly won't encourage me to post anymore.

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-09-2009, 07:05 PM

This is certainly, the best release since Autodesk purchased Discreet.Just so you know Autodesk has always owned 3ds/3ds Max, AFAIK, but has been sold under one of its various children companies (Kinetix, Discreet, etc).

-Eric

Rivendale

02-09-2009, 07:07 PM

Hey Carl-Mikael here, the developer of PolyBoost.:)

So yes, it is finally official that PolyBoost has been integrated into 3ds max! I am very happy about this collaboration with Autodesk, with the close support of the 3ds max development team I have been able to take these tools further than would ever have been possible otherwise. Development will continue as well and my efforts of pushing the limits of 3ds max certainly are not over.

Like Shane's blog posts says this is not just the current version 4.1 of PolyBoost added to max. It is quite an extensive upgrade for the tools themselves as well, so existing PolyBoost users get an upgraded PolyBoost as well in 3ds max 2010.

Some quick info about new things related to PolyBoost:

Paint Deform - New sculpting brushes
Push, Relax, Relax constrained to surface, Pinch/Spread, Flatten, Smudge, Noise, Exaggerate. All these tools have Relax as a Shift key option for fast workflow. New deform directions Brush and View.

SubSurface Map - Greatly improved quality.
What this tool basically does is give you a map of how thick the surface is at certain points. This can as an example be used as a mask to blend between different materials, or to make lights affect thin parts of the model in a certain way. Here is an example of the new version of SubSurface Map, which also shows the effect of the "Blur" value. This is a viewport capture that is flat shaded to only show the texture map without shading:
http://www.cmlcreative.com/images/SubSurfaceMap.jpg

PolyDraw - Greatly improved speed overall, can now be used to resurface extremely high-poly objects.
SwiftLoop - Preview of loop before inserting, big speed improvements for inserting and sliding loops.
Create Topology (previously PolyTopo) - Now creates geometry as you draw the grid of lines.
All keyboard shortcuts enabled during tools, PolyDraw shortcuts simplified.
Edit Poly modifier support for all PolyDraw tools.

Viewport Canvas - Greatly improved speed, brush preview(for Clone/Paint), improved blending modes, new blending mode "Soft Light".
As Ken said though this is just the beginning for Viewport Canvas and there should be a bright future for this tool. It will likely be one of the things I focus on for the next release and with direct access to the core of 3ds max now many of the limitations of the current version of Viewport Canvas should be possible to eliminate. It is still a very useful tool in its current form, especially for cloning over texture seams and cloning from anywhere in the viewport.

PolyShift - Improved speed, you can now cancel a stroke by right-clicking.

Lots of other workflow improvments and fixes that add up to a lot more solid user experience.

I hope you enjoy this upgrade and that you who are new to PolyBoost don't get overwhelmed by the amount of new tools.:)

hanskloss

02-09-2009, 07:08 PM

Well, this looks really interesting. It pretty much makes Maya obsolete in the modeling department. As much as I love Maya its modeling tools are so archaic, uninspiring, slow and old in comparison that I am starting to think our company should just get rid of Maya alltogether. I have no doubt in my mind that there will be nothing that could come close to these new features in the next Maya release. Plugins or no plugins, modeling seems a lot more fun in max then in Maya. Sad:(

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-09-2009, 07:10 PM

So do you want a new core of forwards/backwards compatibility? At some point you have to give up some where. On top of that it would probably mean all plugins would have to be rewritten (not just recompiled like now), so if you think it takes a while for plugins to get updated how long do you think it would be if they had to rewrite them?

I personally think a rewrite is a bad idea. I would rather see the issues addressed and the core updated. This would probably save alot in development for both Autodesk and 3rd parties.

-Eric

spacefrog

02-09-2009, 07:39 PM

KristopherLee

02-09-2009, 07:47 PM

hehe - i think it's time for me to have a little sneak into the various maya forums to look if they already picked up the Max 2010 announcement ;-)

Trust me, I've already duped this the "Project Fukin' Thunderdome" - the top secret classified information from Autodesk and it's attempt to nullify the apps it bought to bring Mad Max to it's relative glory.*

*of course I like max too but boy I wish they'd do some more stuff with Maya, overall. The gradient background was nice.....

Strob

02-09-2009, 07:47 PM

WOW WOW WOW!!! :thumbsup:

Polyboost integrated in MAX! That is really great!!! This only addition makes max 10 a kick ass release for me!

CHRiTTeR

02-09-2009, 07:54 PM

Well i have to say autodesk has really done their homework this time!
This looks like its going to be a great update!

So do you want a new core of forwards/backwards compatibility? At some point you have to give up some where. On top of that it would probably mean all plugins would have to be rewritten (not just recompiled like now), so if you think it takes a while for plugins to get updated how long do you think it would be if they had to rewrite them?

I personally think a rewrite is a bad idea. I would rather see the issues addressed and the core updated. This would probably save alot in development for both Autodesk and 3rd parties.

-Eric

I wouldnt mind all those drawbacks of a rewrite, if it makes things noticable faster and robuster

MasterZap

02-09-2009, 07:59 PM

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f366/MasterZap/vp-gi3.jpg

mr Render vs. viewport....

/Z

halfknight

02-09-2009, 08:06 PM

what, still no realtime raytracing? :curious:

:):):)

undoz

02-09-2009, 08:19 PM

Rivendale

02-09-2009, 09:03 PM

May I ask how this Ribbon UI and the Graphite system works in relation to NURBS, Edit Spline, Edit mesh, Edit patch etc?

What changes have been made in the Edit poly rollout since there will be redundand functions carried over to the Ribbon UI?

Is the Graphite system fully compatible with the additional Edit Poly modifier that you can add ontop of the modifier stack, because from what I remember polyboost isn't.

Is the Ribbon UI used for anything else than the Graphite system ? Like brush management for skin or vertex paint, Layers, Mirror , or any other tools present inside Max.

Thanks
Hi undoz,

The Edit poly(and editable poly) rollout are the same as in previous versions. The Ribbon offers a new way of working with poly objects and contains all the regular editing tools + all the new modeling/selection tools from PolyBoost. There are people better suited to explain the future of the Ribbon but for this version of 3ds max focus has been put on the modeling workflow and the Ribbon contains mostly tools related to that.

The Graphite system is fully compatible with Edit poly modifier. Most of the tools from PolyBoost were that before too but additional tools have support for it now, pretty much all of them.

Rivendale

02-09-2009, 09:05 PM

WOW WOW WOW!!! :thumbsup:

Polyboost integrated in MAX! That is really great!!! This only addition makes max 10 a kick ass release for me!Cool man, that's great.:)

davius

02-09-2009, 09:20 PM

Without fear to exaggerate, this is THE update max needed for so long. Sure there are many, many things that could be done, but I just feel relieved that AD is really paying attention to the demands of their costumers rather than sit back and watch the bucks coming in (after all, AD owns Max, Maya and XSI).

Hope all this turns into serious competition inside AD in a way that each software team tries to push the next release to its limits.

As a side question - Ken, could you tell me if the Wire Parameter has been fixed? I've had terrible problems when making expressions for some parameters and trying to connect them in a two way fashion. And what about the Turbosmooth distorting the UV's? Has that been fixed too? Thanks and congratulations on this new Max!

erilaz

02-09-2009, 10:27 PM

Really great to see your hard work integrated officially into the Max work flow Carl-Mikael. You've made such incredible leaps in development that they had to stand up and take notice eventually! :D

I want to know when we're going to see full Python integration Ken! :wavey:

kenpimentel

02-09-2009, 11:40 PM

As a side question - Ken, could you tell me if the Wire Parameter has been fixed? I've had terrible problems when making expressions for some parameters and trying to connect them in a two way fashion. And what about the Turbosmooth distorting the UV's? Has that been fixed too? Thanks and congratulations on this new Max!

I have no idea. All I know is something like 300+ legacy defects were fixed. Probably the most important is that our Dev manager personally fixed selection so that it works as expected - with completely predictable results!

Did you report the other bugs?
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5600504&linkID=9241177

kenpimentel

02-09-2009, 11:42 PM

I want to know when we're going to see full Python integration Ken! :wavey:

Carl-Mikael rocks! He's been a great partner and we're lucky to have him on the team.

We just had a meeting about Python! Funny you should ask. It seems there is an easy way and a hard way to do it. Why do we always have to pick the hard way? Sigh...

Look at Blur's Python effort if you need something "right now". I thought they had made it publicly available - could be wrong.

R10k

02-09-2009, 11:54 PM

Going back to the start of the thread...

Wow! Is there a chance I'll be able to post on a forum and not get torn to shreds now?

I think the answer is: It's the internets! Of course not! But, nice work on the update :D (even though XSI is my cup 'o tea)

Stefan-Morrell

02-09-2009, 11:56 PM

has viewport AA been fixed in 2010?

looks like a big update,very cool to see the polyboost toolset integrated,I do hope they upgrade the painting though as Polyboost is pretty basic in that area.

Bobo

02-10-2009, 12:02 AM

That interface, first Autocad, now 3ds max. All in Fisher Price style

There is some confusion here. 3ds Max Design 2010 now supports the current Windows scheme. So if you DO have Fisher Price style UI in Windows, Max CAN show that (including anti-aliased fonts and custom shaded buttons, dropdownlists etc.) I am running the Classic Scheme in Windows and my Max 2010 looks just like 2009 and before. So more options, the (good or bad) choice is yours...

kenpimentel

02-10-2009, 12:05 AM

has viewport AA been fixed in 2010?

looks like a big update,very cool to see the polyboost toolset integrated,I do hope they upgrade the painting though as Polyboost is pretty basic in that area.

Yes, I saw the complaint on the forum about six months ago and used one of my silver bullets to get it fixed. Who says we never listen to you?

R10k

02-10-2009, 12:09 AM

Who says we never listen to you?

The people who wanted to kill the ViewCube?

:p

BigPixolin

02-10-2009, 12:25 AM

View >viewcube> Show the viewcube

erilaz

02-10-2009, 12:28 AM

We just had a meeting about Python! Funny you should ask. It seems there is an easy way and a hard way to do it. Why do we always have to pick the hard way? Sigh...

Look at Blur's Python effort if you need something "right now". I thought they had made it publicly available - could be wrong.

We've been toying with the blur plugin in the maxscript forums, so something truly integrated would be fantastic, seeing as so many applications are making it the scripting language of choice.

Can't wait to test out your research in this area. Python is truly a joy to code with.

R10k

02-10-2009, 12:32 AM

View >viewcube> Show the viewcube

Heh, yes, I know it can be turned off :)

dagon1978

02-10-2009, 12:37 AM

mr Render vs. viewport....

/Z
:D

Animation Flicker Reduction: mental ray
3ds Max Design 2010 enables users to render animation sequences in mental ray with indirect illumination calculations (Final Gather), greatly reducing or eliminating traditional flickering issues. The ability to use the Final Gather cache, and render animation sequences faster has also been improved.

hey zap! what is this? FG "multiframe"? :curious:

RockinAkin

02-10-2009, 12:43 AM

Yes, I saw the complaint on the forum about six months ago and used one of my silver bullets to get it fixed. Who says we never listen to you?
Awesome Ken - this is the first time in years that I've actually been excited for a new 3ds Max release.
Keep up the great work.

visualride

02-10-2009, 01:07 AM

Probably the most important is that our Dev manager personally fixed selection so that it works as expected - with completely predictable results!

Thanks for this info Ken! This has always been my number one complaint about Max. Finally being able to pick what is shown under the mouse will be so much nicer. With the addition of PolyBoost (with a new interface) now I'm truely looking forward to this release.

-David Cox
VFX Modeler

Kanga

02-10-2009, 01:30 AM

Polyboost AND cat,... my all time favorite toyz. How did they know? :)

These pieces of software deserve lots of reference material,... which is very expensive. Max has always had the best ref IMO, like to see these two follow.

Really great news,
5 from me.

Chris

Koogle

02-10-2009, 01:33 AM

Have you guys thought about adding way for users to switch to using the maya viewport controls.. the better one key [ALT]+mouse rotate/move etc... or perhaps just buying and integrating dRaster's Switcher. One thing I can't stand when I do have to use 3dsmax at times other than the generally terribly crap! data importing/exporting hassles between all of Autodesks acquired 3d apps.. is the stump of going back to using a really backard viewport control method.. it really sucks! Heck even MUDBOX GETS IT! You go and buy up plugins that do task specific things, but the general user interaction within your own viewport blows!, common you've owned Maya for how many years now.

Anyway otherwise it does all seem like a potentialy a good release for 3dsmax, the ribbon bar looks rubbish on a large widescreen display, quite a bit of a wasted of space going on.. and i couldn't stand loosing that much UI bar height... but it does look like you can detach it and have the UI shown in other ways so I guess there isn't any suckage in that respect, customization is key tbh! I'm curious to see if Maya got any better this year certainly there are things in 3dsmax made much easier without unnecessary retarded workflow steps, I miss not having in Maya and getting more so... shall wait and see. I am really getting sick of not just one perfect package though.. it sucks.

PS why is the noobcube still being shown, have Autodesk no shame to hide it?

R10k

02-10-2009, 02:07 AM

I am really getting sick of not just one perfect package though.. it sucks.

I can't tell if you're talking about a single perfect package, or just one package instead of a bunch being available... but both ideas are silly. There will never be a perfect package, and there's no need to limit packages to one, since different packages suit different people and workflows.

Features in different programs one-up each other all the time. That's 3D, and the person who wants the best of everything knows using more than one package goes with the territory.

cornel H.

02-10-2009, 02:10 AM

Have you guys thought about adding way for users to switch to using the maya viewport controls.. the better one key [ALT]+mouse rotate/move etc... or perhaps just buying and integrating dRaster's Switcher. One thing I can't stand when I do have to use 3dsmax at times other than the generally terribly crap! data importing/exporting hassles between all of Autodesks acquired 3d apps.. is the stump of going back to using a really backard viewport control method.. it really sucks! Heck even MUDBOX GETS IT! You go and buy up plugins that do task specific things, but the general user interaction within your own viewport blows!, common you've owned Maya for how many years now.

Agree 100% !!! This should be first on the list for Autodesk: Unify viewport controls among applications. C'mon it can't be that hard. I'm using dRaster Switcher. But this sort of thing should come with the application. This should be way more important than the silly viewcube. Wake up Autodesk.
Other than that it looks like a great release.

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-10-2009, 02:11 AM

cornel H.

02-10-2009, 02:37 AM

I agree everything should share Max's viewport controls :D.

Remember just cause you are comfortable with it doesn't mean that everyone is, and changing that would be very low on my list of priorities. You have a plugin that can do it so why not just use that?

-Eric

What kind of retarded comment is that ?
It is low on your list of priorities, because you are a Max-only chump.
For people who have to switch between applications a lot it would make life a lot easier.
From a company perspective it makes a lot of of sense: If you have a line of products, it makes sense to improve the usability by unifying the control options.

erilaz

02-10-2009, 02:49 AM

Keep it civil Cornel, there's no call for insults.

R10k

02-10-2009, 02:54 AM

If you have a line of products, it makes sense to improve the usability by unifying the control options.

I half agree with that idea. On one hand, yes, I somewhat I agree. On the other hand, even if the viewport controls are similar, the control conventions throughout each of the different programs are... well, different. Is it so hard to simply remember how each of the programs work? I seem able to switch between a ton of different programs without too much difficulty, and the fact they all have seperate controls actually helps, in that I can shut my brain off from trying to remember one program's controls while using another.

Sometimes I get things wrong with my remembering, but a two second look at the manual fixes all that. It's a small price to pay for not having some control mechanisms at work in other programs, which eventually muddies the waters. As an example, Motionbuilder has the option for XSI's camera controls, but I turned them off, simply because other parts of the program's controls were dissimilar to XSI, which meant I got confused (and frustrated) when things didn't fall into place as easily as the camera controls had.

Billabong

02-10-2009, 02:55 AM

I know someone has already asked this, but I do hope they have fixed the distortion with the UV's when using Turbosmooth

-B

DuttyFoot

02-10-2009, 03:13 AM

If you have a line of products, it makes sense to improve the usability by unifying the control options.

i guess adobe would be a good example

Koogle

02-10-2009, 03:52 AM

I can't tell if you're talking about a single perfect package, or just one package instead of a bunch being available... but both ideas are silly.

NO its not silly at all actually! Perhaps a hard thing to achieve in todays world, but not silly to think its not possible at all. Also has nothing to do with limiting packages to just one.

"Remember just cause you are comfortable with it doesn't mean that everyone is, and changing that would be very low on my list of priorities."

perhaps because Max default viewport controls suck, and maybe you should try something better? as arroagant as it may sound.. somethings are just done BETTER! lol, but seriously I used to Max exclusively years and years ago..I wouldn't have brought up viewport controls as an issue, plenty of other things but not that. Anyway I left it in favour of Maya for many other reasons ... but one thing niggles me when using other 3d apps is the viewport controls, [ALT] + LMB/MMB/RMB... some things are just better and they stick. Best thing I thought XSI did to encourage Maya uses to try XSI was add in option to allow Maya like user controls.. such a simple and small thing really, makes a big difference though, regardless of the rest of that applications workflow methodologies. Also has nothing to do with learning that apps keyboard controls, just a base viewport control preference.

"Unify viewport controls among applications"
Exactly.

"You have a plugin that can do it so why not just use that?"
I don't own 3dsmax, I do however come into using it on other peoples workstations on rare occasions, but its not my position to be installing plugins and licensing them. Its why I brought up the comment that it should just be added to the base package.

R10k

02-10-2009, 03:59 AM

NO its not silly at all actually! Perhaps a hard thing to achieve in todays world, but not silly to think its not possible at all. Also has nothing to do with limiting packages to just one.

So what are you talking about? One package that does everything you want?

MasterZap

02-10-2009, 05:22 AM

:D

Animation Flicker Reduction: mental ray
3ds Max Design 2010 enables users to render animation sequences in mental ray with indirect illumination calculations (Final Gather), greatly reducing or eliminating traditional flickering issues. The ability to use the Final Gather cache, and render animation sequences faster has also been improved.

hey zap! what is this? FG "multiframe"? :curious:

I'm not sure I can tell you what it is yet. But no, it's not just "multiframe". Way cooler.

Agree 100% !!! This should be first on the list for Autodesk: Unify viewport controls among applications

They did; it's called the viewcube.

I'd be in an uproar if Maya's silly viewport controls came to max. Exactly what is "retarted" with using the mouse wheel for pan/zoom and alt+mousewheel for orbit etc.? A single button and a modifier button, rather than wasting all three buttons and a perfectly usable modifier ONLY for nav??

/Z

Spacelord

02-10-2009, 05:35 AM

I'm not sure I can tell you what it is yet. But no, it's not just "multiframe". Way cooler.

Come on Zap spill the beans !!

Is there anything new on Importons/irradiance particles ?

How about saving exposure settings to the camera ? and render settings ?

The viewport rendering looks pretty good, what graphics card are you using ?

Koogle

02-10-2009, 05:45 AM

"They did; it's called the viewcube." LOL... gimmie break zap, before I pounce on mental ray!

and using the wheel zoom.. incremantal zoom steps, oh great.

BcM

02-10-2009, 07:26 AM

There is some confusion here. 3ds Max Design 2010 now supports the current Windows scheme. So if you DO have Fisher Price style UI in Windows, Max CAN show that (including anti-aliased fonts and custom shaded buttons, dropdownlists etc.) I am running the Classic Scheme in Windows and my Max 2010 looks just like 2009 and before. So more options, the (good or bad) choice is yours...

Woohoo! Thanks alot Bobo, just the information i needed to hear.
Incidently, could you tell me if there is any information about updates for Maxscript?

02-10-2009, 09:34 AM

Hey Carl-Mikael here, the developer of PolyBoost.
So yes, it is finally official that PolyBoost has been integrated into 3ds max!
I genuinely couldn't model in max without Polyboost - I am completely dependant on it in my workflow so it's great news that it's now 'standard'. :)

I just pray that you continue to be involved in it's development!

ysvry

02-10-2009, 09:55 AM

was redirected by a new post about new modeling tools , looking at the videos showing the new tools in work it looks to me as if they have straight been copied from blender especialy the drawing geometry on a mesh , well its open source so any body can rip the code. but saying it was from some other developer isnt true. That modeling on another mesh was my concept as I knew how useless sculpting hiress meshes were, so i asked the developer of the multi ress in blender to include such feature. go do a goole search and check when this feature first apeared if you dont believe me :P

02-10-2009, 10:14 AM

That modeling on another mesh was my concept
Yeah, I really don't think it was.

I think the first instance I can recall of seeing this was Silo. But I could well be wrong.

*Edit* - found this from 2004 : http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=183920

ThE_JacO

02-10-2009, 10:51 AM

Yeah, I really don't think it was.

I think the first instance I can recall of seeing this was Silo. But I could well be wrong
Feel free to go further back AJ :)
I think I was doing something rather similar hmm... in 97? The concept is ages old, and it's hardly been refined at all. It's only been given a couple clicks less and been made more poly friendly when box performance allowed it to be.

Ask anybody who had to clean and trace cloud derivations, push something through cyslice, any paraform product, or one of the two or three propietary softwares that came with systems back then.

For polys The same thing was possible as soon as the stack entry points were introduced in XSI (v3 in 2003 maybe?) with a shrink wrap stuck above the modelling stack and working normally below it. Minimal setup that could be reduced to a script and pretty much the same number of clicks.
For Maya it was available as in-house tools in several places roughly at the same time, if not a bit before.

Claiming having been the first to suggest it to blender development, that didn't even exist when this workflow was introduced, lives in the limbo between sad and funny :)
It would be like laying claim to being the one figuring out modern tweak tools. Maybe Mirai could aspire to part of that claim (and it would be up for dispute), but it's irrelevant since in these cases it's a very natural evolution of common-place procedures, nothing else.

Hawksmoor

02-10-2009, 11:13 AM

Really pleased to see polyboost folded into Max - as of now it almost has all of the outside tools I've always thought max was lacking. Still a few minor things I'd love to see (namely some of the extra topology tools from cgcoat, proper symmetry a la zbrush (not a mirror/weld modifier) and the symmetry and packing UV tools from UVlayout.

For an update thought this looks superb.

02-10-2009, 11:14 AM

Ah, thanks for the info Raffaele... I was specifically thinking about the 'painting' of topology over the top - but I'm well aware that my knowledge of these things is crap at best.

Also, I didn't want to blow my own trumpet but I recall a time when it was originally going to be '2d Studio'. I made a suggestion of adding an extra 'd' and the rest as they say, is history...

R10k

02-10-2009, 11:14 AM

The idea of a 3D teapot was mine, just so you all know.

CHRiTTeR

02-10-2009, 11:37 AM

what, still no realtime raytracing? :curious:

:):):)

Vray's RT renderer is scheduled to come out the 2nd quarter of 2009 :)
Although its not 'really realtime' it looks pretty darn fast!

shuggie

02-10-2009, 11:45 AM

"They did; it's called the viewcube." LOL... gimmie break zap, before I pounce on mental ray!

and using the wheel zoom.. incremantal zoom steps, oh great.

ctrl+ alt + mmb problem solved.

demoniorojo

02-10-2009, 12:14 PM

Wooow! amazing modelling tools!...:bowdown:great news!congratulations to Autodesk engineers for this release

kenpimentel

02-10-2009, 04:15 PM

I think this feature is kinda innovative (I'm sure some of you will tell me elsewise):

http://area.autodesk.com/index.php/blogs_ken/blog_detail/3ds_max_design_2010_xview/

AndHolzmeister

02-10-2009, 04:16 PM

anyone knows if the undo bug since max 2008 has been fixed.... how can anyone live without undo or worse undo skiping some undo passes as it is now in max 2009.

kenpimentel

02-10-2009, 04:27 PM

anyone knows if the undo bug since max 2008 has been fixed.... how can anyone live without undo or worse undo skiping some undo passes as it is now in max 2009.

We have a hot fix that is about to go live on our support site. Should happen by the end of this week.

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-10-2009, 04:33 PM

What kind of retarded comment is that ?
It is low on your list of priorities, because you are a Max-only chump.
For people who have to switch between applications a lot it would make life a lot easier.
From a company perspective it makes a lot of of sense: If you have a line of products, it makes sense to improve the usability by unifying the control options.Your right that should base those decisions on something like seat count or revenue, oh wait that would be 3ds Max and not Maya at the top of those lists. So I stick with my first statement. I also agree with the others that MMB with the optional CTRL and ALT, is a much better route to go. Remember 3ds Max is a Windows only application and works similar to Windows/Microsoft functionality. RMB in explorer and you get options and properties of what is selected, in 3ds Max you get a quad menu with options and properties of what is selected.

-Eric

DuttyFoot

02-10-2009, 04:43 PM

I think this feature is kinda innovative (I'm sure some of you will tell me elsewise):

now thats a tool to have. heck yeah its innovative. being that AD has max, maya, xsi, how do you go about determining what features are shared between the 3 apps.

SoLiTuDe

02-10-2009, 04:43 PM

We have a hot fix that is about to go live on our support site. Should happen by the end of this week.

Any chance that hotfix will be for max 2008? (as well as 2009)

Mahlon

02-10-2009, 04:52 PM

perhaps because Max default viewport controls suck, and maybe you should try something better? as arroagant as it may sound.. somethings are just done BETTER! lol, but seriously I used to Max exclusively years and years ago...

See, I guess it's just different strokes for different folks. I really didn't like maya's viewport controls at all. Where I can fly around max like I'm typing without thinking, Maya seemed cumbersome to me. But viewport nav is a personal thing, I think.

M.

cornel H.

02-10-2009, 05:02 PM

Your right that should base those decisions on something like seat count or revenue, oh wait that would be 3ds Max and not Maya at the top of those lists. So I stick with my first statement. I also agree with the others that MMB with the optional CTRL and ALT, is a much better route to go. Remember 3ds Max is a Windows only application and works similar to Windows/Microsoft functionality. RMB in explorer and you get options and properties of what is selected, in 3ds Max you get a quad menu with options and properties of what is selected.

-Eric

I can't believe how immature some responses are.
It is not about if Maya's or Max's control scheme is better.
It's about having the OPTION to choose.
Is that so hard to understand ?
If you have an option to choose from, then you can choose what makes you happy and I can choose what makes me happy. Comprende?
I would be great if Max would have the option to choose from different style control schemes. It has been done with great success in applications as Motionbuilder, Mudbox, XSI, Modo, etc ...

DuttyFoot

02-10-2009, 05:08 PM

I would be great if Max would have the option to choose from different style control schemes. It has been done with great success in applications as Motionbuilder, Mudbox, XSI, Modo, etc ...

thats a good point. dont forget that realflow has that option too. it would be nice if you did have that option.

kenpimentel

02-10-2009, 05:08 PM

now thats a tool to have. heck yeah its innovative. being that AD has max, maya, xsi, how do you go about determining what features are shared between the 3 apps.

We are still organized in product teams. So, it is more like if I see a feature I want from another product, it is available to me too. However, there is generally a lot of complication in getting these features as they are often so intertwined with the host app. For example, I wanted Maya's Paint Effects, but it would have required a monumental effort to get it into max because it wasn't built as a component in Maya. The answer is that each product team tries to send happy vibes to their set of customers with a proposed set of features. Sharing of features is defintely encouraged, though in practice it is really hard to do. That ICE sure looks tasty...

soulburn3d

02-10-2009, 05:15 PM

The Ribbon offers a new way of working with poly objects and contains all the regular editing tools + all the new modeling/selection tools from PolyBoost.

I assume all the new ribbon modeling tools have macroscripts that we can assign to hotkeys in the customize menu?

- Neil

Airflow

02-10-2009, 05:27 PM

Houdin's sticky spacebar nav is best, frees up the other buttons/modifiers for use in other operations. I love the way it works. Im more used to max's navigation, but having gotten used to max, maya, houdini, xsi, zbrush, bodypaint and so on its not a huge deal. I think AD should work on a suite that all aps share as an option, and continue working towards a unified system. Stupid idea, but what if you had a nav system that say made the boarder of the screen blue in max while navigating, red in maya and orange in xsi, but still was unified in all the apps. Again this would be an option for those who cross over alot and feel the need to be reminded what app they are in. Unlike the veiwcube you would have to switch it on as these people would be in the minority.
Somthing Id love to see would be adaptive ui, so if your modelling in polys, eveything non poly would be moved away from the ui and replaced with the most used tools, kinda like a word cloud, If your rigging and modelling the most used tools take precidence in the screen real estate.
Im gonna shut up now, my brain is tired.
Great updates btw.
Cant wait to see what treats maya is getting.
I sure as hell would love to see a rightclick (mid operation) undo apear in both of them, thats damn invaluable and people who havent used it dont realise how huge it is in allowing you to test out stuff and experiment without worrying and quitting out of somthing you already know dont work.

depleteD

02-10-2009, 06:07 PM

WEow this release sounds really huge,first time in a while that fx is getting an update, I cant wait to start playing with the pressure cloth with tearing. Wow. And mental mill! I just hope this shit is stable. :D

Jon A. Bell

02-10-2009, 06:26 PM

I have no idea. All I know is something like 300+ legacy defects were fixed. Probably the most important is that our Dev manager personally fixed selection so that it works as expected - with completely predictable results!

Did you report the other bugs?
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5600504&linkID=9241177

One of those legacy defects (I hope) is Lens Effects in Video Post -- which I discovered when I finally got around to using 3ds max 2009 in production. To my astonishment, Lens Effects has been completely broken in the last *3* versions of 3ds max -- the last time it worked properly was 3ds max 8, which I'm still having to use for various projects.

No joke -- the Lens Effects feature in Video Post is completely broken in 3ds max 9, 2008, and 2009, and it literally crashes max 2009 64-bit. I'm amazed that no one from QE caught this and/or that Autodesk didn't think this was worth fixing in the last 3 years.

(And yes, I understand the argument that most people put in glows and lens flares in their compositing programs, but there's still no reason for a previously-working feature to be broken/ignored for 3 versions of a product.)

Now, having issued my complaint, let me temper it by saying that the inclusion of an integrated, improved Polyboost into 3ds max 2010 is FANTASTIC -- and I love the new Mudbox-like sculpting tools shown in the videos!

-- Jon

MasterZap

02-10-2009, 06:39 PM

Lens Effects in Video Post

People use Video Post? :eek: RLY!?

/Z

punchatz

02-10-2009, 06:55 PM

Ken Wrote "That ICE sure looks tasty..."

Oh it is....and so does your new modeling tools and viewport rendering...Lets share!!

Great looking release Ken! I hope AD treats XSI as well as it seems they are treating max!

Greg

Jon A. Bell

02-10-2009, 07:21 PM

People use Video Post? :eek: RLY!?

/Z

Yep, it's still very useful for creating quick and dirty effects within your max scenes, which you can render as separate passes for later compositing. I also like to use it to rip the alpha channels out of shots when Combustion won't do it properly.

-- Jon

leigh

02-10-2009, 07:44 PM

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-10-2009, 07:59 PM

I can't believe how immature some responses are.I am not the one throwing out insults to other forum goers with my post.I would be great if Max would have the option to choose from different style control schemes. It has been done with great success in applications as Motionbuilder, Mudbox, XSI, Modo, etc ...Do you really know that it is great sucess? I am sure Ken knows if it is worth investing the time and money to do something like that or not, because he can get the facts that you don't have access to.

I am sure that if the demand was high enough for such a feature that it would show up. My guess is there are more people like me who have that very low on what they need. In all reality have zero need for it, especially if it would require resources being taken from something I do need.

-Eric

kenpimentel

02-10-2009, 08:05 PM

soulburn3d

02-10-2009, 08:37 PM

3) Autodesk started with the much loved viewcube/steeringwheel (actually, 90% of reviewers did love it - along with new users)

I'm afraid I must disagree. Not that cg forums are necessarily the best basis for such things, but I can't even start to tell you how many threads people have started asking how to turn these features off. It's always dangerous to make statements like "Everyone agree that...", since there's so much diversity in the cg industry. But the desire to get rid of the viewcube and steering wheel is about as close to unanimous as I've ever seen in my lifetime :)

- Neil

spacefrog

02-10-2009, 08:52 PM

...90% of reviewers...

reviewers are not users.....
maybe there is a specific amount of people who use max that rarely, that they can't remember the viewport navigation from one session to the next.
ViewCube together with the Steeringwheel have become a synonym for the "Vista" of 3d app mis-features. Most user mention them only to bring some humor into too serious debates...

Gwot

02-10-2009, 09:02 PM

I'm hoping I can terminate this discussion:
1) Almost everyone thinks their product does navigation better than the other product
2) Autodesk thinks it is important that users can move between products with less effort
3) Autodesk started with the much loved viewcube/steeringwheel (actually, 90% of reviewers did love it - along with new users)
4) Autodesk has extended this effort by the adoption of the ribbon by most products
5) Autodesk is not finished. We may not be tackling things in the order you think is most important, but we're tackling the issues. There has been plenty of debate about the "one navigation paradigm to rule them all".

You could solve most arguments related to these points by opening up customization of the mouse to include navigation as well as tool/command execution. Silo has been doing it better than you guys for years and it's a cheap 100 dollar modeler (or it was anyway until recently).

1. In silo you can have whatever viewport nav you want just by changing the mouse+ctrl/alt/shift combinations in your mouse config. This way NOBODY can ever bitch about this bs again, so yes, in this case it really is better than all of them.
2. See my answer to #1
3. You can turn it off so I don't see why anyone makes a big deal about this anymore.
4. Clicking buttons and digging through menus and shelves is not my idea of good workflow. It breaks my focus on what I'm doing in the viewport. The ribbon looks like it is only marginally better than the original menu-fest that made polyboost a rather ugly modeling solution despite all the cool tools. Again, see my answer to #1 on how to fix this. Give me access to the mouse input and modifier key combos for it so that if I don't want to be digging through that fugly looking bloated ribbon I don't have to.
5. I find it absurd that none of the big studio apps (before autodesk owned them all) never considered this avenue of user customization. It would immediately render more than half the bitch fests about UI and stupid nav preferences POINTLESS. It wouldn't even have to change how max works out of the box since this would simply become the main preset.

japetus

02-10-2009, 09:05 PM

I hate the viewcube and steering wheel, but know how to disable it so it doesn't bother me anymore. :)

I can't wait for this release of max, it looks to be uber awesome! It's been a while, but this has been worth the wait.

Koogle

02-10-2009, 09:32 PM

japetus

02-10-2009, 09:53 PM

yeah think I'll finish my discussion here aswel.. with a 'LOL' at most those points, just wow -dismal... I think that about sums up what my feelings are on those points from Autodesk and from what we've seen so far in there efforts regarding those points.

well regardless of how you feel about Autodesk, you must admit that this release of max is going to be pretty killer.

Hordak

02-10-2009, 09:59 PM

Come on guys this release sounds great and every app has its own problems even those not owned by AD!
I don't understand all the hate on this thread.. The viewcube can be turned off so it's not really a problem. I hate it too and the steeringwheel, but it's an option to those who like it.

Koogle

02-10-2009, 10:12 PM

yeah it does look like a good release for 3dsmax.

deafduck

02-10-2009, 10:27 PM

A large part of why I bought Max version 1 (quite a while ago) was that it was backed by a big company that had a solid position in the graphics industry. I had NO idea it would become as dominant as it is today. I feel pretty good... looks like I backed the right horse for once.
Prior to that I had been working with software from a company that folded in about 1990. I didn't much like being left with orphaned software that I had put a lot of effort into learning how to use. I am very happy that not only is Autodesk and Max still around after all these years but Max continues to be a very good value.
I am looking forward to Max 2010 probably more than most releases I have anticipated in the last few years. It looks like not only is Max still supported but a lot of nice things are happening.

No software is perfect but Max and Autodesk does a lot of things really well. Its an amazing application, whatever its faults.

kenpimentel

02-11-2009, 12:16 AM

No software is perfect but Max and Autodesk does a lot of things really well. Its an amazing application, whatever its faults.

Careful, endorsement of Autodesk is generally frowned upon in these forums. Though we may have earned a 1 week grace period due to the max 2010 announcement.

Thanks for the feedback - from all of you. You have no idea how much it means to me that we've finally met your expectations. I've been sending your positive vibes all around Autodesk and the dev team are walking around with a new bounce in their step. After being pounded for a few years (justified I'm sure) it is just so wonderful to be where we are now.

I know you all think I'm a terrible tease. But really, we've just gotten started. Eric, Bobo and others can confirm this if they want (without releasing ANY details).

Airflow

02-11-2009, 12:50 AM

Well, without releasing any details, thank them and the dev team from us. :P

And for the record, I like the viewcube, its a good flashy tool for showing clients what their moneys is paying to build in archvis and letting producers/directors have a "play", but Im in the teeny mirority I guess :)

Rivendale

02-11-2009, 12:53 AM

I genuinely couldn't model in max without Polyboost - I am completely dependant on it in my workflow so it's great news that it's now 'standard'. :)

I just pray that you continue to be involved in it's development!
Thanks AJ, I appreciate that! I will be involved in the development for sure, I'm excited with the possibilities for the next release.

I assume all the new ribbon modeling tools have macroscripts that we can assign to hotkeys in the customize menu?
Hi Neil, yes all tools are available as shortcuts. (except those that depend on spinners and such) The macroscripts that were in PolyBoost will be found in a category called "PolyTools".

cheers,
CML

Hooch

02-11-2009, 02:14 AM

Wow, it was about time! this is really good news for the max community,
I'm glad to see such a great release, PolyBoost just rocks!
Congratulations to the whole team :thumbsup:

Bobo I still use the script you gave me some years ago,
but I think it's about to get obsolete with this release.

Thanks for such a great work guys, seriously.

P.S. "Give access to the mouse input and modifier key combos..."
... not a bad idea at all... :)

goleafsgo

02-11-2009, 02:21 AM

I usually hate to post stuff that takes away from the point of the thread...but 15 pages in I guess it won't hurt.

I never thought I would do this but I would like to stand up for the ViewCube :) Although I call it by its original name...the View Compass.

I have worked on the view compass in more applications then anybody else and was responsible for it showing up originally in Maya. I also worked on it in ImageStudio, which I think was the first shipping product that had it.

I don't use it at all in Maya so I have no problem with people that turn it off. But it *was* very useful in the applications that it was designed for. ImageStudio only had 1 camera/viewport and there wasn't a full attribute editor or scripting so there was almost no editing of camera parameters at all. You can imagine, in this situation at least, that having something like the view compass was quite handy and easy to use.

Now ImageStudio was built on top Maya so when I ended up on the Maya team it took all of 10 minutes one day to bring it over. After Autodesk bought Alias there was a push for better usability design in general but also specifically to make it easier to jump between the different apps, so a small team was formed to look into things like this. Making the view compass into a component that could be used by all products was one of the first things that was worked on. I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is that ViewCube or steeringWheel or whatever else it is that we are working on are not taking huge resources away from your favourite applications main development team.

Now don't get me started on camera navigation methods...I worked on 3 different applications with Alias and each of them chose different keys for moving the camera around :) I complained to a designer about that one day but I can't remember the reason they gave me for it...

erilaz

02-11-2009, 02:21 AM

Careful, endorsement of Autodesk is generally frowned upon in these forums. Though we may have earned a 1 week grace period due to the max 2010 announcement.

I think you'd have a record number of epidermal layers considering the thick skin you need to face your customers Ken. :)

I don't think it would matter what software we were talking about, there would still be heated arguments, complaining and a smattering of joy and praise. Heck, go and have a look at the Newtek CORE thread! :D

Regardless of what users think of Autodesk as a whole, i'm certainly glad they have people like you to give information and actually have the stamina to dive into the forums to discuss.
Although occasionally the features of software releases from Autodesk are strange and mysterious, there does seem to be more and more of a consistency with customer requests.

There will always be 3 items that will cause you endless pain:
1) If you add new features your customers will whine about stability and workflow.
2) If you focus on stability and workflow, customers will whine about lack of new features.
3) If you focus on both stability/workflow and new features, customers will say there's not enough new content to warrant an upgrade.

And that goes for pretty much every piece of software out there. :)

kenpimentel

02-11-2009, 02:56 AM

Thank you. Those should be rules taught to every Product Manager. I've learned them the hard way and only after many years and grey hairs. Thanks for sharing - you are exactly right!

soulburn3d

02-11-2009, 03:09 AM

Hi Neil, yes all tools are available as shortcuts. (except those that depend on spinners and such) The macroscripts that were in PolyBoost will be found in a category called "PolyTools".

Cool, thanks dude. Can't wait to play with the new tools.

- Neil

davius

02-11-2009, 03:57 AM

I know you all think I'm a terrible tease. But really, we've just gotten started. Eric, Bobo and others can confirm this if they want (without releasing ANY details).

Can't believe there's even more to come! Could you stop teasing and release some more info :D ? Also you could give some confirmation if the undo hotfix will be 2008 compatible? And don't forget the Turbosmooth distorting the UV's! That's a serious problem that always makes me use scrimski's script or Meshsmooth to get around. Do you have some info on that?

And thanks a lot for coming back and answer us in this thread Ken! Your attitude is one to be followed by other product directors.

P.S.: I'm sad that you didn't stick with Bobo's CheckMate name. This - once more - proves he is a gifted guy when coming to give softwares (or scripts) a name! Way to go Bobo!

ThE_JacO

02-11-2009, 04:10 AM

1) If you add new features your customers will whine about stability and workflow.
2) If you focus on stability and workflow, customers will whine about lack of new features.
3) If you add any plugin customers will complain that all the company's been doing is buying out plugins and bolting them on.
4) If you don't buy a popular plugin customers will complain that the company should just avoid bothering with implementation and simply buy the plugin to bolt it on asap.
5) If you focus on both stability/workflow and new features, customers will wonder why this had never happened before and will more happily fork out for subscription

Fixed it for you :)
5 happened maybe three or four times in some 30 or so releases of several softwares I've used over the years. Hardly common enough for statistics to work.

As for the original topic, I'm jealous of polyboost. One of a very, very limited pool of small tools that seems both well designed and implemented end to end.

erilaz

02-11-2009, 04:26 AM

Fixed it for you :)

Ha! Very true. :)

BcM

02-11-2009, 07:36 AM

I'm afraid I must disagree. Not that cg forums are necessarily the best basis for such things, but I can't even start to tell you how many threads people have started asking how to turn these features off. It's always dangerous to make statements like "Everyone agree that...", since there's so much diversity in the cg industry. But the desire to get rid of the viewcube and steering wheel is about as close to unanimous as I've ever seen in my lifetime :)

- Neil

Great minds think alike (or fools seldom differ, its your pick ;))

I must agree with soulburn3d with this one. Here at my work we have about 10 3ds max Licenses, and of all 10 i had to kick out the viewcube.

Nobody i know has problems with navigating through 3d space in 3ds max, because its the easiest thing there is!

Careful, endorsement of Autodesk is generally frowned upon in these forums. Though we may have earned a 1 week grace period due to the max 2010 announcement.

I guess thats just the risk of a major coorperation. Look at Microsoft which gets no sympathy at all either. You can never satisfy all your clients at once.
Perhaps the only way to do it right is to make a giant poll (advertise for it on cgsociety) with like 20 new "feature sets" or "fix sets" for the new 3ds max. Then let the crowd vote which set should get in. *cough*Node based material editor*cough*

I was a bit sceptical about the new max at first, mainly due to the layout. But now Bobo confirmed that the UI is windows-theme dependant i feel much better. The new modelling tools look great, and i think i heard something about undo-bugfix which sounds like the best thing _ever_

Saturn

02-11-2009, 08:06 AM

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f366/MasterZap/vp-gi3.jpg

mr Render vs. viewport....

/Z

Is it a mia_material version for cgfx ? ;)

nahcra

02-11-2009, 10:42 AM

Woooo ........autodesk has doen it again

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-11-2009, 12:48 PM

I know you all think I'm a terrible tease. But really, we've just gotten started. Eric, Bobo and others can confirm this if they want (without releasing ANY details).Yep, Ken, and the team have BIG plans for the future of Max and Design. Unfortunately, we all have to wait and see how it all unfolds, since the exact what, when, where, and how's are typically closely kept development team secrets. So look into the future and hold on to your seats. :)

-Eric

kenpimentel

02-11-2009, 01:43 PM

Also you could give some confirmation if the undo hotfix will be 2008 compatible? And don't forget the Turbosmooth distorting the UV's! That's a serious problem that always makes me use scrimski's script or Meshsmooth to get around. Do you have some info on that?

The undo fix may first show up for 2009, but we're looking at doing 2008 also. I'm trying to get the 2009 out the door by this Friday.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/index?siteID=123112&id=5585571&linkID=9241177

I have no idea about the Turbosmooth situation. Sorry. Log a bug:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5600504&linkID=9241177

The more bugs logged on an issue the higher it climbs the "fix" list.

aaraaf

02-11-2009, 03:39 PM

PixelTricks

02-11-2009, 04:05 PM

I know most people look at AD as a huge monster corporation that doesn't care about its users, but I think this release shows different. I'm excited by this release and I have been using Max since release 3. There are so many things in this release that I can't wait to use. Max and AD both have their problems, but I think some should show some respect for the hard work that they have clearly put into this release.

So you don't like the viewcube, nobody is making you use it, turn it off.
Sheesh, They could deliver the copy to your door with chocolate and flowers, install it for you and then train you in person on the new features and some of you would still bitch and complain. Nobody is forcing you to use Max, it must be doing something right if you are still using it.

kees

02-11-2009, 04:31 PM

So you don't like the viewcube, nobody is making you use it, turn it off.
Sheesh

I think we can leave the viewcube behind now, but it really wasn't about the fact that they added a viewCube and forced people to use it.

It was about the fact there was little else in the release worth while (for many) and that caused people to be disappointing that Autodesk was selling the viewCube as if it was something we should be excited about.

Most (not all) experienced users of 3dsMax, who loyally pay their subscription fees really do not need it. While the viewCube might be useful for new users, they are not the once paying subscription.

So I can see why it caused a general sense of disappointment.
Even if you like it, it is not really something to be THAT excited as a key feature for a whole new release of 3dsMax, imo.

The viewcube also broke some functionality that was previously possible in 3dsMax, i.e. viewport Anti-Aliasing. And lets not pretend that is not important, because it is one of the feature Autodesk is now proudly showing of.

Anyway, it is behind us now. We have AA back and better then before and many new features worth while to experienced users.

sheesh! :)

Bobo

02-11-2009, 05:51 PM

Eric, Bobo and others can confirm this if they want (without releasing ANY details).

I will take this opportunity to say just this:
"You aint' seen nothing yet!"

Cygnusrk727

02-11-2009, 07:00 PM

BcM

02-11-2009, 07:02 PM

I will take this opportunity to say just this:
"You aint' seen nothing yet!"

Then give me a wee hint about Maxscript! Are Bulgarians finally HumanBeing or Dog!? Questions Questions!

Cheesestraws

02-11-2009, 07:17 PM

I loved the View Compass in Maya. It didn't seem to dominate the screen as much or be as distracting as the View Cube. Any chance to bring the compass back as a click on option?

You can set the size and opacity of the viewcube, I have mine set to very small and only visible when I move my mouse over the area the viewcube is.

Cygnusrk727

02-11-2009, 07:40 PM

You can set the size and opacity of the viewcube, I have mine set to very small and only visible when I move my mouse over the area the viewcube is.

That is how I use the View Cube currently(when I do use it). It's hard to explain if you haven't seen it. But the View Compass was IMO a much simpler and useful implementation then the view cube. It seemed much quicker to use as the side views were orthographic instead of a perspective view.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.gamedev.net/features/reviews/maya7/Figure1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gamedev.net/features/reviews/productreview.asp%3Fproductid%3D590&usg=__qBXghRV6wm07wC_iEpbmuwDmK3U=&h=73&w=79&sz=3&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=sew5RGaNKhrFPM:&tbnh=67&tbnw=73&prev=/images%3Fq%3DView%2BCompass%2Bin%2BMaya%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN

Strob

02-11-2009, 07:42 PM

Then give me a wee hint about Maxscript! Are Bulgarians finally HumanBeing or Dog!? Questions Questions!

:applause: My god I had no idea what you were talking about! Until I realize the inside joke by looking inside the maxscript help!

By the way, will there be any new scripting tools in max 2010 like some bulgarian snakes or something?

Cheesestraws

02-11-2009, 07:45 PM

That is how I use the View Cube currently(when I do use it). It's hard to explain if you haven't seen it. But the View Compass was IMO a much simpler and useful implementation then the view cube. It seemed much quicker to use as the side views were orthographic instead of a perspective view.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://images.gamedev.net/features/reviews/maya7/Figure1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.gamedev.net/features/reviews/productreview.asp%3Fproductid%3D590&usg=__qBXghRV6wm07wC_iEpbmuwDmK3U=&h=73&w=79&sz=3&hl=en&start=16&um=1&tbnid=sew5RGaNKhrFPM:&tbnh=67&tbnw=73&prev=/images%3Fq%3DView%2BCompass%2Bin%2BMaya%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dsafari%26rls%3Den%26sa%3DN

I do agree that orthographic views would be preferable, but this is getting off topic so I will just end this with a real life viewcube from Autodesk Labs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5QNLLsT_WI&feature=channel_page

goleafsgo

02-11-2009, 07:52 PM

You can set the size and opacity of the viewcube, I have mine set to very small and only visible when I move my mouse over the area the viewcube is.
I like to change the settings one of the demo machines here so that the cube is huge and set it's opacity to 0. The thing is invisible until you move near it and then it takes up half your viewport.

I don't think that there is any chance of getting the compass back, but the people who are in charge of the cube would probably be open to putting back in anything that people are missing.

PiXeL_MoNKeY

02-11-2009, 08:30 PM

I like to change the settings one of the demo machines here so that the cube is huge and set it's opacity to 0. The thing is invisible until you move near it and then it takes up half your viewport.That just sounds like an evil joke to play. I'll add that to the list of in office humor it currently includes screen grabbing the desktop, set that as desktop image and hiding all the icons and task bar. There are also the wonderful BSOD screensavers. :applause:

-Eric

Bobo

02-11-2009, 08:32 PM

:applause: My god I had no idea what you were talking about! Until I realize the inside joke by looking inside the maxscript help!

By the way, will there be any new scripting tools in max 2010 like some bulgarian snakes or something?

Glad you like the joke! :)

If you mean example scripts inside the help, the tool I used in the Viewport presentation video on Ken's page for example is actually an example from the help (since half of the features like Indirect Illumination, Area Lights and DOF are not exposed directly to the UI yet.) There are other useful code snippets and full tools like the xView coding example (4 parts How To... tutorial) which does face area checking with tons of options.

If you mean new stuff in MAXScript itself, the list is long but there are no groundbreaking features except for the exposure of all that is new in 2010 anyway (and there is A LOT more new stuff under the hood than the press release cares to mention).

BcM

02-11-2009, 08:32 PM

That just sounds like an evil joke to play. I'll add that to the list of in office humor it currently includes screen grabbing the desktop, set that as desktop image and hiding all the icons and task bar. There are also the wonderful BSOD screensavers. :applause:

-Eric

My favorite is screen grabbing the Autodesk Crash Report screen, then minimizing max and putting that as background. Priceless when someone just started rendering!

MickyG

02-11-2009, 09:33 PM

I must be one of the few that have never really encountered serious bugs in the software... generally everything always works as it should so I can't complain.

I actually love the fact that plugins become standard in the software. I can't justify purchasing certain things to my company so it's always exciting when I find out I'll be getting them for free in the next update!

Apart from Box#1 - that one I purchased and then a few weeks later it was intergrated into Max... but you take the good with the bad, and on the whole it's always good.

goleafsgo

02-11-2009, 11:01 PM

That just sounds like an evil joke to play. I'll add that to the list of in office humor it currently includes screen grabbing the desktop, set that as desktop image and hiding all the icons and task bar. There are also the wonderful BSOD screensavers. :applause:

-Eric
It works best on the one demo machine that we have hooked up to a projector because it has to run at a pretty low resolution so the cube literally takes half the viewport :-)

davius

02-11-2009, 11:58 PM

The undo fix may first show up for 2009, but we're looking at doing 2008 also. I'm trying to get the 2009 out the door by this Friday.
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/ps/index?siteID=123112&id=5585571&linkID=9241177

I have no idea about the Turbosmooth situation. Sorry. Log a bug:
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/item?siteID=123112&id=5600504&linkID=9241177

The more bugs logged on an issue the higher it climbs the "fix" list.

Good to known the 2008 hotfix version will be looked!

About the Turbosmooth issue, this thread (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=6&t=453214&page=1&pp=15) shows examples of it. I submitted a bug report back then but wonder if it went high enough to get any attention. Maybe people just went on using meshsmooth.